Author Topic: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain  (Read 428413 times)

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #360 on: September 4, 2017, 12:52:58 PM »
The significance of a talented player nurtured under Wenger that decides they'd rather join their rivals for less money because they want to develop under Klopp and play for Liverpool, shouldn't be underestimated.
This is a massive blow for Arsenal. Sure, they haven't become our feeder club because of one transfer, but they were unable to persuade one of their key players from staying put, such was his faith in our project and lack of faith in theirs. And this is a team that has won 3 FA Cups in 4 seasons, yet still, he believed in our project, Klopp's vision, and Klopp's ability to bring the best out of him, above and beyond what Arsenal and Wenger could offer.

Apart from his clear qualities, his desire to join us even if it took a paycut is admirable. He has ambitions for himself, as a player, and for his club.
Can't wait to see him play for us. I think he's going to have a significant impact for us. Maybe a step below Mane and Coutinho, but next in line.

I remember when Klopp signed predicting this would happen. From the outside looking in what young footballers wouldn't want to be part of that Dortmund project? Have a coach that motivates his players like that. Appears warm and approachable and yet extremely discipline oriented at the same time.

Dortmund never really had the financial muscle to turn his lure into something huge. They were always going to be behind Bayern in that regard. It looks and feels like this time it will be different for him.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #361 on: September 4, 2017, 01:56:38 PM »
Agree.
I wonder whether the strong Liverpool contingent in the England squad may have also been a factor. Probably relates more to them than a predominantly foreign contingent found in the Arsenal change room. Clyne, Sturridge, Henderson, Llalana, Solanke, Trent- Alexander, Milner, Gomez, Ejara, . Add other British players in Robertson, Woodburn, Flanagan, Ward, Ings, Wilson.
Compare that list to Arsenal's British contingent- Holding, Ramsey, Wishere, Walcott, Welbeck, Niles, Akpom and Jenkinson. Probably improved his French in their change room.

Thankfully the Owl is no longer in charge of ruining our players when they are on international duty!
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline KeyWestRed

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #362 on: September 4, 2017, 09:18:02 PM »
He looks like proper shite tonight against Slovakia, although I am sure some nubbin will produce a heat map or some  zini coefficient that argues otherwise. Hopefully Klopp can get in him a bit, as of now he looks dire. And not nearly enough technical nous to play in CM. I like Chambo but the lad is wayward.

Offline koppper

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #363 on: September 4, 2017, 09:28:47 PM »
I expect that one of the first things Klopp will do is get him to lose a lot of that upper body muscle - at the moment, he's built like a boxer not a footballer. That will really help his mobility.
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Offline robgomm

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #364 on: September 4, 2017, 09:30:52 PM »
He's playing for England, it counts for next to nought.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #365 on: September 4, 2017, 09:40:00 PM »
He looks like proper shite tonight against Slovakia, although I am sure some nubbin will produce a heat map or some  zini coefficient that argues otherwise. Hopefully Klopp can get in him a bit, as of now he looks dire. And not nearly enough technical nous to play in CM. I like Chambo but the lad is wayward.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #366 on: September 4, 2017, 10:02:16 PM »
Still don't see what Klopp seen in spending £40m on a lad that we could got on a bosman .


Strange .

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #367 on: September 4, 2017, 10:03:27 PM »
He's playing for England, it counts for next to nought.

Still should be playing well , England or not.


Really going to be interesting what Klopp has in mind ?

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #368 on: September 4, 2017, 11:48:46 PM »
The problem with stats / charts is the complete lack of context.

16.47259 dribbles per game. So what? If you habitually run into dead ends and give the ball away, that's a minus point, not a plus. Not saying that AOC does that, just pointing out the inherent weakness in the "data".

Digger's wizardry against Brazil was still only one dribble , and that miss by Geoff Thomas would have got him a couple of nice coloured segments on a radar graph, but the daft c*nt still couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo.

Also, there's no adjustment for the colleagues players play with. Saw the stick that Barclay got earlier in the thread, but its comparing apples with eggs.

If you play Everton, Barclay is just about the only one with any passing ability. So opponents can concentrate on him, and hence affect his stats disproportionately - there's mention of this actually being done by us with respect to cutting off the supply to Lukaku.

If you are at Arsenal, however, the team carries a much more widespread and potent attacking threat [well, usually  ;D] and so individual players should find themselves with a bit more time and room than if you are a one man midfield, and so their individual stats should benefit as a result.

There's also the factor that playing next to better players should mean you receive the ball in better areas, for instance in a one on one against their weakest defender, and so be more able to affect the game and improve stats as a result.

Also, have a look at Mane's contribution to Salah's goal against Arsenal last week. Ran the length of the pitch at top speed, just to block off 2 defenders from being able to make a challenge on the man going through. It was intelligent, insightful and industrious football. And no stats system in the world would have given him a single credit point for it.

I'd bet that in a load of the games that Gerrard carried us single handedly, his stats would be inferior to those of Lampard, playing in an all conquering Chelsea team, with much more able footballing colleagues. But I still know who I rate as the better player.

And finally, unless two players are playing in exactly the same position, in exactly the same type of tactical system, then any attempt to compare them based on stats is doomed to failure, because of the inherent differences in the way they are required to operate.

So in my humble opinion, it doesn't necessarily make you a better player, just because some nerd at OPTA happens to colour in a bit more of a dartboard for one player than another.

I've got not axe to grind with AOC, nor am I a fan of Barclay, but its dangerous to place too much faith in this sort of stuff.

I much prefer to rely on my own view of a game at the time i watch it, rather than form an opinion later, based on stats and graphs.

Hmm I thought player x  was shite and did fuck all, but now I see that he carried the ball 17.625 times, and dribbled it 14.2% more than the mean standard deviation of Mourinho's knob, I realise I must be wrong, and he is, in fact, the new Messi.

