Author Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire  (Read 140547 times)

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1000 on: June 27, 2017, 07:33:45 pm »
Strange that Scotland have said they haven't found much wrong with their cladding have they got different building regulations?

Yes, they were updated after a fire in Glasgow in 1999:

Following the Grenfell Tower, 60 high-rise buildings in 25 local authorities in England have failed fire safety tests so far. But no local authority or housing association tower blocks in Scotland have been found to use the same kind of cladding.

In Scotland, a change to building regulations in 2005 made it mandatory for builders to ensure that any external cladding "inhibited" fire spreading. The new regulations were introduced following a fatal fire in a Scottish tower block in 1999.....Read on

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1001 on: June 27, 2017, 07:34:36 pm »
I have seen all his DVDs, including the ones on the "War on Terror."  I have his boxset. 

I could go on, but lets not derail the thread anymore.

Aye. Never argue with a devoted fan.

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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1002 on: June 27, 2017, 08:06:22 pm »
Aye. Never argue with a devoted fan.

(Do you prefer his acoustic years or electric?)

I wouldn't call myself a devoted fan  ;D

I bought his boxset about 10 years ago, still haven't watched it all.

I've seen all his documentaries about the Khmer Rouge, Chile, Indonesia, Australia, Palestine, South Africa and the War on Terror.  I haven't come across anything about him saying 9/11 was an "inside job."

I'm at a different place now, compared to when I bought his DVDs and I don't believe everything he has said, however, he did encourage me to look into certain things for myself and opened my eyes to many others, which was a good thing.

Being a scientist, I'm a reasoned thinker that bases everything on logic and facts.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 09:22:45 pm by Red-Soldier »

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1003 on: June 27, 2017, 08:29:35 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/27/grenfell-tower-gas-pipes-left-exposed-despite-fire-safety-experts-orders

Dozens of exposed gas pipes in Grenfell Tower that caused residents to fear for their safety were left bare despite a council safety expert ordering them to be protected by fire-retardant boxing.


The National Grid agreed to protect the pipes serving individual flats, which had been installed over the winter, but had only added a third of the boxing by the time the deadly blaze killed at least 79 people.

In March, three months before the blaze, residents told the London fire brigade that people living in the 24-storey tower were so scared by the pipes “that they are having a panic attack”. They requested an urgent safety report to show the building is “safe from fire hazard”, according to correspondence seen by the Guardian.

A fire safety consultant for Kensington and Chelsea council, which owns the tower, had approved the location of new gas risers and pipes in landings and stairways, but only if they were clad in “fire-rated” boxing, according to an email to leaseholders from Sacha Jevans, director of operations at the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation.

Jevans said that the National Grid assured the council on 27 March the pipes would be protected, but two-thirds of the lateral pipes were still exposed when the disaster happened on 14 June.

The works were originally undertaken by the National Grid’s gas distribution arm following a leak. In March, the firm was sold to investors, including the Qatari government, and renamed as Cadent Gas. Cadent said the “work was still ongoing to box in the lateral pipes [horizontal pipes to flats]” when the fire occurred.

Residents had been worried about the installation of the pipes for months. In an email to Kensington and Chelsea at least three months before the disaster, Tunde Awoderu, vice-chair of Grenfell Tower Leaseholders’ Association, wrote: “This exposed gas pipe throughout the building has put our life in danger and we don’t feel secure in the building anymore.

“If there was a gas leak on one of those pipes and someone was smoking that would be the end of the building … We demand that the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation must … give assurance that the building is secure by tonight before everybody goes to bed. We wait to hear from you and the leadership of the KCTMO, not in due course but NOW.”

Laura Johnson, Kensington and Chelsea’s director of housing, complained to the local Labour ward councillor Judith Blakeman in an email on 22 May that “National Grid have been and continue to be a law unto themselves and despite repeated requests from the TMO to act in a more consultative and collaborative manner with the landlord this has not taken place”.

Scotland Yard has identified the source of the fire as a faulty Hotpoint fridge-freezer and the focus of the government’s response is to investigate the role of the tower’s flammable cladding.

But police investigating how the fire spread have said they will go further. Det Supt Fiona McCormack said on Friday that officers “will examine the construction of the building, including the refurbishment” and added: “This investigation will be exhaustive and, as we learn more, the scope and scale may well grow.”

Neither Scotland Yard nor LFB would comment on the specifics of what is being examined. However, one survivor, Mickey Paramasivan, 37, told reporters immediately after the blaze: “There were explosions everywhere you looked, lots of bangs, blue gas coming out everywhere you looked.”

LFB also said the day after the blaze that it had not been able to put out the flames until firefighters had isolated a ruptured gas main in the block.

