Topic: Anfield Road Redevelopment

[RedorRed]

Closing an entire stand for a season or more for demolition and a complete rebuild?  Ouch.

Is it conceivable we could demolish and rebuild the upper section during one season whilst keeping the lower stand open?  Perhaps with a temporary roof?  Then the following summer and season maybe demolishing and rebuilding the lower part of the stand?  Or is that just too much of a logistical nightmare?

why look to demolish? Build on to the back of the existing stand and extend the upper tier to the height of the Main stand...... and then mirror the roof and job done with minimal disruption.

[Macred]

why look to demolish? Build on to the back of the existing stand and extend the upper tier to the height of the Main stand...... and then mirror the roof and job done with minimal disruption.

Exaclty, it is a steel frame. If the pitch is not right or what ever, cut bits off and weld some bits on, dont see why the whole lot would have to come down e.g. the new tier over the Kemly why would you have to remove it to the ground, you just cut off the angle section i.e. the it above the existing old Kemlyn and then rejig it to fit with a third tier.

And why would you do the Kemlyn after the ARE. The Kop is not that hard to expand even with the road with a little imagination.

[Peter McGurk]

Exaclty, it is a steel frame. If the pitch is not right or what ever, cut bits off and weld some bits on, dont see why the whole lot would have to come down e.g. the new tier over the Kemly why would you have to remove it to the ground, you just cut off the angle section i.e. the it above the existing old Kemlyn and then rejig it to fit with a third tier.

And why would you do the Kemlyn after the ARE. The Kop is not that hard to expand even with the road with a little imagination.

Ah now, you're just being silly

[The Lord Admiral]

Exaclty, it is a steel frame. If the pitch is not right or what ever, cut bits off and weld some bits on, dont see why the whole lot would have to come down e.g. the new tier over the Kemly why would you have to remove it to the ground, you just cut off the angle section i.e. the it above the existing old Kemlyn and then rejig it to fit with a third tier.

And why would you do the Kemlyn after the ARE. The Kop is not that hard to expand even with the road with a little imagination.

Someone posted some good stuff on why the Kop is hard to do on the other thread. Doesn’t mean it isn’t doable of course.

Think they’ll do the Kemlyn next if ARE is selling out.

They really should have plans in place for the whole ground.

[Macred]

Ah now, you're just being silly

Which bit?

[Macred]

Someone posted some good stuff on why the Kop is hard to do on the other thread. Doesn’t mean it isn’t doable of course.

Think they’ll do the Kemlyn next if ARE is selling out.

They really should have plans in place for the whole ground.

Do you have a link to the thread? Not sure I was looking at the right one.

Why do you think they would do the KK next? What about the houses etc?

[Peter McGurk]

Which bit?

All of it.

Do you have a link to the thread? Not sure I was looking at the right one.

Why do you think they would do the KK next? What about the houses etc?

There's many of them going back over the years.

The thing is that anything is physically doable but dreams, sheiks and sugar daddies aside, the only remotely feasible major addition after the ARE would be standing on the Kop. That has the potential to bring capacity to 70K all told.

As it is, the ARE is already pushing the financial envelope, so if anybody wants to know what the long term plan is, I suspect they're already looking at it.

But you never know in football. Clubs do things that don't necessarily make conventional financial sense.

[Macred]

There's many of them going back over the years.

The thing is that anything is physically doable but dreams, sheiks and sugar daddies aside, the only remotely feasible major addition after the ARE would be standing on the Kop. That has the potential to bring capacity to 70K all told.

As it is, the ARE is already pushing the financial envelope, so if anybody wants to know what the long term plan is, I suspect they're already looking at it.

But you never know in football. Clubs do things that don't necessarily make financial sense.

Ahhh, I get you. No, I dont think the KK will be touched in any serious way in my lifetime. I was just saying it is possible to 'amend' a steel frame without destroying the lot depending on what you are trying to achieve and that the KK would be more difficult to do over an expansion of the Kop; be that just squaring of the Kop at the back or safe standing or something more ambitious.

Almost anything is possible with money as you say but unfortunately that is in finite supply.

