Topic: The Last of Us.... Part II

[Macphisto80]

Fair enough mate, I didn't find Abby unlikeable and I might be mistaken but I'm pretty sure Ellie knew the reason.

She was never told. Either by Abby or any of the other side characters she's mercilessly allowed to slaughter without them even giving a hint as to why what happened happened. The whole premise of "the lie" was just put out like a firework in a puddle of piss in a poorly placed flashback scene and that was that. Bravo, Mr Druckmann! *claps hands*. Masterful storytelling talent, that. The one kernel of of drama that ties the whole first game and the second together, and this is how he handled it through a framing device in flashbacks that are out of place and do nothing but interrupt the flow of the story in the game. It really is Game of Thrones Series 8 all over again.

[Wool]

Far too harsh on ME3 to be compared to this drivel. At least in ME3 you still retained the connection between the characters you attached yourself to, and when it came to the final suicide mission, you were forced in deciding who lived and died, as you were with some other pretty massive choices throughout. This game wishes it even had a modicum of that kind of drama. Instead we got Emmerdale Farm levels of melodramatic bollocks. Whether or not you agreed with the ending of ME3 (and that was the crux of the complaints) it was still compelling throughout the main story, and they managed to rectify and fix some of the damage done by the original ending choices. This, however....good luck trying to retcon any of it.

Honestly mate, your posts in this thread have been pure nonsense. It’s ok to not like the game, but the level of hyperbole is ridiculous. Instead of “this game wasn’t for me” everything always has to be The Worst Thing Ever written by A. Clown and bla bla bla, what discussion is there to be had from that?

[Macphisto80]

Honestly mate, your posts in this thread have been pure nonsense. It’s ok to not like the game, but the level of hyperbole is ridiculous. Instead of “this game wasn’t for me” everything always has to be The Worst Thing Ever written by A. Clown and bla bla bla, what discussion is there to be had from that?

How is it nonsense? I've already backed up my reasoning behind my critism of it. You loved it. Fair enough. Some didn't, and have given perfectly valid reasons why, and the reasons behind it are all purely narrative driven. It's as simple as this: I've said it once, I'll say it again: if you make a game that is purely narrative driven and you don't give the player any choice or say, and then pontificate to people that it's "not supposed to be fun" and then fuck up your own message by contradicting everything you were shooting for because you made the game fun, then that is a pure failure in story telling, and seeing we're basing opinions on the fact that its a story driven game, then it's utter, complete, absolute, total bollocks. It failed on so many levels. It's getting 10 out of 10's. Being called a masterpiece. Being hailed as a Schindlers List of games. Everything else is "John Wick" compared to it. These aren't my words. These are words from people more important than me, apparently, so their word is golden. And you're saying I'm talking nonsense? Behave. The gameplay is solid; story is pure shite! Seeing that the game is built around a shite narrative, it's honest for me to say that it gets 50% right and the rest a zero. Ergo 5/10 from me. Bang average.

[naYoRHa2b]

It wasn't hailed as the schindlers list of games. A simple comparison was made because video games aren't usually so relentless in a violent emotional assault. The writer found it harrowing, exhausting etc. Like he did when he watched Schindler's list, then you got idiots on twitter going "don't compare this to schindlers list!"

Then you get Jason Schreier doing what he does best and saying I'd ask my dead ancestors if they thought tlou2 should be compared to schindlers list but they died in Auschwitz. I mean fucking hell

[Something Worse]

He's still missed the point there, or is intentionally strawmanning.

Schindler's List is harrowing and masterful storytelling.

TLOU2 is a fucking video game where you kill a hundred people and a bunch of OTT zombies.

It's nothing to do with the content and everything to do with the craft.

[Wool]

How is it nonsense? I've already backed up my reasoning behind my critism of it. You loved it. Fair enough. Some didn't, and have given perfectly valid reasons why, and the reasons behind it are all purely narrative driven. It's as simple as this: I've said it once, I'll say it again: if you make a game that is purely narrative driven and you don't give the player any choice or say, and then pontificate to people that it's "not supposed to be fun" and then fuck up your own message by contradicting everything you were shooting for because you made the game fun, then that is a pure failure in story telling, and seeing we're basing opinions on the fact that its a story driven game, then it's utter, complete, absolute, total bollocks. It failed on so many levels. It's getting 10 out of 10's. Being called a masterpiece. Being hailed as a Schindlers List of games. Everything else is "John Wick" compared to it. These aren't my words. These are words from people more important than me, apparently, so their word is golden. And you're saying I'm talking nonsense? Behave. The gameplay is solid; story is pure shite! Seeing that the game is built around a shite narrative, it's honest for me to say that it gets 50% right and the rest a zero. Ergo 5/10 from me. Bang average.

