Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles

[Caston]

I think it is important to get in a LB and have Milner as backup for the LB/RB. When was the last time we bought a good lb? I really cannot remember.

James Pearce says our top target for LB is Sessegnon from Fulham. I'd rather get a first choice left back, Sessegnon as the understudy and Milner can then be midfield/forward cover.

[redk84]

*If rumours are true*

And we are targeting £50 mil Van Dijk and Sessegnon, who will no doubt go at an English premium also......I'll be a bit worried. Not because I don't think they are any good, but I reckon that'd be half/most of our "war chest" they been bangin on about. Gone.

Midfield/Attack will need to be sorted on a much tighter budget

No doubt defence is our main problem but I dunno, seems a bit like deja vu

[harryc]

You stick a majority of our competitors central defenders in our defence and there wouldn’t be any significant improvement. You think Cahill would have the pace or Luiz the composure to play in a team who commits too many players to attack and gets caught out too often?

We basically have two defenders in the team, both the full-backs are pushed high up the pitch and so are the midfield. Spurs and Chelsea are the most balanced teams in the league, one of them plays with an additional defender and both play with two sitting midfielders.

So you are saying Jurgen does not know how to set up a defence?

[Funky_Gibbons]

So you are saying Jurgen does not know how to set up a defence?

Rodgers was heavily criticised for not being able to set up a defence yet we're now conceding at a higher rate on average. Klopp has also conceded more than a goal a game on average throughout his career so there's legitimate concern.

We're extremely open at the back from open play and can't defend set-pieces.

[Caston]

Rodgers was heavily criticised for not being able to set up a defence yet we're now conceding at a higher rate on average. Klopp has also conceded more than a goal a game on average throughout his career so there's legitimate concern.

We're extremely open at the back from open play and can't defend set-pieces.

When he won the league with Dortmund they conceded 22 goals and 25 goals in the league. Very good numbers and shows he can set up a defence.

[harryc]

Rodgers was heavily criticised for not being able to set up a defence yet we're now conceding at a higher rate on average. Klopp has also conceded more than a goal a game on average throughout his career so there's legitimate concern.

We're extremely open at the back from open play and can't defend set-pieces.

Maybe the correlation is that it is mostly still the same players.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Maybe the correlation is that it is mostly still the same players.

Is it? We've two new central defenders and a new left back, we even tried a new goalkeeper with no improvement. I'd say the correlation is that the set up hasn't really changed.

It also doesn't explain how Klopp averaged over a goal a game conceded in Germany as well.

[Geezer08]

For a 50 million centre back I'm wanting a ready made WORLD CLASS defender and Van Dijk is good maybe very good but he's not in that elite category. 

For 50mil, I am expecting a prime Maldini. I honestly dont believe you get what you pay for in regards to defenders. The attributes we should be looking for and that we miss is leadership, anticipation, calmness, toughness, pace, acceleration, strengt. And that is to me more qualities you nurse and develop over years and years. The discreptancy between top 10 most expensive players in the last 5 years and the top 10 best defenders is rather big.   

[Giono]

Maybe the correlation is that it is mostly still the same players.

Or player. Lovren is the link.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Or player. Lovren is the link.

Ah, yes. The new Skrtel theory I see. Amazing how once everyone's most hated Slovakian left, we didn't stop leaking goals like everyone said we would.

[Giono]

Ah, yes. The new Skrtel theory I see. Amazing how once everyone's most hated Slovakian left, we didn't stop leaking goals like everyone said we would.

Lovren is rash and makes poor judgements that are hard to recover from when forced to cover a lot of space. He can play well when he has some cover from his fullback and from a DM. Lovren looked ok for the run in last season as he played on the right with Clyne supporting him to his right and Sakho supporting him on his left and Can in front of him.

Skrtel would conceded space and mess up our tactical set-up with his ice hockey defending. Apples and oranges. 

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Lovren is rash and makes poor judgements that are hard to recover from when forced to cover a lot of space. He can play well when he has some cover from his fullback and from a DM. Lovren looked ok for the run in last season as he played on the right with Clyne supporting him to his right and Sakho supporting him on his left and Can in front of him.

