Author Topic: FT Liverpool 3 vs Arsenal 1 (Firmino 9', Mane 40', Welbeck 57', Gini 92')  (Read 24989 times)

Offline Bergersleftpeg

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It really is the strangest season I can remember for ages.

We look fantastic going forwards and pretty solid against the best teams. It is not as if we are winning 4-3 against the big boys or have been holding on by the skin of our teeth.

We are also scoring the exact sort of goals against good teams that we would need to score against the dross- quick short passing which carves open a packed defence. The Mane goal was basically this. Arsenal had loads back and we picked the lock brilliantly.

Are we too impatient against the weaker teams? Is it complacency?  I just don't understand how we can be so poor against terrible teams. Whatever it is it needs to be fixed pronto.

Offline liversaint

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What's the problem if he's negative? Surely that's his prerogative

yeah, but there is a pattern and its in the realms of " i told you so" that grates on me.
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There is another option. Mr Ferguson organises the fixtures in his office and sends it to us and everyone will know and cannot complain. That is simple.

Offline IvanDobskey

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We need to start putting in the same level of effort against the so called lesser teams.

Great performance vs arsenal but means nothing if we go and lose to burnley.
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Offline Something Stingy

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Deserved to win it, outplayed them, really. Very good defensively and offensively. Let's hope we can carry it on!
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It really is the strangest season I can remember for ages.

We look fantastic going forwards and pretty solid against the best teams. It is not as if we are winning 4-3 against the big boys or have been holding on by the skin of our teeth.

We are also scoring the exact sort of goals against good teams that we would need to score against the dross- quick short passing which carves open a packed defence. The Mane goal was basically this. Arsenal had loads back and we picked the lock brilliantly.

Are we too impatient against the weaker teams? Is it complacency?  I just don't understand how we can be so poor against terrible teams. Whatever it is it needs to be fixed pronto.

Klopp has said he feels the team are overplaying on occasions, that at times we need to keep it simple, rather than complicating and getting lost in too much passing. He may have a point in some of the games, we certainly need to stay more patient against teams like Burnley. If we don't score early, we tend to panic and start over hitting passes. That then gives those teams some confidence against us. We need to learn to trust in the team, keep playing and eventually a goal will come.
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Offline Eel Lobo

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Klopp has said he feels the team are overplaying on occasions, that at times we need to keep it simple, rather than complicating and getting lost in too much passing. He may have a point in some of the games, we certainly need to stay more patient against teams like Burnley. If we don't score early, we tend to panic and start over hitting passes. That then gives those teams some confidence against us. We need to learn to trust in the team, keep playing and eventually a goal will come.

We still do it to be fair against good clubs, take one or two extra passes to try and guarantee the goal.
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Offline mkingdon

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I thought I'd better post, as I posted after we lost, and we need the page count to match  ???   ??? ::)

We saw what I'd like to think is the real us. As time goes on, and our squad is worked on by Klopp, both on the training ground and with additions, I think that's what we will see almost all the time. No team is 100% consistent.

Lallana was super human, Mane looked like a world beater and it was good to Coutinho look more like himself. I can't pick out a bad performance and the result flattered Arsenal I think. Origi hit the post and Matip missed a sitter.

Big test next game, but with a bit of a run we can hopefully cut United and Arsenal adrift outside the top 4.

Offline Jookie

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It really is the strangest season I can remember for ages.

We look fantastic going forwards and pretty solid against the best teams. It is not as if we are winning 4-3 against the big boys or have been holding on by the skin of our teeth.

We are also scoring the exact sort of goals against good teams that we would need to score against the dross- quick short passing which carves open a packed defence. The Mane goal was basically this. Arsenal had loads back and we picked the lock brilliantly.

Are we too impatient against the weaker teams? Is it complacency?  I just don't understand how we can be so poor against terrible teams. Whatever it is it needs to be fixed pronto.

Itís also how the other team plays against you. Better teams still try and play football and commit players forward. It gives us the chance to counter press, win back possession high up the pitch and attack a team before they are set defensively. Thatís what has happened against Spurs and Arsenal recently.