No you haven't though, you haven't backed up some of what you've said with examples. Instead you're just calling names.

The daft pacing, the jarring flashbacks breaking up the momentum of the game. The boring love triangles that lead to extended sections and cut scenes in the game that felt like I was watching an episode of Hollyoaks, and the utter contrivances and obvious contradictions of the supposed moral of the story by the end of it.

Fair criticism. A lot of that is subjective and I had the same issue with the pacing fwiw, but the more I reflected on it the more I realised it was deliberately done so you feel the exhausation of the journey these characters are on. Don't agree on the contradiction or contrivance though, which bits in particular are?

Literally every big decision made by the characters in this didn't make any sense at all. Supposed big shock events or revelatory moments put in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Like what? You don't back any of this up or even say what you're on about. I'm curious to know which big decisions don't make any sense at all.

We've already played through an entire game already in the first game enough to understand and realise this. The game wanting me to somehow feel sympathy because I killed a dog or a pregnant woman, when I've already spent 30+ hours in both games slaughtering my way through men, women (of which many could have been pregnant, who could tell?). It's all nonsensical drivel, trying to teach you morals and be all profound. I just didn't care, and the worst aspect of this game is that it makes you play about 70% - and with new characters that I didn't particularly like - of it trying to convince you to do so otherwise and fails. None of it is interesting at all. Everything that was interesting with the story was perfectly a beautifully wrapped at the end of the first game with an underlying note of apprehension regarding the lie. The way that this game handled that through it's writing turned what could have been a very dramatic bit of storytelling into a muddled, condescending, manipulative, confusing, boring, and ultimately pointless procession. If this was a TV show - and I hope to God HBO goes with their own script and keeps Druckmann the fuck out of it - this story would be laughed at as an abject failure.

If you didn't care that's fine, maybe the game failed for you, it doesn't make it any of what you said though. People keep saying that the only thing the game has to say is “violence = bad” and yes that’s the message that’s most overt, but it’s so far from being the only message in the game. Ironically these people are doing the very thing they’re criticising the game for because to just say all the game has to say is “violence bad” is to ignore everything else. To me that core theme was merely used as a vehicle to push forward its other theme of how our biases/perceptions of others, and our unwilling to empathise with others, is what feeds into this cycle of violence and perpetuates it. That's why the game turns the tables on you and forces you to acknowledge this

Spoiler

by making you play as Abby

[close]

- and again, if this didn't work for you that's completely fine, I'm just saying the hyperbole is too much.

[Macphisto80]

No you haven't though, you haven't backed up some of what you've said with examples. Instead you're just calling names.
Fair criticism. A lot of that is subjective and I had the same issue with the pacing fwiw, but the more I reflected on it the more I realised it was deliberately done so you feel the exhausation of the journey these characters are on. Don't agree on the contradiction or contrivance though, which bits in particular are?
Like what? You don't back any of this up or even say what you're on about. I'm curious to know which big decisions don't make any sense at all.
If you didn't care that's fine, maybe the game failed for you, it doesn't make it any of what you said though. People keep saying that the only thing the game has to say is “violence = bad” and yes that’s the message that’s most overt, but it’s so far from being the only message in the game. Ironically these people are doing the very thing they’re criticising the game for because to just say all the game has to say is “violence bad” is to ignore everything else. To me that core theme was merely used as a vehicle to push forward its other theme of how our biases/perceptions of others, and our unwilling to empathise with others, is what feeds into this cycle of violence and perpetuates it. That's why the game turns the tables on you and forces you to acknowledge this

Spoiler

by making you play as Abby

[close]

- and again, if this didn't work for you that's completely fine, I'm just saying the hyperbole is too much.

Calling names? What?

You see that title on the thread there? What's it say? It says Last of Us Part II, doesn't it? Therefor isn't it supposed to be somewhere you post your opinions on that, right? I thought it was? Well, fuck me pink for being critical of something that I found to be absolute shite in a major area of a game, that you know, is pretty important to said game and franchise, just like it would be in any other narratively driven media, like a book, films, TV show. Or, wait...are only servile opinions allowed when it comes to a Naughty Dog game, and in particular these games? Like is it OK if I say I loved the first game, but thought the second wasn't great? Or am I only allowed to state that I loved the both of them, and that there were no faults or flaws whatsoever, and that it was the best game ever made, and that it's the benchmark for everything ever written and ever will be written? It's a video game though, right? So am I allowed to say I had fun in this game, even though I did and the game's creator himself said I wasn't supposed to? I dunno.