Skrtel would conceded space and mess up our tactical set-up with his ice hockey defending. Apples and oranges.

I prefer Lovren on the right as well because I still think a lot of his mistakes come from playing on the wrong side. Against Palace on Sunday for example, there was a moment not long after they equalised where he slides in to clear the ball but instead gives it straight to Townsend (?) on the touchline. This was because he awkwardly slid in with his right rather than getting more purchase on his left foot. You see this a lot from him. Even when Townsend nicks it from him leading to the corner for their second goal, there's an argument it's because his body shape is wrong for that side of the pitch.

But then, until Sunday, we were unbeaten in 13 games starting with Lovren and Matip conceding just under a goal a game I believe. So clearly he can play on the left; it's where he's played most of his career and reportedly prefers playing.

Equally though having two right-footers on that side of the defence is doing absolutely no favours for our overall balance, both defensively and offensively. This needs to be addressed. Quite why we have failed to sign a single left-footer in any position two summers running with the exception of Klavan is beyond me. It makes us very predictable at times. United had the same issue in 13/14 and Van Gaal instantly improved them just by signing a few left-footed players. Are Klopp and Edwards even noticing this?

I still think as a third choice centre back, Lovren is absolutely fine, particularly as he can cover both sides. Overall he's had a decent season and aerially he's our best defender which is important in this league. Unfortunately he is prone to both inury and the odd terrible game, both of which make him ill-suited to being relied upon as first or second choice.

That doesn't mean he's the only problem like people used to say about Skrtel. It's partly systemic, partly personnel. We need better defenders but we also need to defend better as a team.

[mrantarctica]

Is it? We've two new central defenders and a new left back, we even tried a new goalkeeper with no improvement. I'd say the correlation is that the set up hasn't really changed.

It also doesn't explain how Klopp averaged over a goal a game conceded in Germany as well.

It is probably a combination of things. Few things are ever rarely due to one variable or factor.

The quality of the players in our defensive unit have been questionable. Evaluate the players brought in under each manager who's main skill is in defending of some kind : Mignolet, Sakho, Illori, Toure, Vigoroux, Moreno, Lovren, Clyne, Bogdan, Gomez, Manninger, Klavan, Matip, Karius - hardly a list of top class defenders. Some of these players were never good enough to playing in the league for ANY team let alone a team challenging for top 4. There wouldn't be a single player here that you'd explant into a champion team e.g. the title winning Barca, Madrid, Munich, Man City, Chelsea or Man Utd teams of the past. Furthermore, the ones that have been better than bang average or useless have struggled with injury.

Consistency of selection is another thing. We have been hampered by injuries quite a lot. Whether it be Agger, Sakho, Lovren, Matip, Klavan, Toure, Johnson, Enrique, Flano, Kelly, Gomez, Illori etc. We've struggled to pin down a consistent back 3 or 4 that develops a good understanding. There's also been some chopping and changing going on too, as well as some experimentation. For instance, playing different players on different sides, playing midfielders in defence, playing 3 at the back, playing centra halves at full back at various times.

The personnel around our back 4 have generally been variable too. Mignolet has been far from secure in his post ever since arriving. And I don't think we've actually gone with a out and out DM for many seasons now. This is in stark contrast to various title winning sides who generally are very consistent with their selection of GK, 2 CB's and a proper DM.

We can look at our tactics too. Yes we play an attacking aggressive style but then employ players unsuited to those roles, provide inadequate protection to our centre halves who are not well rounded players anyway, and then have an expectation that we won't ship goals. Clyne is not an attacking fullback. Milner is not a fullback at all and yet has probably been our best LB in recent seasons (which says a lot). The actual attacking fullbacks that we have had either haven't cut the mustard defensively (Johnson) or couldn't even get selected (Enrique, then Moreno). We've never had a proper DM to protect our CB's, and our GK has been someone who prefers to stay on his line and stop shots rather than be proactive and interact with the back 2 or 3. The season that we actually did well in, we generally played a RB at LB (Johnson) or played someone who we hadn't even signed permanently (Cissokho) and none of it mattered because we had the most fearsome attacking force probably in Europe.