Against the dross, they defend deep and go long to a target man to gain a territorial advantage. They donít necessarily commit 6-7 players forward with an attack and they tend to keep their defensive shape more. That works against us because it negates the counter press -  in general, they just donít have the ball long enough to get it back and even if we do get it high up they pitch they normally still have their back 4 and 2 holding midfielders in position to defend. That makes it harder for us to create opportunities against the dross compared to the top 6 teams who in general will come and try to beat you by playing football (United excluded).

Our 2nd problem, is that we donít consistently deal well with teams who go long. For me, too often teams find it easy to get out and get territorial advantage off the back of playing long ball to a target man. Llorente was a brilliant out ball for Swansea in the league. Dicko was for Wolves in the FA Cup. This. Firstly stops us keeping pressure up on teams. The more we keep the ball in their half then the more chance weíll score -  though we need to be be more patient (Coutinho is the biggest culprit here by the way). Secondly, as soon as teams get it to their target man then only need a few players to support to him and itís a counter attack. We push both full backs forward on occasions and have relatively immobile centre halves (in Matip, Lucas and Klavan). It makes us vulnerable to a any quick transition. Thatís why for me Henderson is absolutely vital if you play a single man sitting in the midfield 3. Our other weakness is defending set pieces. If you are a lower to mid table team, your bunch of groks will always fancy their chances against us. We got a small full back in Clyne, 3 fellas who arenít great in the air upfront and Lallana as a midfielder. It probably the reason weíll continue to see the likes of Can and Henderson in midfield, and not the deep lying play maker a section of our fans pine for.

Whilst I think we have some problems breaking teams down, itís compounded by our inability to consistently dominate the opposition forward. Having a centre back who is aerially dominant but also lightening quick would make a massive difference in these games. Thatís easier said than done though. The other thing that could be done is have a 2nd player in the front 3 who is comfortable staying wide. Part of our attacking philosophy is to have the full backs provide width and the wide forward to drift inside. Against teams who park the bus, they defend deep but also narrow. They let our full backs in essence have the ball. We end up putting cross after cross into the box from 20-30 yards out from goal. Crosses that are going into 3 lads who arenít great in the air. We either need an amazing attacking left back or someone, who can play on the left forward position and stretch the play.  The other option is that you buy a aerially dominate centre forward who you can play in these type of games. In hindsight, Benteke would have been more useful to us this season than Sturridge. A forward like this would also help you defend set pieces better. Maybe Origi could be this player in the long run.
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Offline xbugawugax

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just saw the game

if only we could start and end the game like the way we played vs Arsenal. Quick start and an early goal. Some good management and Suckerpunch during the transition when the opposition are pushing for an equalizer.

No love for the Origi substitution? I see pages and pages of Klopp poor game management and I think the sub was absolutely spot on.

Arsenal were really going for it. And we have Divock who could literally play both roles in holding up the ball up if and when we decide to play long and stretch the defence when Arsenal push high up the pitch.

Gini busted a nut in getting into position and sweet ass finish for the goal.  Love his goal celebrations too. Him and Hendo have pure unadultererated joy when celebrating.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Are we too impatient against the weaker teams? Is it complacency?  I just don't understand how we can be so poor against terrible teams. Whatever it is it needs to be fixed pronto.
FWIW, this very group of players have shown they can do it this season. I'm convinced we'll rediscover that early form we've shown against lesser teams because I don't see why not, we're fully fit now and everyone's available.

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Itís also how the other team plays against you. Better teams still try and play football and commit players forward. It gives us the chance to counter press, win back possession high up the pitch and attack a team before they are set defensively. Thatís what has happened against Spurs and Arsenal recently.
....., Benteke would have been more useful to us this season than Sturridge. A forward like this would also help you defend set pieces better. Maybe Origi could be this player in the long run.

Nice analysis Jookie. Are you saying we should have kept Andy Carroll :)
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Offline Mighty_Red

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just saw the game

No love for the Origi substitution? I see pages and pages of Klopp poor game management and I think the sub was absolutely spot on.

Arsenal were really going for it. And we have Divock who could literally play both roles in holding up the ball up if and when we decide to play long and stretch the defence when Arsenal push high up the pitch.


Deffo, Origi did the things that have been missing from his game so much of this season. There's been a couple of games where he has wasted a good position by trying to do too much, but this time he put in a get ball in for Gini to finish.
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Offline Bergersleftpeg

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FWIW, this very group of players have shown they can do it this season. I'm convinced we'll rediscover that early form we've shown against lesser teams because I don't see why not, we're fully fit now and everyone's available.

