Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[Kekule]

If it was role reversal and we were top getting all the decisions and United floundering with every big decision going against them, Neville would be going beserk on Sky. Carragher doesn't give a fuck and you've got the likes of Murphy sticking the boot into Salah instead of ever backing the club. Thompson off Sky now as well, so there's nobody left with enough of a media platform who cares about the club and will tell it like it us.

Case in point the late tackle on Mane in the box.  If that happened on Rashford or Martial then Neville would have been talking about it for 5 minutes, at least, and saying United should have had a penalty. He’d have brought it up at full time too. His comments would have been mentioned on the main sports websites, some other refs would have been asked their opinion.  Now they might not have got the penalty in that game, but people’s memory of the game would be of that incident, and that they were denied a penalty that cost them.

We get “that’s good defending, he’s done just enough to put the forward off there” and no more said.

If you’re a ref which side are you more likely to give a penalty to next time you see something like that?

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

The club are soft, we know that, but we need more high profile people batting for us in the media because it's the media that set the agenda.

If it was role reversal and we were top getting all the decisions and United floundering with every big decision going against them, Neville would be going beserk on Sky. Carragher doesn't give a fuck and you've got the likes of Murphy sticking the boot into Salah instead of ever backing the club. Thompson off Sky now as well, so there's nobody left with enough of a media platform who cares about the club and will tell it like it us.

This is a bit controversial, but I think it’s time that the LFC journos, podcasters etc stepped up a bit. There’s plenty of people that have built good careers on the back of the club. Unless I’ve missed stuff that they’ve written, their silence has been deafening.

Tomkins has done a few good pieces backed up as usual by specific examples, but I’m not sure they received too much attention.

I honestly think that because of COVID, existing broadcasting deals are under threat, us pissing the league last year didn’t help and this year they need a race. I’m not saying that as a result of that refs are fucking us over, but an 8 way title race will no doubt help keep broadcasters hungry.

Selling games direct to the public can’t come soon enough for me, and when it does the broadcasters will only have themselves to blame, because they have made the game almost unwatchable.

[rob1966]

The club are soft, we know that, but we need more high profile people batting for us in the media because it's the media that set the agenda.

If it was role reversal and we were top getting all the decisions and United floundering with every big decision going against them, Neville would be going beserk on Sky. Carragher doesn't give a fuck and you've got the likes of Murphy sticking the boot into Salah instead of ever backing the club. Thompson off Sky now as well, so there's nobody left with enough of a media platform who cares about the club and will tell it like it us.

All of this will eventually lead to the club leaving the PL and joining a European Super League. If I owned the club, I would move heaven and earth to make it happen, fuck the corrupt PL, fuck clubs like West Ham, Burnley and Sheff Utd, fuck the PGMOL and fuck Sky/BT. We're the biggest club the PL have, we're European Royalty, respected like Bayern, Real and Barca and the league and media treats us like shit.

[free_at_last]

This is a bit controversial, but I think it’s time that the LFC journos, podcasters etc stepped up a bit. There’s plenty of people that have built good careers on the back of the club. Unless I’ve missed stuff that they’ve written, their silence has been deafening.

Tomkins has done a few good pieces backed up as usual by specific examples, but I’m not sure they received too much attention.

I honestly think that because of COVID, existing broadcasting deals are under threat, us pissing the league last year didn’t help and this year they need a race. I’m not saying that as a result of that refs are fucking us over, but an 8 way title race will no doubt help keep broadcasters hungry.

Selling games direct to the public can’t come soon enough for me, and when it does the broadcasters will only have themselves to blame, because they have made the game almost unwatchable.

Anyone would think we are some shit stain club from the back of beyond. How are we allowing this to go on? You don't need to be some paranoid scyzophrenic to see whats going on. We are ruled by a gang of middle aged tossers(and whose ruling them?).
https://twitter.com/Road_End_Red/status/1346478251124822022?s=19

[Fromola]

Case in point the late tackle on Mane in the box.  If that happened on Rashford or Martial then Neville would have been talking about it for 5 minutes, at least, and saying United should have had a penalty. He’d have brought it up at full time too. His comments would have been mentioned on the main sports websites, some other refs would have been asked their opinion.  Now they might not have got the penalty in that game, but people’s memory of the game would be of that incident, and that they were denied a penalty that cost them.

