Author Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?  (Read 753938 times)

Offline Dull Tools

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15080 on: August 2, 2022, 11:38:39 am »



(Unbelievable how opaquely the laws are written.)

This is from the Twitter VAR nerd Dale Johnson
https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1554069359307505667?s=20&t=UHHXuTg47rhvP6wiTZW-ug

By his interpretation, because it's a rebound from a keeper's spill (unlike the Schmeichel incident last December) having it under control is not the issue, the issue is whether there's a foul on AdriŠn. (At least I think that's what he means.)

In my opinion, there clearly is a foul, but I also think that referees are hard on players who are a bit crap, e.g. AdriŠn, who is well-known to be a bit of a disaster. You get punished for spilling a shot inside your own six-yard box. It's like how Xhaka gets sent off for every rough tackle where other players with less bad reputations get away with it: it fits the pre-conceived narrative. To add to that narrative factor, AdriŠn probably would've gotten away with it if he'd have rolled around and pretended he was really hurt, or pretended it was a head injury.

From my point of view, it's a clear foul on AdriŠn, but AdriŠn has to do better to avoid getting in that situation and not leaving it in the hands of the refs who are shite. Mind you, he's our third choice keeper, so I don't expect much more and thought he did OK in the rest of the game. Scott Carson is City's third choice keeper and their second choice keeper (Steffen) wasn't much cop either in the FA Cup semi-final.

Also the linesman shouldn't be flagging in that situation having spent the last two seasons not flagging anything even when it was clearly offside. When they flag now, players will expect that it's not even close to being onside. (I think this is a cock-up rather than a change in procedure though.)
If Foden hasn't touched the ball then it is a clear foul on Adrian. Either way it should be a foul.

I agree that all our team stopped when the flag went up. They do really need to clarify that.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15081 on: August 2, 2022, 11:41:05 am »
It shouldnt have stood clearly, but I dont think its outrageous to say Adrian maybe should have done a little better with the initial shot. I know it was close range but it was pretty soft and straight at him.
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15082 on: August 2, 2022, 12:35:18 pm »
Agree to disagree. He palmed it into his own six yard area twice in the game. He should at least get it away from goal. If Alisson did that you wouldn't be happy. To be honest I don't expect much more. I was happy to see him clearing balls off the pitch, it's safe there. He was bad in 20/21, and I didn't expect him to get better out of the team while getting two years older. Like I said he's a solid number 3 who gets on well with the squad and I thought overall he had a decent game.

I don't think anyone would be blaming Alisson if he did it, and I'd agree with that view.

It shouldnt have stood clearly, but I dont think its outrageous to say Adrian maybe should have done a little better with the initial shot. I know it was close range but it was pretty soft and straight at him.

The shot is from 7 yards out. Sure it wasn't the greatest strike but I think it's really harsh to expect any goalkeeper (Alisson included) to do anything more than simply stop it from going in. If he'd conceded from that initial shot I don't think anyone would be blaming him for the goal.
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15083 on: August 2, 2022, 12:37:54 pm »
Agree to disagree. He palmed it into his own six yard area twice in the game. He should at least get it away from goal. If Alisson did that you wouldn't be happy.
Alisson has done the same. Indeed, it was the biggest 'criticism' of him before he joined us that he tended to do that a bit. It's something that happens to all keepers at times. It's often a function of exact relative positions of keeper and ball and opposition players where palming into that area ends up being the only possible option if you are going to manage to make a save. I'd count it as something that's inevitable occasionally. Just, hopefully, not too often from a top keeper.
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Offline gazzalfc

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15084 on: August 2, 2022, 12:43:28 pm »
Premier league will release the audio of VAR decisions after matches from this season...

It wont be live and I'm sure the PGMOL will make sure their ducks are in a row before its released but its a step

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15085 on: August 2, 2022, 12:46:54 pm »
Premier league will release the audio of VAR decisions after matches from this season...

It wont be live and I'm sure the PGMOL will make sure their ducks are in a row before its released but its a step
That sounds like good news. It might at least make refs and VAR think a bit less careless
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15086 on: August 2, 2022, 12:47:56 pm »
Premier league will release the audio of VAR decisions after matches from this season...