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1004 on: June 27, 2017, 09:57:24 pm »
This tragedy gets worse in the telling every day. Shameful neglect suggested in far too many quarters for this to be anything other than assuredly preventable.
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1006 on: June 28, 2017, 09:54:56 am »
This tragedy gets worse in the telling every day. Shameful neglect suggested in far too many quarters for this to be anything other than assuredly preventable.

And this is just one small aspect of how the authorities treat people like us.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1007 on: June 28, 2017, 10:54:54 am »
Love seeing politicians squirm, especially Tories.

Offline rob1966

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1008 on: June 29, 2017, 11:44:39 am »
Government getting told to stop wasting money testing anymore high rises, seeing as every one tested has failed and to spend it fixing them instead.

From my office window I can see almost every block in Manchester/Salford that have failed - they're all in the poorer areas of the two Cities.
Jurgen YNWA

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1009 on: June 29, 2017, 01:42:39 pm »
Government getting told to stop wasting money testing anymore high rises, seeing as every one tested has failed and to spend it fixing them instead.

From my office window I can see almost every block in Manchester/Salford that have failed - they're all in the poorer areas of the two Cities.

I think the problem is that they don't really know what needs fixing - cladding, sprinklers, fire doors, gas pipes and who knows what else.

Offline Team Sleep

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1010 on: June 29, 2017, 03:00:43 pm »
Quote
Survivors of the Grenfell Tower disaster and the media have been banned from the first meeting of senior councillors since the fire to avoid “disruption”, fuelling opposition fears of a cover-up.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/grenfell-survivors-barred-from-council-meeting-about-fire

Quote
The company responsible for managing Grenfell Tower has changed the locks on a community centre used to provide art therapy for children affected by the tragedy, stranding parents and children outside in the street when they came to seek help.

Therapists had been running the club for a week, but when they turned up on Tuesday to find their keys no longer worked.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/kctmo-company-in-charge-of-grenfell-tower-locks-community-out-of-therapy-centre

Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1011 on: June 29, 2017, 03:29:48 pm »
Looks like everyone with a vested interest is going into self defence mode, before the shit hits the fan.   ???

Offline rob1966

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1012 on: June 29, 2017, 04:34:27 pm »
I think the problem is that they don't really know what needs fixing - cladding, sprinklers, fire doors, gas pipes and who knows what else.

Priority is to strip the cladding off, Salford and Manchester have already started.
Jurgen YNWA

Offline Trada

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1013 on: June 29, 2017, 07:03:29 pm »
 Jim Waterson‏Verified account @jimwaterson 5m5 minutes ago

Jim Waterson Retweeted Press Association

Grenfell Tower council tried to ban press from council meeting, press obtained court order giving access, so council cancelled the meeting.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1014 on: June 29, 2017, 07:08:19 pm »
Shitbags.  What have they got to hide?


I can understand it being a closed meeting away from the public, if they are expecting public unrest that may disrupt the meeting, but what have you got to hide from the press, especially in the current climate of mistrust, and conspiracy.

Surely it's in the councils interest to be seen as open, and honest as possible.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1015 on: June 29, 2017, 07:15:24 pm »
That is shady as fuck.  Don't they realise it makes it look like they have something to hide?  It also makes them look like they are above the law and feel free to piss on democracy.  You wanted the fucking job - take the responsibility as well as the perks.

Bastards.
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Offline Trada

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1016 on: June 29, 2017, 08:17:20 pm »
 Fiona Rutherford‏Verified account @Fi_Rutherford 34m34 minutes ago

Nicholas Paget-Brown cancelled the council meeting because a court ruled that journalists should be present, and it all kicked off.

Video

https://twitter.com/Fi_Rutherford/status/880496520210124800
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Offline Team Sleep

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1017 on: June 29, 2017, 08:22:25 pm »
Fiona Rutherford‏Verified account @Fi_Rutherford 34m34 minutes ago

Nicholas Paget-Brown cancelled the council meeting because a court ruled that journalists should be present, and it all kicked off.

Video

https://twitter.com/Fi_Rutherford/status/880496520210124800

Disgusting.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1018 on: June 29, 2017, 08:34:09 pm »
David Lammy:

I have been hearing directly from Grenfell survivors today. It is important that their voices are heard, so I am passing on their messages. Please share and amplify their voices. They must be heard.

Leader of RBKC and Cabinet Ministers need to hear from Grenfell survivors immediately. Survivors say Govnt statements on support not true

The support has been "scandalous" and "a farce". Survivors have attempted suicide because they feel so isolated, alone and unsupported.

There are no social workers in the hotels working to support survivors. Survivors "have to find everything out for themselves".

There is "no central organisation" to manage and deliver victim support. No information delivery - survivors are finding out from each other

Survivors have also told us today that families are being offered accommodation outside of the borough of Kensington and Chelsea.

Survivors feel like they have been failed, abandoned and let down, again. RBKC and Govnt need to listen to the survivors and act.