We get “that’s good defending, he’s done just enough to put the forward off there” and no more said.

If you’re a ref which side are you more likely to give a penalty to next time you see something like that?

It's exactly the sort of soft power Clattenburg was insinuating Ferguson had over referees and interestingly went to great lengths to point out it's no longer the case. The desperate denial says it all.

Now it's held by the likes of Gary Neville to exert influence, while Carragher saves his ire for a handball given against Spurs earlier in the season over any of the countless calls we've had against us and rarely ever brings it up.

United, still, are far more street smart than we are. They're masters at exploiting things (i.e. finding a cheat code to win countless penalties), while we're always Mr nice guy.

It's also why Neville has gone from Mr reasonable and fair minded as a pundit, to basically MUTV. He's realised he can help United from the pundit chair. Carragher's either not arsed or compromised himself too much by spitting at fans and sits on the fence as a result.

[Fromola]

This is a bit controversial, but I think it’s time that the LFC journos, podcasters etc stepped up a bit. There’s plenty of people that have built good careers on the back of the club. Unless I’ve missed stuff that they’ve written, their silence has been deafening.

Tomkins has done a few good pieces backed up as usual by specific examples, but I’m not sure they received too much attention.

I honestly think that because of COVID, existing broadcasting deals are under threat, us pissing the league last year didn’t help and this year they need a race. I’m not saying that as a result of that refs are fucking us over, but an 8 way title race will no doubt help keep broadcasters hungry.

Selling games direct to the public can’t come soon enough for me, and when it does the broadcasters will only have themselves to blame, because they have made the game almost unwatchable.

How many ex-players in the media actually give a fuck though?

Thompson and Hansen generation are gone now. The more partisan reds like Aldo or even Mcateer are on the in-house club channel rather than in the national media.

Also with United the likes of Neville and Rio Ferdinand are more partisan than ever because their mate is managing the club. If Gerrard was manager, for example, then the Carragher/Owen/Murphy generation would be more investing in backing us once in a while.

The likes of James Pearce on The Athletic, LFC fan pundits on some of the podcasts like the Guardian or TAW lads and lasses at least have a bit of a profile to kick up a fuss.

[Fromola]

Anyone would think we are some shit stain club from the back of beyond. How are we allowing this to go on? You don't need to be some paranoid scyzophrenic to see whats going on. We are ruled by a gang of middle aged tossers(and whose ruling them?).
https://twitter.com/Road_End_Red/status/1346478251124822022?s=19

I looked through the profile of the PL referees. A lot of the cabal are all 49/50 years old. For one thing it's too old to be keeping up with supreme, elite athletes in their 20s. It's also no surprise the cabal with the same age profile hang out together. Not to mention half the refs hail from the Manchester area.

The ones who are around 50 will at least be gone soon (they won't be refereeing much longer in their 50s in the PL) but Manc Riley is still there to school the next generation. Probably even handpick them.

[Ghost Town]

I looked through the profile of the PL referees. A lot of the cabal are all 49/50 years old. For one thing it's too old to be keeping up with supreme, elite athletes in their 20s. It's also no surprise the cabal with the same age profile hang out together. Not to mention half the refs hail from the Manchester area.

The ones who are around 50 will at least be gone soon (they won't be refereeing much longer in their 50s in the PL) but Manc Riley is still there to school the next generation. Probably even handpick them.

I know you love easy and simplistic answers, and if they can be negative towards someone, all the better, but this really isn't an age thing. Fitness is important for referees, but not athlete level fitness. Refs of all ages can be fit enough, and even younger ones can be unfit.

The important thing is their ability and character and how determined they are to be objective and impartial and not be pressured or driven by media agendas and how strong they are to resist powerful personalities attacking them, as Ferguson used to. In that regard strong, experienced individuals can sometimes be better than callow youths.

More important, though, is the nature and culture of PMGOL which will no doubt ensure that only the 'right kind' of referee is picked, one who follows what the head of the organisation wants them to do, withour demur. In which case age of the referees will be irrelevent.

