Topic: Squad depth and rotation

[Eeyore]

Again.  All your opinion and/or everyone else who posted about it. 

No needing our three centre backs to be available for every single game to ensure we can start with two and have a third on the bench is a fact. When one of those three is Matip then I am not sure how it can be described as anything other than a huge gamble.

[BJ]

People are stupid. You only have to glance on facebook or twitter. Unfortunately alot then carry that on over onto the boards. Alot are just casual football and Liverpool fans who see nothing other than the result. Facebook and Twitter is a fucking scourge on society. Before, these people with their bullshit views and opinions would never have been heard, or laughed at if they tried to spout it in public.

Very true.  It not only applies to football but all the crazy ideas floating around gathering pace from the likes of Facebook and Twitter. 

[Macphisto80]

Anyone wanting Klopp to go is not a Liverpool supporter and never has or will be. Anyone heard saying it, in public or otherwise, instantly loses any credibility or the right to be listened to whenever it comes to matters of football in general, not just Liverpool. They should fuck off and find a more suitable club. Man City are currently recruiting for new fans.

[Mr Benn please?]

This is the point. Right now, he's learning as a centre back. If he can come back from it then he'll be strongly poised to have a good career moving forwards, if he can't it could break him. That's down to his mentality and the coaching staff. Even experienced CBs fuck up... remember Carra's record for own goals? Skrtels grappling? Yesterday Mo made more.mistakes than the kid but he also scored the goals. Hopefully Rhys will use this to find his focus and his confidence and self-beiief.  Hopefully.

Thing is, that goal Rashford scored yesterday was almost identical to the ones that Villa scored in the cup and Son's goal in the league game v Spurs. Spurs also had a couple of other chances from that position. I think the mistake that led to the corner that WBA equalised from also came from indecision between Williams and Curtis. Just before that WBA nearly scored from another 1 on 1 which Becker saved.  Southampton's goal also came through a striker finding space between the CH and right back (Williams wasn't playing but there is a clear pattern here).

It's not his fault. He's 19 and shouldn't be anywhere near our first team for a few years, if at all. In a normal season he would probably have gone to a L2 team on loan. Trent alongside him has also been poor and Fab has been playing at centre half rather than DM. So he has been very exposed. 

But opposition teams have been exploiting this frequently. It's a clear weakness in the team at present.

Phillips also lacks pace and experience so probably isn't a viable option either. 

If we don't get another centre half in, I think we will see a combination of Hendo, Matip and Fab covering the 2 centre half positions, but as we saw yesterday it's quite likely that at least one of them won't be fit at any given time.

So I guess if Rhys or Phillips play, we are going to have to gamble, push the full backs high up and try to outscore the opposition. That strategy may have worked in games v Burnley, Saints etc. and may be a better bet than the more cautious approach which has stifled our attack in recent weeks.

It may resemble the football we played in Klopp's first couple of seasons, but with a much better forward line.  And it will be more fun to watch.

Think we may be in for a bit of a rollercoaster ride for the rest of the season.

[Jookie]

Over the last couple of summer windows we have had a combined negative Net spend. Doing that whilst having huge gaps in the squad is pretty much the definition of a chronic lack of investment.

It isn't just the first team though we have a chronic lack of centre backs who can play in our system full stop. That well and truly came home to roost yesterday.

There's not huge gaps in our squad. To say such is completely false and smacks of someone over exaggerating the squad's lack of depth. You really think we've got to 2 CL finals and got 97 and 99 points with a squad with huge gap?. We have a huge gap at centre now because of 2 major long term injuries. That's the main reason. It's one that is magnified by a transfer decision we made in the summer. That transfer decision was to strengthen other positions instead of 4th choice CB.

The negative net spend over the last 2 years must be minimal. It's pretty much equals out. But using the last 2 seasons is a good way to fit the narrative that there's a chromic lack of spending. It's fair to say that those 2 years also include unprecedented financial losses due to a global pandemic so should probably have a big asterisk against your assertions. Why not use 3 or 4 seasons and look at net spend? Wouldn't that be a better picture of net spend and actually allow a minimisation of this season where finances have been unexpectedly reduced?