Don't mean to be facetious, or denigrate the detailed OP, but this stats and graphs lark just isn't for me. Would be really interested to see how players of old would have fared under this type of analysis.

As for AOC, £35m odd for an attacker who doesn't score is utter madness, but that's the market we are in. I'm generally underwhelmed, as I rate him as an average player, but I trust Klopp's judgement more than my own, and I'd love nothing more that see the lad blossom and succeed.

Best of luck to him.








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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #369 on: September 4, 2017, 11:56:07 PM »
You've just denigrated Babu's OP to "This isn't for me" and " I don't get it" lark. 

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #370 on: September 4, 2017, 11:59:41 PM »
Every club in the world uses stats and bases future projections and figures like the ones in the OP to get a player or improve a players game.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #371 on: September 5, 2017, 02:07:21 AM »
The problem with stats / charts is the complete lack of context.
Which is why everybody in analytics know that their job is to identify players for scouting, or apply context to reports from scouts in terms of an overall picture. e.g. if a player scores a hatrick in the 3 games the scout sees, is a a 100+ goals a season player? Nobody, ever, has suggested stats are used in isolation, or videos. However for some strange reason, the opinion of one person of a small sample size of games which has no verifiability whatsoever is frequently recommended as the best data.

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16.47259 dribbles per game. So what? If you habitually run into dead ends and give the ball away, that's a minus point, not a plus. Not saying that AOC does that, just pointing out the inherent weakness in the "data".
But then we can look at video (provided and further can be sources) to see what areas he makes his dribbles in. We can also see how often per game he is dispossed of the ball (provided in radar) which shows AoC both completes an elite number of dribbles in his position and rarely gives it away compared to all players in his position for which there is data. This suggests he is a very high proficiency dribbler rather than the player you described. But again, nobody makes those judgements on stats, it's a scouting note to be verified.

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Digger's wizardry against Brazil was still only one dribble , and that miss by Geoff Thomas would have got him a couple of nice coloured segments on a radar graph, but the daft c*nt still couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo.
Actually it would be counted as 1 successful dribble for every player he beats. However we also never use 1 stat in isolation either because it's an incomplete picture. Things like 'packing' is used. This is how many opposition players are eliminated with a dribble, pass, or off the ball run. Then there is xg chain. This is to give a value to each action based on how much it attributes to a goal scoring chance. So touching the ball to Coutinho would have maybe 0,001. Coutinho carrying the ball 40 yards, beating 3 players and playing a throughball between CB and FB into the box for an overlapping runner Moreno would have 0,350. Moreno cutting the ball back to someone Firmino on the edge of the box unmarked would be valued at say 0,12. Firmino shoots and scored. Each action if given a value based on how much each player contributd to the goal. Or any meaningful attack. This then gives a picture of how much a players actions impact on the attacking play of their team.

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Also, there's no adjustment for the colleagues players play with. Saw the stick that Barclay got earlier in the thread, but its comparing apples with eggs.

If you play Everton, Barclay is just about the only one with any passing ability. So opponents can concentrate on him, and hence affect his stats disproportionately - there's mention of this actually being done by us with respect to cutting off the supply to Lukaku.
Not true. That would be tactical naive to concentrate on one player because then you are just creating overloads elsewhere on the pitch. Even the worst premier league midfielders would take advantage of overloads if you just give them up. Tell me tactically how that works? Give me an example of one game what that happened with Barkley. And this is the problem with using "my eyes" as your source of all information. People are the worst in terms seeing, interpreting, recording, storing and recalling information. I can provide you with plenty of sources on why they are unreliable if you wish?

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If you are at Arsenal, however, the team carries a much more widespread and potent attacking threat [well, usually  ;D] and so individual players should find themselves with a bit more time and room than if you are a one man midfield, and so their individual stats should benefit as a result.
There is more assumptions here than I even know where to begin. Do teams play the same tactics against Everton and Arsenal? Have you seen those teams give more space and time to Arsenal? Examples of when? Did Jeffers stats improve when he moved from Everton to Arsenal? How about Rodwell when he moved to Man City? How about Downing when he moved to Liverpool? I can go on. But once again your statement doesn't stand up to the smallest amount of scrutiny. Underlying numbers for all those players had big red warning flags.

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There's also the factor that playing next to better players should mean you receive the ball in better areas, for instance in a one on one against their weakest defender, and so be more able to affect the game and improve stats as a result.
Stats aren't used to compare every player to Messi. They have predictive modelling attached too. What does a highly creative mid table player look like? Also xgchain as I showed above will show you players who are highly involved in their teams, or are the crucial players in their sides attacks and yet don't have high end product due to the weakness of the team.

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Also, have a look at Mane's contribution to Salah's goal against Arsenal last week. Ran the length of the pitch at top speed, just to block off 2 defenders from being able to make a challenge on the man going through. It was intelligent, insightful and industrious football. And no stats system in the world would have given him a single credit point for it.
He would be credited with distance run and sprints at the moment. Outside of public availability though, they were (and possibly now have at elite club level) mapping that shows the involvement of all players in relation to a goal. I demonstrated elsewhere this transfer window Ronaldo's involvement for James' equaliser against Real Madrid. The data shows him moving from near post to far post, taking Pique with him. James attacks that space and scores an easy goal. Now if they have the data for that, can map that out in a sort of football manager 2d pitch and can apply an xg chain value to it, you now have that number you are searching for. As this isn't publicly available I don't have it. Clubs do have the data though and it's safe to assume if they can make a demonstration with it, they can use it because if not, doing a demonstrating is stupid as it shows competitors something you are building to give you an advantage. Therefore I assume they are doing demonstrations knowing elite clubs have the same data and aware most if not all are working on or have the same analytics working on it.

