Poll

Should VAR (Video Assistant Referee) be introduced full time in professional football?

Yes - It's a good idea and I welcome its introduction
322 (44.9%)
Oh HELL No! - It will ruin the game / is unnecessary
207 (28.9%)
Unsure - It needs to be refined etc...(discuss)
188 (26.2%)

Total Members Voted: 716

Author Topic: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?  (Read 186491 times)

Offline Barneylfc

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5440 on: November 10, 2019, 07:30:01 PM »
Duncan Castles on Twitter is hilarious

Offline Nessy76

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5441 on: November 10, 2019, 08:43:57 PM »
Oh there is no debate, the Silva handball leads to a disallowed goal if it goes in. It was two rapid ricochets off two hands arms that neither player intended. Oliver and VAR was 100% correct no pen.

Gives the fuckwits on Blue Loon something to foam about tonight :lmao

It's a bit of a strange one. Silva can't score, because it's come off his arm. But play does not stop, because it's not intentional. As I was saying yesterday, that sets up a ridiculous situation where the attacking team are still playing, but if they score it will be ruled out.

The official story from today was simply that Trent did not deliberately try to handle the ball. (The speed it happened, he'd be one of the greatest keepers in world football to get a hand to it on purpose.) So we can argue the toss about his "natural silhouette" (which sounds more like a perfume than a football term) but the fact it came off Silva is ultimately neither here nor there.

And no, it makes absolutely no sense. Not even really a VAR issue, this is just a result of the new handball rules not being thought through.

Not complaining, obviously.  ;)
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Offline dudleyred

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5442 on: November 10, 2019, 08:45:38 PM »
Check out Lazio game today for some wild use of VAR - not just a prem league issue

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5443 on: November 10, 2019, 08:45:53 PM »
It's a bit of a strange one. Silva can't score, because it's come off his arm. But play does not stop, because it's not intentional. As I was saying yesterday, that sets up a ridiculous situation where the attacking team are still playing, but if they score it will be ruled out.

The official story from today was simply that Trent did not deliberately try to handle the ball. (The speed it happened, he'd be one of the greatest keepers in world football to get a hand to it on purpose.) So we can argue the toss about his "natural silhouette" (which sounds more like a perfume than a football term) but the fact it came off Silva is ultimately neither here nor there.

And no, it makes absolutely no sense. Not even really a VAR issue, this is just a result of the new handball rules not being thought through.

Not complaining, obviously.  ;)

Do us a favour, instead of coming up with VAR scenarios that then happen, can you post that I win the Euromillions on Tuesday instead ;)

Offline Nick110581

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5444 on: November 10, 2019, 08:46:14 PM »
Duncan Castles on Twitter is hilarious

Is he actually sane?
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Offline Barneylfc

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5445 on: November 10, 2019, 08:46:22 PM »
Quote
Premier League referees are to be encouraged to make more use of pitchside VAR monitors, referees' chief Mike Riley is expected to tell clubs later this week.

All 20 top-flight clubs will be represented at a meeting with Riley in central London on Thursday.

Top of the agenda will be the ongoing controversies around VAR, which continued on Saturday when Sheffield United had a goal ruled out at Tottenham because of a marginal offside decision.

Riley will be quizzed about various VAR issues, including inconsistencies in decision-making and the time it takes for rulings to be made, which in some instances have been several minutes after goals are scored.

It is acknowledged that solutions are not straightforward. However, it is anticipated Riley will tell clubs the on-field referee will make more use of monitors.

It was envisaged that would happen from the point VAR came into use in the Premier League but Riley advised referees not to use them in order to prevent additional delays.

It is now felt the on-field referee is best placed to make marginal calls because they are more aware of the flow of the game and the atmosphere at the time.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50367354

Offline Nessy76

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5446 on: November 10, 2019, 08:48:15 PM »
Do us a favour, instead of coming up with VAR scenarios that then happen, can you post that I win the Euromillions on Tuesday instead ;)

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Offline Nick110581

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5447 on: November 10, 2019, 08:50:14 PM »
Oh there is no debate, the Silva handball leads to a disallowed goal if it goes in. It was two rapid ricochets off two hands arms that neither player intended. Oliver and VAR was 100% correct no pen.

Gives the fuckwits on Blue Loon something to foam about tonight :lmao

Yeah - more lenient with ricochets apparently.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5448 on: November 10, 2019, 09:16:44 PM »
They had at half time, hardly got a mention.
So glad I don’t watch Sky here, on my broadcast they mentioned it right away at half time, and spent very little time talking about any ”controvery”. More about the quality of the game, and how good we both were, especially our performance.