I'm not a massive FSG fan. I think they've got things wrong on occasions but also got things right. This idea that they are holding money that the club has earn from the transfer kitty doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure there isn't any evidence that backs this up when you look at the clubs accounts over a number of seasons. This type of nonsense actually dilutes the real question about FSG and their strategy. The real question is whether FSG should steer away from the 'spend what you earn' model the club have successfully followed over the last few years and invest some of their own money to help purchase a CB? Given the unusual circumstances I think that's a fair challenge and one that has potential financial impacts for the club in a positive or negative manner. The big assumption here is that we are not buying due to lack of funds and not availability of our top targets.

[Medellin]

Anyone wanting Klopp to go is not a Liverpool supporter and never has or will be. Anyone heard saying it, in public or otherwise, instantly loses any credibility or the right to be listened to whenever it comes to matters of football in general, not just Liverpool. They should fuck off and find a more suitable club. Man City are currently recruiting for new fans.

I'm surprised anyone takes any notice to shite spewed like that.

[keyop]

The thing is though we solved last seasons issues of lack of cover for Robbo and the front three this season instead of doing it last season when we brought no one in but banked £35m from sales. This season we added depth in certain areas but only by seriously weakening our options at centre back.

It wasn't just Lovren though we also sold the only young backup with the pace to play in our system in Hoever.

Its all so easy saying that in hindsight.

I don't recall anyone on here last summer saying 'What if we get season-ending injuries to both Virgil and Gomez, and then Matip and Thiago are also out at the same time'. The reality is that no-one could've predicted any of what has happened this season, and the decision to buy Thiago, whilst knowing that he can play in Fabinho's position if needed is about as safe a risk as you could take at the time.

Virgil had been indestructible for years and it took an assault to injure him. With him in the side we could've lost both Gomez and Matip for the whole season and still be ok - playing literally any other player next to him is still better than most PL defences. To lose Virgil, Gomez, Matip and Thiago within a couple of months is unthinkable, and the odds would be off the charts for that ever to happen again in any team.

I bet if we'd invested in a CB instead of Jota and then one of the front 3 got injured, you'd be on here with the exact same argument. You seem more interested in finding fault with what we 'should've done' last year (or even 2 years ago) than acknowledging that what has happened is unprecedented.

[Eeyore]

There's not huge gaps in our squad. To say such is completely false and smacks of someone over exaggerating the squad's lack of depth. You really think we've got to 2 CL finals and got 97 and 99 points with a squad with huge gap?. We have a huge gap at centre now because of 2 major long term injuries. That's the main reason. It's one that is magnified by a transfer decision we made in the summer. That transfer decision was to strengthen other positions instead of 4th choice CB.

Our success has been down to our main players playing week in week out. In the league last season Bobby, Virgil and Trent played all 38 games. Gini played 37, Robbo 36, Mane 35 and Mo 34.

Even if you ignore the huge issues at centre back then Adrian simply isn't good enough as a backup keeper and we still lack cover for the likes of the front three. Going back to centre back our cover is Nat Phillips who played around half the games was a 2nd tier German side and Rhys who was playing none league. 

The negative net spend over the last 2 years must be minimal. It's pretty much equals out. But using the last 2 seasons is a good way to fit the narrative that there's a chromic lack of spending. It's fair to say that those 2 years also include unprecedented financial losses due to a global pandemic so should probably have a big asterisk against your assertions. Why not use 3 or 4 seasons and look at net spend? Wouldn't that be a better picture of net spend and actually allow a minimisation of this season where finances have been unexpectedly reduced?

I'm not a massive FSG fan. I think they've got things wrong on occasions but also got things right. This idea that they are holding money that the club has earn from the transfer kitty doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure there isn't any evidence that backs this up when you look at the clubs accounts over a number of seasons. This type of nonsense actually dilutes the real question about FSG and their strategy. The real question is whether FSG should steer away from the 'spend what you earn' model the club have successfully followed over the last few years and invest some of their own money to help purchase a CB? Given the unusual circumstances I think that's a fair challenge and one that has potential financial impacts for the club in a positive or negative manner. The big assumption here is that we are not buying due to lack of funds and not availability of our top targets.

Over his entire tenure Klopp has had a Net spend that averages out at less than £20m per season. That is a joke for a club with our revenues and one that has had the kind of success we have had.

[killer-heels]

Is there any chance of any money being available in the summer?

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Anyone wanting Klopp to go is not a Liverpool supporter and never has or will be. Anyone heard saying it, in public or otherwise, instantly loses any credibility or the right to be listened to whenever it comes to matters of football in general, not just Liverpool. They should fuck off and find a more suitable club. Man City are currently recruiting for new fans.