Confused.com

[naYoRHa2b]

He's still missed the point there, or is intentionally strawmanning.

Schindler's List is harrowing and masterful storytelling.

TLOU2 is a fucking video game where you kill a hundred people and a bunch of OTT zombies.

It's nothing to do with the content and everything to do with the craft.

If it has nothing to do with the content why are you offended? Because if it's craftsmanship you have an issue with then it wouldn't be sitting as one of the highest rated games to ever release.

[Macphisto80]

He's still missed the point there, or is intentionally strawmanning.

Schindler's List is harrowing and masterful storytelling.

TLOU2 is a fucking video game where you kill a hundred people and a bunch of OTT zombies.

It's nothing to do with the content and everything to do with the craft.

It's mental, isn't it? He tried to be all profound and artistic and got called out and laughed at for it because he was talking bollocks. Now he's just doing some world class backtracking and looking like an even bigger eejit.

[Wool]

Calling names? What?

You see that title on the thread there? What's it say? It says Last of Us Part II, doesn't it? Therefor isn't it supposed to be somewhere you post your opinions on that, right? I thought it was? Well, fuck me pink for being critical of something that I found to be absolute shite in a major area of a game, that you know, is pretty important to said game and franchise, just like it would be in any other narratively driven media, like a book, films, TV show. Or, wait...are only servile opinions allowed when it comes to a Naughty Dog game, and in particular these games? Like is it OK if I say I loved the first game, but thought the second wasn't great? Or am I only allowed to state that I loved the both of them, and that there were no faults or flaws whatsoever, and that it was the best game ever made, and that it's the benchmark for everything ever written and ever will be written? It's a video game though, right? So am I allowed to say I had fun in this game, even though I did and the game's creator himself said I wasn't supposed to? I dunno.

Confused.com

I mean, you had the time to write this post, but couldn't spare the time to address any of my questions. Still haven't backed up any of what you've said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What are the contradictions? Which big decisions don't make sense?

[Macphisto80]

I mean, you had the time to write this post, but couldn't spare the time to address any of my questions. Still haven't backed up any of what you've said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What are the contradictions? Which big decisions don't make sense?

What's there to back up? Read all the posts. I've picked apart and given ample reason as to why I thought it was shit. There's plenty to sift through to explain it. Fill your boots.

Oh, and I'm also a very fast typer.

[AndyMuller]

I’ve never known a game to have so much hate against it and have so much love for it at the same time.

[Something Worse]

If it has nothing to do with the content why are you offended? Because if it's craftsmanship you have an issue with then it wouldn't be sitting as one of the highest rated games to ever release.

The game is nowhere near a top 50 all timer for me, but that's not even the point either.

Movies will always be a higher form of art than video games. They just are. It's nobody's fault. It's like books are a higher form of art than comics.

Comparing one of the great movies of our time with a video game is just fucking nuts. It's not even remotely comparable. I don't even know if I can explain it beyond that. The idea that anyone would compare TLOU (or GOW which is one of my all time favorites) is just so far out of the realms of intelligent discourse that I can't figure out a way of explaining it.

It's mental, isn't it? He tried to be all profound and artistic and got called out and laughed at for it because he was talking bollocks. Now he's just doing some world class backtracking and looking like an even bigger eejit.

Yeah and trying to weasel out of it too instead of just saying "I fucked up and said something dumb". Clownery

[Macphisto80]

I’ve never known a game to have so much hate against it and have so much love for it at the same time.

It's such a contradiction. I loved the gameplay. Hated the direction it got taken in.

Yeah. I mean, even then the gameplay itself offered nothing really new, but who cares. I had fun shooting dogs, blowing up savages with pipe bombs and that.

The whole crux of my reasoning why I don't regard this as being the nailed on 10 out of 10, amazing masterpiece it's being flaunted as is because it literally boils down to the fact that the game is marketed as this tour de force of story telling in video games. It isn't.

[El Lobo]

I’ve got to say of all the people on here, I really expected Macphisto to like a new video game/film/tv show.

[Wool]

What's there to back up? Read all the posts. I've picked apart and given ample reason as to why I thought it was shit. There's plenty to sift through to explain it. Fill your boots.

Oh, and I'm also a very fast typer.