If you think this is just about age then prepare to be disappointed as new younger influxes of refs continue to follow the lead of PMGOL, a private organisation which has no quality control nor any independent assessment or oversight - a situation that is at least potentially ripe for corruption.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

How many ex-players in the media actually give a fuck though?

Thompson and Hansen generation are gone now. The more partisan reds like Aldo or even Mcateer are on the in-house club channel rather than in the national media.

Also with United the likes of Neville and Rio Ferdinand are more partisan than ever because their mate is managing the club. If Gerrard was manager, for example, then the Carragher/Owen/Murphy generation would be more investing in backing us once in a while.

The likes of James Pearce on The Athletic, LFC fan pundits on some of the podcasts like the Guardian or TAW lads and lasses at least have a bit of a profile to kick up a fuss.

And it’s people in the last paragraph that I think need to be subtlety keeping this issue at the forefront of people’s minds.
There’s 2 external factors affecting us at the moment, both linked to reffing.
One is the influence that pundits have in shaping refs perceptions of players, I don’t need to give you the main example.
The other is the lamentable standard of officials in general, and how they use VAR.

Liverpool can start by trying to influence the debate more. Pundits are essentially lazy and prone to recency bias. If we start driving a fairer narrative and it is subsequently ignored, then we know beyond any doubt there’s agenda setting at a higher level. But I get the impression we don’t even try. How about compiling all the not given fouls on Salah for a start and getting some pundits to run with it.

Behind the scenes I would hope that we are pushing for a root and branch reform of reffing and VAR. personally I’d be going for something far bigger, but would take resolution of reffing as a compromise.

[RyanBabel19]

I agree with you about accountability from refs
Most seasons we get decisions against us as do all clubs, but this is different, there’s just so many, and they highlight a huge difference in approach.

I disagree that it’s pointless though. We are a big part of the draw for this league and we need to use this with the PL. we need to be putting pressure on them to go after PGMOL.

What we actually want is the laws to be clear to all and applied consistently. The best way to do that would be to radically change how VAR is used. What I’d be aiming for too though is a new man at the top of PGMOL to oversee the changes.

While I was at it, I’d want the clubs PR to improve so that when the likes of clattenburg see fit to openly have a go at us or our employees, we at least put out alternative stories, or depending how inaccurate or damaging the comments, get our lawyers to have a word.

We are just too soft, or at least appear that way. Obviously my full apologies if we are being a bit more assertive behind the scenes, which in my view would be the best way to go about things initially.

The issue is, who with any actual influence is backing the club?

You go it alone and you get punished further for it, almost like being made an example of. I've been saying for years the lack of accountability for refs allows them huge freedom to get massive calls wrong, look at VAR, it could hardly be used more terribly and people at first were complaining, the internet was riddled with images of stupid VAR decisions, but they dug their heels in and rode it out and now it's being complained about less and less. They now have no fans to protest these terrible decisions from the stands so they have even more freedom to fuck up. They've been taught they ARE the game and no one can question them so when a club makes noise, it makes little difference. Outside of Nuno at Wolves, who has dared to speak openly and honestly about them? There's a reason for that. Its literally set up that you get in trouble if you dare to question officials

We are in a position where if we speak it's dismissed, Klopps image amongst many other sides fans has even changed, he is now seen as a moaner who makes excused and Clattenburg was all too happy to play into that with his 'he doesn't like losing'... as I said at the time of the comment, who the fuck does?

The decision making has been awful but many people don't really seem to care. I'd love to see it brought to light how abysmal the officiating is, but its always spun to seem like everythings all good.

They simply are not going to take accountability, that would mean admitting fault and how often do you see people taught they are untouchable admitting fault? It's like asking a spoilt kid to be selfess

[Fromola]

I know you love easy and simplistic answers, and if they can be negative towards someone, all the better, but this really isn't an age thing. Fitness is important for referees, but not athlete level fitness. Refs of all ages can be fit enough, and even younger ones can be unfit.