It wont be live and I'm sure the PGMOL will make sure their ducks are in a row before its released but its a step

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8uM0zOBuSw
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15087 on: August 2, 2022, 04:58:52 pm »
I think that one important note here is that the rule says that the GK is deemed to be in control of the ball when he has it "between the hands", not that they are deemed to be in control if they have two hands on the ball.  In the images on the last page Adrian has two hands on the ball, but the ball is not between his hands (or between his hands and the ground, or his hands and the ground) and he is instead trying to pull the ball back into his body.  For me he was never in control of the ball even by the definition posted, and would only have been in control once it was between his hands and his body.

It also states the GK cannot be challenged by an opponent when in control of the ball, but Foden and Adrian were competing for a loose ball, and at the time of the challenge Adrian did not have control (if he ever did).  If Adrian dives on the ball and then Foden comes in from the side and challenges him then it is a foul, but Adrian dives around Foden to get to the ball, so there was nothing really that Foden can do to avoid contact with Adrian. 

Either way though, the on-field referee didn't give a foul and I don't think that it was a clear and obvious error not to do so, and with VAR that is ultimately the question, not whether it was a foul in the first place.  If Pawson blows for a foul then VAR doesn't overturn that decision either IMO.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15088 on: August 2, 2022, 04:59:04 pm »
Premier league will release the audio of VAR decisions after matches from this season...

It wont be live and I'm sure the PGMOL will make sure their ducks are in a row before its released but its a step

They did this for the MLS returns tournament if I remember correctly. So pretty sure this is a Howard Webb initiative.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15089 on: August 2, 2022, 05:27:39 pm »
I think that one important note here is that the rule says that the GK is deemed to be in control of the ball when he has it "between the hands", not that they are deemed to be in control if they have two hands on the ball.  In the images on the last page Adrian has two hands on the ball, but the ball is not between his hands (or between his hands and the ground, or his hands and the ground) and he is instead trying to pull the ball back into his body.  For me he was never in control of the ball even by the definition posted, and would only have been in control once it was between his hands and his body.

It also states the GK cannot be challenged by an opponent when in control of the ball, but Foden and Adrian were competing for a loose ball, and at the time of the challenge Adrian did not have control (if he ever did).  If Adrian dives on the ball and then Foden comes in from the side and challenges him then it is a foul, but Adrian dives around Foden to get to the ball, so there was nothing really that Foden can do to avoid contact with Adrian. 

Either way though, the on-field referee didn't give a foul and I don't think that it was a clear and obvious error not to do so, and with VAR that is ultimately the question, not whether it was a foul in the first place.  If Pawson blows for a foul then VAR doesn't overturn that decision either IMO.

There is precendent

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11913359/ref-watch-virgil-van-dijk-fouled-david-de-gea-for-liverpools-disallowed-goal-says-dermot-gallagher

Having 2 hands touching the ball is deemed having it under control according to Dermot Gallagher
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Offline Dr Stu-Pid

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15090 on: August 2, 2022, 06:03:37 pm »
There is precendent

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11913359/ref-watch-virgil-van-dijk-fouled-david-de-gea-for-liverpools-disallowed-goal-says-dermot-gallagher

Having 2 hands touching the ball is deemed having it under control according to Dermot Gallagher

That isn't precedent.  If Dermot Gallagher saying something was precedent then precedent would change almost every week depending on which referee he is trying to defend.

Also, with that incident when De Gea has two hands on the ball, you could certainly say that the ball was 'between his hands'.  Whether I think it was a foul or not, the VAR obviously felt that had VVD not made contact with De Gea he would have had control of the ball.  De Gea also has the ball 'between his hands' before any contact with VVD, and VVD is jumping towards De Gea, not De Gea towards VVD.  I don't think these two incidents are similar enough to compare IMO.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15091 on: August 2, 2022, 06:31:25 pm »
It is precendent. It's an example of a goalkeeper being deemed to have the ball under control and a goal being ruled out because an attacking player dispossess him.
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15092 on: August 2, 2022, 06:53:23 pm »
It shouldnt have stood clearly, but I dont think its outrageous to say Adrian maybe should have done a little better with the initial shot. I know it was close range but it was pretty soft and straight at him.

