Author Topic: Atheism  (Read 190874 times)

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #520 on: August 30, 2017, 11:24:48 am »
It is ridiculous to suggest that there isn't an atheist movement. There patently is though it is nowhere near as strong as it was a few years ago. Living in Europe where religion dwindled to the point of irrelevance many years ago might cloud the real movement that is alive and kicking in other far more religiously dominated parts of the world.

Is it "alive and kicking" in Iran or Saudi, just to mention the two most obvious "religiously dominated parts of the world"?
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #521 on: August 30, 2017, 11:25:50 am »
I don't see many atheists handing out leaflets about joining their group when I'm out shopping. Thankfully

Offline RedRabbit

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #522 on: August 30, 2017, 11:45:48 am »
I do. Every day. I don't get up every morning and think 'today I won't believe in God'.

I do.

Master Richard insists on it if I want to stay part of the move....


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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #523 on: August 30, 2017, 11:59:26 am »
Is it "alive and kicking" in Iran or Saudi, just to mention the two most obvious "religiously dominated parts of the world"?

There is an atheist community in those countries, its just the whole "death to apostates and heretics" thing that prevents them from sharing it too loudly or in a manner that is not anonymous. There are atheists and Ex-Muslims from both Iran and Saudi speaking out on Twitter for example:

https://twitter.com/SaudiExMuslims
https://twitter.com/MaryamNamazie

Its also why its laughable when I see or hear that Islam is the most dominant and fastest growing religion in the world. Do people boasting about that claim honestly think there isn't a massive portion of those numbers that are terrified to admit they'd prefer to have nothing to do with the religion?

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #524 on: August 30, 2017, 12:00:13 pm »
Hard to argue with most of that, religion as a societal construct is pretty pervasive and embedded in our culture - although arguably quite a bit less than it used to be (in the UK, anyway). Like it or not, it is part of our culture, irrespective of the 'truth' or otherwise of the beliefs, has shaped us in many ways we probably can't explicitly identify - some 'good' and some 'bad', and can't just be isolated and stripped out. Baby and the bathwater etc. Although I think the secularisation of our institutions and, ultimately, of our culture, is somewhat inevitable albeit with a fair few bumps ahead...

I'm no historian, but it would seem to me that some/many/most societies throughout history have 'fallen' upon gods and deities to explain the world, and, at least sometimes, done so independently? Sometimes I think it's hard for us with our contemporary understanding and science lens to empathise with just how baffling the world most have appeared to most of humans throughout history, and how appealing supernatural explanations must have been. Perhap's it's in our nature (used loosely not literally) to seek answers to not just explain the world, but to understand the 'why'?


What are these good things religion has given us?

How do you know parts of humanity turned to gods independently?

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #525 on: August 30, 2017, 12:20:46 pm »
Quote

Its also why its laughable when I see or hear that Islam is the most dominant and fastest growing religion in the world.


When I was protesting Scientology outside their building in Manchester in 2008, I got talking to one of them who defensively told me Scientology was the fastest growing religion.

Seems a popular marketing slogan

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #526 on: August 30, 2017, 12:22:45 pm »


When I was protesting Scientology outside their building in Manchester in 2008, I got talking to one of them who defensively told me Scientology was the fastest growing religion.

Seems a popular marketing slogan

Probably right. It doubled its numbers in that year. From 1 to 2.
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Offline ggcc14

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #527 on: August 30, 2017, 12:23:25 pm »
I'm no historian, but it would seem to me that some/many/most societies throughout history have 'fallen' upon gods and deities to explain the world, and, at least sometimes, done so independently? Sometimes I think it's hard for us with our contemporary understanding and science lens to empathise with just how baffling the world most have appeared to most of humans throughout history, and how appealing supernatural explanations must have been. Perhap's it's in our nature (used loosely not literally) to seek answers to not just explain the world, but to understand the 'why'?
Hundreds to thousands of years ago people put all of their emphasis on the sun.. how when it is showing - life is going on, the majority of life on earth would thrive from sunlight - it would be worshipped for allowing our existance.