Spoiler

Maybe I missed it but the only example I've seen you give is Joel being friendly/too trusting with Abby? And I mean.. that's character development. At that point he'd been living a peaceful life in Jackson for how many years, why is it a stretch to believe that he'd mellowed out and wouldn't immediately be hostile to any strangers? The game even mentions things like him trading for coffee with strangers etc. I don't think it's this big inconsistency with his character unless characters are supposed to just stay the same and not change despite many years passing.

[close]

[naYoRHa2b]

But what is it, in particular that makes the story of TLOU2 so bad? Like instead of saying it's game of thrones seasons 8. Why is it. What happens in the game specifically that makes it such a shit show.

Like does it boil down to Ellie who kills everything in her path suddenly can't kill the person you've been chasing the entire game? Is that the issue?

Spoiler

Or that we have to play as Abby and we think it's somehow contrived how we've been forced to play some of the game with her and now we are trying to be made to like her even though we hated her for what she did?

Because if it is then fair enough but I'll argue this...Ellie was born in the zone, all she's ever known is killing the infected and also her fair share of humans, she almost desensitised to it. She wants revenge on Joel's killer...seems fair enough so far, she goes through the game killing everything left right and centre only to stab a pregnant person. What kind of reaction did this provoke from you? Hypocritical or maybe it hit home that the person she killed could easily be Dina. Maybe it took that for her to say fuck it. Yet she's still haunted by Joel, she can't forgive him, sacrificing herself would of gave her life meaning and he took that away. But killing Abby won't bring him back either.

As far as Abby and playing as her. I thought it was great, like I hated this bitch for killing Joel..no not killing but torturing and you keep seeing his face. Fuck yeah I found it harrowing, this was someone I had a ton of affection for during TLOU man, he lost his daughter, then along comes Ellie, this smart, cheeky 14 year old who he grows to love. Fuck i still wanted to kill Abby at the end because I keep seeing all those moments I shared with Ellie and Joel. Then you have the flashbacks in the museum and such which add to it, or they did for me. So dealing with all that and playing as Abby, yeah I felt conflicted, I was reluctant but I saw her side of the story, it didn't make me like her but I understood her growth. She's a product of Joel murdering her father. The breakdown of the fireflies, her joining the WLF. Though I could never forgive her for killing Joel I could understand why she did it. To me that wasn't contrived and what I liked about it was that the WLF are just another faction with people still trying to function in a normal roundabout kind of way, they still have relationships, friendships etc but they see everyone else as the enemy, they try to rationalise this circle of violence. Like what happens when you give a regular NPC a voice, a side with a story to tell. The people we killed in the last of us would of all had families for the most part but we never thought twice. They were just a bunch of degenerates right? They didn't have feelings. So when they put this on you I was intrigued to see that side. Thought it was cool as fuck seeing the whole stadium and the dogs and stuff like hey this is a pretty sick setup the WLF got going on here.

Why does Abby decide to help Lev and Yara, she says herself. She feels guilt, for all she's done. A little too late for redemption don't you think? Well if it can work for Arthur Morgan it can work for Abby if you ask me.

[close]

[naYoRHa2b]

The game is nowhere near a top 50 all timer for me, but that's not even the point either.

Movies will always be a higher form of art than video games. They just are. It's nobody's fault. It's like books are a higher form of art than comics.

Comparing one of the great movies of our time with a video game is just fucking nuts. It's not even remotely comparable. I don't even know if I can explain it beyond that. The idea that anyone would compare TLOU (or GOW which is one of my all time favorites) is just so far out of the realms of intelligent discourse that I can't figure out a way of explaining it.

Yeah and trying to weasel out of it too instead of just saying "I fucked up and said something dumb". Clownery

I honestly disagree. I like film but I like video games because they are interactive and games resonate more with me than films. Films are a couple of hours, a lot of times you can't even resonate with a character. So when I think of games like Firewatch, Nier Automata, TLOU, Life is strange or characters that I've built an affinity towards over the years like Solid Snake for example, the characters and story arc I find to connect with much more. I know much more about Geralt than I do any character from a film, I've managed to keep him alive through 3 games spanning a decade. I mean the list goes on...a film doesn't feel like an extension of yourself, playing a game does. It's immersive.

[Something Worse]

I honestly disagree. I like film but I like video games because they are interactive and games resonate more with me than films. Films are a couple of hours, a lot of times you can't even resonate with a character. So when I think of games like Firewatch, Nier Automata, TLOU, Life is strange or characters that I've built an affinity towards over the years like Solid Snake for example, the characters and story arc I find to connect with much more. I know much more about Geralt than I do any character from a film, I've managed to keep him alive through 3 games spanning a decade. I mean the list goes on...a film doesn't feel like an extension of yourself, playing a game does. It's immersive.

