Author Topic: Naby Keita Watch  (Read 1170775 times)

Offline Flaccid Bobby Fowler

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9960 on: April 7, 2021, 12:17:02 pm »
Should never have started ahead of Thiago. Thats on Klopp. That whole midfield looked shite. Wijnaldum shite again also. What must the others be thinking seeing him going at the end of a season and he gets the armband for a huge game like this and turns in another shite performance.

Wish he had of went with Thiago, Fab and bobby with the front three ahead. and bring Wijnaldum or Keita in on the 60/70. min mark.  Return leg will almost 100% have all four on the pitch.

Offline MPowerYNWA

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9961 on: April 7, 2021, 01:08:33 pm »
Bottom line is that a team/squad with talent, over a prolonged period, will perform better than a team which needs to be Ďat ití for every single game. We donít have the required depth of talent and Klopp is doing the best with what he has - we have been exceptional in retaining intensity, but it is impossible to keep it going season after season, especially when major trophies have been won (there is a difference in motivation between winners and serial winners).

FSG invested on the basis of financial fair play rules being enforced, but they probably realise now that the rules are nonsense - Man City funded by a country, Chelsea by an oligarch and at the height of a global pandemic and no crowds, Real Madrid can somehow able to undertake a £500m stadium facelift (a bit of government support no doubt).

Hence I think FSG will be at a cross roads now - they need to decide to either invest and challenge for the top honours now, or just accept that we battle to get into the top 4 every season and perhaps the odd cup along the way.  I suspect they will do some light investment and hope we can turn coal into diamonds on the transfer front.

If we genuinely want to be in the elite of football we need to move to having 2 quality players for each position - but that is far easier to say than do - commercially you have to pay high salaries to keep a quality player in the squad and perhaps not playing.

This transfer window coming up will give us a good steer on what we will be challenging for over the next few years - of course with VVD back weíll be stronger, but we cannot have a whole club performance across a season dictated to by the absence or not of one player - that is madness.

In terms of immediate thoughts on the game :

1) I was proud of Phillips and Kabak - they did what they could given their experience and ability- not fair for them to be judged in any other way.

2) Naby was an unusual shambles - he didnít want to run or make himself available and for the 2nd goal couldnít even be bothered to put pressure on the midfielder who played the ball.  Iíve not see that with him before.  Donít be surprised if we donít see him again as a starter, if LFC can offload him for £40m or so they will (I suspect)

3) Salah put more effort in closing down than I have seen in years, I hope it was for the right reasons than a pseudo audition to Zindane imho.

4) Trent defending was worse than it has been in a while, hopefully he can learn to keep his concentration as his attacking play is immense - maybe there is a case to be made to put someone like Trent into the right hand side of midfield

5) Gini did what he could - always puts in 100%


Be nice to have a clear out of some of the deadwood in the squad and instead have a bench of individuals who can actually change a game...

Offline HomesickRed

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9962 on: April 7, 2021, 01:18:21 pm »
He is a fantastic player but the fact is he cannot stay injury free for long enough. But even then, when is the last time that Keita actually helped in turning a game around for us? Great when the team is playing well and of course he is an important part of that, but not somebody who has shown an ability to dig us out.



He's a decent player when fit and used to score around 1 in 10 for us. He was never a game changer though.
I'm reluctantly starting to fear Thiago is in a similar category.
So excited when both arrived but between them this season they have 37 appearances but no goals and no assists.

Offline B0151?

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9963 on: April 7, 2021, 01:56:55 pm »
Disgusted to hear about the racial abuse him and Trent have been subject to

Offline Rhi

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9964 on: April 7, 2021, 03:00:01 pm »
Disgusted to hear about the racial abuse him and Trent have been subject to

An all too common occurrence in sport generally at the moment. The social media platforms MUST do more. Disgusting that these scum can get away with it.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9965 on: April 7, 2021, 03:07:34 pm »
Disgusted to hear about the racial abuse him and Trent have been subject to

Makes me sick.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9966 on: April 7, 2021, 03:29:09 pm »
An all too common occurrence in sport generally at the moment. The social media platforms MUST do more. Disgusting that these scum can get away with it.
they'll do fuck all but give it lip service. Until there is a concerted effort to swith off from the platforms, nothing will be done.

If every player, club and other famous people quit instagram (or twitter)for a month, I bet things would happen pretty quick.
Some clubs were always destined for greatness...