In Ancient Egypt it was Horus who was worshipped who's name meant light, his arch nemesis was Set (dark) presumably where we get the term sunset from. Horus was said to have been born on Decemb 25th, born of a virgin and has 12 disciples, he was known to perform miracles and ultimately was killed via crucifixion only to be resurrected 3 days later, sound familiar? Attis of Greece 1800 years later also had an almost identical story. Krishna whilst not following all of the above was too born of a virgin, performed miracles, star in the East signalling his coming, resurrected..

Jao of Nepal, Dionysus of Greece, Mithra of Persia (Sunday day of worship) all follow a very similar narrative and one that has been recycled for thousands of years. The reason the 24/25th of December has so much emphasis placed upon it is because that's when astronomically Sirius 'the star of the east' is inline with the three brightest stars Orions belt, those four stars all align in accordance to the sun rise on that day the 25th Decem (the birth of sun/son).  I don't really know anything about the religion of Islam but i'd presume it's something of the the same ilk, religious teachings that ultimately revolve around the significance of the solar system.

So my perception of religion is just that, a story book which is given a nice gloss over with some name changes and slight alterations to try and remain current and inkeeping with modern society every thousand years or so, obviously that's not really the case in the Western world anymore.

I feel as though religion was more understandable and had more use back then, farmers would pray for sunlight and rainfall to maintain harvest and livelihood, i'd like to think now we know whatever we think in our consciousness or say aloud has no bearing on the weather we get this afternoon. I also feel as our standard of life increases that the need for a saviour or help from above is diminished and as a result we can get by and enjoy our life without seeking more/explanations/a higher being.

Personally I don't feel as though I need to follow a list of rules which have been doing the rounds for thousands of years to maintain a complete, healthy and productive life in which I do not harm others. But I do too believe that religion has helped billions upon billions of people over the ages live a somewhat pure and moral existence. On the flip side it's also been the cause of many wars and death, I feel as though the problem today is the huge chasm in the way some religious and atheist people believe we should conduct our livelihood - this creates a friction and animosity, which I think has previously not been the case - or at least not to this extent.

Ultimately to summarize my ramblings, I think most religions preach very similar ideas but in a different construct - I also believe religion was very important and helpful a long time ago but it's usefulness is ever evaporating. I also think some day religion will become defunct but that is a long way off, that's if we see it before global warming puts an end to us all (a process which is being hurried by man not an angry god).

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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #528 on: August 30, 2017, 12:25:41 pm »
Islam is the fastest growing religion, for reasons that have nothing to do with the religion itself and everything to do with the demographics in those parts of the world where the religion is dominant, e.g. younger populations and higher birth rates.

Offline ggcc14

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #529 on: August 30, 2017, 12:26:59 pm »
Islam is the fastest growing religion, for reasons that have nothing to do with the religion itself and everything to do with the demographics in those parts of the world where the religion is dominant, e.g. younger populations and higher birth rates.
But it's the fastest growing religion world wide? including Europe? Which is probably why anti-islamic sentiment is rising too.

Take this article for example: (if you click the link it has an interesting graphic which remarks on other minorities)

http://www.euronews.com/2017/08/25/almost-a-fifth-of-europeans-wouldnt-want-to-live-next-door-to-a-muslim

Almost a fifth of participants from five European countries would not want to have a Muslim as a neighbour, a recent study found.

When the study’s organisers asked people from Germany, the UK, Austria, France and Switzerland if they would want to have Muslims as neighbours, an average of just under 20% gave a negative response.

A representative sample of more than 10,000 people outside the Muslim community was read a list including ten different groups of people and asked if “they would not want to have them as neighbours, or if it didn’t matter to them”.

An average of 31% of people across the five countries said they would not want to live next door to refugees in general, with Austria (26%) and the UK (25%) showing the highest rate of negative responses.

Only 1% of participants from all five countries responded negatively when asked about Christian neighbours and 3.6% of all participants wouldn’t want to have an atheist neighbour.

When it came to Jewish neighbours, all countries had a negative response rate below 10%, with Austria displaying the highest (8%).

Participants from the UK expressed an unwillingness to have families with a lot of children living next door with a higher-than-average negative response rate of 28%, whereas the average in other countries was 15% or under.

The study makes up part of a wider investigation into the integration and acceptance of Muslims in Europe in the Religion Monitor 2017.

It found that “despite social tensions, integration is making clear progress”.