If you consider all this, I don't think it is entirely surprising that we've struggled to keep clean sheets and limit goals conceded. What can we actually remedy? Injuries I don't think we can do much about to be honest. Tactically I think the manager has to decide what style they want to play. This could be either an ultra-attacking system with advanced fullbacks and no DM, or maybe have more balanced fullbacks with a specialist DM in front of our centre halves. Whichever they should choose, they should then go out and get players who are actually good in those roles, and are better than the rest. If we go for the former, then make sure that we actually get fullbacks that will contribute goals and assists regularly, and put the players up front that will play to that strength.

[JackWard33]

Is it? We've two new central defenders and a new left back, we even tried a new goalkeeper with no improvement. I'd say the correlation is that the set up hasn't really changed.

It also doesn't explain how Klopp averaged over a goal a game conceded in Germany as well.

Goal keeper hasn't actually changed though apart from a short spell
I know people disagree with this but i can't absolve a goal keeper from some of the responsibility for us regularly coceeding 50+ goals a season and regularly being horrific from set pieces and in the air. He's been the constant despite different systems, managers and players. He's not solely responsible or anything like that but if we're looking for sources of our problems and ways to improve the conversation can't not include the goalkeeper

[Carlito Roberto]

You've got to laugh at those up in arms about the possibility of signing Van Dijk for £50m. For a long time now Liverpool have conceded way too many goals, a situation that has destroyed our chances of challenging and indeed winning league titles. Here we have a central defender, arguably the best in the league, who would make a huge difference in helping us sort out our defensive issues and people don't want him. For what the sake of £15m, the amount we got for Jordon Ibe? If he goes to Arsenal for £50m and is the dominant centre back they've been missing and they go on to win the league next season, are those same people going to be saying I'm glad we walked away at £35m?

[Chakan]

I'm confused isn't he exactly the sort of signing people have been bitching and moaning we make?

Our defense is a wet paper bag, he's one of the best defenders in the league. What's the problem again?

[JackWard33]

You've got to laugh at those up in arms about the possibility of signing Van Dijk for £50m. For a long time now Liverpool have conceded way too many goals, a situation that has destroyed our chances of challenging and indeed winning league titles. Here we have a central defender, arguably the best in the league, who would make a huge difference in helping us sort out our defensive issues and people don't want him. For what the sake of £15m, the amount we got for Jordon Ibe? If he goes to Arsenal for £50m and is the dominant centre back they've been missing and they go on to win the league next season, are those same people going to be saying I'm glad we walked away at £35m?

It's so moronic. The irony is he's actually so good its very unlikely we'll get him - not a chance City, Arsenal  and others will be in for him and we'll be in a bidding war. ... but not for some on here apparently

[mrantarctica]

There will always be moaners who moan about the price we pay for defenders (or any player). They compare the price that we perhaps might pay to what has already been paid for other players and then make some subjective assessment of quality. Unfortunately, they aren't comparing apples with apples. Sometimes players are more expensive, sometimes they are cheaper. Sometimes clubs want more or less. The actually figure can't really be compared easily for one transfer to another and I think should largely be ignored. What is more important is whether they are good players, suit the system and will improve us considerably. In the case of VVD, IMHO I think he probably will personnel wise but perhaps not in terms of goals shipped. It would seem that he's a better defender than what we have at present. The price will be dependent on his current contract, Southampton's ability to replace a player of that level, and what else is available in the market at present. We need to do our homework carefully to decide if the price we pay is worth the risk. Ignoring the price though, he's undoubtedly a good defender who has had a good season. He looks to be better than what we have.

Whether he will considerably improve our defending is another question. Personally, I don't think so because I think our defending is dependent on more than just 1 player.

[Coolie High]

You've got to laugh at those up in arms about the possibility of signing Van Dijk for £50m. For a long time now Liverpool have conceded way too many goals, a situation that has destroyed our chances of challenging and indeed winning league titles. Here we have a central defender, arguably the best in the league, who would make a huge difference in helping us sort out our defensive issues and people don't want him. For what the sake of £15m, the amount we got for Jordon Ibe? If he goes to Arsenal for £50m and is the dominant centre back they've been missing and they go on to win the league next season, are those same people going to be saying I'm glad we walked away at £35m?