I think if we could get to 70k that would be decent, and with standing, that would presumably allow enough flexibility on prices etc to be able to give options for everyone within reason. Not everyone can go and no solution will ever be perfect.

Quite happy to see the ARE done and see how that goes. The outline plan looks impressive in size and if it is going to be bigger then the AR will finally have a stand worthy of the rest of the ground.

I think we will shortly need to expand the trophy room too!!

[The Lord Admiral]

Do you have a link to the thread? Not sure I was looking at the right one.

Why do you think they would do the KK next? What about the houses etc?

I've just had a look and I can't find the stuff I was thinking of. Sure it was in the last couple of weeks. Basically pointed out the Kop you'd have to flatten it and do it from scratch. No corporate. Need to mess with the road. Not that many extra seats unless safe standing comes in. So it'd be last on the list for every reason other than it's the most iconic part of the stadium and it needs doing for that.

Re the KK, it'd surely offer the most bang for the buck. I saw an estimate of market rate for the houses being £5m. So even if you quadruple that, it's 20m. You could do the same corporate as the main, meaning quicker returns. Could probably keep a lot of the current stand open for a lot of the build like the Main. And then an extra 8000 seats.

[CraigDS]

I doubt there is demand for additional corporate that equals the Main.

[Alan_X]

I've just had a look and I can't find the stuff I was thinking of. Sure it was in the last couple of weeks. Basically pointed out the Kop you'd have to flatten it and do it from scratch. No corporate. Need to mess with the road. Not that many extra seats unless safe standing comes in. So it'd be last on the list for every reason other than it's the most iconic part of the stadium and it needs doing for that.

Re the KK, it'd surely offer the most bang for the buck. I saw an estimate of market rate for the houses being £5m. So even if you quadruple that, it's 20m. You could do the same corporate as the main, meaning quicker returns. Could probably keep a lot of the current stand open for a lot of the build like the Main. And then an extra 8000 seats.

There's not an unlimited market for hospitality packages, especially the top end packages in the in the Main Stand. And I'm not sure how you'd keep the current stand open.

[Jonny-B]

I doubt there is demand for additional corporate that equals the Main.

Certainly not the expensive packages but they're already housing some expensive tickets in the Annie Road so we'll see.

[CraigDS]

Certainly not the expensive packages but they're already housing some expensive tickets in the Annie Road so we'll see.

Which are no doubt being taken into account for the Anny Rd expansion.

[Welshred]

I've just had a look and I can't find the stuff I was thinking of. Sure it was in the last couple of weeks. Basically pointed out the Kop you'd have to flatten it and do it from scratch. No corporate. Need to mess with the road. Not that many extra seats unless safe standing comes in. So it'd be last on the list for every reason other than it's the most iconic part of the stadium and it needs doing for that.
 

Peter or Alan will correct me but I think due to new building regs rebuilding the Kop would mean that it would get to the same size as the Main Stand now for around the same amount of seats it currently has, meaning it'd be completing pointless to rebuild, and would lose the current feel it has with it being tight and compact.

[meady1981]

The Kop doesn't need to be bigger, it just needs to be standing (all), scouse (majority), young (majority) and cheap (for all) and then it will be the perfect size. Build the rest of the ground into an oversized corporate street food market for whoppers. Call me insane, but I'd honestly take the Kop being all standing than us winning the league in the next ten years.

[dudleyred]

The Kop doesn't need to be bigger, it just needs to be standing (all), scouse (majority), young (majority) and cheap (for all) and then it will be the perfect size. Build the rest of the ground into an oversized corporate street food market for whoppers. Call me insane, but I'd honestly take the Kop being all standing than us winning the league in the next ten years.

You’re insane

[Peter McGurk]

I've just had a look and I can't find the stuff I was thinking of. Sure it was in the last couple of weeks. Basically pointed out the Kop you'd have to flatten it and do it from scratch. No corporate. Need to mess with the road. Not that many extra seats unless safe standing comes in. So it'd be last on the list for every reason other than it's the most iconic part of the stadium and it needs doing for that.

Re the KK, it'd surely offer the most bang for the buck. I saw an estimate of market rate for the houses being £5m. So even if you quadruple that, it's 20m. You could do the same corporate as the main, meaning quicker returns. Could probably keep a lot of the current stand open for a lot of the build like the Main. And then an extra 8000 seats.