The important thing is their ability and character and how determined they are to be objective and impartial and not be pressured or driven by media agendas and how strong they are to resist powerful personalities attacking them, as Ferguson used to. In that regard strong, experienced individuals can sometimes be better than callow youths.

More important, though, is the nature and culture of PMGOL which will no doubt ensure that only the 'right kind' of referee is picked, one who follows what the head of the organisation wants them to do, withour demur. In which case age of the referees will be irrelevent.

If you think this is just about age then prepare to be disappointed as new younger influxes of refs continue to follow the lead of PMGOL, a private organisation which has no quality control nor any independent assessment or oversight - a situation that is at least potentially ripe for corruption.

The point was there's a big group of them who are 49/50, so will naturally retire soon (Swarbrick and Jones did the other year at 52 and 50).

I didn't say it was just about age. I'm well aware the next batch of English PL refs will be crap, but at least we can learn to play the game a bit with them. This crop aren't going to give us anything until they retire.

[Rush 82]

Where will our voices be heard without it being dismissed as 'partisan' or 'sore losers'?

[Fromola]

The issue is, who with any actual influence is backing the club?

You go it alone and you get punished further for it, almost like being made an example of. I've been saying for years the lack of accountability for refs allows them huge freedom to get massive calls wrong, look at VAR, it could hardly be used more terribly and people at first were complaining, the internet was riddled with images of stupid VAR decisions, but they dug their heels in and rode it out and now it's being complained about less and less. They now have no fans to protest these terrible decisions from the stands so they have even more freedom to fuck up. They've been taught they ARE the game and no one can question them so when a club makes noise, it makes little difference. Outside of Nuno at Wolves, who has dared to speak openly and honestly about them? There's a reason for that. Its literally set up that you get in trouble if you dare to question officials

We are in a position where if we speak it's dismissed, Klopps image amongst many other sides fans has even changed, he is now seen as a moaner who makes excused and Clattenburg was all too happy to play into that with his 'he doesn't like losing'... as I said at the time of the comment, who the fuck does?

The decision making has been awful but many people don't really seem to care. I'd love to see it brought to light how abysmal the officiating is, but its always spun to seem like everythings all good.

They simply are not going to take accountability, that would mean admitting fault and how often do you see people taught they are untouchable admitting fault? It's like asking a spoilt kid to be selfess

I said after Brighton, Klopp should have been going beserk over the VAR and officials rather than the bloody kick off time where he'd already made his point. The players on social media were doing that.

Now if he moans about a ref it's "oh he's moaning again making excuses, it's not the kick off time now it's the referees".

[Ghost Town]

And it’s people in the last paragraph that I think need to be subtlety keeping this issue at the forefront of people’s minds.
There’s 2 external factors affecting us at the moment, both linked to reffing.

They don't really have the reach though, I don't think.

We just don't have the powerful friendly presence in the media. It's not a new thing and not entirely related to football. For decades Liverpool the city held an unofficial pariah status in the UK media and if you wanted to get on you didn't try too hard to become a champion of the city. Those few who did became seen as 'specialists' and notions like 'well he would say that' followed their work around like a bad smell. 

It's not surprising that this has bled over into sports media and that at this stage we still don't have much power in the media. Even ex-players quickly get a measure of what they need to do if they want to get on.

It will change, over time, hopefully, but that doesn't help us today. The club itself hasn't 'helped' in this regard by having a very reserved and downbeat PR/media presence for decades. I actually don't mind that. Less can often be more in PR, but with issues like this it can be a handicap. 

[Ghost Town]

The point was there's a big group of them who are 49/50, so will naturally retire soon (Swarbrick and Jones did the other year at 52 and 50).

I didn't say it was just about age. I'm well aware the next batch of English PL refs will be crap, but at least we can learn to play the game a bit with them. This crop aren't going to give us anything until they retire.

Right, but the issue is the unaccountability of PGMOL. Until that changes it won't matter if the current crop retire and new ones come in; they will largely be cut from the same cloth. Eveen if Riley is relaced, it'll just be the next guy and his mates all unaccountable, all backing each other, none of of them independently assessed or sanctioned.