I think the fact that Foden doesn't get a clean contact caught him out. Adrian, like probably everyone in the stadium and watching on telly, expected that ball to go to his right, not come straight at him, he's tried to sweep it away to the side rather than knock it back into the 6yd area and just didn't get the contact he needed on the ball.
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15093 on: August 2, 2022, 07:19:05 pm »
It is precendent. It's an example of a goalkeeper being deemed to have the ball under control and a goal being ruled out because an attacking player dispossess him.

I think that you missed the joke that Dermot Gallagher would have said the exact opposite had VAR ruled the other way.  He has no consistency and contradicts himself from week to week and 90% of the time just sides with the referee or VAR.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15094 on: August 3, 2022, 06:49:18 am »
They did this for the MLS returns tournament if I remember correctly. So pretty sure this is a Howard Webb initiative.

i give it a week before they have it canned. for some insane reason as to protect the referee from any bias or some shit reason like upholding the integrity of the officials in the game.

we all know how well the PMGOL handle criticism of their own.


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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15095 on: August 3, 2022, 03:58:27 pm »
https://www.espn.in/football/uefa-champions-league/story/4712286/champions-league-to-use-semi-automated-offside-technology-from-the-group-stage

Quote

UEFA has announced that it will start using the new Semi-Automated Offside Technology (SAOT) from the Champions League group stage this season.

It will also be in place for the UEFA Super Cup when Real Madrid play Eintracht Frankfurt on April 10, with Premier League referee Michael Oliver appointed to the game.

The Artificial Intelligence (AI)-based system will replace the VARs manually linking lines across the pitch to players and selecting when the ball has been kicked. It is intended to make decisions quicker and more accurate while also providing improved visualisation for fans.

A sensor will be placed in the centre of match ball, recording data 500 times a second to detect when the ball has been kicked. All players will be mapped to create an AI model of their position -- a similar method to goal-line technology.

The time needed to make a VAR offside decision should be reduced from an average of 70 seconds to 25, while fans inside the stadiums and viewers watching on television will be provided with a 3D animation to clearly show the offside.

FIFA announced on July 1 that the technology had been approved for use and it was expected that World Cup would be the first major competition that would feature it. FIFA trialled it in its competitions for the last three years, culminating in live tests at the Club World Cup in Qatar in February when Alameri Zayed of Al-Jazira was the first player to have a goal disallowed using SAOT.

At the same time, UEFA has carried out a total of 188 tests since 2020, including all matches in last season's UEFA Champions League, the knockout stage of the UEFA Women's Champions League and the Women's Euro 2022.

"UEFA is constantly looking for new technological solutions to improve the game and support the work of the referees," said Roberto Rosetti, UEFA's chief refereeing officer. "This innovative system will allow VAR teams to determine offside situations quickly and more accurately, enhancing the flow of the game and the consistency of the decisions.

"The system is ready to be used in official matches and implemented at each Champions League venue."

Offside decisions should only take longer than the average of 25 seconds if they involve multiple offside elements, or if there is a more complicated subjective aspect such as the attacking player interfering with play.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15096 on: August 3, 2022, 04:25:43 pm »



(Unbelievable how opaquely the laws are written.)

This is from the Twitter VAR nerd Dale Johnson
https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1554069359307505667?s=20&t=UHHXuTg47rhvP6wiTZW-ug

By his interpretation, because it's a rebound from a keeper's spill (unlike the Schmeichel incident last December) having it under control is not the issue, the issue is whether there's a foul on AdriŠn. (At least I think that's what he means.)

In my opinion, there clearly is a foul, but I also think that referees are hard on players who are a bit crap, e.g. AdriŠn, who is well-known to be a bit of a disaster. You get punished for spilling a shot inside your own six-yard box. It's like how Xhaka gets sent off for every rough tackle where other players with less bad reputations get away with it: it fits the pre-conceived narrative. To add to that narrative factor, AdriŠn probably would've gotten away with it if he'd have rolled around and pretended he was really hurt, or pretended it was a head injury.

From my point of view, it's a clear foul on AdriŠn, but AdriŠn has to do better to avoid getting in that situation and not leaving it in the hands of the refs who are shite. Mind you, he's our third choice keeper, so I don't expect much more and thought he did OK in the rest of the game. Scott Carson is City's third choice keeper and their second choice keeper (Steffen) wasn't much cop either in the FA Cup semi-final.