Basically, the Kop expansion is either really, really expensive or just phenomenally expensive.

The former involves either building up from the ground at the back (from where the road is now ie., the road is moved or bridged - which is in itself a security issue) or significantly cantilevered terraced seating (sky hooks??) over the road plus a new roof. WBR is an A road and tricky to shift to say the least and there are new developments ongoing across the road. Thinking a little laterally, the existing kop roof could be raised in one piece on extended columns or masts in the corners and extended backwards. A tricky balancing act but the engineering is around but then again it only saves some of the cost.

The latter involves complete demolition so that the old and new parts comply with current Building Regulations and FIFA guidelines with extra deep terracing at 850mm seat back to seat back thus reducing the extra capacity to well less than 1,000. There are other schemes around that mix and match old and new regulations in one tier but as fas I'm aware no-one has ever submitted such a scheme to Building Control for their approval. Or you could have a two-tier Kop.

All in all the existing angles and step configuration work for safe standing and you could get rid of the commentary box and add some seats in the corners, which would have more of a visual and atmospheric effect than increase revenue. Also, increase lower-priced tickets on the assumption that people would pay less to stand.

From the information I've got, the KD stand is already built at the maximum angle permitted. To go higher and still see the pitch, the angle would exceed that permitted. So the Upper Tier terracing sliced off at least, frame jiggered about with (or just demolish the whole thing) and rebuilt at a lower angle before adding on the new section at the back. If it turned out that this still didn't do the trick, the Lower Tier would have to be designed to go and be re-built as well. From memory this is a concrete frame.

So a complete rebuild of at least the terracing in that case, potentially loss of the boxes to suit the lower terraces and a complete loss of revenue for two years and that's before you start thinking about buying the three rows of terraced houses required.

 

[PaulD]

Peter
Is it possible to make the KOP all standing?
Any thoughts on the costs/logistics?

[TepidT2O]

Peter
Is it possible to make the KOP all standing?
Any thoughts on the costs/logistics?

Yes, play exciting attacking football.


You can make old Trafford all seater by the same logic.

[Red Beret]

Yes, play exciting attacking football.


You can make old Trafford all seater by the same logic.

The way they play at OT you may as well junk the seats and replace them with beds.

[Peter McGurk]

Peter
Is it possible to make the KOP all standing?
Any thoughts on the costs/logistics?

The basic geometry of the kop complies with the existing rules for standing in the UK ie., the angle of the stand and the depth of the step. Obviously it doesn't have the barriers. So you could strip out the seats and put in the barriers and you're ready to go. Fully standing Kop. 'All' you need is a change in the directive from (FIFA and) the Secretary of State as advised by the FA to allow standing in the top two divisions.

Standing in rail seating with a barrier every one or two rows of standing is far safer than the current UK regulations for standing where the barriers are every 4 to 10 rows depending on the angle of the stand and the strength of the barrier.

If you wanted to increase capacity (at approaching 2:1 say), the increased frequency of barriers in rail seating would probably mean that you would not need to put in an extra step in between each existing step. Nevertheless it could be done.

The existing steps on the Kop can accommodate two people, one behind the other according to the Green Book, which is kind of hard to believe (we have forgotten what it was like on the old kop and people have got bigger), so the rule of thumb is that you might increase capacity between about 1.6:1 to 1.8:1 depending on the number of additional stairs and escapes required for the increased numbers. The numbers of escapes are a function of escape time and takes a bit of working out.

There would be a whole slew of escape considerations and space provisions on Walton Breck Road with the increased capacity. That said, there is more space now than there used to be. It would come down to space, management and crowd flow.

Then you have to consider the additional weight of almost twice as many people on the structure. So there may or may not be structural strengthening required, but probably.

Technically speaking you're meant to be able to see the ball in flight 18m high over the pitch at any point. You can't do that even now if you stand at the back of the kop. That may or may not be an issue. It may be considered a compromised view. You can stand at the back and sit at the front. You can't do vice versa for obvious reasons. So the roof may have to be lifted - at the back (behind the main girder). The girder itself may have to be lifted.