To ensure the success of integration going forward, society must accept cultural and religious diversity and build an interreligious and intercultural community, the report concludes.



« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 12:33:40 pm by ggcc14 »
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #530 on: August 30, 2017, 12:28:50 pm »
But it's the fastest growing religion world wide? including Europe?

Yes, for the same reasons. Bear in mind, the Muslim population in Europe is still small, relatively speaking. It's just the growth rate that's high.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #531 on: August 30, 2017, 12:35:35 pm »
Is it "alive and kicking" in Iran or Saudi, just to mention the two most obvious "religiously dominated parts of the world"?

It would be but they all get killed as soon as they utter a word. I have quite a few friends from Iran though and not one of them is religious. They hate religion if anything and can't wait to get out and shed their religious veils (the women). Saudi seems to be so extreme that people fear talking out about their religious beliefs from my experience. But that doesn't count for much as I don't know many Saudis.
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Offline ToneLa

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #532 on: August 30, 2017, 12:39:22 pm »
Islam is the fastest growing religion, for reasons that have nothing to do with the religion itself and everything to do with the demographics in those parts of the world where the religion is dominant, e.g. younger populations and higher birth rates.

If you define every non believer as atheist then I wonder if that would be faster growing

Or more extreme, non-Islam is growing faster than Islam, surely?

I for one don't base my decisions around faith around how "Popular" it is, it's whether it's right and works for me. But at least for me, it's a decision, and my parents didn't force me to believe in anything, and you can't even name what I believe other than "basically doesn't care with a bit of Buddhist aspects (in the sense of understanding the sense of suffering) from my own dealings with life and death, seeing things, travelling the world, experiencing other cultures with an open mind, all thrown in in terms of defining how to be compassionate, peaceful and moral"

If there's a label for being a bit spiritual in terms of practical conduct without God having to come into it then slap it on me :)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 12:55:44 pm by ToneLa »

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #533 on: August 30, 2017, 12:48:56 pm »
It would be but they all get killed as soon as they utter a word. I have quite a few friends from Iran though and not one of them is religious. They hate religion if anything and can't wait to get out and shed their religious veils (the women).

Yeah Iranians you meet outside of Iran (like me) are pretty much non believers to a man (and woman). In Iran itself there's a much higher ratio of religious to non-religious people. A rough rule of thumb would be middle class educated people in Iran tend not to be religious, working class/non-educated people tend to be religious.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #534 on: August 30, 2017, 01:06:44 pm »
Yeah Iranians you meet outside of Iran (like me) are pretty much non believers to a man (and woman). In Iran itself there's a much higher ratio of religious to non-religious people. A rough rule of thumb would be middle class educated people in Iran tend not to be religious, working class/non-educated people tend to be religious.
How safe would it be to come out as an atheist in Iran?
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #535 on: August 30, 2017, 01:10:17 pm »
How safe would it be to come out as an atheist in Iran?

Come out to who? Your friends and family? Very safe in most cases I'd imagine.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #536 on: August 30, 2017, 01:11:35 pm »
Come out to who? Your friends and family? Very safe in most cases I'd imagine.
If it became publically known?

Ok, or would it depend where you lived etc?
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #537 on: August 30, 2017, 01:17:30 pm »
If it became publically known?

Ok, or would it depend where you lived etc?

If you're a nobody just minding your own business and not screaming from the roof tops about why atheism is the road to go down it would probably just be the case that no one cares enough (bigger fish to fry). Especially if the only people who really know who you are are like minded.

Maybe in some backwards village it'll be a bigger deal.

If you're in the public eye or if someone has a massive grudge against you & keeps pushing it with the authorities I'd imagine it wouldn't have a happy ending.

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #538 on: August 30, 2017, 01:30:37 pm »
I think even in parts of the USA being Atheist is a thing.

In the UK it's just taken for granted, you don't seem to need to define yourself as much

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #539 on: August 30, 2017, 01:40:12 pm »
Islam is the fastest growing religion, for reasons that have nothing to do with the religion itself and everything to do with the demographics in those parts of the world where the religion is dominant, e.g. younger populations and higher birth rates.