It feels more like media shithousery than anything else.  What is the quickest way to fuck up LFC ---

1.  No fan advantage at Anfield (thanks CoVid)
2.  Ruin the refereeing, use VAR incoherently (thanks PGMOL)
3.  Media stories about invincibility, player transfer drama, and Klopp out memes (plus scheduling more games closer together during a fucking pandemic (Thanks FA & Monopolistic Shithouse Media)

Perfect storm of shit.

[Eeyore]

Its all so easy saying that in hindsight.

I don't recall anyone on here last summer saying 'What if we get season-ending injuries to both Virgil and Gomez, and then Matip and Thiago are also out at the same time'. The reality is that no-one could've predicted any of what has happened this season, and the decision to buy Thiago, whilst knowing that he can play in Fabinho's position if needed is about as safe a risk as you could take at the time.

Virgil had been indestructible for years and it took an assault to injure him. With him in the side we could've lost both Gomez and Matip for the whole season and still be ok - playing literally any other player next to him is still better than most PL defences. To lose Virgil, Gomez, Matip and Thiago within a couple of months is unthinkable, and the odds would be off the charts for that ever to happen again in any team.

I bet if we'd invested in a CB instead of Jota and then one of the front 3 got injured, you'd be on here with the exact same argument. You seem more interested in finding fault with what we 'should've done' last year (or even 2 years ago) than acknowledging that what has happened is unprecedented.

There were dozens of posters saying it was madness to go into the season with only 3 senior centre backs.

[Eeyore]

Is there any chance of any money being available in the summer?

I think only paying a small down payment on Jota may well effect that.

[TSC]

Sky sports were saying earlier an ex Arsenal defender was offered to Liverpool last week but Liverpool didn’t pursue.

Prob already posted somewhere here like.

[Suareznumber7]

No needing our three centre backs to be available for every single game to ensure we can start with two and have a third on the bench is a fact. When one of those three is Matip then I am not sure how it can be described as anything other than a huge gamble.

Nope, not a fact at all. That’s your opinion of how a manager should use his squad.

[mickeydocs]

Is there any chance of any money being available in the summer?

The problem is that if we don't make the top 4 then we will have the problem of revenues reduced even further.
FSG have messed up from a position of strength by not investing in the team.

[CraigDS]

FSG have messed up from a position of strength by not investing in the team.

I mean we did invest. We brought in the 4th top attacker we had been calling out for, and in mid-Oct I doubt there were many who would not have happily taken the squad we had over the on that won the PL the previous season.

It's hard to plan for your two first choice centre backs getting season ending injuries within a few weeks of each other. Just one of those not getting that injury and our season would look massively different right now.

In hindsight it's easy to say we should have bought another CB - but there were loads on here saying we had enough (I'd not mind betting quite a few who are now saying it was a mistake not to buy one).

[killer-heels]

I don’t agree at all with the shouts of the squad not being invested in. Part of the reason that other teams net spends are so high is because they replace players who they have messed up on. Also our wage bill has ballooned and we are still catching up in terms of revenue who have similar wage bills.

If there is a criticism, and again it’s hindsight, is that if anything Klopp and Edwards have held onto too many players right now and the squad if anything seems a bit bloated.

Having said that, it doesn’t excuse the situation now. It’s absolutely mad the stance they are taking.

[El_Macca_17]

Sky sports were saying earlier an ex Arsenal defender was offered to Liverpool last week but Liverpool didn’t pursue.

Prob already posted somewhere here like.

Sokratis Papastathopolous - it was mentioned last week I think.

[Eeyore]

I mean we did invest. We brought in the 4th top attacker we had been calling out for, and in mid-Oct I doubt there were many who would not have happily taken the squad we had over the on that won the PL the previous season.

It's hard to plan for your two first choice centre backs getting season ending injuries within a few weeks of each other. Just one of those not getting that injury and our season would look massively different right now.

In hindsight it's easy to say we should have bought another CB - but there were loads on here saying we had enough (I'd not mind betting quite a few who are now saying it was a mistake not to buy one).

The lack of investment was at the start of 19/20 though Craig. That total lack of investment meant we had too many issues to address at the start of this season. It is the knock on effect.

At the start of this season we ideally needed a backup keeper who could use his feet. Cover for Robbo, another centre back and cover for the front three.

Now next season we will need another centre back or two plus the potential loss of both Gini and Milner. Add in the front three ageing together, and we have a lot to address in the summer.   