Offline athreyakb

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5449 on: November 10, 2019, 09:18:20 PM »
Can someone imagine what would've happened if Atkinson had refereed this game? Thank fuck we had someone competent like Michael Oliver.
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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5450 on: November 11, 2019, 02:54:00 AM »
Riley is going to tell the refs to start using the monitors more
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/50367354?

Offline 4pool

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5451 on: November 11, 2019, 03:06:11 AM »
The PGMOL and PL are having a meeting with "Northern" teams and managers on Monday to discuss VAR.
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Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5452 on: November 11, 2019, 04:01:56 AM »
Have the handball rules changed? Obviously happy went in our favour but surprised that TAA didn't concede penalty when Sterling hit the ball at his hand. I remember Iran getting a penalty at the world cup for a much harsher handball (Croatia in final was harsh as well) so I thought there was less leeway

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5453 on: November 11, 2019, 07:53:39 AM »
Have the handball rules changed? Obviously happy went in our favour but surprised that TAA didn't concede penalty when Sterling hit the ball at his hand. I remember Iran getting a penalty at the world cup for a much harsher handball (Croatia in final was harsh as well) so I thought there was less leeway

Its an utter mess. MOTD2 said that the PGMOL informed them when asked that Silvas handball would have ruled out any goal if the ball had gone to Sterling (apt name for the greedy bastard) but isn't counted in the decision on Trent. Last time I looked a penalty was a goal scoring opportunity, so if the handball leads to a goal, then surely if it directly leads to a penalty, that has to be considered too?????

They are quite strict in the PL on distance and if a ball is driven at a player a lot won't give it. It is in the laws that distance is a factor in the referees decision. Both of Trents were deemed that he didn't have time to react, the first looks a lot worse in slow mo - annoyance for me was Shearer saying Trents arm wasn't in a natural position, err what about Agueros arms then, is he trying to handle the ball or are his arms just there due to natural movement?


Offline LovelyCushionedHeader

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5454 on: November 11, 2019, 08:38:26 AM »
As ridiculous as ever really. The PGMOL had the perfect reason for not awarding the penalty, all they had to do was say it could not be given because Bernado handled it first and any handball leading to a goalscoring opportunity is an offence. But no, they not only try and come out with a different explanation but totally dismiss the explanation they should have given. Idiots. All of them. Except Michael Oliver, he is great.

Edit: Both Bobby Madley and Mark Clattenburg have come out and said why the penalty actually couldn't be given. Its no surprise that individual referees know what they are doing more than their bosses (or former bosses). Its just a shame they are taking their orders from them.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 08:53:11 AM by LovelyCushionedHeader »
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5455 on: November 11, 2019, 08:49:26 AM »
Can someone imagine what would've happened if Atkinson had refereed this game? Thank fuck we had someone competent like Michael Oliver.

Absolutely. Oliver is the only decent ref in this league, and probably the only one who deserves to be in the World Cup.
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Offline Nick110581

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5456 on: November 11, 2019, 09:29:00 AM »
Think it is a penalty in isolation but the rules are so unclear.

You disallow the goal if it goes to Sterling and he scores as Silva handled it but choose to ignore in this instance.
No, jazz. You fear jazz. You fear the lack of rules, the lack of boundaries. Oh look, it's a fence. But, no, it's soft.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5457 on: November 11, 2019, 09:33:58 AM »
Think it is a penalty in isolation but the rules are so unclear.

You disallow the goal if it goes to Sterling and he scores as Silva handled it but choose to ignore in this instance.

The rules are a mess, but I'm not even convinced it is a penalty. The photos make it look worse, but at full speed Trent had half a second to react. Also, as I posted, look at Aguero, his stance is almost identical to Trent and his arms are higher. Now if he is doing that to keep his balance, surely Trent is going to do the same.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5458 on: November 11, 2019, 09:36:04 AM »
The rules are a mess, but I'm not even convinced it is a penalty. The photos make it look worse, but at full speed Trent had half a second to react. Also, as I posted, look at Aguero, his stance is almost identical to Trent and his arms are higher. Now if he is doing that to keep his balance, surely Trent is going to do the same.

Exactly.