Fwiw I didn't necessarily dispute the claim, but I do think the societal pressure endemic in most Muslim communities distort the figures.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #540 on: August 30, 2017, 01:43:24 pm »
Fwiw I didn't necessarily dispute the claim, but I do think the societal pressure endemic in most Muslim communities distort the figures.

Okay, but societal pressure is a perfectly valid reason for being religious, far more valid than actually believing it. At least societal pressure makes some sort of sense.

Offline Yanwoo

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #541 on: August 30, 2017, 01:57:38 pm »
What are these good things religion has given us?

At a macro level, it's hard to assert definitely one way or another, given the inherent complexity, interweaving of religion with our cultures over 1000s of years, and difficulty in making comparisons; especially for me, as a lay person in this context. No doubt, without religion the world would look very, very different. 'better' or 'worse' - no idea, we can speculate but that's all it would be. And some do. But highly, highly speculative. And, of course, you can't do this at the level of 'religion'; there are vast differences between religions, how they have operated within societies, through different time periods, and within religions there are vast differences, and, of course, religions are made up of individuals who also vary, with much disagreement, so...

This thread started out with morality, and some argue religion has a small/medium/large role in the formation of our morals, and how they have become embedded in our society and law over time. No idea. Maybe.

At a micro level, it's easier if we're looking for contribution, we can look at the 'good' works organised by faith based groups. Here's a sample of 100: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/17/100-religious-groups-doing-good_n_5460739.html

How do you know parts of humanity turned to gods independently?

I don't

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #542 on: August 30, 2017, 04:14:36 pm »
Turn to philosophy or psychology

Edit: if you want or need to, like.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 04:20:45 pm by ToneLa »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #543 on: August 30, 2017, 04:48:11 pm »
Some are...the "explict, strong" ones (using H. Smith's categories)
I don't think atheism needs a qualifier in this way.

Personally, I used to pretend to be open minded about god; you know, like "well I'm not persuaded by any of these religions but I suppose there might be a creator of some sort". But that would have made me agnostic, not atheist. I eventually admitted to myself I was just being polite. I still try to be polite to the delusional though, there's no future in trying to convert them away from their comfort blankets. It's mostly a harmless delusion after all (except when the imaginary friend in the sky persuades you to do things like bomb Iraq).

But I digress. Atheism is just atheism; it means writing "None" on the form in the box marked "Religion". That's all there is to it.

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #544 on: August 30, 2017, 04:50:56 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/GS3BZs5fx3Q?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/GS3BZs5fx3Q?fs=1</a>
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Offline Titi Camara

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #545 on: August 30, 2017, 04:51:29 pm »
If there is a god s/he's wearing a PVC Dalmatian consume in a sex dungeon and s/he's working!


Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #546 on: August 30, 2017, 04:58:20 pm »

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #547 on: August 30, 2017, 05:03:50 pm »
Putting that into an image doesn't make it true

Atheist is a label

People are people until you slap a label on em

I'm not a religious person, not defending religion, but words like cult are clearly in line what what people said about you yesterday

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #548 on: August 30, 2017, 05:10:07 pm »
I thought you were putting me on your ignore list?

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #549 on: August 30, 2017, 05:11:41 pm »
You are so I can identify you, it doesn't mean I can't look at your posts or respond to you or have an opinion. You have an ignore list too  :)

Offline mallin9

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #550 on: August 30, 2017, 05:34:47 pm »
Some great discussion in this thread.  I enjoyed Giggsy's ramblings and the insight of other posters.  Ta
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #551 on: August 30, 2017, 05:49:53 pm »
Putting that into an image doesn't make it true

Atheist is a label

People are people until you slap a label on em

I'm not a religious person, not defending religion, but words like cult are clearly in line what what people said about you yesterday

There's nothing wrong with challenging and criticising, or even ridiculing religion. It's not an attack on adherents personally to assert that some sects of religions appear indistinguishable from cults.

I'm regularly questioned with incredulity by my faithful friends and family, but they rarely act with the same courtesy I afford them when I question them back.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #552 on: August 30, 2017, 06:06:01 pm »
If there is a god s/he's wearing a PVC Dalmatian consume in a sex dungeon and s/he's working!



Surprised there hasn't been more outrage over Humperdoo yet....