[Jookie]

Our success has been down to our main players playing week in week out. In the league last season Bobby, Virgil and Trent played all 38 games. Gini played 37, Robbo 36, Mane 35 and Mo 34.

When City won the league in 2018/19 they had 9 players who played in 30+ Premier league games.

In 2017/18 they again had 9 players who played in 30+ Premier league games.

In 2016/17 Chelsea had 8 players who played in 30+ Premier league games.

In comparison we had 8 players last season. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that every good team relies on their top players to play a lot.

Even if you ignore the huge issues at centre back then Adrian simply isn't good enough as a backup keeper and we still lack cover for the likes of the front three.

Adrian isn't good enough but I don't know the reason for keeping him. Maybe it was for 1 more season to make sure Kelleher was good enough to transition into that No.2 spot. An insurance policy.

The notion we still lack cover for the front 3 is wild. We've got a 40M forward in reserve (Jota) plus Shaqiri, Minamino, Origi and AOC who can and have all played in the front 3. How many teams in the World have a 4th forward as good as Jota. Then how many teams have 5th, 6th and 7th choice forwards as good as Shaqiri, Minamino and Origi?

Going back to centre back our cover is Nat Phillips who played around half the games was a 2nd tier German side and Rhys who was playing none league. 

Rhys Williams and Nat Phillips were 5th and 6th choice centre backs at the start of the season. In the previous few seasons go and take a look how many times we had to play our 5th and 6th choice centre backs in any game of importance (i.e. not a domestic cup)? You'll probably find the answer is a handful. I can only think of 2 occasions. Brighton away a few years back when Wijnaldum and Can played centre back. And Bayern at home in the CL in 2019 when Fabinho (5th choice) played. I doubt anyone at the club envisioned us having to use Williams and Phillips on a regular basis this season. It's only occurred due to 2 major injuries in the one position in the space of about a month.

Over his entire tenure Klopp has had a Net spend that averages out at less than £20m per season. That is a joke for a club with our revenues and one that has had the kind of success we have had.

We spend what we earn. That's pretty much the business model FSG make the club follow. Unless you have some concrete evidence that something else is happening? We have a big wage bill. One of the biggest in the World.

Had a quick look at some other clubs net spend over the last 4 seasons (the time period I suggested). I didn't really look at Barcelona, Real or Manchester United since those 3 have much bigger resources than us over that cumulative period. I'd excluded PSG, City and Chelsea from the comparison for obvious reasons. Actually thought Bayern, Juventus and Arsenal were the best comparators when you look at cumulative revenues over that 4 year period.

Juventus net spend is approx 40M per year over that period.

Bayern net spend is approx. 30M per year over that period.

Arsenal net spend is approx 55M per year over that period.


For comparative purposes I looked at the net spend for Liverpool using the same source. We've got a net spend of approx 30M per year over that period. Comparative to Bayern and Juventus but surprisingly less than Arsenal. Obviously not all revenue goes on transfers and if you look at wage bill comparison between Arsenal and ourselves it shows, if figures are to be believed, that we currently spend about 40M more than Arsenal per annum. We've also had major infrastructure projects that Arsenal have not had in this 4 year period.

Al it would be good to hear your evidence that doesn't support the notion that the club spends what it earns or that other clubs with comparative resources are spending much more than us when you take a reasonable period of time to account for any yearly peaks or troughs in expenditure. I'm not trying to be an FSG apologist here and I think we should hold them to account. But by holding them to account it has to be something that is reasonable and is an argument that is anchored by some facts. Particularly if that accusation is about a chronic lack of spending rather than a Q about their ability to tweak their operating model given our current circumstances.

[killer-heels]

The lack of investment was at the start of 19/20 though Craig. That total lack of investment meant we had too many issues to address at the start of this season. It is the knock on effect.

At the start of this season we ideally needed a backup keeper who could use his feet. Cover for Robbo, another centre back and cover for the front three.

Now next season we will need another centre back or two plus the potential loss of both Gini and Milner. Add in the front three ageing together, and we have a lot to address in the summer.   

To be fair, a lot of the reasons why we may need all those is because of other players not being reliable through fitness. We may have a lot to do, but it’s more than doable.

[McSquared]

Having said that, it doesn’t excuse the situation now. It’s absolutely mad the stance they are taking.