No the best cb in the league is at Spurs. Arsenal are not going to pay 50 m, only Chelsea which I doubt or City will, they've also bought Otamendi, Mangala and Stones for nearly 150 m with no significant improvement.

[JackWard33]

No the best cb in the league is at Spurs. Arsenal are not going to pay 50 m, only Chelsea which I doubt or City will, they've also bought Otamendi, Mangala and Stones for nearly 150 m with no significant improvement.

Is your contention that this will cause City to either a) stop trying or b) spend less ?

[M7 Heckler]

Whether he will considerably improve our defending is another question. Personally, I don't think so because I think our defending is dependent on more than just 1 player.

Agreed. There seems to be a general opinion on here and football fans in general, that you can buy some quality defenders and they automatically equate to a better defence, in the same way that if you buy quality strikers you automatically get more goals.

I would like to know if there has ever been a case where a club with a shit defence has bought a top class defender in and it has transformed the way they defend.

The reality is that whoever we bring in to play at the back (even if it is a £50m star like van dijk), its going to take a while for them to bed in and begin to influence the players around them. Even if we bring a new LB and CB in to play with Matip and Clyne, it could still be pretty bad to start off with.

You cant just buy a defence you have to build it with time and let it happen organically.

Unfortunately we have decided to start our building process with players who have proved themselves to not be good enough. Worse still we look like we are going to perisit with someone like Lovren in spite of the points he is costing us every season, because the coach has to let him develop as part of the back line.

No the best cb in the league is at Spurs. Arsenal are not going to pay 50 m, only Chelsea which I doubt or City will, they've also bought Otamendi, Mangala and Stones for nearly 150 m with no significant improvement.

City really are exhibit A here. They need to stop buying players and let the ones they have bought spend time together on the pitch a develop a good understanding and consistency between them.

[Day1983]

You've got to laugh at those up in arms about the possibility of signing Van Dijk for £50m. For a long time now Liverpool have conceded way too many goals, a situation that has destroyed our chances of challenging and indeed winning league titles. Here we have a central defender, arguably the best in the league, who would make a huge difference in helping us sort out our defensive issues and people don't want him. For what the sake of £15m, the amount we got for Jordon Ibe? If he goes to Arsenal for £50m and is the dominant centre back they've been missing and they go on to win the league next season, are those same people going to be saying I'm glad we walked away at £35m?

Haha exactly mate! If klopp wants him and he helps to improve our defence so we can win trophies, who cares how much he costs?! If he helps us to win the league is pay £100m for him!
Also Man U paid £30m for Ferdinand about 15 years ago and look what he helped them c*nts win

[Chakan]

Agreed. There seems to be a general opinion on here and football fans in general, that you can buy some quality defenders and they automatically equate to a better defence, in the same way that if you buy quality strikers you automatically get more goals.

I would like to know if there has ever been a case where a club with a shit defence has bought a top class defender in and it has transformed the way they defend.

The reality is that whoever we bring in to play at the back (even if it is a £50m star like van dijk), its going to take a while for them to bed in and begin to influence the players around them. Even if we bring a new LB and CB in to play with Matip and Clyne, it could still be pretty bad to start off with.

You cant just buy a defence you have to build it with time and let it happen organically.

Unfortunately we have decided to start our building process with players who have proved themselves to not be good enough. Worse still we look like we are going to perisit with someone like Lovren in spite of the points he is costing us every season, because the coach has to let him develop as part of the back line.

Sorry but totally disagree with this. Klopp bought Matip last season and i'd say he's probably our best defender right now? Agree or disagree?

So we're scouting Van Dijk who has proved he's a good defender. That's how you start building a good defense, you buy good defenders, shock I know. Whether we got him or not is besides the point. The mere fact that we are scouting top quality defenders show's Klopp isn't just resigned to having Lovren start every game.