So not terribly easy, sure. Technically possible, probably. Certainly not as expensive as a 10,000 seat expansion to build and hopefully not as expensive to buy tickets for.

[The Lord Admiral]

There's not an unlimited market for hospitality packages, especially the top end packages in the in the Main Stand. And I'm not sure how you'd keep the current stand open.

True on the hospitality, although the club will have a good idea by now.

On the stand, probably not all of it I agree. The engineers did a great job with the Main though, no doubt they’d have a good go.

The question was why I thought they’d do the Kemlyn before the Kop. I’d be surprised if they look at it in the next 10 years. Even when we win the European cup this season!

[PaulD]

The basic geometry of the kop complies with the existing rules for standing in the UK ie., the angle of the stand and the depth of the step. Obviously it doesn't have the barriers. So you could strip out the seats and put in the barriers and you're ready to go. Fully standing Kop. 'All' you need is a change in the directive from (FIFA and) the Secretary of State as advised by the FA to allow standing in the top two divisions.

Standing in rail seating with a barrier every one or two rows of standing is far safer than the current UK regulations for standing where the barriers are every 4 to 10 rows depending on the angle of the stand and the strength of the barrier.

If you wanted to increase capacity (at approaching 2:1 say), the increased frequency of barriers in rail seating would probably mean that you would not need to put in an extra step in between each existing step. Nevertheless it could be done.

The existing steps on the Kop can accommodate two people, one behind the other according to the Green Book, which is kind of hard to believe (we have forgotten what it was like on the old kop and people have got bigger), so the rule of thumb is that you might increase capacity between about 1.6:1 to 1.8:1 depending on the number of additional stairs and escapes required for the increased numbers. The numbers of escapes are a function of escape time and takes a bit of working out.

There would be a whole slew of escape considerations and space provisions on Walton Breck Road with the increased capacity. That said, there is more space now than there used to be. It would come down to space, management and crowd flow.

Then you have to consider the additional weight of almost twice as many people on the structure. So there may or may not be structural strengthening required, but probably.

Technically speaking you're meant to be able to see the ball in flight 18m high over the pitch at any point. You can't do that even now if you stand at the back of the kop. That may or may not be an issue. It may be considered a compromised view. You can stand at the back and sit at the front. You can't do vice versa for obvious reasons. So the roof may have to be lifted - at the back (behind the main girder). The girder itself may have to be lifted.

So not terribly easy, sure. Technically possible, probably. Certainly not as expensive as a 10,000 seat expansion to build and hopefully not as expensive to buy tickets for.

Peter
Thanks for taking the time to explain that

It's a fantastic opportunity, requiring a huge leap of faith but wow ... The Red Wall! ....... stunning!

[Macred]

If it turned out that this still didn't do the trick, the Lower Tier would have to be designed to go and be re-built as well. From memory this is a concrete frame.

Found these old pics of the original Kemlyn construction - looks like a steel frame and maybe early pre-cast steps? Don't know if that makes much difference.




What did they actually do on the old main stand, They seemed to put a frame over the top of some of the old stand (but it looked really lightweight) and then at the front they seemed to be spraying concrete. Is that still at the old seat spacing or is it all now following the up to date guides?

[Peter McGurk]

True on the hospitality, although the club will have a good idea by now.

On the stand, probably not all of it I agree. The engineers did a great job with the Main though, no doubt they’d have a good go.

The question was why I thought they’d do the Kemlyn before the Kop. I’d be surprised if they look at it in the next 10 years. Even when we win the European cup this season!

You can't keep the KD stand open because it either needs huge modification or demolishing and starting again. It's not as simple as building on the back. See above. For these reasons, I can't see the KD stand being re-done this side of never unless there's a change in the rules or the information available is wrong. But it's a nice dream.

Obviously both the Upper and Lower Tiers have hospitality seats in them - especially the  Upper and the boxes. Taking the ground as a whole now, there's won't be much demand to expand on that (and it would be a serious loss of revenue during construction.

[Peter McGurk]

Found these old pics of the original Kemlyn construction - looks like a steel frame and maybe early pre-cast steps? Don't know if that makes much difference.