Survivors do not recognise official statements about support. They say: show us the families that have been offered housing and given money as the Govnt claims.
Quote
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Offline redmark

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1019 on: June 29, 2017, 08:37:31 pm »
May seems to be scaling back on Grenfell inquiry promises already.

Two weeks ago:

“The inquiry will be open and transparent. Government and ministers will cooperate fully. I anticipate the name of the judge will be announced within the next few days and that an open meeting will be held with residents to help shape the terms of reference.”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/grenfell-inquiry-chairman-martin-moore-bick

Residents and survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire have told the judge heading the inquiry they are unhappy with its narrow remit and want a broader investigation into the causes and aftermath of the disaster that killed at least 80 people.

Sir Martin Moore-Bick, who was named as inquiry chairman on Thursday, cautioned that he was doubtful it would be as wide-ranging as many residents hope.


Meeting the bereaved and survivors on Thursday morning, the former court of appeal judge engaged with their suspicions and was candid about the restrictions under which he would work.

“I’ve been asked to undertake this inquiry on the basis that it would be pretty well limited to the problems surrounding the start of the fire and its rapid development, in order to make recommendations as to how this sort of thing can be prevented in the future,” Moore-Bick said afterwards.

“I’m well aware that residents want a much broader investigation ... whether my inquiry is the right way in which to achieve that I’m more doubtful. There may be other ways in which that desire for an investigation can be satisfied.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 09:24:57 pm by redmark »
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1020 on: June 29, 2017, 09:16:54 pm »
You read that, a day after the CPS Hillsborough charges yesterday, and you can't help but shake your head.  How long with the Grenfell families have to fight for Justice?
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Offline rob1966

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1021 on: June 30, 2017, 07:12:56 am »
Grenfell Tower: Cladding 'changed to cheaper version

Cladding fitted to Grenfell Tower during its refurbishment was changed to a cheaper version, documents obtained by the BBC suggest.
Documents show the aluminium cladding was less fire-resistant than zinc, thereby saving nearly £300,000.
The cladding - fitted as part of the refurbishment of the west London tower - is thought to have contributed to the fire that killed at least 80 people.
There is no suggestion a deliberate decision was made to cut fire safety.

In 2014, contractors working for Kensington and Chelsea Council were asked to replace zinc cladding with a more economical aluminium version.
Police investigating the disaster have said the tower's cladding has subsequently failed safety tests.

One of the documents obtained by the BBC is a list of requested savings sent to contractors in July 2014, including £293,368 that would be saved by fitting "aluminium cladding in lieu of zinc cladding".
The switch allowed for a change of colour, but the BBC has been told another key reason was to save money.
Earlier planning documents suggest the original plan was for zinc cladding with a fire-retardant core.
Residents had also been told their new cladding would be made of zinc. Both types of cladding have the same fire official rating.
Reduce building costs
The savings were part of an ongoing effort by the council and the local tenant management organisation to drive down the cost of the £10m refurbishment.
A source close to one of the many companies involved in the project said the change was typical of constant pressure by councils to reduce the costs of building refurbishments.
Council minutes from 2013 show dissatisfaction with the initially-preferred contractor for not keeping the scheme within budget.
Further bids were invited, and this led to the appointment of a different contractor in 2014 which was then asked to make savings including on the cladding.
The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea has promised to co-operate fully with all investigations into the fire.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40453054
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1022 on: June 30, 2017, 10:03:13 am »
You read that, a day after the CPS Hillsborough charges yesterday, and you can't help but shake your head.  How long with the Grenfell families have to fight for Justice?

Nowhere near as long as the HJC were forced to struggle. The tide has changed - this is a different world and there's no going back to quiet compliance. People with conscience - maybe guilt too - are now confessing enough is enough - see the leak post above for starters. The Royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea council better start thinking about how much better they ought to have done instead of choosing to sit on assets of £247 million.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 10:06:43 am by JohnnoWhite »
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Offline redmark

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1023 on: June 30, 2017, 12:46:22 pm »
Grenfell Tower: Cladding 'changed to cheaper version

I posted a link just a few days after the fire, the original design document talked only about the zinc cladding. That document unearthed by the BBC is going to cause the council/management company some significant (additional) difficulties.
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1024 on: June 30, 2017, 01:57:35 pm »
Nowhere near as long as the HJC were forced to struggle. The tide has changed - this is a different world and there's no going back to quiet compliance. People with conscience - maybe guilt too - are now confessing enough is enough - see the leak post above for starters. The Royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea council better start thinking about how much better they ought to have done instead of choosing to sit on assets of £247 million.

That might be so, but it's clear the establishment is still gearing up to fight.  Perhaps they don't realise just how much the tide has turned, but they're certainly running scared.
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Offline oojason

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1025 on: June 30, 2017, 03:41:04 pm »
I posted a link just a few days after the fire, the original design document talked only about the zinc cladding. That document unearthed by the BBC is going to cause the council/management company some significant (additional) difficulties.