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I'd bet that in a load of the games that Gerrard carried us single handedly, his stats would be inferior to those of Lampard, playing in an all conquering Chelsea team, with much more able footballing colleagues. But I still know who I rate as the better player.
Make up data that you assume exists. Then argue against it. Brilliant approach to a debate. Doesn't really stand up to much scrutiny though because, as with literally everything else you have said, you have provided literally nothing at all for others to test or verify. You entire body of evidence is "what I saw once".

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And finally, unless two players are playing in exactly the same position, in exactly the same type of tactical system, then any attempt to compare them based on stats is doomed to failure, because of the inherent differences in the way they are required to operate.
Not true either. You can compare the actions they take and compare them to the same actions others take. Shot maps for forwards. It shows you their shot selection. Whether they are running hot or cold. This can allow you to avoid a forward who just had a very purple season and is likely a one season wonder. Or show you a player who usually scores well who had a dip yet his underlying numbers remained high. Or a goalkeepers who save a high ratio of difficult shots.

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So in my humble opinion, it doesn't necessarily make you a better player, just because some nerd at OPTA happens to colour in a bit more of a dartboard for one player than another.
Clearly showing absolutely no knowledge of how it works yet has an opinion on it.

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I've got not axe to grind with AOC, nor am I a fan of Barclay, but its dangerous to place too much faith in this sort of stuff.
Which nobody who works in analytics does in isolation, as explained at the start.

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I much prefer to rely on my own view of a game at the time i watch it, rather than form an opinion later, based on stats and graphs.
Interesting experiment. Put your own view under the same level of scrutiny. Explain why your own view of a game is superior. For example - how many games do you watch per week. How many times have you see AoC play? And Barkley? And every other attacking midfielder in the league? And in the top 5 leagues? How do they compare? How good is your eyesight? Have you ever been distracted in your life? How good is your memory? Ever been sure you saw something but hadn't. Ever confused two players on the pitch? Do you have a favourite player? Any players you don't like? Do you believe your judgement could be affected by any biases? Ever misplaced something like your keys? Etc etc. If you want to put forward yourself as a source rather than all available data and video that exists on players then you need to stand up to scrutiny better than data for every game played and video of the players in those games.

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Hmm I thought player x  was shite and did fuck all, but now I see that he carried the ball 17.625 times, and dribbled it 14.2% more than the mean standard deviation of Mourinho's knob, I realise I must be wrong, and he is, in fact, the new Messi.
#strawman

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Don't mean to be facetious
Yes you do
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or denigrate the detailed OP
Yes you do
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but this stats and graphs lark just isn't for me. Would be really interested to see how players of old would have fared under this type of analysis.
This whole earth is round lark just isn't for me. iPhones will never catch on. Big screen, no keypad.

All new ideas are initially rejected. It's just the way the world is. As a race, we love the concept of creativity and extol the virtues of being creative, but the way we’re wired precludes us from fully embracing new ideas. Once we make an opinion on something, we don't like it to be challenged. It's stressful for us. So anything that could possible attack those opinions is routinely dismissed out of hand. The entire footballing world is increasingly using analytics in more and more ways every day. So either your list of concerns have never been thought of by any person in football, they have and have been dismissed as confused ramblings of someone who doesn't understand how analytics works among other things, or you are are wrong. But it HAS to be one of those 3 options. Because all clubs would not be pumping millions into it and allowing it to drive all their major footballing decisions if they had no value.

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As for AOC, £35m odd for an attacker who doesn't score is utter madness, but that's the market we are in. I'm generally underwhelmed, as I rate him as an average player, but I trust Klopp's judgement more than my own, and I'd love nothing more that see the lad blossom and succeed.
Finally we get to the crux of your whole argument. Quite simply, this information doesn't agree with my own formed opinion. I cannot possibly be wrong. Therefore the information is wrong.

Scientists set out to prove their theories wrong. To use anything and everything to prove what they believe to be true to be wrong. They challenge others to do so also. This is because a theory or opinion is only as strong as it is verifiable. If you have literally no evidence whatsoever to support something you state to believe to be true, then it doesn't hold much weight with anybody else as an argument. Of course there are expert opinion - However you haven't demonstrated any higher level of knowledge of the subject area than a lay person. Plus an expert opinion is one in which the expert keeps their own personal feelings out of their conclusions. They look at the facts as they see them, and draw a conclusion based only on those facts. They also tend not to create strawmen, exaggerate or talk at length about Mourinho's cock.

You seem to be taking the exact opposite approach of avoiding testing your opinion at all. Rejecting anything that contradicts your already held opinion and providing nothing whatsoever to support said opinion.

I have said it before but this is literally the exact approach flat earthers take in their approach to the debate of whether the earth is round or not. Dismiss anything that suggests it's round, insist they have never seen the curve with their own eyes, provide nothing of substance themselves. Show no real understanding of what they are dismissing yet feel somehow qualified to do so. Best of all, fail to understand how accurate predictions can be made based on a system that they claim to be bullshit.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #372 on: September 5, 2017, 02:24:09 AM »
If you listen closely, you can hear the sound of a microphone being dropped.
Then in the midddle out pops a smiling glen johnson pulling up his jersey to reveal a t-shirt of suarez with a text saying. "OUR SUAREZ IS A FRIEND TO ALL COLOURS!"