That's so wild to me.

Metal Gear is a great example of how a AAA game isn't even a B movie. It's gibberish. Complete gibberish.

It's probably my favorite game series overall but compared to even a low-end Michael Bay movie it's a total mess as a story with just the worst dialogue and nonsensical plotting. And TLOU2 is 20ish hours right? It's a game about the consequences of killing someone...but all you do is kill more and more people right?

[Dynasty]

That's so wild to me.

Metal Gear is a great example of how a AAA game isn't even a B movie. It's gibberish. Complete gibberish.

It's probably my favorite game series overall but compared to even a low-end Michael Bay movie it's a total mess as a story with just the worst dialogue and nonsensical plotting. And TLOU2 is 20ish hours right? It's a game about the consequences of killing someone...but all you do is kill more and more people right?

You missed the hidden meaning you are meant to forgive Abbie because she is special oh sorry I mean plot armour.. the 40 plus hours across two games of killing non stop was not the right way to solve things!    The Last of Us 3 will be everyone sitting around holding hands singing songs and speaking of forgiveness.

Personally I loved the tedious love triangles constantly shoved down your throat at one point I thought I was playing an episode of one tree hill...

[Macphisto80]

I’ve got to say of all the people on here, I really expected Macphisto to like a new video game/film/tv show.

I liked it. The game bits you play and have fun with, but not supposed to have fun with...ah, whatever.

[Macphisto80]

But what is it, in particular that makes the story of TLOU2 so bad? Like instead of saying it's game of thrones seasons 8. Why is it. What happens in the game specifically that makes it such a shit show.

Like does it boil down to Ellie who kills everything in her path suddenly can't kill the person you've been chasing the entire game? Is that the issue?

Spoiler

Or that we have to play as Abby and we think it's somehow contrived how we've been forced to play some of the game with her and now we are trying to be made to like her even though we hated her for what she did?

Because if it is then fair enough but I'll argue this...Ellie was born in the zone, all she's ever known is killing the infected and also her fair share of humans, she almost desensitised to it. She wants revenge on Joel's killer...seems fair enough so far, she goes through the game killing everything left right and centre only to stab a pregnant person. What kind of reaction did this provoke from you? Hypocritical or maybe it hit home that the person she killed could easily be Dina. Maybe it took that for her to say fuck it. Yet she's still haunted by Joel, she can't forgive him, sacrificing herself would of gave her life meaning and he took that away. But killing Abby won't bring him back either.

As far as Abby and playing as her. I thought it was great, like I hated this bitch for killing Joel..no not killing but torturing and you keep seeing his face. Fuck yeah I found it harrowing, this was someone I had a ton of affection for during TLOU man, he lost his daughter, then along comes Ellie, this smart, cheeky 14 year old who he grows to love. Fuck i still wanted to kill Abby at the end because I keep seeing all those moments I shared with Ellie and Joel. Then you have the flashbacks in the museum and such which add to it, or they did for me. So dealing with all that and playing as Abby, yeah I felt conflicted, I was reluctant but I saw her side of the story, it didn't make me like her but I understood her growth. She's a product of Joel murdering her father. The breakdown of the fireflies, her joining the WLF. Though I could never forgive her for killing Joel I could understand why she did it. To me that wasn't contrived and what I liked about it was that the WLF are just another faction with people still trying to function in a normal roundabout kind of way, they still have relationships, friendships etc but they see everyone else as the enemy, they try to rationalise this circle of violence. Like what happens when you give a regular NPC a voice, a side with a story to tell. The people we killed in the last of us would of all had families for the most part but we never thought twice. They were just a bunch of degenerates right? They didn't have feelings. So when they put this on you I was intrigued to see that side. Thought it was cool as fuck seeing the whole stadium and the dogs and stuff like hey this is a pretty sick setup the WLF got going on here.

Why does Abby decide to help Lev and Yara, she says herself. She feels guilt, for all she's done. A little too late for redemption don't you think? Well if it can work for Arthur Morgan it can work for Abby if you ask me.

[close]

If you haven't already, just go watch the Angry Joe review, and he more or less gives a point-for-point reasoning on why. I agree with on the majority. There's two parts, the second where the rest give their reasons too. Don't dismiss the reasons why people hate it even if you liked it. There's no one arguing why you can't just enjoy it, but for me - and this goes back to one of the first posts I made in this thread when I was about 3 hours into the game - the early signs of the story going off on a messy tangent was evident from almost the beginning of the game, when you know who did such and such to you know who. It was like when you first watched The Long Night. It sure looked awesome, but something in your brain was telling you something was wrong. As Mr Plinkett would say "you might not have noticed, but your brain did".