The rules don't help it but you can't give a penalty if it comes off Silvas hand in my opinion.
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Offline driftinwest

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5459 on: November 11, 2019, 01:01:01 PM »
Did anyone hear what Riley had to say about it on ref watch?
If my assistant had not signalled a goal, I would have given a penalty and sent off goalkeeper Patr Cheh. he beeped me to signal the foul. The noise from the crowd  stopped me hearing it, I have been involved at places like Barcelona, Ibrox, Old Trafford, Arsenal, but I've never in my life been involved in such an atmosphere. IT WAS INCREDIBLE

Offline Barneylfc

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5460 on: November 11, 2019, 01:50:37 PM »
Did anyone hear what Riley had to say about it on ref watch?

Gallagher?

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11859349/ref-watch-var-correct-to-stick-with-on-field-decision-for-trent-alexander-arnold-handball-says-dermot-Gallagher

Quote
Dermot Gallagher says VAR was correct to go with the on-field decision by Michael Oliver in the Trent Alexander-Arnold handball shout, while the former Premier League referee also assesses other VAR calls from another weekend full of controversy.

From controversial goal decisions, penalties not given for handball, and big toes being offside, it's been another eventful weekend for Premier League referees.

So how did Dermot see it? Here's Sky Sports News' resident ref's view...

Liverpool 3-1 Manchester City

INCIDENT: Fabinho fired the hosts ahead with a superb strike from distance in the top-of-the-table clash at Anfield, but moments before, Trent Alexander-Arnold appeared to handle a cross at the other end. Referee Michael Oliver waved play on but had VAR decided a foul had been committed, Fabinho's goal would have been ruled out and a penalty awarded to Manchester City.

Oliver did not feel that the incident was a deliberate act and that the defender was consistent with his movement in the penalty box. Oliver was in constant contact with the match VAR, Paul Tierney at Stockley Park, in the moments after the incident. As Tierney did not believe a clear and obvious error had been made, no penalty was given. Tierney agreed that Alexander-Arnold's arms had not been in an unnatural position when the ball struck him.

DERMOT'S VERDICT: I don't think it's a penalty.

DERMOT SAYS: This incident has to be an on-field decision, as Oliver has the best view.

There's an angle where the referee makes the decision, we don't need to talk about the VAR, the on-field referee makes the decision. Straight away, he says no penalty. He sees the speed of the ball and he sees it hit Alexander-Arnold on the arm. I think he's got the best view of everybody - he's an amazing athlete to keep up with play.

Remember, a ball striking an arm isn't a penalty. Oliver will have communicated with the VAR that the ball came too quickly at Alexander-Arnold - once Oliver makes that call, then VAR will never ever get involved. If you asked 100 neutral football fans about the decision, you'd have a split vote. There would not be a majority. Even if the referee had come over to the pitch-side monitor, he wouldn't have reversed his decision.


Offline Nessy76

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5461 on: November 11, 2019, 02:06:16 PM »
Its an utter mess. MOTD2 said that the PGMOL informed them when asked that Silvas handball would have ruled out any goal if the ball had gone to Sterling (apt name for the greedy bastard) but isn't counted in the decision on Trent. Last time I looked a penalty was a goal scoring opportunity, so if the handball leads to a goal, then surely if it directly leads to a penalty, that has to be considered too?????

They are quite strict in the PL on distance and if a ball is driven at a player a lot won't give it. It is in the laws that distance is a factor in the referees decision. Both of Trents were deemed that he didn't have time to react, the first looks a lot worse in slow mo - annoyance for me was Shearer saying Trents arm wasn't in a natural position, err what about Agueros arms then, is he trying to handle the ball or are his arms just there due to natural movement?



I challenge anyone to stand how Trent is stood here, with both knees bent, and not have your arms in that position. It is absolutely natural posture. (As is Silva's, for that matter.)
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5462 on: November 11, 2019, 02:17:37 PM »
I challenge anyone to stand how Trent is stood here, with both knees bent, and not have your arms in that position. It is absolutely natural posture. (As is Silva's, for that matter.)
I have this picture in my head of all these massive Bellends trying to run forward at pace with their hands behind their backs or static at their sides like - beggars belief that any right minded individual can say that Trent and Agueros hands were in an unnatural position.