Offline Chakan

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #373 on: September 5, 2017, 04:32:20 AM »
Only me, do you like apples?
« Last Edit: September 5, 2017, 04:46:02 AM by Chakan »

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #374 on: September 5, 2017, 06:57:29 AM »
You mean the earth isn't flat?
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

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Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #375 on: September 5, 2017, 07:39:28 AM »
Thanks Babu for taking the time and having the patience to deconstruct a post that is, in fact, a neat example of the kind of thinking that led to both Brexit and the Orange one becoming POTUS.
« Last Edit: September 5, 2017, 09:27:11 AM by Rush 82 »

Offline nico 8

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #376 on: September 5, 2017, 07:44:53 AM »
On the "Only me v BabuYagu "debate'. Good and measured response.
No doubt Klopp is impressed with AOC. Said so when he first saw him with the naked eye and is presumably more convinced by the facts and figures provided. I did not watch England's game last night but by all accounts his performance has been criticized. The fact that Klopp paid GBP 35m for AOC, a player with one year left on his contract, would seem a great risk. He clearly believes that he can take AOC's game to the next level which should be exciting to us fans and beneficial to the club. As always, there is always a risk in any transfer but the fact that he has brought him now at that price rather than wait 12 months is a clear message that we can expect big things from AOC. AOC  is only 23 years old and all aspects of his game shall improve. His end product both in terms of goals and crossing will improve. I remind the board how Coutinho used to be slated for his inability to hit the target. When Ronaldo first joined Man Utd, his crossing was poor. Too often, we expect the end product right away and fail to realize that growth is required in all facets of the game. Tactical and positional awareness gets honed and improved upon over time. The level of Mane and Llalana in a red shirt has been a joy to watch.
It can be that AOC fails and the argument may be that the"naked eye' was correct. There may however be numerous factors for such failure outside of football. As stated, the stats give an indication and supports the naked eye but cannot be viewed in isolation as to it's success rate. It presumably assists in assessing risk.
Too often, especially the older generation of which I include myself, are to slow to embrace technology and are afraid of change. Those who don't embrace it, get left behind.
« Last Edit: September 5, 2017, 07:51:11 AM by nico 8 »

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #377 on: September 5, 2017, 10:17:16 AM »
Stats can mean a lot less than what people portray them.

Anyone who has actually watched the bloke for the last six years knows his end product has been largely shit.

He needs a lot of coaching to justify his price tag. However I know Klopp is the one who can maybe do it.

That's not to say stats are useless, but stats should be used as well as first sight. And all I know is from what I have seen in the past he is wasteful. Arsenal fans who have watched him week in week out agree

You can probably make stats that make it so shit can turn to gold and it's hard to argue again. In reality though if you actually saw the gold in first person, you will see that is it is indeed actually still shit.

And don't get me wrong, he isn't shit.

« Last Edit: September 5, 2017, 10:22:24 AM by stevensr123 »
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #378 on: September 5, 2017, 10:22:50 AM »
Snip
Fair play buddy. I'd have probably just told him and KeyWestRed they were both fucking shite, that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it!
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Offline Keita Success

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #379 on: September 5, 2017, 10:25:55 AM »
Having watched him yesterday, it's difficult not be underwhelmed.

That's not to say that there isn't a player in there, there obviously is, but there's something not quite there for him at the moment. Decision making, final ball, losing it in silly places are all traits that he's shown at Arsenal and for England. The good thing is that he clearly does have raw ability, and at 24, it should be relatively easy for Klopp to draw it out.

You can see from his dribbling that he's always looking to create things, but if he wants to be a cantremid, he has to learn when to release, when to push up, when to press. It's something that Lallana does so spectacularly well - England missed him last night. I'm certainly not going to judge him on what was, in effect, a 442 with two holding midfielders (until later in the game), in one of the least inspiring England teams that I've ever seen.

Though, Oxo Cube definitely need a Klopp conversion clause.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #380 on: September 5, 2017, 10:33:39 AM »
He's definitely not an inverted winger. His crossing is much better when he is on the run - be it when running with the ball or arriving onto it - than when he cuts inside, and I'd say his shooting is also much more proficient when he blasts the ball across goal (or at the near post) than cutting inside and finessing it across goal a la Phil.

I think Klopp has mainly purchased him as cover for Lallana in the right-sided 8 role and Salah in the right-wing role. Klopp very much sees football in zones IMO; if you imagine Coutinho as covering the left-side of the pitch, be it from central midfield or the wing, then I think (and hope) he sees Oxlade covering the right side from either position.

He had a poor game last night but one thing he did still do very well was plug gaps. Sterling is clearly the more talented footballer but there's a reason Southgate chose Oxlade ahead of him last night and it's because he's more disciplined defensively. Starting Rashford and Sterling in a 4-4-2 would have been suicide.

I know Wijnaldum tends to play to the left but I can easily envisage a scenario where he plays against City on the Saturday - the type of game where his physicality and quick transition play thrives - and Oxlade comes in for him against Stoke at home on the Wednesday to provide more attacking thrust.
« Last Edit: September 5, 2017, 10:35:35 AM by LallanaInPyjamas »
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #381 on: September 5, 2017, 11:35:47 AM »
Can't judge a player based on how he does for England. Southgate is an average manager at best. Klopp will develop him and he'll be really good for us, much the same way that he developed Lallana.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #382 on: September 5, 2017, 12:17:51 PM »
I eagerly await Only Me's measured response

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #383 on: September 5, 2017, 12:30:58 PM »
First half he showed why people question him, second half he showed a lot more of why Klopp thinks he could be useful IMO. Really needs to sharpen his decision making up though, or was that just the England Voodoo? Either way if he's to play central he would need to sharpen his passing and composure i would think.

Looking forward to this project. Still at 40m, think we overpaid a fair bit regardless of the inflated market. With 2 or 3 yrs on his contract is someone going to tell me he's worth 50/60/70 million???

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #384 on: September 5, 2017, 12:36:19 PM »
None should ever judge a player on an England performance.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #385 on: September 5, 2017, 12:38:59 PM »
He looks like proper shite tonight against Slovakia, although I am sure some nubbin will produce a heat map or some  zini coefficient that argues otherwise. Hopefully Klopp can get in him a bit, as of now he looks dire. And not nearly enough technical nous to play in CM. I like Chambo but the lad is wayward.
I'm Northern Irish so rarely watch England games.

I remember as a kid taking a lot lot shite from Mancs over the performances of Robbie Fowler for England which was hard to listen to because firstly, I'd not seen the game and had to just accept their version of events to be true (and the numbers backed them up). I also didn't have the knowledge I do now to put some perspective on the matter or understand it's relevancy.