That is what makes it even more frustrating. I thought we had solved this problem.

@Jookie - cracking post. Agree with a lot of that. Can has been in mixed form this season, but he did a good job in the air last night heading away those long balls.

The lack of patience does my nut in. Agree that Coutinho is bad for this. Barca and Bayern are great at going side to side as many times as it takes.

I agree that teams that sit deep negate the counter-press. Fine, but we should have the quality to play  quick short passes to make chances. If anyone can do that it is Coutinho, Firmino, Mane and Lallana.

As @SerbianScouser said we have seen that this season. The lads need to keep their heads, keep the ball moving and trust that the opening will come.

Offline Medellin

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With Wenger denying any rift with Sanchez just adds to the pressure he is already under.
As it is stands he completely fucked up leaving him out & tactically he fucked up too,can't remember the last time i saw so many punts upfield from an Arsenal side,apart from one header Giroud was pretty much non existent.
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Offline Classycara

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No love for the Origi substitution? I see pages and pages of Klopp poor game management and I think the sub was absolutely spot on.

Arsenal were really going for it. And we have Divock who could literally play both roles in holding up the ball up if and when we decide to play long and stretch the defence when Arsenal push high up the pitch.

Gini busted a nut in getting into position and sweet ass finish for the goal.  Love his goal celebrations too. Him and Hendo have pure unadultererated joy when celebrating.


Yep, absolutely deserves credit. Worked exactly as planned.

Learned from his mistake on Monday (leaving Coutinho on when he was clearly knackered, only for him to cramp up just as we take Lucas off for our third substitution - 45 minutes late) and took proactive steps to get a fitter player onto the pitch to keep up the high intensity.

And that's exactly what Origi's role should be - come on when we're winning, and be ready to pounce if the opposition push too far forwards. Also kept their defenders honest and won us a good free kick or two to ease the pressure. Unlucky not to score his smart back header too! His corrected run delay was almost perfect, and he played a lovely (quick and early) ball for Gini - who made the finish look easy. Hope we can continue to use him effectively off the bench, for his and our benefit

Offline meady1981

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Must admit, If had a couple as a bit of a release when I wrote that and woke regretting talking about it. Blown away by the kind stuff people said. This place is wonderful sometimes thank you to all who replied

Offline exiledintheUSA

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Cracking performance, front to back, from the 1st till the last minute.  11 more of these please.
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Offline kkjellquist

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Klopp has said he feels the team are overplaying on occasions, that at times we need to keep it simple, rather than complicating and getting lost in too much passing.

Some times when a door is closed you need to keep it simple and try turning the knob.  Against 'lesser' teams it seems we immediately break out the lock picking tools, try removing the hinges, or start calling the locksmith. 
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Offline norecat

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Well done Redmen. Three fine goals. Head scratching how this same side capitulated away to Leicester. The fundamentals flaws remain and will do so until new personnel are drafted away. Our inability to keep clean sheets is a serious problem which stretches back years.

Offline iAnfieldRoad

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The 3rd goal was a thing of beauty considering arsenal had a shot blocked,we broke and lallana set up origi brilliantly with a great pass.Origi then lays it on a plate for gini to come charging in to clinch a great win.I am 48 and when we scored the 1st goal i had tears in my eyes as it was the 1st goal my son and i have ever seen at a game at anfield [plus i love liverpool].It was his 1st game at the home of football and he is 22 although i think it was worth the wait for him.I eventually followed through with my promise to take him to a game and to see us win was extra special.I now cant wait to take him back.It was a great game and performance although arsenal came back in to it in the 2nd half we were well worth the result.
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Online Dougle

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Itís also how the other team plays against you. Better teams still try and play football and commit players forward. It gives us the chance to counter press, win back possession high up the pitch and attack a team before they are set defensively. Thatís what has happened against Spurs and Arsenal recently.

Against the dross, they defend deep and go long to a target man to gain a territorial advantage. They donít necessarily commit 6-7 players forward with an attack and they tend to keep their defensive shape more. That works against us because it negates the counter press -  in general, they just donít have the ball long enough to get it back and even if we do get it high up they pitch they normally still have their back 4 and 2 holding midfielders in position to defend. That makes it harder for us to create opportunities against the dross compared to the top 6 teams who in general will come and try to beat you by playing football (United excluded).