All that hindsight stuff is a load of bollocks anyway. We lost both CBs in the first half of the season with a chance to strengthen in January. Not taking that chance on Jan 1st is madness. You wont need hindsight to say you should have bought a CB now come the end of the season

[Fruity]

Sky sports were saying earlier an ex Arsenal defender was offered to Liverpool last week but Liverpool didn’t pursue.

Prob already posted somewhere here like.

Sol Campbell?

[aw1991]

Sky sports were saying earlier an ex Arsenal defender was offered to Liverpool last week but Liverpool didn’t pursue.

Prob already posted somewhere here like.

I know things are bad but no way we are signing Senderos

[Red1976]

Have to disagree with many of the comments on here and others who have commented on my post.

Our full backs have been getting forward but have not been as effective as in the last 2 season regarding crosses. It is just a slight dip in form and maybe we all saw that coming after 2 great seasons previously.

What Man Utd last night, and other teams (e.g. Southampton), have done is to play balls behind our full backs which makes us vulnerable to counter attacks and has always done so. In previous seasons our defensive midfielders have covered and Henderson takes a lot of credit for what he has done in that regard. Buying a centre back will not change that issue as it needs players to drop in and cover other players, and that has been lacking this season compared to the last 2 seasons. 

In my opinion there is not a huge amount that is wrong. A slight tactical tweek to take into account balls behind our fall backs and  win a game and we are back in business. I am sure Klopp and his backroom staff are working on that and I am optimistic that our performances will get better.

This poor run will help us in the long run because it will show Klopp where we need to strengthen and the players we need to let go and sell.

[Eeyore]

When City won the league in 2018/19 they had 9 players who played in 30+ Premier league games.

In 2017/18 they again had 9 players who played in 30+ Premier league games.

In 2016/17 Chelsea had 8 players who played in 30+ Premier league games.

In comparison we had 8 players last season. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that every good team relies on their top players to play a lot.

In those three teams you mentioned there Chelsea 16/17 is the only team who had a player play all 38 League games. That was Azpilicueta. Last season we had three outfield players who played all 38. That was Virgil, Bobby and Trent. Personally I think that happened because we didn't have adequate cover for any of them.

Adrian isn't good enough but I don't know the reason for keeping him. Maybe it was for 1 more season to make sure Kelleher was good enough to transition into that No.2 spot. An insurance policy.

The notion we still lack cover for the front 3 is wild. We've got a 40M forward in reserve (Jota) plus Shaqiri, Minamino, Origi and AOC who can and have all played in the front 3. How many teams in the World have a 4th forward as good as Jota. Then how many teams have 5th, 6th and 7th choice forwards as good as Shaqiri, Minamino and Origi?

Jota and in fits and starts Origi are the only ones to have shown they have been good enough to play in the front three. AOC and Shaq are midfield players and Minamino simply isn't strong or quick enough to play in the front three.

Rhys Williams and Nat Phillips were 5th and 6th choice centre backs at the start of the season. In the previous few seasons go and take a look how many times we had to play our 5th and 6th choice centre backs in any game of importance (i.e. not a domestic cup)? You'll probably find the answer is a handful. I can only think of 2 occasions. Brighton away a few years back when Wijnaldum and Can played centre back. And Bayern at home in the CL in 2019 when Fabinho (5th choice) played. I doubt anyone at the club envisioned us having to use Williams and Phillips on a regular basis this season. It's only occurred due to 2 major injuries in the one position in the space of about a month.

Matip has a horrendous injury record and can't play week in week out and Fabinho is a defensive midfield player. The biggest issue with Williams and Phillips is the same problem as Adrian that simply do not fit with how we play the game.

We spend what we earn. That's pretty much the business model FSG make the club follow. Unless you have some concrete evidence that something else is happening? We have a big wage bill. One of the biggest in the World.

Had a quick look at some other clubs net spend over the last 4 seasons (the time period I suggested). I didn't really look at Barcelona, Real or Manchester United since those 3 have much bigger resources than us over that cumulative period. I'd excluded PSG, City and Chelsea from the comparison for obvious reasons. Actually thought Bayern, Juventus and Arsenal were the best comparators when you look at cumulative revenues over that 4 year period.

Juventus net spend is approx 40M per year over that period.

Bayern net spend is approx. 30M per year over that period.

Arsenal net spend is approx 55M per year over that period.


For comparative purposes I looked at the net spend for Liverpool using the same source. We've got a net spend of approx 30M per year over that period. Comparative to Bayern and Juventus but surprisingly less than Arsenal. Obviously not all revenue goes on transfers and if you look at wage bill comparison between Arsenal and ourselves it shows, if figures are to be believed, that we currently spend about 40M more than Arsenal per annum. We've also had major infrastructure projects that Arsenal have not had in this 4 year period.