Offline Zlen

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9967 on: April 7, 2021, 03:37:28 pm »
I see no obvious way for him to become what we hoped for.
It's either timid Naby or injured Naby, with few rare standout performances in-between.
I couldn't give many fucks about his peaks, if he reaches them once in a blue moon.
We're basically wasting valuable minutes for Curtis Jones.

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9968 on: April 7, 2021, 03:42:05 pm »
they'll do fuck all but give it lip service. Until there is a concerted effort to swith off from the platforms, nothing will be done.

If every player, club and other famous people quit instagram (or twitter)for a month, I bet things would happen pretty quick.

The social media companies could stop it in a heart beat.  Pretty sure there is an article from a couple of years ago about how if Facebook did stamp out the racism and extreme views on the platform it would mainly affect Republicans and therefore it wasnít worth it.  Could imagine the same being true in the UK for the Tories.  Basically theyíre more afraid of political backlash than their platforms being used for ill purposes.

Offline Studgotelli

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9969 on: April 7, 2021, 03:50:48 pm »
Racial abuse is not on

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9970 on: April 7, 2021, 04:17:46 pm »
The social media companies could stop it in a heart beat.  Pretty sure there is an article from a couple of years ago about how if Facebook did stamp out the racism and extreme views on the platform it would mainly affect Republicans and therefore it wasnít worth it.  Could imagine the same being true in the UK for the Tories.  Basically theyíre more afraid of political backlash than their platforms being used for ill purposes.
to be honest we probably need to keep racist/extreme views/articles separate from this - typically those are discussion points that most sane people can counter/educate or report.

What we're seeing in terms of footballers or other public figures  is all out abuse, whether that be of a racial or sexist nature (or both). Typically the perpetrators are people (cowards) who wouldn't raise their voice in public let alone shout abuse based on someone's skin colour. Some of the language is becoming so normalised that they don't even realise what they are saying.

Eventually either this will stop by victims leaving the platforms or the perpetrators getting caught by the police (at huge costs to the taxpayer). I'd love to make the social media companies personally responsible for their content though that could have other unintended consequences.
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Offline jackh

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9971 on: April 7, 2021, 04:52:49 pm »
So was he just hooked or is he injured?

The gaffer said it was tactical

Think it's worth noting that there are a variety of reasons why a player might be withdrawn, and "hooked" & "tactical" are by no means the same thing as the only alternative to being due to injury.

We were - almost to a man - abysmal in that first half, but I don't think Klopp was singling-out Keita and "hooking" him as a means to make an example of him and a woeful first half.  More likely he just saw the need for a tactical switch and (ultimately) Wijnaldum & (though likely less of a consideration) Fab were more important to that tactical plan.

Similarly, Thiago wasn't injured ahead of the game but him not starting wasn't a case of him being "dropped" - even if this did seem to be the word strangely being used on social media pre-match.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9972 on: April 7, 2021, 04:58:13 pm »
Disgusted to hear about the racial abuse him and Trent have been subject to
absolutely disgusting. also makes me sick to my stomach to see comments like "those comments are terrible but we paid 53m for him" "racism is not ok but you have to perform better" etc etc. some people just don't get it or they just don't have it. fuck each one of them.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9973 on: April 7, 2021, 05:16:20 pm »
absolutely disgusting. also makes me sick to my stomach to see comments like "those comments are terrible but we paid 53m for him" "racism is not ok but you have to perform better" etc etc. some people just don't get it or they just don't have it. fuck each one of them.

This is where a full Anfield would be good for Naby, Trent and Neco to show that divs on social media are not worth thinking about.

Offline thaddeus

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9974 on: April 7, 2021, 05:23:21 pm »
Think it's worth noting that there are a variety of reasons why a player might be withdrawn, and "hooked" & "tactical" are by no means the same thing as the only alternative to being due to injury.

We were - almost to a man - abysmal in that first half, but I don't think Klopp was singling-out Keita and "hooking" him as a means to make an example of him and a woeful first half.  More likely he just saw the need for a tactical switch and (ultimately) Wijnaldum & (though likely less of a consideration) Fab were more important to that tactical plan.

Similarly, Thiago wasn't injured ahead of the game but him not starting wasn't a case of him being "dropped" - even if this did seem to be the word strangely being used on social media pre-match.
The timing was a bit odd though with it being less than five minutes before half-time.  The need for a tactical change was apparent soon after the kick-off so it was strange to wait for so long but then do it just a few minutes before half-time.

If nothing else it gave Real half-time to plan tweaks to their own system in response to our change and come out ready for it after half-time.