[Fromola]

Right, but the issue is the unaccountability of PGMOL. Until that changes it won't matter if the current crop retire and new ones come in; they will largely be cut from the same cloth. Eveen if Riley is relaced, it'll just be the next guy and his mates all unaccountable, all backing each other, none of of them independently assessed or sanctioned.

But it'll come to the point where if you can't beat them join them. The club can play the game more and learn what works for other clubs; the players can learn to dive and cheat well and deploy the dark arts effectively to get the big decisions, like everyone else are doing; rather than try and play fair and get punished anyway. Scream and shout at the refs and get in their faces over every decision, or go over and demand they look at VAR over every decision. Sod winning the fair play league every year and get tough and brazen as our rivals.

Even Sean 'I hate diving' Dyche has his players diving well for pens and winning free kicks now.

Even concentrate on developing a British core with forwards, so they're a protected class with the media like Kane/Rashford/Vardy et al. If it's an unfair fight, you need to box smarter.

[Crosby Nick]

Think United have ‘only’ had one more penalty in the League than us. Although I’d argue ours have been a lot more obvious. And we’ve been denied others. We’ve also conceded 5 (as many as we’ve been awarded). How does that compare to the teams around us?

Given we’ve had infinitely more touches in the opposition box than our opponents have had in ours the main conclusion is it’s a lot easier for teams to get a penalty against us, than it is for us to get one against them.

[Fromola]

Think United have ‘only’ had one more penalty in the League than us. Although I’d argue ours have been a lot more obvious. And we’ve been denied others. We’ve also conceded 5 (as many as we’ve been awarded). How does that compare to the teams around us?

Given we’ve had infinitely more touches in the opposition box than our opponents have had in ours the main conclusion is it’s a lot easier for teams to get a penalty against us, than it is for us to get one against them.

We've conceded 6 pens in the league, more than we've been given. Plus the one Wolves were awarded which was so ridiculous even VAR had to overturn it.

[wz4jc3]

If I had my way, I would place VAR in bin and set fire to the shit that it is. Unfortunately, I do not get to decide on such things and I think we all know that it is here to stay.

I unfortunately turned on the Cheltenham vs City game at 80 mins tonight at 1-0 up. It was interesting watching the first 2 City goals go in and the expectation for VAR to kick in. My biggest issue and there are many with VAR, is the impact it has on fans spontaneous celebration of a goal. With this in mind I have for some time feel that removing any VAR intervention with offside decisions would offer a significant step in the right direction. It is pretty rare that lines people make a big error with this and when it's tight, I do feel that the scorer should get the benefit of the doubt, such as the Jesus goal tonight.

With this in mind, and watching the two tight offside calls with City tonight, let's just let it go and allow the most important part of the game flow.

[free_at_last]

They don't really have the reach though, I don't think.

We just don't have the powerful friendly presence in the media. It's not a new thing and not entirely related to football. For decades Liverpool the city held an unofficial pariah status in the UK media and if you wanted to get on you didn't try too hard to become a champion of the city. Those few who did became seen as 'specialists' and notions like 'well he would say that' followed their work around like a bad smell. 

It's not surprising that this has bled over into sports media and that at this stage we still don't have much power in the media. Even ex-players quickly get a measure of what they need to do if they want to get on.

It will change, over time, hopefully, but that doesn't help us today. The club itself hasn't 'helped' in this regard by having a very reserved and downbeat PR/media presence for decades. I actually don't mind that. Less can often be more in PR, but with issues like this it can be a handicap.

I wonder if our owners are even aware of the current situation being overseas and not all knowing  about football's shenanigans. Just looking at stats won't paint a true picture as "minor" decisions or non-decisions can affect a game as much as a penalty(eg.non-fouls given against Salah and Mane).
It will definitely affect their investment if we are "reffed" out of a league title. I was pleasantly surprised how they managed to get the Anfield redevelopment approved after decades of the club banging their head against a brick wall. Like it or not, Capitalism has a way of greasing the wheels and making things happen.
 I'm not suggesting that they would but if I was the owner I would engage some private investigators to follow these pricks around - I don't think it would be long before they slipped up and divulged something - if people are playing dirty then we are well within our rights to fight dirty right back.