[mrantarctica]

Even if we bring a new LB and CB in to play with Matip and Clyne, it could still be pretty bad to start off with.

You cant just buy a defence you have to build it with time and let it happen organically.

Agreed, although I think most people probably share the opinion that with the right acquisitions the method to improving our defence probably looks something like bringing in a LB, CB, GK and a proper DM.

This doesn't necessarily have to be in 1 transfer window as you indicate, and it might even be that we already have some players who evolve into some of those roles. IMHO, Can as a DM is still an evolving idea, and we can look at TAA and Gomez to perhaps become good defenders in their own right. Whether they become established players or more like Flano or Wisdom remains to be seen. It'll depend on opportunity, injuries, hard work on their part, and a bit of luck. It also depends on how patient the club are willing to be with regard to results and development. Changing managers doesn't help younger players either.

[M7 Heckler]

Sorry but totally disagree with this. Klopp bought Matip last season and i'd say he's probably our best defender right now? Agree or disagree?

So we're scouting Van Dijk who has proved he's a good defender. That's how you start building a good defense, you buy good defenders, shock I know. Whether we got him or not is besides the point. The mere fact that we are scouting top quality defenders show's Klopp isn't just resigned to having Lovren start every game.

I would say matip has been our best defender sure. When he first came in I was personally delighted with his performances, as an individual he looked composed and he seemed to know what he was doing. Since that start, I've been a bit dissapointed, mainly with how many games he has missed through these innocuous injuries he seems to keep picking up. If i could choose, I'd want a CB who will play every game. But he's the least of our worries, I think we all now know that lovren and Milner need replacing.

Yes I agree with your point that to build a good defence you need to buy good defenders- certainly the potential for a world-class defence is higher if you have top quality individual defenders; what I'm trying to say is that doesn't guarantee we will start keeping clean sheets. Whoever we bring in will need time to settle into the back line and start exerting their authority. Honestly- I really cant think of when a new player has been brought into a back line and transformed the teams defensive performances.

Can anyone think of one?

[Chakan]

I would say matip has been our best defender sure. When he first came in I was personally delighted with his performances, as an individual he looked composed and he seemed to know what he was doing. Since that start, I've been a bit dissapointed, mainly with how many games he has missed through these innocuous injuries he seems to keep picking up. If i could choose, I'd want a CB who will play every game. But he's the least of our worries, I think we all now know that lovren and Milner need replacing.

Yes I agree with your point that to build a good defence you need to buy good defenders- certainly the potential for a world-class defence is higher if you have top quality individual defenders; what I'm trying to say is that doesn't guarantee we will start keeping clean sheets. Whoever we bring in will need time to settle into the back line and start exerting their authority. Honestly- I really cant think of when a new player has been brought into a back line and transformed the teams defensive performances.

Can anyone think of one?

It's not an instance fix by any means but it's a huge stride forward though. We need players that are competent and have proved they can play in the premier league and handle the pace and physicality of it. Van Dijk ticks all those boxes. Whether we get him is another story.

Milner I assume is going to be replaced with an actual left back , and Clyne will either be replaced or hopefully get his head into an attacking mode next season.

So while not an instant fix it is progress to an actual working defense, because what he have right now is a defense that costs us games. Plain and simple. Klopp knows this and is working to make it happen. He's bought 1 defender who is our best defender right now. Gives me hope that whoever he buys this summer will complement Matip and work on our leaky backline.

[mrantarctica]

Sorry but totally disagree with this. Klopp bought Matip last season and i'd say he's probably our best defender right now? Agree or disagree?

Have to read what his comment was though. Yes Matip might be our best defender but we've gone from conceding 50 goals in 38 games (1.3 goals per game) to 42 in 34 games (1.2 goals per game). Basically it means that for every 10 games we play, we concede 1 less goal this year compared to last. I wouldn't call that a massive improvement in the number of goals conceded just by bringing in Matip. You could probably argue that Matip has only featured in half the games so hasn't had the chance to make an effect but either way the arrival of 1 player alone hasn't significantly transformed how many goals we concede.