Our 2nd problem, is that we donít consistently deal well with teams who go long. For me, too often teams find it easy to get out and get territorial advantage off the back of playing long ball to a target man. Llorente was a brilliant out ball for Swansea in the league. Dicko was for Wolves in the FA Cup. This. Firstly stops us keeping pressure up on teams. The more we keep the ball in their half then the more chance weíll score -  though we need to be be more patient (Coutinho is the biggest culprit here by the way). Secondly, as soon as teams get it to their target man then only need a few players to support to him and itís a counter attack. We push both full backs forward on occasions and have relatively immobile centre halves (in Matip, Lucas and Klavan). It makes us vulnerable to a any quick transition. Thatís why for me Henderson is absolutely vital if you play a single man sitting in the midfield 3. Our other weakness is defending set pieces. If you are a lower to mid table team, your bunch of groks will always fancy their chances against us. We got a small full back in Clyne, 3 fellas who arenít great in the air upfront and Lallana as a midfielder. It probably the reason weíll continue to see the likes of Can and Henderson in midfield, and not the deep lying play maker a section of our fans pine for.

Whilst I think we have some problems breaking teams down, itís compounded by our inability to consistently dominate the opposition forward. Having a centre back who is aerially dominant but also lightening quick would make a massive difference in these games. Thatís easier said than done though. The other thing that could be done is have a 2nd player in the front 3 who is comfortable staying wide. Part of our attacking philosophy is to have the full backs provide width and the wide forward to drift inside. Against teams who park the bus, they defend deep but also narrow. They let our full backs in essence have the ball. We end up putting cross after cross into the box from 20-30 yards out from goal. Crosses that are going into 3 lads who arenít great in the air. We either need an amazing attacking left back or someone, who can play on the left forward position and stretch the play.  The other option is that you buy a aerially dominate centre forward who you can play in these type of games. In hindsight, Benteke would have been more useful to us this season than Sturridge. A forward like this would also help you defend set pieces better. Maybe Origi could be this player in the long run.

Fair dues for the post mate.

Second paragraph spot on. There is no point, for us, at the moment, in having the ball and playing slowly in front of a narrow, packed defence which is what we tend to end up doing. Actually there is almost no point in us having the ball at times. As for wafting chipped. paceless crosses into a redless box ..... don't get me started.

As we are now, till the end of the season, what can we do ?

1 - We need to take more risks, play quick passes in and around the box and follow up on the break down, i.e gegenpress in their box, let's call it the " fast-paced swarm suffocation chaos" method.

2 - Secondly we need to take people on in the box, Klyne, PC, Bobby, Mane, Lallana, Moreno (worth a shot in these types of games), just dribble in the box. You succeed, you are in, chaos ensues. You get fouled then it's a spotter (which we are no longer getting folks). The ball breaks ? Then apply the FPSSC method (see point 1).

The key is quick thinking and quick acting, taking risks and trusting ourselves. This will also just burn the opposition heads.

We are mind numbingly, habitually, one-paced and dull in the pattern we adapt against the bus parkers.

(I'd love to take the credit for original thinking here but I am paraaphrasing what i heard on the AI  "Under Pressure" post Leicester podcast, it was painful but interesting listening.)

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Didn't see the game as was travelling, but viewing the highlights it seemed like a typical performance against a top team. To be honest I wasn't that worried for this game, as any game in which the opposition comes out to play and is a ball playing side we do well in. Essentially the top 6.

Top win and top performances. Emre Can in particular.