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/_-sTlYUeT8o&amp;t=1164s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/_-sTlYUeT8o&amp;t=1164s</a>

[Wool]

https://youtu.be/Bat38vErWr4 < much better person to give any clicks to than AngryJoe. It’s fairly lengthy, but it’s worthwhile if you have the time. I also really like Waypoint’s takes on the game even though they’re pretty negative for the most part.

If anyone’s unfamiliar with AngryJoe he pretty much went full misogynist with this game, I wouldn’t really give him a click.

[Macphisto80]

Misogynist? Ah, come on. Why, because he said a pregnant woman shouldn't be on the front lines? You sure you aren't listening to soundbites from these other so called "official" and "respected" game journalists because he flew against popular opinion and called out their bullshit? There was zero misogynistic about anything he said. If anything, highlighting the points that others in the industry didn't have the balls to for fear of being "cancelled" makes his points all the more valid and exposes just how stupid some of the decision making in this game's story is. It's fucking mad how you can't be critical about this game without being branded a sexist, misogynist or homophobe.

[Wool]

Misogynist? Ah, come on. Why, because he said a pregnant woman shouldn't be on the front lines? You sure you aren't listening to soundbites from these other so called "official" and "respected" game journalists because he flew against popular opinion and called out their bullshit? There was zero misogynistic about anything he said. If anything, highlighting the points that others in the industry didn't have the balls to for fear of being "cancelled" makes his points all the more valid and exposes just how stupid some of the decision making in this game's story is. It's fucking mad how you can't be critical about this game without being branded a sexist, misogynist or homophobe.

https://clips.twitch.tv/ThankfulSoftSalamanderRaccAttack (TLOU2 end game spoilers)

Try and defend that. Tell me it’s not him being an absolute fucking weapon.

[Macphisto80]

https://clips.twitch.tv/ThankfulSoftSalamanderRaccAttack (TLOU2 end game spoilers)

Try and defend that. Tell me it’s not him being an absolute fucking weapon.

Given how this game treats all the predominantly male characters, yeah, nothing doing there.

[Wool]

Given how this game treats all the predominantly male characters, yeah, nothing doing there.

Alright, well there’s no point replying to any of your views on this game then. You were wondering why critics of this game are being branded as X, Y, Z and they’re not. Only the bigots are.

[Macphisto80]

Alright, well there’s no point replying to any of your views on this game then. You were wondering why critics of this game are being branded as X, Y, Z and they’re not. Only the bigots are.

Haha

And there it is. I'm a bigot now. Got a Hitler poster on my wall and everything.

Absolutely absurd.

[Wool]

Haha

And there it is. I'm a bigot now. Got a Hitler poster on my wall and everything.

Absolutely absurd.

You’re the one who said you agree with AngryJoe that the only reason Abby doesn’t kill Ellie is “because she’s a woman”. “The Last of Us: Women”. Nothing at all to do with Abby finding no relief from her act of violence at the start of the game and feeling completely hollow after it, nothing to do with her journey with Lev and Yara, it’s only because Ellie is a woman. So yeah if you agree with that then that’s what you are. And honestly, I didn’t think you were going to agree with it so it surprised me.

“Given how this game treats all the predominantly male characters” as if fucked up shit doesn’t happen to any character regardless of gender. Part 1 was only fun times for Tess, Marlene and Ellie. Riley has a great time in Left Behind. Nora, Mel, Abby, Dinah and Ellie all have a grand trip across the States in Part 2. Nothing bad ever happens to them!

[Macphisto80]

Well, all he's saying there is if you're a male character in this game then you're getting done dirty. Which is true. SPOILERS

Spoiler

they all mostly die or get a character assassination of some sort

[close]

Anyway, I'm making a bigot sandwich here. Fancy one?

[Malaysian Kopite]

She was never told. Either by Abby or any of the other side characters she's mercilessly allowed to slaughter without them even giving a hint as to why what happened happened. The whole premise of "the lie" was just put out like a firework in a puddle of piss in a poorly placed flashback scene and that was that. Bravo, Mr Druckmann! *claps hands*. Masterful storytelling talent, that. The one kernel of of drama that ties the whole first game and the second together, and this is how he handled it through a framing device in flashbacks that are out of place and do nothing but interrupt the flow of the story in the game. It really is Game of Thrones Series 8 all over again.

What? She gets told Nora just before the flashback where we see Ellie in Salt Lake. Were you just hate playing at this point and skipped all the cutscenes? 