This idea of just looking at individuals in isolation is next to a useless concept is the point that is being made. Yes, individuals make up teams and Yes, we should get the best players we can - but if we're looking at a concept that involves more than one player (i.e. defending, or attacking, or corners, or leadership etc.) then we have to look at more than one player if we want to make improvements.

IMHO, if we really want to focus on our defence then there's no reason why we can't identify the best possible CB, LB and DM that money can buy and try to bring them in. I think there's far more mileage in doing that than buying one player.

Where it becomes relevant is if we are limited in how much we can spend. The ideal situation is that we can bring in a VVD as well as a top LB and a top DM. If we can only bring in 2 or 1 out of 3 by spending on a certain player, then we have to examine whether it is better to bring in 3 good players or 1 top one and 1 mediocre one, or just 1 top one. It all depends on the players concerned and what our needs are.

[Chakan]

Have to read what his comment was though. Yes Matip might be our best defender but we've gone from conceding 50 goals in 38 games (1.3 goals per game) to 42 in 34 games (1.2 goals per game). Basically it means that for every 10 games we play, we concede 1 less goal this year compared to last. I wouldn't call that a massive improvement in the number of goals conceded just by bringing in Matip. You could probably argue that Matip has only featured in half the games so hasn't had the chance to make an effect but either way the arrival of 1 player alone hasn't significantly transformed how many goals we concede.

This idea of just looking at individuals in isolation is next to a useless concept is the point that is being made. Yes, individuals make up teams and Yes, we should get the best players we can - but if we're looking at a concept that involves more than one player (i.e. defending, or attacking, or corners, or leadership etc.) then we have to look at more than one player if we want to make improvements.

But if we remove the individual players that aren't good enough (Lovren , Milner, Clyne) then instantly you have a better chance of the defense being better yes?

[mrantarctica]

But if we remove the individual players that aren't good enough (Lovren , Milner, Clyne) then instantly you have a better chance of the defense being better yes?

If we removed Lovren, Milner and Clyne from our current lineup then we'd be playing Klavan, Moreno and TAA!!

Tongue-in-cheek aside, the point you are making is that if we replace what we have with better players then we will improve. That isn't the point that is being argued. Nobody disputes that if you upgrade in every position then you will get a better team.

The point that is being argued is that we can replace some positions but in doing so, we might not be able to replace in others (perhaps due to limited funds or depending on how much we spend on a certain player). In the past, we haven't just been able to go out and buy whoever we wanted. We have had to make compromises, and many times there are reports (true or not) that we didn't end up bringing in our first choice signings. In this setting, it is worth asking will replacing one player really make much difference and if so, how much? What is the best bang for buck? If money is not an issue, then there can be no argument that bringing in the best CB, LB and DM we can find will improve our defending considerably. That is highly unlikely to happen though.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

You've got to laugh at those up in arms about the possibility of signing Van Dijk for £50m. For a long time now Liverpool have conceded way too many goals, a situation that has destroyed our chances of challenging and indeed winning league titles. Here we have a central defender, arguably the best in the league, who would make a huge difference in helping us sort out our defensive issues and people don't want him. For what the sake of £15m, the amount we got for Jordon Ibe? If he goes to Arsenal for £50m and is the dominant centre back they've been missing and they go on to win the league next season, are those same people going to be saying I'm glad we walked away at £35m?

Is he a) quick and b) aggressive enough to dramatically improve us (which a £50m fee for a defender would surely need to)? Those would be my question marks because clearly he's a very good defender

There would be huge pressure on him at that price though and I don't see this magical world where one player comes in and we concede 10-20 fewer goals

[Chakan]

If we removed Lovren, Milner and Clyne from our current lineup then we'd be playing Klavan, Moreno and TAA!!

Tongue-in-cheek aside, the point you are making is that if we replace what we have with better players then we will improve. That isn't the point that is being argued. Nobody disputes that if you upgrade in every position then you will get a better team.