However, I cannot honestly say that we'll see anything remotely similar to that performance against Burnley. In fact, Burnley will probably cause us a lot more problems, on set pieces and corners. They will well and truly park the bus and try and nick something off a corner or a free kick in our half. Unfortunately, it is the state of affairs currently that I am more confident of us beating Arsenal than Burnley. All this knowing that Burnley have the worst away record in the league. They only have 2 points on the road all season, worse than any other team. But I still expect it to be a much harder game. Maybe Klopp can pretend they are playing City or Spurs and keep telling them that. Seriously, though we are going to have to do something much different next Sunday if we want those 3 points.
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Offline him_15

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Solid win, very pleased. I am happy with our performance against the "top" team. Now if only we can do better against the "bad" team...
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Offline Tobez

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Nice analysis Jookie. Are you saying we should have kept Andy Carroll :)

Obviously tongue-in-cheek but it's interesting to see that against the park the bus teams our game plan does seem to be to cross the ball into the box where inevitably the likes of Coutinho, Lallana and Firmino are easily bullied by big centre-backs. Although Andy Carroll was an unmitigated disaster for the team, it's worth noting that Arsenal have made a habit of beating the smaller teams by using the physical strength of Giroud to great effect. Same thing with United and Ibrahimovic, Chelsea and Costa, and so on. The question is whether we a) have anyone like that in the squad already and b) whether it's worth compromising our style of play to have the extra physical presence in the box.

For me, I think Origi could well be that player and I'd actually like to see him start a few games against the 'smaller' teams, maybe with Coutinho dropping back into midfield or even one of Coutinho or Firmino dropping to the bench to allow Origi to try and impose himself a little. It;s incredibly frustrating to watch us hit it long to players who can't get the ball down in the box and Origi would give us more of a chance to do that. The alternative has to be what we were doing early on in the season where we would keep the ball on the floor and play quick passes to feet and try and break the lines, which suits Firmino et al a lot better than the slow and ponderous long-ball stuff we were playing over January and February. It's baffling why and how we stopped doing that - injuries? Manť being away?Just a lack of form? Hopefully we'll see a return to it now and a real push on to the end of the season. There's no reason why we shouldn't finish this year extremely strongly and put ourselves in contention for a few top signings in summer by getting a top 4 place.

Offline Jfor83

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yeah, but there is a pattern and its in the realms of " i told you so" that grates on me.

Fair enough, that does my head in too

Offline Jookie

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Obviously tongue-in-cheek but it's interesting to see that against the park the bus teams our game plan does seem to be to cross the ball into the box where inevitably the likes of Coutinho, Lallana and Firmino are easily bullied by big centre-backs.

It's not our plan. Or at least i don't think it is.

It's more the opposition let our full backs have the ball and condense the play in the middle. That works 2-fold -  it makes it incredibly difficult for us to play through them in central areas where the likes of Coutinho, Lallana and Firmino like to play and it forces our full backs to be the main outlet. As a result we lose patience and start pumping balls into the box 20-30 yards from goal. Pumping balls into 3 players whose bets attributes aren't in the air (even though we scored from 2 crosses against Swansea). We either need the full backs to provide better width, have a grok upfront to win headers or get Coutinho/A.N. Other to provide better width from the left.

Agree about the Origi shout. I think we maybe shouldn't start him but an early Origi sub could help in certain games.
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Jookie, Torbez, for me it's about options. The option we have with our best front players is great against teams that think they are better than us and open up a bit. Teams who feel a point is good enough leave us without an effective option. We don't need the 'big man' a-la Carroll up front, but someone who can create a threat in the air would discourage teams from letting us pump in crosses. If we could unearth the next Robbie Fowler.....

Something's just occurred to me too. As one of the 'big' teams in the league, we rarely have the feeling of a 'point is good enough'. A point against Chelsea in 'that' season is probably the only time I can remember thinking I'd take it before kick off.  This is probably because to win the league you can rarely afford to drop points.  Mid table teams get 6-10 games a season to play that way against the 'big boys' so are well drilled in it.

I think we also forget our options are often good enough to open up lower table teams, hence us still being in the top 4 despite January. We've beaten much of the 'dross' this season already (I'll be surprised if we finish the season with many teams remaining unbeaten against us).
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Offline Weytske

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Agree about the Origi shout. I think we maybe shouldn't start him but an early Origi sub could help in certain games.
I think it's also about what Klopp is doing here in the long run. Last year when we were chasing we would see much more long balls from deep up to Benteke or even Caulker, just to salvage anything. It was Klopp's way of trying to install some belief I think and take anything from any game.

But for now, I get the feeling he is trying to drill our players in our 'plan A'. Even when things aren't working Klopp doesn't really switches things around but just expects a reaction from his players to keep their heads. Which is actualy the ultimate test to see which players are the right fit to take us forward.