Also the linesman shouldn't be flagging in that situation having spent the last two seasons not flagging anything even when it was clearly offside. When they flag now, players will expect that it's not even close to being onside. (I think this is a cock-up rather than a change in procedure though.)

That's not broken down correctly as I said further back:

There are three parts separated by the word 'or':

The qualification relates to the third part.

The last one is for situations such as the goalie holding the ball in his outstretched hand for a goal kick.

1. Between the hands (two hands) - Adrian had it between the hands)

OR

2. Between the hand (singular) and any surface. The 'surface can be the ground or the body. So one hand and one surface.

OR

3. By touching it with any part of the hands or arms. Item 3 and only item 3 is qualified with the words about a rebaound or a save.

Apart from the basic grammar, it would fucking ridiculous to apply the 'rebound or save' to the first instance. If that was the case, a goalie could make a world class save, tip the ball onto the bar and catch it in two hands (the ball is in control if it's between two hands) and any opponent could kick it out of his hands - because he caught it after he made a save.

Utterly fucking ridiculous.



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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15098 on: August 6, 2022, 01:59:53 pm »
This league is absolutely rotten

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15099 on: August 6, 2022, 02:01:01 pm »
What an improvement
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15100 on: August 6, 2022, 02:01:48 pm »
New season, same shite. Never a pen.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15101 on: August 6, 2022, 02:01:50 pm »
This league is absolutely rotten

Yep.

Absolute shocker that (or not)!

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15102 on: August 6, 2022, 02:02:05 pm »
Done with season not even a game in.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15103 on: August 6, 2022, 02:02:50 pm »
 :butt

OPENING GAME OF THE SEASON! 37 SHITE TO GO|!

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15104 on: August 6, 2022, 02:10:45 pm »
Done with season not even a game in.

Same here.

I'm literally shaking with anger, it's not good for my mental health, which is far from good anyway.
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15105 on: August 6, 2022, 02:12:47 pm »
Absolutely shocking yet completely expected refereeing for both their goals.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15106 on: August 6, 2022, 02:13:38 pm »
The Howard Webb era?

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15107 on: August 6, 2022, 02:16:35 pm »
Has this bloke got any previous with us? Heís been appalling, literally given them everything
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15108 on: August 6, 2022, 02:18:38 pm »
Has this bloke got any previous with us? Heís been appalling, literally given them everything

His brother (Bobby) was one of the worst refs this league ever had. Must run in the family

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15109 on: August 6, 2022, 02:18:58 pm »
Truly, Madely, Shitly
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15110 on: August 6, 2022, 02:21:56 pm »
His brother (Bobby) was one of the worst refs this league ever had. Must run in the family

Yeah he was dogÖ.shit
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15111 on: August 6, 2022, 02:24:15 pm »
First half was about 10 horror slide tackles, ignored the lot, second half has been about 10 horror dives and he's given the lot.  Utterly disgraceful.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15113 on: August 6, 2022, 02:29:47 pm »
The Howard Webb era?
He has not started full time i believe

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15114 on: August 6, 2022, 02:31:51 pm »
He has not started full time i believe

Ahhh so this is refs trying to catch his eye

Heíd have liked that today
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Offline Chakan

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15115 on: August 6, 2022, 02:35:11 pm »
Riley, Webb, stray cat, who cares it's all the same.

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15116 on: August 6, 2022, 02:36:19 pm »
He has not started full time i believe
Christ! Imagine when he IS full time!  :o
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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15117 on: August 6, 2022, 02:36:31 pm »
Ahhh so this is refs trying to catch his eye

Heíd have liked that today
Pretty sure he still with MLs till the end of the MLS season and starting the role with PL right now and fully taking over during the World Cup break.
The 1st Fulham goal could have been called for a foul too.

Offline MonsLibpool

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15118 on: August 6, 2022, 04:35:15 pm »
The ref was so bad. Nothing has changed.

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Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee - It's not for everyone / Bit shit innit?
« Reply #15119 on: August 6, 2022, 07:08:08 pm »
The ref was so bad. Nothing has changed.

Nor will it change. Howard Webb is not the light at the end of the tunnel, heís a shit packed train with no brakes.