What did they actually do on the old main stand, They seemed to put a frame over the top of some of the old stand (but it looked really lightweight) and then at the front they seemed to be spraying concrete. Is that still at the old seat spacing or is it all now following the up to date guides?

Steel wouldn't make that much difference if you had to lower the back of the lower tier. By the time you've cut off all those raking steels and tried to modify the columns on site, you may as well have replaced them. I imagine they'd be easier to get out is all.

Staging was put on top of the existing steps at the back of the paddock and steps were re-surfaced at the front. This made the overall profile a little steeper (for a better view). I'm told the seats got tighter back to back but I'm not sure about that and it was a separate tier in any event.

[CraigDS]

and it would be a serious loss of revenue during construction.

Purely hypothetical as there are many reasons it's highly unlikely to happen, but could a stand be demolished and rebuilt within 2 extended summer breaks and the season between them or would it take longer than this?

[Peter McGurk]

Purely hypothetical as there are many reasons it's highly unlikely to happen, but could a stand be demolished and rebuilt within 2 extended summer breaks and the season between them or would it take longer than this?

Back in the day... another major contractor was not prepared to look at less than two full years. Site access is a major factor.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Lets just expand the main stand again. Easy.

[xRedmanLFCx]

Yes, play exciting attacking football.


You can make old Trafford all seater by the same logic.

 

[The Lord Admiral]

You can't keep the KD stand open because it either needs huge modification or demolishing and starting again. It's not as simple as building on the back. See above. For these reasons, I can't see the KD stand being re-done this side of never unless there's a change in the rules or the information available is wrong. But it's a nice dream.

Obviously both the Upper and Lower Tiers have hospitality seats in them - especially the  Upper and the boxes. Taking the ground as a whole now, there's won't be much demand to expand on that (and it would be a serious loss of revenue during construction.

Back in the day... another major contractor was not prepared to look at less than two full years. Site access is a major factor.

That's interesting Peter about the two full years. Wouldn't have thought construction / engineering has changed much in that time either. So there we are. I think the issues and challenges are pretty clear for the two remaining stands after ARE.

That's not to say either of them are insurmountable, just expensive.
 

[Peter McGurk]

That's interesting Peter about the two full years. Wouldn't have thought construction / engineering has changed much in that time either. So there we are. I think the issues and challenges are pretty clear for the two remaining stands after ARE.

That's not to say either of them are insurmountable, just expensive.

We should all be concerned as to 'just' how expensive it is as ultimately, it's the fans that would pay.

[Macred]

From the Echo on ARE

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-accounts-anfield-road-latest-14352711

[Danny Boy]

From the Echo on ARE

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-accounts-anfield-road-latest-14352711

Are the accounts available to view publicly?

[CraigDS]

Are the accounts available to view publicly?

Not yet. Will be here in the next week or so no doubt... https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00035668/filing-history

[owens_2k]

From the ECHO

"The ECHO understands that beginning work on Kirkby and the Anfield Road at the same time was always going to be a non-starter in terms of the allocation of people, focus and capital resources from within the club."

Kirkby work won't be complete until 2020. So were looking at possibly 2021 at the very earliest for a new  ARE.

[dudleyred]

From the ECHO

Kirkby work won't be complete until 2020. So were looking at possibly 2021 at the very earliest for a new  ARE.

next line of the article....

There is likely to be some overlap as and when Anfield Road is given the green light but Kirkby has been prioritised for now as it is seen as more vital to the first team squad and success on the pitch. Investment in the playing squad will take priority over either project and capital investment staggered to reflect that.

[BaZ87]

From the ECHO

Kirkby work won't be complete until 2020. So were looking at possibly 2021 at the very earliest for a new  ARE.

This does tie in with what TIA reported a few weeks back and does make sense. If we are going to go significantly above the 58,500 that we have outline approval for, it's likely that we'll need to submit new plans - announced this summer, planning permission granted towards the end of 2018/start of 2019 with building work to commence mid to late 2019, ready to open for the start of the 2021/22 season.

[Kopout]

Didn't we expect £30m more in matchday revenue? why only £12m

[CraigDS]

Didn't we expect £30m more in matchday revenue? why only £12m

24 home matches compared to 31 the year before will be part of it.