Fair play to the BBC for doing a bit of traditional journalism/investigating and getting to the relevant documents and information. Will be interesting to see the council/management/contractors reaction to that as you say.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1026 on: June 30, 2017, 06:02:32 pm »
Pagent-Brown resigns for the "perceived failings" of his council in the aftermath of the fire. Not failings, note: perceived failings.
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1027 on: June 30, 2017, 06:15:22 pm »
Pagent-Brown resigns for the "perceived failings" of his council in the aftermath of the fire. Not failings, note: perceived failings.


That fucking stuck right in me, when he said that. Absolute rat!
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1028 on: June 30, 2017, 07:06:33 pm »
Pagent-Brown resigns for the "perceived failings" of his council in the aftermath of the fire. Not failings, note: perceived failings.

The fucking twat is using the dead as a reason for resigning,he has done it out of the goodness of his heart.

Bastard.

And now CH4 news are reporting that he/the council refused offers of help.All whilst the people were rallying around the country and sending help.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 07:08:39 pm by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1029 on: June 30, 2017, 07:16:01 pm »
As if he think throwing the plebeians a pound of flesh with satisfy their thirst for justice.

"I didn't do anything wrong, but you THINK I did, so I'll resign to keep the peace.  Because I'm just great like that."

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Offline TALBERT

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1030 on: June 30, 2017, 07:36:49 pm »
These people have absolutely fuck all empathy for the victims.

They fucking caused this to happen. But the typical establishment line from councils and government is FUCK YOU!

They have blood of innocent people on their hands.
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Offline puroresu_kid

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1031 on: June 30, 2017, 07:54:33 pm »
Kensington Borough Council are nothing short of disgraceful.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1032 on: June 30, 2017, 08:36:18 pm »
Kensington Borough Council are nothing short of disgraceful.

If you are going to insult them at least use their full title, the one with nobs on - Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea.

They'd be upset by you abbreviating it to a common sounding name like Kensington BC.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1033 on: July 1, 2017, 09:21:13 am »
Pagent-Brown resigns for the "perceived failings" of his council in the aftermath of the fire. Not failings, note: perceived failings.


No remorse you'll note. Instead we get self-aggrandisement. Fucking shameful arrogance - absolutely disgusting mentality laid bare.
 
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1034 on: July 1, 2017, 09:55:48 am »
There was a woman from RBKCC on Radio 4 Today this morning, and to hear her speak, you would think that the council were the victims. The people who lived in the tower block barely registered in her thought process.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1035 on: July 1, 2017, 01:16:53 pm »
There was a woman from RBKCC on Radio 4 Today this morning, and to hear her speak, you would think that the council were the victims. The people who lived in the tower block barely registered in her thought process.

Aye, Tory Councillor Catherine Faulks...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/catherine-faulks-bbc-radio-4-interview_uk_595766b1e4b0da2c7323bfae?zw&utm_hp_ref=uk
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1036 on: July 1, 2017, 01:43:48 pm »
Witch.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/01/tory-councillor-catherine-faulks-media-attend-grenfell-meeting-clever-stunt

So holding elected coucillors to account and attempting to report on said councillors who have proven themselves to be piss poor at their jobs is now considered a clever stunt..
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1037 on: July 1, 2017, 03:13:40 pm »
Witch.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/01/tory-councillor-catherine-faulks-media-attend-grenfell-meeting-clever-stunt

So holding elected coucillors to account and attempting to report on said councillors who have proven themselves to be piss poor at their jobs is now considered a clever stunt..

Trump tactics. Blame the media when they ask awkward questions. Ledsom was at it on Newsnight as well. (She is clearly positioned for another run at leadership. )

The council are still taking rent off the people they moved out from home near the tower block. I suppose it's their own fault for being poor. If they were rich they could live in their house in the country.  I can see the tower being demolished but the space left as a 'park' and the homes nearby being 'affected' which will mean they will be knocked down as well. Then they will build a mixed development which will include some social housing and some first time buyers houses which will be too expensive for anyone except hedge fund managers.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1038 on: July 1, 2017, 04:43:30 pm »
Yep and she and her ilk can fuck off because our population is not as passive as the Americans have become.Fucking idiots like her need to understand and understand quickly that they don't have the Guns and God shite to quickly fall back on after their brainfarts.

As for the rebuilding,that is my worry to,they cannot claim that they have found those people homes (talking about the public housing on the new development) so they can build private homes in its place.Those flats in the fancy dev were already earmarked so I want to see 120 homes on top of that number.

If they try to pull a fast one then people have every right to riot.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2017, 04:47:09 pm by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1039 on: July 1, 2017, 06:42:24 pm »
A Grenfell tower victim had their rent taken today.

A brand new low