Offline rushyman

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5463 on: November 11, 2019, 05:18:33 PM »
Duncan Castles on Twitter is hilarious

I actually don’t find it funny that a bloke that is an actual journo can go on like that

He sounds like an davek. That’s fine but when you work for the times you shouldn’t be allowed to spew that shit 

I’d be fucking mortified if a Liverpool fan who was a journo went on this way about United/Everton
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 05:25:49 PM by rushyman »
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Offline Red Berry

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5464 on: November 11, 2019, 05:59:02 PM »
Oh there is no debate, the Silva handball leads to a disallowed goal if it goes in. It was two rapid ricochets off two hands arms that neither player intended. Oliver and VAR was 100% correct no pen.

Gives the fuckwits on Blue Loon something to foam about tonight :lmao

City fans probably think/hope that the goal would be given regardless of whether it was legit or not.  Hopefully VAR would rule it out but unfortunately we can never be sure.
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Offline driftinwest

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5465 on: November 11, 2019, 07:26:58 PM »
Gallagher?

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11859349/ref-watch-var-correct-to-stick-with-on-field-decision-for-trent-alexander-arnold-handball-says-dermot-Gallagher

Thanks Barney, that's who I meant. Can't understand why he hasn't mentioned the ball coming off Silva's arm in the first place, I was in the lower KD and heard the kop call hand ball from Silva's challenge, couldn't see the ball come off Trent so was in the dark why they where checking VAR for Fabs goal.
If my assistant had not signalled a goal, I would have given a penalty and sent off goalkeeper Patr Cheh. he beeped me to signal the foul. The noise from the crowd  stopped me hearing it, I have been involved at places like Barcelona, Ibrox, Old Trafford, Arsenal, but I've never in my life been involved in such an atmosphere. IT WAS INCREDIBLE

Offline LovelyCushionedHeader

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5466 on: November 11, 2019, 07:53:12 PM »
Didn't realise Neil Swarbrick had this role (or that the role existed). A job for the boys if there ever was one.

Quote
The use of video assistant referees (VAR) in Premier League games has been given a mark of seven out of 10 by the man in charge despite strong criticism.

Neil Swarbrick says VAR will evolve and asked for fans to be patient after another weekend of controversy.

Sheffield United had a goal ruled out for a marginal offside at Spurs while Manchester City saw two penalty appeals for handball turned down at Liverpool.

"I'm really pleased, honestly, with how we have started out," said Swarbrick.

VAR was introduced in the Premier League this season after trials in the League Cup and FA Cup, but it has angered fans who cite inconsistencies in decision-making and say the time it takes for rulings to be made kills the passion and excitement of games.

Asked how he would rate the introduction of VAR out of 10, Swarbrick, the Premier League referees' lead on VAR, told BBC Sport: "I'd give us around about seven-ish.

"We have more decisions correct with VAR than without it. If the mark now is seven - early days - in two years' time I'm hoping for maybe a eight and a half or nine.

"We are open to evolving with this - it's not a case of we're not budging. We will listen to feedback and where we can improve things, we will do."
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Offline Slick_Beef

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5467 on: November 11, 2019, 09:00:47 PM »
I really notice how little the players celebrated Fab's goal yesterday, presumably because they thought it might be disallowed (Klopp said as much after the game on MOTD).  How have we got to the point where there can be any doubts about a 25 yard screamer. Fed up of this shite.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5468 on: November 11, 2019, 09:12:07 PM »
Check out Lazio game today for some wild use of VAR - not just a prem league issue

Biggest myth in football that it works magically in other countries but not over here.

It takes too much from the game without giving enough back.
Better than the Invincibles.
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Offline Jake

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5469 on: November 11, 2019, 10:08:23 PM »
I really notice how little the players celebrated Fab's goal yesterday, presumably because they thought it might be disallowed (Klopp said as much after the game on MOTD).  How have we got to the point where there can be any doubts about a 25 yard screamer. Fed up of this shite.

Completely agree. Went bonkers for our first two goals and then all of a sudden you worry that someone has a pube offside and they're gonna call it back.

VAR spoiled the goals even though the decisions went our way, the very existence of it is a problem.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5470 on: November 11, 2019, 10:40:32 PM »
I don't watch that many half-time/full-time shows, but I was astounded how much shite so called "Analysts" can take about the game without being challenged. It really shows why the refs need to be mic'd up. I've mentioned it a couple of times, but in rugby when they're analysing a situation they explicitly go through the various factors that they need to take into account. French refs at the world cup in big games will even communicate in english so the dummies at home know what's going.