Offline Jookie

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Jookie, Torbez, for me it's about options. The option we have with our best front players is great against teams that think they are better than us and open up a bit. Teams who feel a point is good enough leave us without an effective option. We don't need the 'big man' a-la Carroll up front, but someone who can create a threat in the air would discourage teams from letting us pump in crosses......


You've hit the nail on the head with the comment above. We need a threat upfront who discourages teams from defending deep and narrow against us. They know it's effective at the moment so there's no reason to do anything different. If we had Llorente, for example, up front on occasions then I reckon teams would think twice about allowing us to pump ball after ball into the box. If they try and counter the crossing, they have to defend less narrow and that create space centrally for Coutinho, Lallana, Firmino etc..

For me, a dominant centre back is a must too. But I'm sure not everyone agrees with this.
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Offline didi

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Didn't see the game as was travelling, but viewing the highlights it seemed like a typical performance against a top team. To be honest I wasn't that worried for this game, as any game in which the opposition comes out to play and is a ball playing side we do well in. Essentially the top 6.

Top win and top performances. Emre Can in particular.

However, I cannot honestly say that we'll see anything remotely similar to that performance against Burnley. In fact, Burnley will probably cause us a lot more problems, on set pieces and corners. They will well and truly park the bus and try and nick something off a corner or a free kick in our half. Unfortunately, it is the state of affairs currently that I am more confident of us beating Arsenal than Burnley. All this knowing that Burnley have the worst away record in the league. They only have 2 points on the road all season, worse than any other team. But I still expect it to be a much harder game. Maybe Klopp can pretend they are playing City or Spurs and keep telling them that. Seriously, though we are going to have to do something much different next Sunday if we want those 3 points.

yep it seems the worse a team are the more chance they have off getting something from us
its surely a matter of aggression and attitude that see us fallen to these teams...think having Henderson available in these types of games, seldom bullied is Jordan

Offline Medellin

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 :wellin :wellin

Bangin the 'dont buy the s*n' on da blud, hats off to you la for getting that in.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/2i-JrQI6hWQ" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/2i-JrQI6hWQ</a>

Looking thro a few vids they all be getting it!  :wellin :wellin
Support the team,Trust & Believe.

Offline newterp

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but seriously - you can't end every sentence with blud. that's just terrible blud.

Offline Lycan

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It must be when he gets a bit irate, because here he is talking to Chris from Redmen TV quite normally for a Londoner. He even makes a little joke about the blud/fam thing towards the end. :D

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ďThere he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind, never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.Ē

Offline Buenasnoches

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It was a good performance from the reds but Arsenal were shocking. Having seen the George Graham sides with Merson and Rocastle and the Wenger teams with Henry and co, this lot are so poor. And having seen what Bayern have done to them, if we had got the third with say 20 to go, we could have really gone to town.

Agree with others about Origi - think he should be brought on a bit earlier if we are struggling to get going. Maybe same with Can too if he's not started. Both a bit more direct and both with a bit more power.
More soul than a sock with a hole

Offline the_red_pill

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It was a good performance from the reds but Arsenal were shocking. Having seen the George Graham sides with Merson and Rocastle and the Wenger teams with Henry and co, this lot are so poor. And having seen what Bayern have done to them, if we had got the third with say 20 to go, we could have really gone to town.

Agree with others about Origi - think he should be brought on a bit earlier if we are struggling to get going. Maybe same with Can too if he's not started. Both a bit more direct and both with a bit more power.
Welcome mate!

Yeah, I agree. During the game, I became keenly aware of that fact. They are a shadow of their former selves when it comes to individual talent, but yet- Wenger somehow manages to eke out 4th every season. At the moment, they've basically only got Sanchez and to a lesser extent- Ozil who could do something when the chips are down(although Ozil shrinks in big games when the pressure's really on), but apart from that, they look barren.
« Last Edit: March 8, 2017, 07:54:41 PM by the_red_pill »
Let's drink to him once more. He was a good Stalker.
In such a sumptuous festival of shite, I wouldn't be so quick to pick a winner..

But he'd make the shortlist

Online PaulF

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Interesting listening to city struggling to make meaningful chances against stoke. Stoke are by no means dire, but the top teams don't always have it their way.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.