Offline ToneLa

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #553 on: August 30, 2017, 06:06:16 pm »
There's nothing wrong with challenging and criticising, or even ridiculing religion. It's not an attack on adherents personally to assert that some sects of religions appear indistinguishable from cults.

I'm regularly questioned with incredulity by my faithful friends and family, but they rarely act with the same courtesy I afford them when I question them back.

I don't disagree, but as someone who doesn't identify as atheist as it gave no comfort when watching family members die - and neither did religion - using language like cults seems to sneer a bit.

I'm someone who protests scientology as a cult, I'm not exactly on the fence.

I just think when someone is an atheist it doesn't need to automatically come with a disparaging attitude towards peaceful people who have a faith - they do exist

The image Corkboy posted was endemic of that


Offline ggcc14

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #554 on: August 30, 2017, 06:30:59 pm »
I don't disagree, but as someone who doesn't identify as atheist as it gave no comfort when watching family members die - and neither did religion - using language like cults seems to sneer a bit.
is it not about a rationale thought process which results in an answer you feel best answers such a question, rather than what just gives you comfort in a moment of need?
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #555 on: August 30, 2017, 06:39:02 pm »
is it not about a rationale thought process which results in an answer you feel best answers such a question, rather than what just gives you comfort in a moment of need?

Why are you framing that as a question?

I tried to see sense in seeing loved ones suffer and die and atheism did no more to explain it than god.

I'd rather not be labelled as atheist, my choice. What do you need from me? I've nowt to hide.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #556 on: August 30, 2017, 06:39:41 pm »
Personally I don't feel as though I need to follow a list of rules which have been doing the rounds for thousands of years to maintain a complete, healthy and productive life in which I do not harm others. But I do too believe that religion has helped billions upon billions of people over the ages live a somewhat pure and moral existence. On the flip side it's also been the cause of many wars and death, I feel as though the problem today is the huge chasm in the way some religious and atheist people believe we should conduct our livelihood - this creates a friction and animosity, which I think has previously not been the case - or at least not to this extent.

Ultimately to summarize my ramblings, I think most religions preach very similar ideas but in a different construct - I also believe religion was very important and helpful a long time ago but it's usefulness is ever evaporating. I also think some day religion will become defunct but that is a long way off, that's if we see it before global warming puts an end to us all (a process which is being hurried by man not an angry god).

Thanks for the response, lots of new stuff in there for me! And some thoughtful and balanced views.

As some say, perhaps the problem is 'bad' religion, not religion per se? Beneath the dogma and literal understanding, beyond questions of the existence of god, most religions contain plenty of wisdom and thought provoking philosophy. It's a shame that often gets lost in the noise.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #557 on: August 30, 2017, 06:45:27 pm »
Thanks for the response, lots of new stuff in there for me! And some thoughtful and balanced views.

As some say, perhaps the problem is 'bad' religion, not religion per se? Beneath the dogma and literal understanding, beyond questions of the existence of god, most religions contain plenty of wisdom and thought provoking philosophy. It's a shame that often gets lost in the noise.

I'd like to add onto this point that when I tried to see sense in seeing my mother turned into a suffering skeleton, I went the library and got out a book on philosophy and Allah wasn't in it and Jesus wasn't in it but Descartes was in it and Buddha was in it but I read loads of Dawkins and he dodged the Why I was looking for.

I think to some extent religion needs a practical aspect and that bleeds into philosophy and daily life.

I still don't think atheism can define itself without religion. It's like light defining itself without darkness.

It's fine to not believe. This thread perhaps has a poor premise - should be, What to believe and why? You can choose not to. I just don't want atheism slapped onto that for me.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #558 on: August 30, 2017, 07:32:04 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/GS3BZs5fx3Q?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/GS3BZs5fx3Q?fs=1</a>

Outrageously funny - and wise. Thank you. I keep forgetting what a brilliant comic that man is.
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #559 on: August 30, 2017, 08:04:44 pm »
Why are you framing that as a question?
Because it seems like you are merging the two questions of "is there a god?" and "why has my mother had to suffer this terrible illness?"

Two completely different things, sorry for your loss by the way mate.
IŽll say something that might surprise you. Real life is different to computer games.
I think Nadal is brilliant. One of the top 10 ever.