I never got above parks football so I appreciate it's not really comparable but if I got subbed at 42 minutes for tactical reasons I'd have been in the car heading home before the ref blew up for half-time  ;D.  Hopefully Keita takes it on the chin and comes back stronger.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9975 on: April 8, 2021, 09:06:56 am »
Every team has a scapegoat and Keita is currently ours.

Offline a treeless whopper

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9976 on: April 8, 2021, 09:13:15 am »
Every team has a scapegoat and Keita is currently ours.

Is he? I think there is an acknowledgement that everybody was shit.

Offline Clint Eastwood

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9977 on: April 8, 2021, 09:28:30 am »
I think it's hard to be an attacking midfielder in our set-up.

Offline ljycb

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9978 on: April 8, 2021, 09:30:56 am »
Every team has a scapegoat and Keita is currently ours.

Meh, I donít think he is really. The lad hardly ever plays so I donít think he qualifies as a scapegoat.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9979 on: April 8, 2021, 09:31:41 am »
Every team has a scapegoat and Keita is currently ours.
Are you including the manager in that appraisal?
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Offline Zlen

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9980 on: April 8, 2021, 09:57:47 am »
Every team has a scapegoat and Keita is currently ours.

I'm struggling to remember a Liverpool player that was afforded more time and patience while producing so little and being unavailable for so long. He is not a scapegoat, he just isn't the player we hyped him up to be.

Offline Sharado

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9981 on: April 8, 2021, 10:00:44 am »
Every team has a scapegoat and Keita is currently ours.

One of them isn't it, if you don't want criticism then put in a shift that doesn't see you get hooked before half time.
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Offline a treeless whopper

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9982 on: April 8, 2021, 10:01:11 am »
I'm struggling to remember a Liverpool player that was afforded more time and patience while producing so little and being unavailable for so long. He is not a scapegoat, he just isn't the player we hyped him up to be.

Not sure about that. He has been good most of the times that he plays.

But yes, we have been very patient and quite frankly we have been quick to praise little flicks and tricks from him in games where we are already winning.


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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9983 on: April 8, 2021, 10:03:46 am »
Every team has a scapegoat and Keita is currently ours.

It seems that there's no 'reasonable' ground in discussing Keita. You're either hyping him up to be the best midfielder in the league or he's a waste of space.

He's not a scapegoat, in that he's deserved criticism following Tuesday's display. However, he doesn't pick himself and he didn't spend millions to get himself to Liverpool. In truth, Klopp likes him because he's an excellent footballer. However, circumstances have prevented that being showcased regularly. Some fans don't like injury-prone footballers to the extent they blame them for being injured. Other fans demand unreasonable levels of patience with such footballers.

Not sure if there's a right and a wrong here...what we know is that Klopp rarely chimes with the pitchfork yielding mob on anything...in fact he usually does the opposite...so expect Keita in an XI very soon!

Offline jackh

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9984 on: April 8, 2021, 10:13:56 am »
I'm struggling to remember a Liverpool player that was afforded more time and patience while producing so little and being unavailable for so long. He is not a scapegoat, he just isn't the player we hyped him up to be.

Arguably not his fault, though - he was a bit of a 'hipsters' player' back in that 2016-'18 period, which allowed some hype to build, and (I think I'm right in saying) he was playing a different role in that RBL side...?  From what I've seen he appeared to have a lot more attacking freedom, whereas our midfielders are expected to have a lot more functional responsibility.

Availability issues are of course a concern, but I don't recall many occasions where he's stood out as poor (I know that's not the level we're looking for) in our team.  People have pointed at him a common presence in first-halves against both Villa & Real this season, but much of the season overall has been a shit-show and I think that two game sample is too small from which to decide that he was a causal factor in those performances.

Personally, I think that the substitution on Tuesday was one where excessive reading into it is just an inevitable & unfortunately side-effect, and I hope to see him back on the pitch in the next couple of games - possibly a start against Newcastle next weekend.

-----

Caveats about small samples apply here, too, but this cropped up a few weeks ago*:



https://twitter.com/topimpacat/status/1375847469968461824

*Edited this to be separate to the prior comments.  I should have posted as two separate ones really - the last line and graphic were very specifically a response to "producing so little".  It's some, limited evidence that seems to support the idea that it's his availability rather than his ability that is holding him back and is why patience is wearing thin.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2021, 01:27:01 pm by jackh »

Offline jackh

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9985 on: April 8, 2021, 10:15:35 am »
It seems that there's no 'reasonable' ground in discussing Keita. You're either hyping him up to be the best midfielder in the league or he's a waste of space.