The point that is being argued is that we can replace some positions but in doing so, we might not be able to replace in others (perhaps due to limited funds or depending on how much we spend on a certain player). In the past, we haven't just been able to go out and buy whoever we wanted. We have had to make compromises, and many times there are reports (true or not) that we didn't end up bringing in our first choice signings. In this setting, it is worth asking will replacing one player really make much difference and if so, how much? What is the best bang for buck? If money is not an issue, then there can be no argument that bringing in the best CB, LB and DM we can find will improve our defending considerably. That is highly unlikely to happen though.

Our defense right now is the biggest issue. We've let in 42 goals this season, for anyone challenging for the title/top 4 spot that's ridiculous. We don't have trouble scoring goals so replacing the front line is secondary. We do need another striker but honestly replacing Sturrdige has been an issue for 3 years now. Our defense needs sorting ASAP. While we might not replacing every member of the defense, bringing in a top quality partner for Matip will I think at least fix one part of the defense, and would be a huge push forward to actually getting a working partnership and leaking stupid goals.

[amirani]

Our defense right now is the biggest issue. We've let in 42 goals this season, for anyone challenging for the title/top 4 spot that's ridiculous. We don't have trouble scoring goals so replacing the front line is secondary. We do need another striker but honestly replacing Sturrdige has been an issue for 3 years now. Our defense needs sorting ASAP. While we might not replacing every member of the defense, bringing in a top quality partner for Matip will I think at least fix one part of the defense, and would be a huge push forward to actually getting a working partnership and leaking stupid goals.

I would say bring in 2 top quality CBs especially if we qualify for Europe. Matip has had some injury issues this season. Lovren/Klavan/Lucas all have cost us points on several occasions. It is mind boggling that we decided to go with just 3 senior CBs into this season - Matip, Lovren, Klavan. Last year we had - Sakho, Lovren, Skrtel and Toure. This year just 3 and a makeshift in Lucas. To bring in 2 new CBs who are playing their first season in PL was poor management whichever way you look at it.

[Chakan]

I would say bring in 2 top quality CBs especially if we qualify for Europe. Matip has had some injury issues this season. Lovren/Klavan/Lucas all have cost us points on several occasions. It is mind boggling that we decided to go with just 3 senior CBs into this season - Matip, Lovren, Klavan. Last year we had - Sakho, Lovren, Skrtel and Toure. This year just 3 and a makeshift in Lucas. To bring in 2 new CBs who are playing their first season in PL was poor management whichever way you look at it.

I think if all the shit with Sakho hadn't gone down, then we wouldn't have a problem. But when it did happen we should have replaced Sakho with someone. Lucas isn't a CB and while he's passable it shouldn't be an option unless he's literally the last person left standing.

I'd be happy with 2 CB's and a replacement for Milner. While I don't think that will be done a top quality CB is a good place to start.

[amirani]

I think if all the shit with Sakho hadn't gone down, then we wouldn't have a problem. But when it did happen we should have replaced Sakho with someone. Lucas isn't a CB and while he's passable it shouldn't be an option unless he's literally the last person left standing.

I'd be happy with 2 CB's and a replacement for Milner. While I don't think that will be done a top quality CB is a good place to start.

Yep, hopefully have few top quality options in mind if our primary target doesn't work out which is usually the case.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Our defense right now is the biggest issue. We've let in 42 goals this season, for anyone challenging for the title/top 4 spot that's ridiculous. We don't have trouble scoring goals so replacing the front line is secondary. We do need another striker but honestly replacing Sturrdige has been an issue for 3 years now. Our defense needs sorting ASAP. While we might not replacing every member of the defense, bringing in a top quality partner for Matip will I think at least fix one part of the defense, and would be a huge push forward to actually getting a working partnership and leaking stupid goals.

The attack is linked to the defence though. The reason we score so many goals is because we commit so many players forward, the reason we concede lots of goals is because we commit so many players forward.

[Chakan]

The attack is linked to the defence though. The reason we score so many goals is because we commit so many players forward, the reason we concede lots of goals is because we commit so many players forward.

Yes and no for me, while we do commit people forward , we also have a few defenders who don't do the basics very well. We concede a lot from set pieces and that can't be blamed on committing people forward. It's a known thing that we are a soft touch on set pieces mainly because we constantly lose out on the 2nd ball.