[naYoRHa2b]

And TLOU2 is 20ish hours right? It's a game about the consequences of killing someone...but all you do is kill more and more people right?

It's about how the decision Joel made at the end of the first leads to a cycle of violence for both Ellie and Abby. That's literally it. What's the issue with that? Yes it's the consequence of killing someone therefore leads to more people dying, so it's a cycle started by Joel. It's about how other people get caught up in your own issues, your own selfishness etc.

You missed the hidden meaning you are meant to forgive Abbie because she is special oh sorry I mean plot armour..

You aren't meant to forgive Abby. I didn't. If somebody killed your parent would you want revenge? How would that change the course of your destiny? How would it change other people around you? Why can't we be shown another side. Playing as Abby made me realise we go around killing all.these NPC's in games and they rarely have any consequence. They are just placeholders to move on to the next part, another obstacle. Even though I played as Abby and I understood her side of the story I still wanted to kill her. Some people didn't want her to die, I did. So the fact you get different responses means ND succeeded with her story arc. She wasn't some one dimensional character like Micah who everyone wants dead if you've played RDR2.

For the record I preferred TLOU story because the introduction to Joel and Ellie felt stronger, I felt the bond between them grow, you felt like you was in a more epic journey and there was one ultimate goal. But that ultimate goal blind sided a lot of people, even at the end of the first game. It's shortsighted how we carry out so much killing in video games and it rarely comes back on you.

[Something Worse]

It's about how the decision Joel made at the end of the first leads to a cycle of violence for both Ellie and Abby. That's literally it. What's the issue with that? Yes it's the consequence of killing someone therefore leads to more people dying, so it's a cycle started by Joel. It's about how other people get caught up in your own issues, your own selfishness etc.

Well it's a story about how killing one person out of the hundred you kill in the first game leads to consequences while you kill another hundred. Not really the same is it?

[Macphisto80]

What? She gets told Nora just before the flashback where we see Ellie in Salt Lake. Were you just hate playing at this point and skipped all the cutscenes? 

Where? There isn't a single line spoken in the game that Joel directly killed Abby's father. Here's that cut scene/scenes in question you're talking about? And I wasn't 'hate' playing this game. Fucking hell, why does everything to do with this thing have to be either "you find it amazing" or "you hated it" because you're critical of it? Some aspects of it were good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVah2QrYBuw

[Macphisto80]

It's about how the decision Joel made at the end of the first leads to a cycle of violence for both Ellie and Abby. That's literally it. What's the issue with that?

I don't know. Maybe it's because the entire world that TLoU inhabits is a perpetual cycle of violence that it's constantly reminding the player of through it's visuals and through the evidence strewn throughout the environment whenever you're constantly coming across corpses and trinkets of documentation of violent events. That's the whole intrigue about these games: the world building. That's the one stellar thing these games have, and they almost completely abandoned it, or at least didn't add much to it in the second game. There's just something far more interesting about leaving to your imagination, like the sewer shelter complex in the first game, where you came across visual clues that there was once a community of survivors with families, and they built their own rules and security systems, and as you went along you discovered that it all went to shit, and that the infected you were dealing with down there were once these families. There could have been so much more done with it. Instead we were treated with shoehorned love scenes and love triangles and...ugh...

Oh, and whatever happened to this mythical dictator-like cult leader that you were constantly coming across little clues about with murals and notes and such. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. It was building and building, and I think

Spoiler

that one person Abby done in with a claw hammer. (Or was it her? Doesn't matter either way)

[close]

was her? Was that it? That's all we got with that? See what I mean about the writing in this game.

[Wool]

Oh, and whatever happened to this mythical dictator-like cult leader that you were constantly coming across little clues about with murals and notes and such. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. It was building and building, and I think

Spoiler

that one person Abby done in with a claw hammer. (Or was it her? Doesn't matter either way)

[close]

was her? Was that it? That's all we got with that? See what I mean about the writing in this game.

Spoiler

The game literally has a dialogue scene between Lev and Abby where they mention what happened to the leader...

[close]

if you weren’t paying attention that’s hardly the fault of the game or the writing.

To answer your question:

Spoiler

If you actually explore during Abby’s section you find a note and after reading the note she talks about Isaac “turning a mad woman into a martyr” or something along those lines and I think from that it’s safe to assume he killed her or had her killed. In the Abby and Lev scene I mentioned Lev mentions that they (the Seraphites) were relatively peaceful and it was only after the leader’s death that people began to twist her teachings and lead them down a path of violence. So the game tells you what happened to her, it just doesn’t spoonfeed you every bit of information.