He's not a scapegoat, in that he's deserved criticism following Tuesday's display. However, he doesn't pick himself and he didn't spend millions to get himself to Liverpool. In truth, Klopp likes him because he's an excellent footballer. However, circumstances have prevented that being showcased regularly. Some fans don't like injury-prone footballers to the extent they blame them for being injured. Other fans demand unreasonable levels of patience with such footballers.

Not sure if there's a right and a wrong here...what we know is that Klopp rarely chimes with the pitchfork yielding mob on anything...in fact he usually does the opposite...so expect Keita in an XI very soon!

Good wee post.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9986 on: April 8, 2021, 11:47:17 am »
Naby hasn't lived up to the hype. Not sure why we're playing Gini as much either, are we getting him ready for Barca? Gini should only play if we've no choice.
This is on Klopp. Needs to be more ruthless and accept Naby hasn't worked and looks less likely to with each injury and start moving on the squad players (ox, cube) that take up places but can't cut it when called upon.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9987 on: April 8, 2021, 11:49:04 am »
I think it's hard to be an attacking midfielder in our set-up.

I see no reason why Bobby doesn't play there.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9988 on: April 8, 2021, 12:01:41 pm »
I still (perhaps naively i admit) believe Naby can be played into form. That of course depends on his availability which of course has been the crux of the problem.

Not a complete excuse, but given how little he's played for the obvious reason of availability, it was a mistake to put him in from the off against a midfield like Real, who made a fool of every single Liverpool midfielder out there on Tuesday, not just Naby.

Offline kaesarsosei

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9989 on: April 8, 2021, 12:17:07 pm »




See this is my biggest problem Keita stans even regardless of his fitness woes. What has he EVER done to merit being included in the same bracket as those other lads in the middle? What do you reckon City fans think when they see Keita's name there with Fernandinho?

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9990 on: April 8, 2021, 12:19:27 pm »
See this is my biggest problem Keita stans even regardless of his fitness woes. What has he EVER done to merit being included in the same bracket as those other lads in the middle? What do you reckon City fans think when they see Keita's name there with Fernandinho?
It's literally labeled on the image why. It doesn't mean he's as good as them, it doesn't mean being in the middle makes you the best.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2021, 12:21:39 pm by Chris~ »

Offline Stubbins

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9991 on: April 8, 2021, 12:23:12 pm »
It seems that there's no 'reasonable' ground in discussing Keita. You're either hyping him up to be the best midfielder in the league or he's a waste of space.


Most fans seem to have taken a very reasoned approach in discussing Keita. I think both the club and fan base have been remarkably patient with all his fitness issues and have willed him to turn things around and to be a success here. But there always seems some reason why he can't perform to the level we all expected when he was bought in. We see the occasional flash of brilliance which suggests the real talent that lies there, but it's too fleeting and rarely done when it matters. You can't blame fans for questioning where he goes from here and if his future remains at LFC.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9992 on: April 8, 2021, 12:38:21 pm »
See this is my biggest problem Keita stans even regardless of his fitness woes. What has he EVER done to merit being included in the same bracket as those other lads in the middle? What do you reckon City fans think when they see Keita's name there with Fernandinho?

Performed similarly according to the stated criteria.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9993 on: April 8, 2021, 12:43:46 pm »
See this is my biggest problem Keita stans even regardless of his fitness woes. What has he EVER done to merit being included in the same bracket as those other lads in the middle? What do you reckon City fans think when they see Keita's name there with Fernandinho?

it's literally a set of statistics that shows per minute or whatever his numbers are comparable with some of the best in the league. The issue/s are those minutes tend to be few and far between for a number of reasons.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9994 on: April 8, 2021, 01:12:53 pm »
Has Klopp said anything with any context as to why he hooked Naby. Think I read something along the lines of ďhe was not the only one, but I had to do somethingĒ?.

Klopp did say he couldnít ignore him in training any more and he was in the side to dribble with the ball, break Madridís lines and get us into positions that they donít like.

Anyone think he looks at Naby again given his pre match comments, we canít be worse than the first leg in fact I expect us to have learned something and show a big improvement, more confidence at home for sure. OR leaves him out and tryís another approach?.


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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9995 on: April 8, 2021, 01:14:50 pm »
Every team has a scapegoat and Keita is currently ours.

For me its the hysteria in this place that then buys in to the below, that then makes the fall so hard for the lad and makes it feel like he's a whipping boy. He's not, he's just not good enough, or at least has not shown anything to justify the hysteria versus evidence, to where this place thinks he is,or should be.