Al it would be good to hear your evidence that doesn't support the notion that the club spends what it earns or that other clubs with comparative resources are spending much more than us when you take a reasonable period of time to account for any yearly peaks or troughs in expenditure. I'm not trying to be an FSG apologist here and I think we should hold them to account. But by holding them to account it has to be something that is reasonable and is an argument that is anchored by some facts. Particularly if that accusation is about a chronic lack of spending rather than a Q about their ability to tweak their operating model given our current circumstances.

It all depends on how you see the Club.

Are we happy to live within our means and have the occasional season when we win things, when we have a genius manager and things go our way. If you are okay with that then living out of the till is fine.

If you want the Club to go on to the next level and genuinely compete with the biggest clubs on the planet year in year out then it needs owners who are prepared to invest in the clubs future.

[Eeyore]

Have to disagree with many of the comments on here and others who have commented on my post.

Our full backs have been getting forward but have not been as effective as in the last 2 season regarding crosses. It is just a slight dip in form and maybe we all saw that coming after 2 great seasons previously.

What Man Utd last night, and other teams (e.g. Southampton), have done is to play balls behind our full backs which makes us vulnerable to counter attacks and has always done so. In previous seasons our defensive midfielders have covered and Henderson takes a lot of credit for what he has done in that regard. Buying a centre back will not change that issue as it needs players to drop in and cover other players, and that has been lacking this season compared to the last 2 seasons. 

In my opinion there is not a huge amount that is wrong. A slight tactical tweek to take into account balls behind our fall backs and  win a game and we are back in business. I am sure Klopp and his backroom staff are working on that and I am optimistic that our performances will get better.

This poor run will help us in the long run because it will show Klopp where we need to strengthen and the players we need to let go and sell.

Against Southampton our two defensive midfield players were playing at centre back. Against United yesterday Hendo was out injured and Fabinho was playing in the back four. When the full backs push on then the 6 needs to make it a three at the back. That means Hendo covering the full backs or Fabinho dropping in between the centre backs or a mixture of the two. That can't happen when they aren't there.

[Jookie]

The lack of investment was at the start of 19/20 though Craig. That total lack of investment meant we had too many issues to address at the start of this season. It is the knock on effect.

At the start of this season we ideally needed a backup keeper who could use his feet. Cover for Robbo, another centre back and cover for the front three.

Now next season we will need another centre back or two plus the potential loss of both Gini and Milner. Add in the front three ageing together, and we have a lot to address in the summer.   

Maybe we wanted to do all those things but the Covid-19 pandemic put pay to that with finances reduced by a significant amount. Maybe last summer was always planned to be a big one in the transfer market (like summer 2018) to push the squad on after achieving multiple season challenging for CL and/or the title.

Maybe they where never going to spend anything on a CB whether there was a global pandemic or not. Maybe Covid19 gives the club an easy excuse not to spend.

With hindsight and skewing a few of the facts anyone can build an argument to fit what they want to believe.

Form a holistic perspective though, the club's recruitment and use of funds on wages/transfers has been a huge driver in the success of the team over the last 3-4 seasons. Circumstances have conspired against them to ensure the gamble they took in the summer around centre back has backfired. It's about the only thing they've got wrong in a few seasons and it required some unusual circumstances for it to come to fruition. For me the successes of the recruitment team outweigh the failures. Those successes are collective successes that include both Klopp and FSG - Mike Gordon.

[Yorkykopite]

We sold Lovren and Hoever which weakened us massively at centre back to do that.

Just wondering Al, if I look back through RAWK will I hear you saying that at the time?

The reason I ask, is because it never occurred to me at all. I knew I didn't want Lovren to stay. And although I expected big things eventually of Hoever I thought the money Wolves were prepared to pay was interesting. But above all I was concerned about having four, FOUR, international class centre backs on our books when there were kids coming through the youth system and who needed the whiff of a chance to play to make their lives worthwhile.

I still think that four international centre backs is too many. But of course what fucked us up was completely unforeseeable. Two major season-ending injuries to our preferred centre back pairing (although, again, if you predicted this might happen I will tip my hat to you).

The mistake, if that's what it is, was not to start looking for another top class centre back once Joe got done in.