What I do know, for example, was that based purely on my viewing of International Football, David Healy was absolutely world class. In 2008 he was wrecking teams on the path to qualifying for the European Championships. He had the likes of Sammy Clingan as a main creative force when they faced Spain. He scored a sublime hattrick that night while Johnny Evans kept Fernando Torres in his pocket the whole night. How a forward with the likes of Xavi and Iniesta supplying him against a side like Northern Ireland could look so lost is beyond me. Anybody who saw that match will tell you Liverpool missed a trick signing Torres over David Healy who went on to finish top scorer in the Euro qualifiers despite his side not even qualifying.

Even now, I would strongly contest the idea that any other forward in world football would have scored more goals in that Northern Ireland team than he did. The average level of that side was League One at best taking on a side many debate whether it was better or not than the classic Brazilian sides. On that viewing, clearly not although Northern Ireland arguably were. I assume it's only agenda that sees them regularly left out of that particular conversation.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/yR77Pr_7vts" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/yR77Pr_7vts</a>

And I am sure right now you are wondering what the fuck the point is in all I just said above so I will explain.

- I cannot comment on his performance in that one England game which amount to precisely 0,00552% of the football he has played in his professional career so far. As mentioned before, it amounts to taking a cup of water from the ocean and saying "Look there are no whales in the ocean".
- International football can be misleading as a barometer for judging players for a myriad of reasons.
- In any discussion, you can only speak of things you have knowledge on. As a non-Arsenal, non-England fan - my entire viewing of AoC may be around 10 games of data. Or say <1000 minutes. His entire career is 15,000+ minutes. Still a VERY small sample size of data.
- This is where data & videos come in. They fill in the knowledge gaps we all have given that most if not all of us don't watch every game of football that is ever played.
- Also human beings are the worst at receiving, interpreting and storing information.

Here is a simple example on that last one:-
"Moreno closing down the goalkeeper cost us a goal against Hoffenheim" was said recently by someone on here. Except it didn't, it ultimately resulted in a penalty at the end of that passage of play, which was then subsequently saved. Also it implies it was the direct cause when in reality Moreno was counter pressing after an attack broke down. Our players are instructed to do this. The nearest to the ball carrier closes him down while the rest reset into our defensive shape or support the counter press. Failure to do this properly makes us open to counter attacks as there would be no pressure on the ball and a very high defensive line. Therefore we press to avoid accurate long passes for fast strikers to break through our defensive line. We also instruct players to plug in more dangerous areas for those counter pressing. In this example, Emre Can who was located at left back when Moreno pressed should have stayed there while Firmino would drop into midfield leaving Moreno as striker. This EXACT scenario happened again in the second league and this is exactly how we reacted to it with (I think) Milner dropping in for Moreno while he played striker for a minute. We also saw the same against Palace with Robertson pressing high and Milner tucked in behind him. However in this one passage of play, Emre decided to walk from LB where he was marking someone, to center midfield where he was marking nobody. The long rushed clearance from the keeper resulted in an aerial dual with Henderson which he lost. Was flicked out to the player Emre was marking just seconds before. Under no pressure, he played a ball through our high backline into space for Gnabry to collect, run at Lovren and win a penalty.

So in that example - the information was poorly received due to bias, poorly interpreted due to a lack of understanding of our tactical instructions in that situation & more bias, then poorly recalled because the human brain tends to garble everything together. The person didn't want to critique Emre as he likes Emre. Therefore his point of fault shifts until landing on someone he feels comfortable critiquing. Or he didn't even notice Emre's fault at all. Either way it really doesn't matter - the end result is the same. Eye witness statements are the lowest form of evidence and almost entirely unreliable without anything tangible supporting them.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #386 on: September 5, 2017, 12:51:05 PM »
I'm Northern Irish enjoy football so rarely watch England games.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #387 on: September 5, 2017, 12:53:31 PM »
People judging players on England games. Come on folks.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #389 on: September 5, 2017, 01:02:00 PM »
On the "Only me v BabuYagu "debate'. Good and measured response.
No doubt Klopp is impressed with AOC. Said so when he first saw him with the naked eye and is presumably more convinced by the facts and figures provided. I did not watch England's game last night but by all accounts his performance has been criticized. The fact that Klopp paid GBP 35m for AOC, a player with one year left on his contract, would seem a great risk. He clearly believes that he can take AOC's game to the next level which should be exciting to us fans and beneficial to the club. As always, there is always a risk in any transfer but the fact that he has brought him now at that price rather than wait 12 months is a clear message that we can expect big things from AOC. AOC  is only 23 years old and all aspects of his game shall improve. His end product both in terms of goals and crossing will improve. I remind the board how Coutinho used to be slated for his inability to hit the target. When Ronaldo first joined Man Utd, his crossing was poor. Too often, we expect the end product right away and fail to realize that growth is required in all facets of the game. Tactical and positional awareness gets honed and improved upon over time. The level of Mane and Llalana in a red shirt has been a joy to watch.
It can be that AOC fails and the argument may be that the"naked eye' was correct. There may however be numerous factors for such failure outside of football. As stated, the stats give an indication and supports the naked eye but cannot be viewed in isolation as to it's success rate. It presumably assists in assessing risk.
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Good post mate.

Focusing just on goals, I personally think AoC will never be a goalscorer. By which I mean someone who will put away chances at or above the rate expected. I could be totally wrong of course and it's certainly something that can improve with coaching. Most importantly though, I don't even think it needs to improve.

The 4 key elements to a midfield is:-
  • Protect the defence
  • Link Play
  • Create
  • Support the attack
There are specialists e.g. #1-Kante, #2-Xabi, #3-Ozil, #4-Alli. These players are World Class at one particular part of the job in midfield and will need others around them to provide the rest. Xabi was usually too deep to create, for example, and yet was criticised regularly for his lack of assists. Ozil is regularly criticised for his shooting. Nobody criticises midfielders who score goals, for example, but when you assess Alli's all round game as a non-forward, he is average at best in all the other aspects of being a midfielder. Does it matter though? He scores a fucktonne of goals?