This whole forum needs a massive shot of realism and needs to take its rose tinted glasses off.

Arguably not his fault, though - he was a bit of a 'hipsters' player' back in that 2016-'18 period, which allowed some hype to build, and (I think I'm right in saying) he was playing a different role in that RBL side...?  From what I've seen he appeared to have a lot more attacking freedom, whereas our midfielders are expected to have a lot more functional responsibility.

Availability issues are of course a concern, but I don't recall many occasions where he's stood out as poor (I know that's not the level we're looking for) in our team.  People have pointed at him a common presence in first-halves against both Villa & Real this season, but much of the season overall has been a shit-show and I think that two game sample is too small from which to decide that he was a causal factor in those performances.

Personally, I think that the substitution on Tuesday was one where excessive reading into it is just an inevitable & unfortunately side-effect, and I hope to see him back on the pitch in the next couple of games - possibly a start against Newcastle next weekend.

Caveats about small samples apply here, too, but this cropped up a few weeks ago:



https://twitter.com/topimpacat/status/1375847469968461824




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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9996 on: April 8, 2021, 01:24:23 pm »
Its been tough one for Naby. His main problem at the club has always been consistency. We've seen flashes of brilliance for a moment here or a period there but nothing game after game (which is what you want, and arguably almost expect for a player you sign for 50-60M). Initially, we've been able to label inconsistency as a product of all the injury issues that he's had. Now that he's returned to some degree of fitness he really needs to play regularly and show what he can do regularly otherwise he, like other players, will run out of excuses and lifelines.

Against Madrid we were schooled in the midfield. It didn't help that we were poor all over but particularly in the middle. I don't feel that he was done favours by his team mates as I thought Gini looked particularly poor in the first half, as did our front three. That's no excuse though, one still expects him to perform better. Hopefully he'll get it together soon.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2021, 01:26:37 pm by mrantarctica »

Offline jackh

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9997 on: April 8, 2021, 01:25:48 pm »
For me its the hysteria in this place that then buys in to the below, that then makes the fall so hard for the lad and makes it feel like he's a whipping boy. He's not, he's just not good enough, or at least has not shown anything to justify the hysteria versus evidence, to where this place thinks he is,or should be.

This whole forum needs a massive shot of realism and needs to take its rose tinted glasses off.

I should have posted my post as two separate ones really - the last line and graphic were very specifically a response to "producing so little".  It's some, limited evidence that seems to support the idea that it's his availability rather than his ability that is holding him back and is why patience is wearing thin.

I don't think there's anything particularly hysterical in the rest of the post.

I really like him as a player and - like any of our players - I hope he gets more opportunities to demonstrate his ability.  Fortunately, he is currently fit & available and so might have opportunities to do so - he'll need to perform an awful lot better than he did on Tuesday though, although he was absolutely by no means single-handedly to blame (nor do I even think he particularly 'stood out') in that crap team performance.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9998 on: April 8, 2021, 01:30:31 pm »
I should have posted my post as two separate ones really - the last line and graphic were very specifically a response to "producing so little".  It's some, limited evidence that seems to support the idea that it's his availability rather than his ability that is holding him back and is why patience is wearing thin.

I don't think there's anything particularly hysterical in the rest of the post.

I really like him as a player and - like any of our players - I hope he gets more opportunities to demonstrate his ability.  Fortunately, he is currently fit & available and so might have opportunities to do so - he'll need to perform an awful lot better than he did on Tuesday though, although he was absolutely by no means single-handedly to blame (nor do I even think he particularly 'stood out') in that crap team performance.

Not you directly fella, more so this whole forum.

Feast or famine with our players in here. Never seems to be any mid-ground and when it needs calling out about a player, it needs to be taken in the spirit that its meant. Go at the post, not the poster I believe was the old rule of thumb we used to use.

Me, I'm going at the whole fucking forum! ;D
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #9999 on: April 8, 2021, 01:33:54 pm »
Not you directly fella, more so this whole forum.

Feast or famine with our players in here. Never seems to be any mid-ground and when it needs calling out about a player, it needs to be taken in the spirit that its meant. Go at the post, not the poster I believe was the old rule of thumb we used to use.

Me, I'm going at the whole fucking forum! ;D

Yes, didn't think so anyway - I just went the long way around clarifying it!

"Mid-ground" - as mentioned in a previous post, I found it dead weird that people were talking about Thiago having been "dropped" pre-match too.  World of extremes, I suppose...!
« Last Edit: April 8, 2021, 01:36:04 pm by jackh »