[Kennys from heaven]

Not scoring is what has lost  us points.  Keep scoring and it almost doesn’t matter how many mistakes you make.  Some teams are missing the supporters more than others and we are one of them.  Using Shankly’s Holy Trinity of manger/team/fans, you can’t take one of those out and expect the same performances.  I know lack of fans in grounds is the same for everyone but for us the fans in the ground is the epitome of 12th man. 

We've only not scored in a couple of games - that was one of our "records" that was constantly being harped on about. Not scoring enough is another matter of course, but lapses and mistakes that lead to us conceding have cost us dearly recently.

And as for your second part - I could not agree more. I truly believe that lack of fans is what's hurting us more than anyone or anything at the mo. There's no-one there to pick us up and give us the boost when we need it (and also the kick up the arse that is sometimes needed!), but I will say (and not aimed at you at all mate - general observation) that you don't need to be in the ground to support the side well which is Rushyman's point. Social and mainstream media is read by players and coaches and seeing some of the things that are being posted and written does have an effect and has been mind-blowingly appalling.

Said it to a manc supporting friend of mine the other day - I would still not swap places at all with them or any other club for that matter and then ran out the old (but true!) cliche. Form's temporary. Class is permanent!

Shit times though all-around, but it's not as if it's another 30 year wait type slump.

[Kennys from heaven]

Sky sports were saying earlier an ex Arsenal defender was offered to Liverpool last week but Liverpool didn’t pursue.

Prob already posted somewhere here like.

The reason being is that Arsenal have not had a decent defender since Tony Adams, so if they were binned off by them recently, they must be REALLY shit! 

[Black Bull Nova]

Having another CB would have made little difference to our recent results, we might have won the cup game and lasted out one of our 1-0s but its goals that have been the problem. We've been the better team in all our recent games but failed to get past the many buses parked in our way and defensively only really exposed last night (excepting the winner).

Anyway, I just noticed that if had won yesterday we would be playing

City Home (sunday evening)
West Ham Home (wednesday)
Leicester Away (saturday lunchtime)
Leipzig Away (tuesday)
Everton Home (saturday)

4 games in 10 days followed by the Derby rematch (not forgetting 3 league games before we play City next week which would have made 8 games in 24 days)

So less bothered now than I was yesterday, we have not got the CBs for a schedule like that

[Black Bull Nova]

We've only not scored in a couple of games - that was one of our "records" that was constantly being harped on about. Not scoring enough is another matter of course, but lapses and mistakes that lead to us conceding have cost us dearly recently.

And as for your second part - I could not agree more. I truly believe that lack of fans is what's hurting us more than anyone or anything at the mo. There's no-one there to pick us up and give us the boost when we need it (and also the kick up the arse that is sometimes needed!), but I will say (and not aimed at you at all mate - general observation) that you don't need to be in the ground to support the side well which is Rushyman's point. Social and mainstream media is read by players and coaches and seeing some of the things that are being posted and written does have an effect and has been mind-blowingly appalling.

Said it to a manc supporting friend of mine the other day - I would still not swap places at all with them or any other club for that matter and then ran out the old (but true!) cliche. Form's temporary. Class is permanent!

Shit times though all-around, but it's not as if it's another 30 year wait type slump.

Good post, what has made Everton stronger and us weaker is the lack of fans at the game.

22 years ago a young Jamie Carragher scored 2 own goals at home to United and we lost the game 3-2 (yet again), our fans support the players at moments like this and it makes them stronger.

[Suareznumber7]

It all depends on how you see the Club.

Are we happy to live within our means and have the occasional season when we win things, when we have a genius manager and things go our way. If you are okay with that then living out of the till is fine.

If you want the Club to go on to the next level and genuinely compete with the biggest clubs on the planet year in year out then it needs owners who are prepared to invest in the clubs future.

I'm glad to see that you have finally admitted why you hate the owners.  You just want them to pump hundreds of millions of pounds into the club like the owners of PSG, City, and Chelsea. 

[Black Bull Nova]

If you want the Club to go on to the next level and genuinely compete with the biggest clubs on the planet year in year out then it needs owners who are prepared to invest in the clubs future.

The thing is we are competing with the biggest clubs on then planet and more than often outperforming them, we've just had some bad injuries, bad luck and a bad month.

With Jota and without Everton's assaults on Thiago and Van Dijk, we'd be top (again), I'm sure of it.

