Author Topic: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017  (Read 11306 times)

Offline Djozer

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2017, 09:23:38 PM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/8e1h8Gs9tGI" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/8e1h8Gs9tGI</a>

Wanted to share this in here. It's every touch of AoC. I thought he did okay at the weekend and struggled badly with Mane/Gini/Moreno around him a lot. It's noticable the space between him and the nearest Arsenal player very often forcing him to turn back. There is even moments where he is signalling for someone to come towards him.

When players were closer to him , he seemed to fare much better.

Given we are signing him, and this is the stick to beat him with, just wanted to add this to the roundtable for peoples views.

Cheers for that, mate, and cheers, as ever, for all the informative posts. I understand very little about them but I'd like to think something's sinking in there, somewhere...

It was interesting watching that AOC video and seeing just how hard we seemed to be cutting off the passing options in many cases. I sometimes rewatch the matches but it's never something I tend to notice as I tend to focus on our team and the beautiful attacking tapestries they weave. It was quite novel to watch a bit with the focus on an opposition player (though ours soon, all being well!) and I got a bit of a different perspective.

Nice one all for the roundtableness - these things tend to be a pleasure to read, especially when we win! I don't have much to add, really, apart from well, that was a hell of a lot of fun to watch. That front three are irresistible at times and, although Arsenal's midfield gave them a pretty good run at the defence, they're going to cause a lot of teams a lot of problems this year.

Like many others I've been critical of our midfield three this year but against Arsenal Gini and Can were utterly, utterly imperious and Henderson wasn't far behind - he seemed to be everywhere up and down the pitch, snapping into challenges, and refusing to allow Arsenal the merest foothold in the match. At the risk of sounding like one of the pundits though, they won't be facing many more lethargic midfields this season but still, it bodes well for us going forward.

The defence didn't have a huge amount to do but what they did, they did well. I thought Matip was particularly excellent - his positioning seemed to be spot on as a few times, just as it looked as if an Arsenal player was threatening to break through, our long-legged Cameroonian just...appeared, and snuffed out whatever danger might have been brewing. They all performed admirably though, even Karius, who had taken it upon himself to keep the game interesting by pretending to give the ball to Danny Welbeck and giving the commentators something else to tut about other than Arsenal's ineptitude.

Cracking stuff all round.


Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2017, 10:26:35 PM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/4eA1vyq-dzE" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/4eA1vyq-dzE</a>

Highly recommend skipping through to the parts where Barnes speaks.

Makes an interesting point on the contrast between Ozil for Germany and Arsenal. The demands are different for Germany. The fans expect commitment, desire, passion so he puts a shift in as he know if he doesn't he´ll get binned by Joachim Lowe. He knows the fans would get on his back for it. At Arsenal, no matter how little he does he will never get dropped, or brought off, and the fans will blame Wenger. It's not Ozil's fault, it's Wenger. Keep him. Give him 250k a week.

I don't really follow the Germany national team but would be interested to know the truth in that statement also.

It brings me back to what Henry said and many people think - everything is comfortable at Arsenal. Nice at Arsenal. Training is comfortable. No matter how little you show, you can play. Then when someone turns up the pressure on them, they collapse every time. The problems they have seem systemic. The part of the problem we see is the 90 minutes on Sunday. But I still cannot blame the players for that. I think the best indicator that they would like to do something about it and feel they cannot is wanting to leave, refusing a contract regardless of salary offered, trying to push the manager out the door. They know that can only change from the top down, but are powerless to do so.
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline McrhimboRed

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2017, 10:41:12 PM »
Just a point on roundtableness, one of the things I was most happy about was the handing off of runners into our six yard box. A couple of times hendo and the other midfielders took over (especially from Gomez) and let him handle the trailing runner. In previous games that trailing runner would have been through on goal. I can't remember who said last year was about attacking patterns and this year would focus on defensive organisation. So far, so good.

Offline stockdam

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2017, 10:50:35 PM »
[
Wanted to share this in here. It's every touch of AoC. I thought he did okay at the weekend and struggled badly with Mane/Gini/Moreno around him a lot. It's noticable the space between him and the nearest Arsenal player very often forcing him to turn back. There is even moments where he is signalling for someone to come towards him.

When players were closer to him , he seemed to fare much better.

Given we are signing him, and this is the stick to beat him with, just wanted to add this to the roundtable for peoples views.

I'm not a fan of his but that's because of his past. However if he comes to us then he may improve greatly under Klopp. He appears to be a hard worker and may flourish. Like Can, it may take a while but he may turn into a much better player. If Klopp thinks so then who are the rest of us to argue.

If and when he comes we need to give him time to adjust as I don't think he is close to the finished article.