[Crosby Nick]

We've conceded 6 pens in the league, more than we've been given. Plus the one Wolves were awarded which was so ridiculous even VAR had to overturn it.

Chelsea (soft)
Sheff Utd (soft and incredibly borderline)
City (new handball rule, seems to have changed back now)
Brighton (soft)
Burnley (they get given)

What was the other?

[Hazell]

2 at Brighton wasn't it? They missed the first one.

[Agent99]

Chelsea (soft)
Sheff Utd (soft and incredibly borderline)
City (new handball rule, seems to have changed back now)
Brighton (soft)
Burnley (they get given)

What was the other?

The first against Brighton which was the tackle from Neco. Definite penalty to be fair.

[Red-Soldier]

Why no replays of the Rashford goal??

I think Williams might just have been playing him on, but they didn't even show the angle that would highlight it.

[rob1966]

The first against Brighton which was the tackle from Neco. Definite penalty to be fair.

Yeah that was a stonewall pen that, no need for VAR to even look at it.

[Fromola]

Why no replays of the Rashford goal??

I think Williams might just have been playing him on, but they didn't even show the angle that would highlight it.

It looked off to me. Maybe it wasn't, but at the other end we'd have been waiting 5 minutes to find out with all the lines drawn out.

[Red-Soldier]

Dive from Cavani?

[jillcwhomever]

Dive from Cavani?

It was certainly engineered by him.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Time for Jurgen to make a huge fuss, take whatever fines and suspensions.

That was no where even close to a free kick.

Bollocks to the no conspiracy shouts on here.

That was absolutely disgusting.

[thejbs]

Not really one for the VAR thread.

[Clint Eastwood]

Don’t think it was a dive to be honest.

I’d have liked to see a review of the second goal for offside though. What happened to the lines being drawn from the sleeves?

[KillieRed]

It looked off to me. Maybe it wasn't, but at the other end we'd have been waiting 5 minutes to find out with all the lines drawn out.

Hard to tell, the BBC didn’t run a suitable replay, and there was no 5 minute dissection of the event “just in case”. For me though, Cavani did his best to get a foul but it was a foul.

[Jwils21]

Hard to tell, the BBC didn’t run a suitable replay, and there was no 5 minute dissection of the event “just in case”. For me though, Cavani did his best to get a foul but it was a foul.

The lack of dissection is both good and bad. It’s good because it’s a farcical practice that should be binned, but when we’ve already suffered because of it this season then it should be applied consistently. Same with the Gomez handball against City.

[red_Mark1980]

Protractors and set squares out for our goals.

Rashford doesn't even get a second look.

[Kekule]

Anyone seen any replay at all of Lindelof kicking Jones in the head yet?

Any at all? From anywhere?

No?

Not saying it was a definite penalty or anything. I don’t know because I’ve not seen it back, which is a bit odd when you think about it, considering it’s exactly the sort of thing you think they’d want to take another look at.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

it’s exactly the sort of thing you think they’d want to take another look at.

Can't remember them taking a look at anything that might benefit us for a very long time.

[thejbs]

I don’t think any decisions really undid us today.

[ChrisLFCKOP]

Anyone seen any replay at all of Lindelof kicking Jones in the head yet?

Any at all? From anywhere?

No?

Not saying it was a definite penalty or anything. I don’t know because I’ve not seen it back, which is a bit odd when you think about it, considering it’s exactly the sort of thing you think they’d want to take another look at.

One of them annoying ones where is definitely a free kick outside the area (well unless you are us that is).

[Fromola]

The winning goal just showed how much street smarter they are. Cavani knows exactly how to win that free kick.

[BoRed]

Anyone seen any replay at all of Lindelof kicking Jones in the head yet?

Any at all? From anywhere?

No?

Not saying it was a definite penalty or anything. I don’t know because I’ve not seen it back, which is a bit odd when you think about it, considering it’s exactly the sort of thing you think they’d want to take another look at.

Same when Origi went down late in the game. Not saying we were hard done by any of them, but Mane's tackle was replayed to death, as was Milner's at the start of the game.