Fix the CB pairing and we'll start getting a working unit.

[amirani]

The attack is linked to the defence though. The reason we score so many goals is because we commit so many players forward, the reason we concede lots of goals is because we commit so many players forward.

We concede plenty from set pieces when we have most of our players back. That's just down to personnel and training.

[mrantarctica]

Our defense right now is the biggest issue. We've let in 42 goals this season, for anyone challenging for the title/top 4 spot that's ridiculous. We don't have trouble scoring goals so replacing the front line is secondary. We do need another striker but honestly replacing Sturrdige has been an issue for 3 years now. Our defense needs sorting ASAP. While we might not replacing every member of the defense, bringing in a top quality partner for Matip will I think at least fix one part of the defense, and would be a huge push forward to actually getting a working partnership and leaking stupid goals.

So we're back to the bringing in one top player will reduce the number of goals we leak. I'm not sure this has been demonstrated anywhere else, and as I pointed out, we don't concede significantly less having bought Matip in and put Milner in at LB (arguably 2 improvements instead of 1). The reason our fortunes are better this season is not because we concede significantly less (i.e. 1 less goal every 10 games) it is because we get more wins, and we score more frequently (4-5 more goals every 10 games)

It is winning games that is important. There hasn't been a single season in the history of the EPL where the title winning team has won less games than anyone else. Goals scored and conceded are less important, but of the two it would seem goals scored is probably more related to winning the league. The team that has scored the most goals has won the league nearly every time in the last decade (perhaps only 2-3 exceptions to this), whilst the team that has conceded the least has only won three times (and 2 of those 3 times, that team scored the most goals). Scoring the most and conceding the least doesn't guarantee success either - with Spurs actually finishing third and a long way behind Leicester (11 points) when this happened, and of recent seasons the top scoring team hasn't usually won the league.

What is important is winning games. Will changing one player turn our losses or draws into victories - I'm not sure they will in this instance. I think it is more likely that a player who scores crazy goals all the time like Suarez might alter that, but with VVD I'm not so sure.

[SerbianScouser]

Fix the CB pairing and we'll start getting a working unit.

For me it's lot like Spurs in Pocchettino's first season, they had Vertonghen but it wasn't enough - ended the season with 53 goals conceded.  Next season they struck the gold by finding Alderweireld to partner him and managed then to get to below one goal conceded per game.

I think Matip wasn't enough in the summer and if we get another CB on his level like VD getting to below one goal per game conceded will finally happen imo.

[Chakan]

So we're back to the bringing in one top player will reduce the number of goals we leak. I'm not sure this has been demonstrated anywhere else, and as I pointed out, we don't concede significantly less having bought Matip in and put Milner in at LB (arguably 2 improvements instead of 1). The reason our fortunes are better this season is not because we concede significantly less (i.e. 1 less goal every 10 games) it is because we get more wins, and we score more frequently (4-5 more goals every 10 games)

It is winning games that is important. There hasn't been a single season in the history of the EPL where the title winning team has won less games than anyone else. Goals scored and conceded are less important, but of the two it would seem goals scored is probably more related to winning the league. The team that has scored the most goals has won the league nearly every time in the last decade (perhaps only 2-3 exceptions to this), whilst the team that has conceded the least has only won three times (and 2 of those 3 times, that team scored the most goals). Scoring the most and conceding the least doesn't guarantee success either - with Spurs actually finishing third and a long way behind Leicester (11 points) when this happened, and of recent seasons the top scoring team hasn't usually won the league.

What is important is winning games. Will changing one player turn our losses or draws into victories - I'm not sure they will in this instance. I think it is more likely that a player who scores crazy goals all the time like Suarez might alter that, but with VVD I'm not so sure.

We'll agree to disagree on this then. We're the top scorers in the premier league at the moment and our achilles heel right now is the number of goals we concede. It was the same with the 13/14 season when we had Suarez and the front line banging in goal after goal and the defense shitting the bed costing us point.

Personally I think bringing in a quality CB to partner Matip and someone to replace Milner will give us a good base to stop conceding so maybe stupid goals.