Mic'd up refs could easily have clarified what went on. Michael Oliver could have told VAR that he saw the ball deflect of Silva's hand onto Trent's, because of this it would definitely not have been a penalty, As Trent was so close and was unexpectedly deflected in a way he couldn't anticipate and his hands were in a natural position, he found there was no handball and thusly no need to bring back play for the first handball. It takes a lot of wind out of the media which are going after talking points rather than competently analysing the situation. The authorities would be forced to confirm whether this interpretation is right or wrong which helps create precidents and thusly consistency.

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5471 on: November 11, 2019, 11:30:33 PM »
...Not even really a VAR issue, this is just a result of the new handball rules not being thought through...

The new handball rules are a response to VAR.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5472 on: November 12, 2019, 12:35:49 AM »
I don't watch that many half-time/full-time shows, but I was astounded how much shite so called "Analysts" can take about the game without being challenged. It really shows why the refs need to be mic'd up. I've mentioned it a couple of times, but in rugby when they're analysing a situation they explicitly go through the various factors that they need to take into account. French refs at the world cup in big games will even communicate in english so the dummies at home know what's going.

Mic'd up refs could easily have clarified what went on. Michael Oliver could have told VAR that he saw the ball deflect of Silva's hand onto Trent's, because of this it would definitely not have been a penalty, As Trent was so close and was unexpectedly deflected in a way he couldn't anticipate and his hands were in a natural position, he found there was no handball and thusly no need to bring back play for the first handball. It takes a lot of wind out of the media which are going after talking points rather than competently analysing the situation. The authorities would be forced to confirm whether this interpretation is right or wrong which helps create precidents and thusly consistency.


Q&A: VAR chief on big talking points

Communication: Shown an example of a clear decision broadcast to players and fans in rugby union, he said: "It took rugby union six or seven years to get to that position. That doesn't happen overnight. You've just got to give us time."

Broadcasting decisions: Could fans watch or listen to VAR decisions, as in rugby or cricket? "You cannot use any referee communications like that because IFAB (football's lawmakers) protocols don't allow us to."

Offside: Swarbrick said the one-pixel lines used by VAR were magnified for TV broadcast which could make decisions seem more marginal than they are. "We are held by the laws of the game. Once we have made that decision with the lines, there's no interpretation, no tolerance band. It's either onside or offside."

Pitchside monitors: Referees in the Premier League have not tended to use the review screens. Will that change? "Quite possibly it will do. At the moment, the feedback we are getting back from the clubs, managers, players etc is they are quite comfortable in how we are operating."
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5473 on: November 12, 2019, 04:41:08 AM »

Q&A: VAR chief on big talking points

Communication: Shown an example of a clear decision broadcast to players and fans in rugby union, he said: "It took rugby union six or seven years to get to that position. That doesn't happen overnight. You've just got to give us time."

Broadcasting decisions: Could fans watch or listen to VAR decisions, as in rugby or cricket? "You cannot use any referee communications like that because IFAB (football's lawmakers) protocols don't allow us to."

Offside: Swarbrick said the one-pixel lines used by VAR were magnified for TV broadcast which could make decisions seem more marginal than they are. "We are held by the laws of the game. Once we have made that decision with the lines, there's no interpretation, no tolerance band. It's either onside or offside."

Pitchside monitors: Referees in the Premier League have not tended to use the review screens. Will that change? "Quite possibly it will do. At the moment, the feedback we are getting back from the clubs, managers, players etc is they are quite comfortable in how we are operating."
Head firmly in the sand

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5474 on: November 12, 2019, 05:04:05 AM »
Head firmly in the sand

I think you'll find he's just on...

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5475 on: November 12, 2019, 03:58:53 PM »
His fart is offside though, PoP.
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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5476 on: November 12, 2019, 04:00:39 PM »

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5477 on: November 13, 2019, 11:01:19 PM »
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/story/3988620/premier-league-without-var-man-city-reduce-liverpools-lead

"Liverpool have surged clear at the top, and believe it or not VAR has not been working in Jurgen Klopp's favour with overturns having no effect on their points tally. Liverpool are given a victory at Manchester United (drew 1-1) and a draw at Chelsea (won 2-1), which even themselves out. Maybe the title isn't going to be won in the VAR room."


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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5478 on: Yesterday at 11:34:31 AM »
That doesn't make sense, where have all our bribes to the refs gone then?

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Re: VAR! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing... ?
« Reply #5479 on: Yesterday at 11:44:07 AM »
That doesn't make sense, where have all our bribes to the refs gone then?
Into their pockets?