The only negative comment that I have is that I think we are over-paying.
#JFT96

Offline stockdam

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2017, 10:58:35 PM »

Like many others I've been critical of our midfield three this year but against Arsenal Gini and Can were utterly, utterly imperious and Henderson wasn't far behind - he seemed to be everywhere up and down the pitch, snapping into challenges, and refusing to allow Arsenal the merest foothold in the match. At the risk of sounding like one of the pundits though, they won't be facing many more lethargic midfields this season but still, it bodes well for us going forward.


Not much to add except you are right about the midfield. Arsenal's midfield were pathetic and it was easy for us to out-work them and that was the key to the match. Henderson, Gini and Can had so much time and they used it well.

We are a mixture of a high-intensity midfield along with fast skillful forwards. Against a team who don't like working and with a weak defence then we will always do well. Arsenal were the perfect team for us to play.

I don't think we'll have the time in midfield against the "lesser" teams and they will defend much better. Arsenal wanted to attack us and left themselves wide open for the counter. A lot of teams will sit back and pack their midfield and defence.

So although we were fantastic against Arsenal, we may not find the lower teams as easy. When we start to steam-roll the likes of WBA etc then we will be a great team...........I can see us getting there though.
#JFT96

Offline dangerpuss

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2017, 11:04:03 PM »
The only negative comment that I have is that I think we are over-paying.

Sigurdsson cost £45m.

In the current market I don't think it's an unreasonable fee for a young, experienced and versatile international player. AOC just turned 24 a few weeks ago and he's English. Drinkwater will probably go for more and he's much older and not as good. The market is crazy. Arsenal turned down £50m for a player with one year left in his contract.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2017, 11:07:52 PM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/T70vGyWru4c" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/T70vGyWru4c</a>

Skip to 7:45. Try not to laugh.
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2017, 12:06:38 AM »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2017, 12:19:53 AM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/4eA1vyq-dzE" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/4eA1vyq-dzE</a>

Highly recommend skipping through to the parts where Barnes speaks.

Makes an interesting point on the contrast between Ozil for Germany and Arsenal. The demands are different for Germany. The fans expect commitment, desire, passion so he puts a shift in as he know if he doesn't he´ll get binned by Joachim Lowe. He knows the fans would get on his back for it. At Arsenal, no matter how little he does he will never get dropped, or brought off, and the fans will blame Wenger. It's not Ozil's fault, it's Wenger. Keep him. Give him 250k a week.

I don't really follow the Germany national team but would be interested to know the truth in that statement also.

It brings me back to what Henry said and many people think - everything is comfortable at Arsenal. Nice at Arsenal. Training is comfortable. No matter how little you show, you can play. Then when someone turns up the pressure on them, they collapse every time. The problems they have seem systemic. The part of the problem we see is the 90 minutes on Sunday. But I still cannot blame the players for that. I think the best indicator that they would like to do something about it and feel they cannot is wanting to leave, refusing a contract regardless of salary offered, trying to push the manager out the door. They know that can only change from the top down, but are powerless to do so.

I would take Ozil tomorrow. Did you hear Klopp's comments about Ozil last week saying he was a great player and he was bewildered why he is ripped to pieces by everyone in this country. I feel at Arsenal he is a product of is environment which is a club that is devoid of leadership from the very top all the way down to the manager and you can see it carries over onto the pitch. The perception is their players are soft as shite i think that is a false narrative because over the last 10 to 12 years they have had a lot of great players who would walk into a lot of the top clubs in the world but at Arsenal they continue to underachieve. The number of players who want to jump ship over the last decade is no coincidence IMO. The owner Kroenke is awful and you have a manager Wenger who needs to be put out of is misery. Back to Ozil could you imagine him for us against the low block. We'd piss the league.

Offline Xabier Alonso Olano

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2017, 04:57:18 AM »
I had posted this in the general match thread on Sunday night after the game but after reading Babu's OP about the training video, thought I'd put it in here for anyone who wants to watch it, and it's worth the watch, it really is straight off the training ground, as so many of our goals have already been this season. Firmino vs Hoffenheim, Salah and Sturridge vs Arsenal. Not only does the video highlight our great will to counterattack in numbers, but it also promotes composure when we arrive into the final zones to make sure we calmly make the right choices in such positions.





https://streamable.com/5qn3n

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/tour-2017/269803-explained-the-ideas-behind-reds-unusual-11-v-11-training-game

The first link is the training video, well worth the watch in light of today's perfect performance which as the video shows we've been working on excellently.

The second explains the method to the madness, worth the read,

I really like the drill, it's beauty is its simplicity, encouraging players to always be aware of attacking opportunities, yet in a manner that promotes composure (with the opposition not allowed to intervene) and hard running. Which is exactly how we played today, aware, composed and hardworking.