Well, every team will collapse if they are unable to do those things. Against Sevilla, we collapsed in the second half due to the failure of Milner & Can to provide #2. Against Palace, our midfield struggled with both #2 & #3 which saw us go around them on the left with every attack. England's Gerrard-Lampard midfield due to an absence of #1.

The beauty of Rafa's midfield was that it did all those tasks at a worldclass level due to specialists. However, due to the differences between how Klopp and Rafa see the game of football, Klopp tends to avoid specialists although clearly some players excel in some areas more than others. Gini Wijnaldum, for example, makes late runs and gets into scoring positions that most strikers would be proud of. His finishing of those chances is also consistently above expected averages.

So what does AoC do in our midfield that would make him useful? AoC links play and creates in our midfield at a level only Coutinho & Lallana could match or better at the moment. He is also putting up decent numbers defensively, but this could be misleading as he is a wing back at the moment. He also offers pace to stretch teams vertically in the absence of Salah & Mane.

So to going back to that Sevilla game, did we need a player in midfield that day who could score us a goal? Would Alli instead of Can made the difference? Or did we need someone who could connect our front 4 with the rest of the side? Someone who could turn through the Sevilla press, get behind their defensive line and expose their defensive line that was now high up the pitch. But neither Can, Milner or Henderson offer that to us. Gini is probably the best at that but it isn't his natural game.

For me, for AoC to succeed he doesn't need to start scoring more, just needs to make sure we never have another game like that Sevilla one while he is on the pitch. Or like that Palace game where we couldn't complete a pass into zone 14 all game. That is what our midfield is missing right now and he needs to provide it.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #390 on: September 5, 2017, 01:06:49 PM »

;D  ;D I laughed so hard at that. But yes. When you are able to may the highest salary in international football to a manager and your last 3 names are Hodgson, Allardyce & Southgate, either you don't understand football on the most basic of levels, have an agenda driving decisions outside of football, or are a fucking idiot, when those 3 names come out on top.

I fully expect Tim Sherwood to get it next. I joke of course, and laugh as I saw it yet at the same time wouldn't even be remotely surprised if it happened. The England National Team is an absolute cluster fuck which has resulted in players being tactically left behind by their rivals.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #391 on: September 5, 2017, 01:16:43 PM »
Stats can mean a lot less than what people portray them.

Anyone who has actually watched the bloke for the last six years knows his end product has been largely shit.

He needs a lot of coaching to justify his price tag. However I know Klopp is the one who can maybe do it.

That's not to say stats are useless, but stats should be used as well as first sight. And all I know is from what I have seen in the past he is wasteful. Arsenal fans who have watched him week in week out agree

You can probably make stats that make it so shit can turn to gold and it's hard to argue again. In reality though if you actually saw the gold in first person, you will see that is it is indeed actually still shit.

And don't get me wrong, he isn't shit.

So here would be my problem with that. Liverpool fans agree we need to bin Firmino and replace him with a proper goalscorer. They also agree Mane isn't worth what we paid for him. They also agree Hodgson was a good choice for manager as he would stabilize things and get back to basics. They also agree that Firmino is the most undereated forward in the league. They also agree Mane was a speed demon that would transform our attack.

People seek out information that confirms their own opinions. There are a lot of shite opinions out there. There are a lot of good opinions too. In the age of the internet you will be able to find people to agree with any opinion you have no matter how mental it is. Which brings me back again to flat earthers ;) :D

But here is the main problem I have with this. Arsenal wanted to make AoC their highest paid player. Chelsea & Liverpool wanted to sign him. Now, that means the eyeball opinion with Arsenal and the people who assess performances of their players at that club was that he was good enough to be made their highest paid player. Chelsea looked at AoC and say someone worth a similar huge wage, £40m. Their scouts would have watched him with a trained eye multiple times and approved of the transfer. Likewise Liverpool who given the players they are targeting in midfield and attack, clearly have a very clear system in mind with all purchases and the analytics people are having a blinder right now at identifying talent.

So if we base it on opinions alone, do we go with those who are trained to give those opinions and their entire career is built on the sole task of looking at players and giving opinions on them from three of the top clubs in the country? Or do we trust random internet people?
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #392 on: September 5, 2017, 01:37:15 PM »
He's definitely not an inverted winger. His crossing is much better when he is on the run - be it when running with the ball or arriving onto it - than when he cuts inside, and I'd say his shooting is also much more proficient when he blasts the ball across goal (or at the near post) than cutting inside and finessing it across goal a la Phil.

I think Klopp has mainly purchased him as cover for Lallana in the right-sided 8 role and Salah in the right-wing role. Klopp very much sees football in zones IMO; if you imagine Coutinho as covering the left-side of the pitch, be it from central midfield or the wing, then I think (and hope) he sees Oxlade covering the right side from either position.

He had a poor game last night but one thing he did still do very well was plug gaps. Sterling is clearly the more talented footballer but there's a reason Southgate chose Oxlade ahead of him last night and it's because he's more disciplined defensively. Starting Rashford and Sterling in a 4-4-2 would have been suicide.

I know Wijnaldum tends to play to the left but I can easily envisage a scenario where he plays against City on the Saturday - the type of game where his physicality and quick transition play thrives - and Oxlade comes in for him against Stoke at home on the Wednesday to provide more attacking thrust.
I still wonder about the transfer of Lemar too. In Lemar, AoC & Solanke/Origi - you have a very different attack there to support a traditional #9. Both Lemar & AoC are versatile enough to make them more than just a winger - like Downing. However, part of me wonders are we looking at having some different options in the squad to compliment our #9's who don't fit the current system.