[Johnny Foreigner]

I'm glad to see that you have finally admitted why you hate the owners.  You just want them to pump hundreds of millions of pounds into the club like the owners of PSG, City, and Chelsea. 

Hundreds of millions of pounds ? The net spend is around a mid-table club and FSG did a good thing getting Klopp around.

Hating the owners ? wild guess; you're from US ?

[Marty 85]

In those three teams you mentioned there Chelsea 16/17 is the only team who had a player play all 38 League games. That was Azpilicueta. Last season we had three outfield players who played all 38. That was Virgil, Bobby and Trent. Personally I think that happened because we didn't have adequate cover for any of them.

Chelsea also won the league that season. Point is, you play your strongest 11 in the league, fitness permitting of course. Those 3 are irreplaceable in their position. Hell, i'd play the same 11 in each of the 38 games if it meant we get 99 points each season, like last. Remove one of our strongest 11 and we'll see a drop in points over a season, lose 2 and we'll drop even more. Lose 2 starting CB's and you may aswell add a multiplier to those dropped points.

[Suareznumber7]

Hundreds of millions of pounds ? The net spend is around a mid-table club and FSG did a good thing getting Klopp around.

Hating the owners ? wild guess; you're from US ?

If you can't see that he hates the owners you should look at his post history. 

[mrantarctica]

I think from the business side of things FSG are probably doing the wise thing. When the economy is how it is and our revenues are being cut by the lack of fans in the game and the lack of certainty going forward, it is very unwise to make big spending decisions unless you are certain they will pay off for you. People are comparing us to other big spenders but how many of them are spending big in this transfer window? In general, most clubs are just quietly waiting to see what will happen and hoping that things will start to return to normalcy in the next 12-24 months or so. I think the owners have invested in the club. That's why we've been competing at the top level for the last 3 seasons, and but for a few freak injuries and a worldwide pandemic out of their control, I reckon we'd probably be top of the table still. Even with all that, we are only 2-3 wins from the top with half the season to play.

I think it's also the case that we can't really find too many players who are sensible signings that we can bring in for the longer term, for the right price. Other clubs will be reluctant to sell good players half way through a season, and they know we really need a CB and so they are probably thinking 'lets just add 10m or 20m and see if they will go for it'. This isn't a great time to buy under these circumstances. Add to that, if we really want to solve our issues then its not just any CB, we would need someone that allows us to play a high line and allow Trent and Robbo to bomb forward. That means an athletic, very pacy, ball playing centre half. There aren't many of these to begin with, so anyone thinking that we can just go out and pluck one off the world class defender tree is just dreaming. In the absence of signings, we are just going to have find solutions that we already have within the squad.

If anything, I think we should be looking at some of the players that have perhaps been around a bit and struggled to really stake a claim for a regular starting spot for a variety of reasons (e.g. injury, form,  whatever else). I'm looking at Ox, Naby, Origi, Shaq etc. These are all senior pros that we need to step up and start producing high quality and to be honest I've not consistently seen anything from that lot that really threatens the incumbents in their positions. Of course there are some good periods for those players but they are too short lived to give the manager confidence that they can step into the first team when the regulars aren't on form or are injured, or just provide something a little different when we can't play the way we normally do.

[BJ]

We've only not scored in a couple of games - that was one of our "records" that was constantly being harped on about. Not scoring enough is another matter of course, but lapses and mistakes that lead to us conceding have cost us dearly recently.

And as for your second part - I could not agree more. I truly believe that lack of fans is what's hurting us more than anyone or anything at the mo. There's no-one there to pick us up and give us the boost when we need it (and also the kick up the arse that is sometimes needed!), but I will say (and not aimed at you at all mate - general observation) that you don't need to be in the ground to support the side well which is Rushyman's point. Social and mainstream media is read by players and coaches and seeing some of the things that are being posted and written does have an effect and has been mind-blowingly appalling.

Said it to a manc supporting friend of mine the other day - I would still not swap places at all with them or any other club for that matter and then ran out the old (but true!) cliche. Form's temporary. Class is permanent!

Shit times though all-around, but it's not as if it's another 30 year wait type slump.

You only have to look at the Wolves game ( first game fans were allowed back) to see the difference in performance.  It’s one that I’d rather not have tested but at least we now know it’s not a myth.  The players are still aware that they’re playing for us though.  They’ve had half a season to get used to the idea of empty stadiums, now it’s time to show us what they’re made of.  I’m behind them all the way.  This team is special, you don’t lose that overnight.