[close]

[buttersstotch]

Jesus wept, no-one should take Angry Joe's review serious, he's an absolute attention seeking weapon who spouts shite. Still find it hilarious that grown men are getting so beat up about a video game because it doesn't go in the direction they wanted.

I completed it about 10 days ago. The experience was incredible. Like most people when then the character switch happens I was livid, but instead of being a total crybaby I went along with it and it's a totally fun ride. There were points of the story that needed to be a little bit more fleshed out but I completely understood what they were doing and I get why they did it. I can underrstand why people don't like the twist but some people are such crybabies about it. As for the ending it is totally bleak but it sets it up nice for a Part III if they wish do it.

The problem this game has is the people who saw the spoilers have just tried to ruin the game ever since.

[Schmidt]

I don't know. Maybe it's because the entire world that TLoU inhabits is a perpetual cycle of violence that it's constantly reminding the player of through it's visuals and through the evidence strewn throughout the environment whenever you're constantly coming across corpses and trinkets of documentation of violent events. That's the whole intrigue about these games: the world building. That's the one stellar thing these games have, and they almost completely abandoned it, or at least didn't add much to it in the second game. There's just something far more interesting about leaving to your imagination, like the sewer shelter complex in the first game, where you came across visual clues that there was once a community of survivors with families, and they built their own rules and security systems, and as you went along you discovered that it all went to shit, and that the infected you were dealing with down there were once these families. There could have been so much more done with it. Instead we were treated with shoehorned love scenes and love triangles and...ugh...

Oh, and whatever happened to this mythical dictator-like cult leader that you were constantly coming across little clues about with murals and notes and such. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. It was building and building, and I think

Spoiler

that one person Abby done in with a claw hammer. (Or was it her? Doesn't matter either way)

[close]

was her? Was that it? That's all we got with that? See what I mean about the writing in this game.

Spoiler

She died in the truck that Abby (I think) finds at an abandoned checkpoint, she was supposed to meet with the leader of the WLF, she got betrayed and killed, and after those events the religion became a lot more about violence and power (shock horror) than it was when she was alive.

[close]

For me, there's often been a disconnect in games between the story and the gameplay, purely out of necessity, and so there's a need to accept that disparity in order to enjoy both together. It's like in Final Fantasy games where a character gets shot with machine guns hundreds of times over while chugging potions over and over, then they get shot with a pistol in a cut scene and die.

[Dynasty]

Jesus wept, no-one should take Angry Joe's review serious, he's an absolute attention seeking weapon who spouts shite. Still find it hilarious that grown men are getting so beat up about a video game because it doesn't go in the direction they wanted.

I completed it about 10 days ago. The experience was incredible. Like most people when then the character switch happens I was livid, but instead of being a total crybaby I went along with it and it's a totally fun ride. There were points of the story that needed to be a little bit more fleshed out but I completely understood what they were doing and I get why they did it. I can underrstand why people don't like the twist but some people are such crybabies about it. As for the ending it is totally bleak but it sets it up nice for a Part III if they wish do it.

Really?? The fans of this game are just as bad anyone negatively posting about the game  is attacked upon, you have to like the game apparently because it got 10's everywhere any criticism is not valid 

[kopite321]

Fuck me the is a whole lot gibberish and hyperbole on this thread. Its like arse-holes ... everyone has got one and everyone has their opinion.

Any opinion trying to compare the game to a movie, T.V series or a book is nonsensical as they are different media which interact with participant in a different manner to other these media types.

I have to admit that I have collected game merchandise and consoles since 1980 and I used to run a grey import business selling the latest consoles like the PC Engine, Neo Geo and the likes so I guess I have seen thirty years of game development up to this point.

The story line within LOU2 is going to divide opinion but the is no argument that the technical accomplishment and the character development is up there with the best in any generation of gaming, what they have achieved running on a 8 year console is remarkable. You may not like the characters and you may not like the story line but its still a remarkable achievement.

Its a game its not a movie and its not a TV series, games have improved drastically over the last 30 years but the is still a long way to go before they can match the nuances of movies because they are different media delivering a different experience for the end user and maybe that will not change.

I really enjoyed the journey and like many others on this thread I disagreed with parts of the strands of to this story, it is what it is and my opinion does not matter, I chose to purchase and I chose to play, Naughty Dog have every right to tell the story how they see fit, that is their call as it is for any author, director or producer of other media types.

I can sit through the game again and come up with a list of gaps in the story, so what ? I enjoyed it... its a game nothing more nothing less.