I don't see AoC as a winger in our system at the moment. Our wingers are the goalscorers and that is the weakest aspect of his game. So playing AoC with a False #9 wouldn't be a good move.

Another thought is if Klopp moved back to a 4-2-3-1 in future. He tended to have 1 more traditional winger type on the pitch in Kuba or Großkreutz. Then a goalscoring winger, usually Reus. I imagine a system like that with Mane/Salah, Lemar/AoC, Firmino in behind a #9 could make an appearance next season with Keita fitting the profile or a perfect Klopp #8.

Good to see we have so many options tactically, more than anything, with players all having a role in the various options.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #393 on: September 5, 2017, 02:57:26 PM »
It's like sending lambs to the slaughter having players that play for England. They go out, have a bad game and get absolutely rinsed by the media and every Engerland supporting prick with a twitter account.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #394 on: September 5, 2017, 03:12:24 PM »
It's like sending lambs to the slaughter having players that play for England. They go out, have a bad game and get absolutely rinsed by the media and every Engerland supporting prick with a twitter account.
Seeing Woodburn chose Wales was one of those weirdly satisfying moments that really I should have no opinion on whatsoever. He'd have had a knife in his back before he was 20.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #395 on: September 5, 2017, 03:17:05 PM »
Seeing Woodburn chose Wales was one of those weirdly satisfying moments that really I should have no opinion on whatsoever. He'd have had a knife in his back before he was 20.

Yep I'm so glad he chose Wales, no pressure to deliver anything on the international stage and they've got a decent side. Can also do a lot worse than playing next to Gareth Bale.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #397 on: September 5, 2017, 07:05:48 PM »
Babu I'd like to hear your thoughts on this article

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/23/blog/post/3191689/how-alex-oxlade-chamberlain-rugby-background-influences-his-playing-style

I agree entirely that our experience of all sports influence our approach. For example balance is somethign that isn't really taught and yet unpins a lot of key skills and movements. Yet it is in martial arts. Which has always led me to believe a background in something like Judo would serve a player well. Some of the things Lucas used to do reminded me of someone skilled in martial arts in usings peoples balance against them to win the ball.

Skrtel is another who defended like he was playing hockey moving backwards and aiming for blocks.

For AoC you can see how when he plays centrally in the clips of him above, he looks very early for forward or diagonal passes as he styled his game around Steven Gerrard. However he also likes to carry the ball vertically which is a skillset we are lacking right now in midfield. Someone looking to carry the ball or pass the ball into zone 14. Committing defenders in the process. I also mentioned before that I just don't think he will ever be a goalscorer, nor do we need him to be. But this is the crux of all his criticism.

Similar to Lallana, if you judge based on production and particularly goalscoring, you will be disappointed and remain disappointed. He isn't a wide forward in the mould we are looking for. For me he is about penetration and using his skillset to open up spaces for others by committing defenders.

I don't agree though with his assertion that he cannot kick a ball. Any every touch video you watch shows that not to be the case. A problem he has is in trying to rush everything he does and occasionally his body fails to do things at the speed he wants. Keita is actually similar in this regard.

Then there is this paragraph.

Quote
But more relevant, for a player generally considered an attacking midfielder, is that Oxlade-Chamberlain rarely plays penetrative passes. It's difficult to remember him providing anything that could be considered a moment of "genius," or any through balls behind the defence for onrushing teammates, and the stats show that he has assisted just 14 goals in 135 Premier League games.

In that one every touch video against Southampton alone there are numerous penetrative passes and throughballs. In total I counted 5 or 6 through balls and another 5 or 6 penetrating passes from that one video.

I actually think the guy had the makings of a good article and when he plays wing back his descriptions certainly fit more. I suspect he was a or modelled his game on a winger like Jonah Lomu. However, when he plays midfield you see a different skillset, one model on another role model like Gerrard. One that rushes things, forces things at times but certainly has a skillset for what we are missing at times.

Basically, it reads like a hatchett job based on an element of truth to make it feel more insightful than it is. Within this thread there are the only 5 every touch videos we have found for his performances in central midfield and none of them come remotely close to the description of a player that guy makes out.

One last thing... there is a rare role in football called the central winger. It's a box-to-box midfielder whose instead of playing as a tradition #10, drifts side to side looking to create overloads to make spaces for wide players to exploit or get in behind. Or even drag central players like the opposing #6 out of position to give central players more spaces to exploit.

There was a good article I saw years ago on Mesut Ozil are Werder which sort of describes how he played when breaking through there.
Quote
Operating behind the strikers, he's both a playmaker and an auxiliary winger; his intelligent runs provide the width that should be missing in Thomas Schaaf's diamond formation.

Valbuena and Ljajic who are others I have seen play such a role also.

I'm not suggestion we should, or will, use Oxlaide-Chamberlain in such a way. More just showing how some players who naturally think as wingers end up adapting to central roles. Given the extremely high importance of overloads on the flanks in our system so far at the start of this season, particularly involving Gini or Can on the left, it could become a way we open up the right side of the pitch in a similar fashion.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #398 on: September 5, 2017, 08:09:56 PM »
Babu I'd like to hear your thoughts on this article

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/23/blog/post/3191689/how-alex-oxlade-chamberlain-rugby-background-influences-his-playing-style

I do not propose to deconstruct the merits or demerits of this article as there are better informed and knowledgeable posters who will better analyze same. However, I shall add a few comments which I can speak of from a personal experience.
Shooting and finishing is the single biggest problem in African football, especially in the south.  We simply do not have the facilities and coaches fail to work on this part of the game, which to me is the most important part of the game. I have been fortunate to travel various parts of the world with my sons from an early age (of 7 years old) through to US college football. I noticed that coaches in both England and Germany teach their kids to smash a ball as hard and quickly as possible. On one occasion, a coach had 2 bags of balls and threw them at this kid who had to get onto it asap. In Germany, I noted that kids at 15/16 were encouraged to shoot from 20- 30 yards. Just last year December I took my son to a lower league team in the England for an assessment. I found them to be weak technically, very one footed and direct. Nothing new. What amazed me is that just about every player could smash a ball ferociously. In Spain, I watched the youth play the typical tikka takka style but saw none of it in the men's third tier. It was as quick and direct as the lower leagues in England.