Today's game really does mirror that video, it's great seeing it transferred onto the pitch with such devasting results. What I really like is the decisiveness in the final third, all game we looked dangerous, all week we've looked dangerous in fact! The decision making offensively has improved so drastically from when Klopp first joined, we know where to hurt teams, we find the space regardless of the oppositions formation and we utilise our strengths excellently when we get in those positions.

Thought we were excellent to a man, even Karius who only had a couple of high balls to deal with, which I thought he dealt with well. Not fussed about the couple times he dwelt on it, didn't cost us and he will learn from it.

Pleased for Joe Gomez after the year that he's had, actually think FB suits him, or that it could with a little more experience. But with Trent and Clyne can't see him getting a good run there. Great today though, and still ridiculously young, I forget that about some of our youngsters as they are all so fearless.

Best games this season for the centre halves, individually and as a partnership. Deserved the cleansheet and plaudits for preventing any efforts on target.

Moreno. Reborn. And I'm pleased for him.

The midfield three were something else. An every touch video of all three would go off. Some of the first touches were elite level, Emre Can took in another couple hard hit passes whilst on the move with immediate control. All of them are getting better and better every game, on and off the ball. They controlled the play brilliantly for 90 minutes, and we managed the game in the last 20 minutes as good as I've seen since 2nd half vs Spurs at home last season.

The front three were just as unreal. Firmino is a beast, I'm chuffed he's got the no.9 as it suits him and he is the key pivot in the team. The lad really has got it all and he's going to get even better. He typifies everything that is good about us at the minute, hardworking, quick thinking, technically excellent, and always makes the right decision with the final ball.

Gutted it the international break, just as we have hit our stride. Great start to the season, can't fucking wait for City already, could be a game of the the ages, loved our games against them last season and I reckon this one could be even better.

Offline 12C

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2017, 07:53:00 AM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/T70vGyWru4c" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/T70vGyWru4c</a>

Skip to 7:45. Try not to laugh.
Failed!
🤣🤣🤣
And as I rise above the treeline and the clouds
I look down...

Offline 12C

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2017, 08:05:34 AM »
I would take Ozil tomorrow. Did you hear Klopp's comments about Ozil last week saying he was a great player and he was bewildered why he is ripped to pieces by everyone in this country. I feel at Arsenal he is a product of is environment which is a club that is devoid of leadership from the very top all the way down to the manager and you can see it carries over onto the pitch. The perception is their players are soft as shite i think that is a false narrative because over the last 10 to 12 years they have had a lot of great players who would walk into a lot of the top clubs in the world but at Arsenal they continue to underachieve. The number of players who want to jump ship over the last decade is no coincidence IMO. The owner Kroenke is awful and you have a manager Wenger who needs to be put out of is misery. Back to Ozil could you imagine him for us against the low block. We'd piss the league.

Do you think it is a question of Ozil and the rest not knowing their role in the team. I know players are coached and do drills but, you get the impression that the best teams all have players who know what they are expected to do in all situations. If we believe half of what we hear, then Wengers philosophy is to let players express themselves with the ball.
This requires 11 'captains in open field'. 11 leaders who make the right choices, if you like.
Klopp said he was not happy with our decision making when he first arrived, mainly due to the number of ineffective shots, wasting good possession. I'm sure BabuYagu will have the stats to hand, but I know I am shouting "don't shoot" far less than I was.
A lot of work has gone into the coaching of roles, and the development of leaders who can ensure everyone is 'on task'. I loved the clip of Hendo furiously bollocking people at 4-0.
Ozil looks like a man in the middle of a hurricane. (Sanchez too) No one around them has a clue. Perhaps this is the difference in the systems?
And as I rise above the treeline and the clouds
I look down...

Offline a clueless whopper

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2017, 12:07:01 PM »
Great posts.

All i have to add is that alongside Chelsea we are the best side in this league.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #53 on: September 9, 2017, 03:50:10 PM »
So I was rewatching the Arsenal match while waiting for City to download. I noticed this and managed to find a good, high quality gif to demonstrate it.



I'd like to ask you all to watch this gif a few times, each time focusing on one Liverpool player in particular. Ask yourself how they react to danger, what actions they take, how hard they work to take that action. Thoughts?

Now look at Henderson, Can, Gini, Gomez & Moreno in particular. Thoughts?

Now look just at Can in comparison to each of those players. He somewhat stands out right?

And this is why he is something of a conundrum in our system. As a #6 he has poor awareness and reactions to danger. He steps out here to make an angle for a pass but in doing so gives Arsenal an overload on us when they turn the ball over. He then does nothing to rectify the 5 v 3 overload Arsenal have by quickly narrowing or getting back - compared to literally every other player in shot. There is so much wrong in this one clip.

It is similar to the Watford 2nd goal, he just switches off. Doesn't recover his position. Doesn't track runners. Doesn't see dangerous spaces opening up and players attacking them. The penalty against Hoffenheim was the same. He walks out of the LB position where there is a Hoffenheim player in space - this player then receives the ball and plays in Gnabry under no pressure at all.

This is why in the Emre thread I was explaining that I like him and has the potential to be world class and can see the Keita partnership being a thing of beauty. On the other, I can see some serious flaws and understand why he isn't first choice in any position, even as a Kehl-like #6 for Klopp. You can't play that #6 role and at the same time fail to react to danger consistently like this.

When watching situations unfold and watching players who could play the #6 role in our system, I ask myself "what would Mascherano do". That is a very high benchmark of course - but the decisions should be the same even if most cannot execute as well as him. When the decisions are completely wrong though - you have a serious problem for that role.
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #54 on: September 9, 2017, 06:03:33 PM »


Okay one more. Watch this a few times. Watch how Can's decisions leaves Ramsey open. Henderson then needs to adjust to watch both Ozil & Ramsey and cannot do either due to them splitting with some brilliant movement. Matip then needs to step out to help with Ozil opening up a space to Lovren's right that he needs to shut and with Wellback to left.

These sorts of chain reactions are interesting. We are in a good shape here. Then one player stepping out at the wrong time and failing to recover sees the whole system collapse.

Additional thought:-
Look where AoC is here. Stretching our defensive line horizontally. Moreno is watching him, making space for Wellback to play in. Does that mean when Can steps up Mane should drop in behind him to watch Ramsey? Should he be out closer to AoC?

I like our fullbacks here too. In a short clip you see them checking on the widest players with little glances. They are tucked in so the spaces are not too big in the channels. Gomez makes a good run to cover for Matip when he sees the danger. Moreno abandons AoC the second he sees Ramsey will get the ball and makes a recovery run centrally to cover Lovren & Matip also.

These are good indicators that our fullbacks (particular Moreno who really struggled here) are learning on the training pitch how to assess dangers and make decisions on which dangers to prioritise and when. However there are some indicators too that our midfield is badly exposing our defence with bad decision making.
« Last Edit: September 9, 2017, 06:11:17 PM by BabuYagu »
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline Johnny Foreigner

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #55 on: September 9, 2017, 06:07:54 PM »


Okay one more. Watch this a few times. Watch how Can's decisions leaves Ramsey open. Henderson then needs to adjust to watch both Ozil & Ramsey and cannot do either due to them splitting with some brilliant movement. Matip then needs to step out to help with Ozil opening up a space to Lovren's right that he needs to shut and with Wellback to left.

These sorts of chain reactions are interesting. We are in a good shape here. Then one player stepping out at the wrong time and failing to recover sees the whole system collapse.

Can is covering his man, henderson is leaving his and expose the defence..
It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #56 on: September 9, 2017, 06:17:25 PM »
Can is covering his man, henderson is leaving his and expose the defence..

You see that? Why would a CB be Can's man? Surely if man marking his man is Ramsey, no?

Firstly you can't press with Man Marking in this situation, so it's zonal. You can tell this because there is nobody man marking anybody on the pitch touch tight whereas you can see clear zones of influence for each. Can's zone is where Ramsey is in throughout. At what point is he covering Ramsey or his zone?

Henderson stays in his zone but tries to adjust his position to block Ozil and use his cover shadow to mark Ramsey. However smart moves right and towards the ball from Ozil, with Ramsey moving off Hendersons blindside means he ends up spread too thin in a huge zone. Look at how much space Henderson is in alone with Ozil & Ramsey. Bear in mind the key principal of everything we do is compactness - why are we not compact?
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2017, 10:00:53 AM »
Disagree. Can has to make a move towards the man on the ball there. It was clever play by Arsenal but if you wish to point to a Liverpool weakness there are arguably two. The first is that Gini reacts a fraction too late and could perhaps have used Can's movement towards the ball as a trigger to press the Arsenal midfielder in front of him. The second is that Henderson fails to look over his shoulder and is drawn towards a player (Ozil) who is already being covered by Matip rather than falling back and marking Ramsey.
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Offline Sevens and Eights

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Re: Roundtable: L'verpool vs. Le Arse 27 August 2017
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2017, 12:46:56 PM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/T70vGyWru4c" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/T70vGyWru4c</a>

Skip to 7:45. Try not to laugh.

at 3:54 the official is inspecting the players... what's he looking for? I've never noticed that before.