Insofar as rugby is concerned, youth football make good back line players as they tend to play with their heads up and some are able to punt with either foot. In regard to Aoc carrying the ball in straight lines and passing side ways is too simplistic an explanation. Your style, size and speed in youth football generally dictates how you turn out. The speed of your development depends on your physicality which relates to puberty. Late bloomers are disadvantaged but those that stay in the game work on their technique and find ways to counter stronger and physical players. On one occasion, I met an ex-LFC player who asked whether my sons played rugby. They hadn't played rugby which he thought to be a mistake. I could never understand why??? We focused on football but did other school sports. In hindsight, I would have got them to do boxing instead of karate and persisted with basketball. They compliment football in so many ways.
To the extent rugby may have influenced AOC style, I believe it gives you the confidence to take an opponent on. He may have developed this ability in his youth especially if he was a lot quicker than his peers. The downside is that it detracts from football intelligence where a less physical player will look to think more and execute a lot quicker. Both styles find application in football and it would be incumbent on a coach to compliment and gel the different styles of players. Ginoi will struggle against low block teams where I expect AOC to be more effective. Yet in more evenly contested games, I anticipate Gini's style of pass and move and letting the ball do the work being more effective than AOC's style of carrying the ball. The difference is that AOC can be taught to make better footballing decisions unlike the type of player who does not have the ability or lacks the confidence to take an opponent on.
AOC has time on his side and can work on his end product- be it creating or scoring goals.

« Last Edit: September 5, 2017, 08:29:22 PM by nico 8 »

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
« Reply #399 on: September 5, 2017, 09:46:12 PM »
I do not propose to deconstruct the merits or demerits of this article as there are better informed and knowledgeable posters who will better analyze same. However, I shall add a few comments which I can speak of from a personal experience.
Shooting and finishing is the single biggest problem in African football, especially in the south.  We simply do not have the facilities and coaches fail to work on this part of the game, which to me is the most important part of the game. I have been fortunate to travel various parts of the world with my sons from an early age (of 7 years old) through to US college football. I noticed that coaches in both England and Germany teach their kids to smash a ball as hard and quickly as possible. On one occasion, a coach had 2 bags of balls and threw them at this kid who had to get onto it asap. In Germany, I noted that kids at 15/16 were encouraged to shoot from 20- 30 yards. Just last year December I took my son to a lower league team in the England for an assessment. I found them to be weak technically, very one footed and direct. Nothing new. What amazed me is that just about every player could smash a ball ferociously. In Spain, I watched the youth play the typical tikka takka style but saw none of it in the men's third tier. It was as quick and direct as the lower leagues in England.

Insofar as rugby is concerned, youth football make good back line players as they tend to play with their heads up and some are able to punt with either foot. In regard to Aoc carrying the ball in straight lines and passing side ways is too simplistic an explanation. Your style, size and speed in youth football generally dictates how you turn out. The speed of your development depends on your physicality which relates to puberty. Late bloomers are disadvantaged but those that stay in the game work on their technique and find ways to counter stronger and physical players. On one occasion, I met an ex-LFC player who asked whether my sons played rugby. They hadn't played rugby which he thought to be a mistake. I could never understand why??? We focused on football but did other school sports. In hindsight, I would have got them to do boxing instead of karate and persisted with basketball. They compliment football in so many ways.
To the extent rugby may have influenced AOC style, I believe it gives you the confidence to take an opponent on. He may have developed this ability in his youth especially if he was a lot quicker than his peers. The downside is that it detracts from football intelligence where a less physical player will look to think more and execute a lot quicker. Both styles find application in football and it would be incumbent on a coach to compliment and gel the different styles of players. Ginoi will struggle against low block teams where I expect AOC to be more effective. Yet in more evenly contested games, I anticipate Gini's style of pass and move and letting the ball do the work being more effective than AOC's style of carrying the ball. The difference is that AOC can be taught to make better footballing decisions unlike the type of player who does not have the ability or lacks the confidence to take an opponent on.
AOC has time on his side and can work on his end product- be it creating or scoring goals.
Excellent post mate.

If you really want to help your kids in any sport, get them to involve themselves with something that heavily relies on balance to underpin it. Judo, Ju-Jitsu, something like that. Almost everything we do in any sport uses balance. I saw a volleyball coach on the beach near my house once. He had tied a rope between two trees and the players hand to walk along it sidewise and also try to catch/hit any balls he lobbed their way. It looked almost impossible from my perspective and yet some of the kids were excellent at it, something clearly that he works on with them a lot. Based on what he was shouting out, it seems it was more for defending/control.

Btw that whole rope-tree thing is a very common sight here in Brazil. That's the only time I have seen it specifically linked to a sport though. I'd love to know how a wonderfully balanced player like Coutinho honed it as a kid. He lived quite near a few nice beaches.

I asked my wife about this and she believes Brazilians are better balanced because of dance. In schools here there are 4 holidays a year in which public dancing is a huge part of the culture. One you likely know of - Carnival. For a month before each of those (so effectively for half the school year) there will be 2 hours of rehearsing per week for dancing for all kids. But because latins have a very big dancing culture, there is also plenty of street parties all year round with plenty of dancing.

None of this has anything to do with AoC of course. So let me try and bring it back. When AoC signed someone posted a video of him dancing around a lot on England duty with Sturridge. Let's hope that means he's a big fan of samba :D
My first article on Anfield Index on Shaqiri. Enjoy. bit.ly/2mAq3Qd