Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 898675 times)

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7160 on: May 7, 2017, 07:34:11 pm »
somewhere where the Tories can actually win, i.e. a marginal.

Worth more than McDonnell visiting Liverpool, for example.
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Offline OOS

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7161 on: May 7, 2017, 07:39:08 pm »
Any idea what that's for? Support for local candidates?

Wirral South, which is a Labour Marginal. We won it with 4,599 votes in 2015, 531 votes in 2010.

I'd imagine he'd going over to Wirral West too. Majority of 417.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7162 on: May 7, 2017, 07:39:19 pm »
Worth more than McDonnell visiting Liverpool, for example.
in fairness it's probably best mcdonnell doesn't go to a marginal.

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7163 on: May 7, 2017, 07:39:34 pm »
in fairness it's probably best mcdonnell doesn't go to a marginal.

Ouch ;D
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7164 on: May 7, 2017, 07:49:58 pm »
Wirral South, which is a Labour Marginal. We won it with 4,599 votes in 2015, 531 votes in 2010.

I'd imagine he'd going over to Wirral West too. Majority of 417.

Cheers. Thought it'd be that. Sure he'll be doing a fair few similar trips round the country too.

Just seems unlikely he'll be doing anything but releasing statements off his own back about Labour policy or to Tory announcements. Noticed Luciana Berger's been doing the same on her old mental health brief. Fair few others doing similar things. Hard for it to get any traction without weight of leader's office behind it, but that's an old story.
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Offline OOS

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7165 on: May 7, 2017, 07:59:44 pm »
somewhere where the Tories can actually win, i.e. a marginal. Instead of doing a rally in a solid labour area.

Corbyn is like marmite on the door. He's so toxic. Some love him, others don't like him. And these are the people that have voted Labour all their lives. We can and do have fantastic candidates but they don't stand a chance because he turning away Labour voters. People are asking us to change leader and they are reluctantly voting Labour because they don't like the Tories.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7166 on: May 7, 2017, 08:23:32 pm »
Welcome back to many of the Corbyn supporters who gave up trying to defend the indispensable a fair while back.

Do we take it from you solely sniping at others who have issues with corbyn, and the faux appeals for unity, that you have no compelling supporting arguments in favour of corbyn?

It seems a lot like tacit acknowledgement that the predictions of those fearing Corbyn's incompretence would cost the party electoral oblivion were correct. Would welcome any refutation of this.

Offline zebenzui

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7167 on: May 7, 2017, 08:54:03 pm »
Welcome back to many of the Corbyn supporters who gave up trying to defend the indispensable a fair while back.

Do we take it from you solely sniping at others who have issues with corbyn, and the faux appeals for unity, that you have no compelling supporting arguments in favour of corbyn?

It seems a lot like tacit acknowledgement that the predictions of those fearing Corbyn's incompretence would cost the party electoral oblivion were correct. Would welcome any refutation of this.

As a sometime Corbyn defender, and not-really-Labour-voter who thought it was better to stomach his flaws for the sake of short term gains on the tories, I have to say that he has to go after this election. It's one thing to tolerate a leader who's looking like he'll lose roundly (and that's bad enough), quite another to suffer him to remain after said defeat.

Corbyn will never govern this country. For the love of god please let somebody else try. That's not to say I wouldn't prefer him to May, but I have to wonder how Corbyn supporters like Trada can truly believe that there's a way back from this that doesn't involve Corbyn's removal.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7168 on: May 7, 2017, 09:01:46 pm »
As a sometime Corbyn defender, and not-really-Labour-voter who thought it was better to stomach his flaws for the sake of short term gains on the tories, I have to say that he has to go after this election. It's one thing to tolerate a leader who's looking like he'll lose roundly (and that's bad enough), quite another to suffer him to remain after said defeat.

Corbyn will never govern this country. For the love of god please let somebody else try. That's not to say I wouldn't prefer him to May, but I have to wonder how Corbyn supporters like Trada can truly believe that there's a way back from this that doesn't involve Corbyn's removal.

It would be something of a nonsense to try and claim a mandate to remain based on vote share holding up even if the party lost a lot of seats, Milliband didn't appear to think twice about going in 2015 and he actually increased Labour's share of the vote from the previous GE.

But if that is what the leadership and a majority of the membership want, that is what is going to happen.....

I will say thought that I don't think its inevitable that Corby nwould survive a leadership challenge after a bad election defeat, who knows how the members would respond.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7169 on: May 7, 2017, 09:02:55 pm »
As a sometime Corbyn defender, and not-really-Labour-voter who thought it was better to stomach his flaws for the sake of short term gains on the tories, I have to say that he has to go after this election. It's one thing to tolerate a leader who's looking like he'll lose roundly (and that's bad enough), quite another to suffer him to remain after said defeat.

Corbyn will never govern this country. For the love of god please let somebody else try. That's not to say I wouldn't prefer him to May, but I have to wonder how Corbyn supporters like Trada can truly believe that there's a way back from this that doesn't involve Corbyn's removal.

That's a good insight from a voter based in Scotland, thanks for sharing.

We were promised by corbyn and McDonnell that they would appeal to the traditional Scottish base and win back seats. They have certainly failed to improve on a disastrous 2015, and also failed to achieve the modest targets that they set for themselves. In fact they appear to have made things worse there. They look set to have moved us from the second party in Scotland to the third.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7170 on: May 7, 2017, 09:28:54 pm »
Let's think about why Labour might have lost some of these mayoral elections...

You have to ask yourself if massive fucking incompetence might have been an issue.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7171 on: May 7, 2017, 09:33:22 pm »
Makes you wonder about whether that will affect some in marginal constituencies with them throwing the money at places they will win anyway to boost vote share
« Last Edit: May 7, 2017, 09:35:50 pm by Laughter is the best medicine... »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7172 on: May 7, 2017, 09:45:57 pm »
Really Alan ? What is it that you found insulting / abusive ? I didn't even think it was a Yellow Card let alone a Red Card and a Suarez ban.

 I'm reminded of the time I asked a shop assistant from down south for Ice Cream...  and got a tube of Germolene. 

Ps
Lets leave the O'irish out of it   

You said someone should go and do their 'Breitbart homework'. There's some despicable things been said in here by the Corbyn massive but referencing an alt-right white supremacist website was a shithouse move.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7173 on: May 7, 2017, 09:47:58 pm »
Let's think about why Labour might have lost some of these mayoral elections...

You have to ask yourself if massive fucking incompetence might have been an issue.



Trada? Johnno? Anyone pro-Corbyn want to comment?
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Offline zebenzui

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7174 on: May 7, 2017, 09:56:53 pm »
That's a good insight from a voter based in Scotland, thanks for sharing.

We were promised by corbyn and McDonnell that they would appeal to the traditional Scottish base and win back seats. They have certainly failed to improve on a disastrous 2015, and also failed to achieve the modest targets that they set for themselves. In fact they appear to have made things worse there. They look set to have moved us from the second party in Scotland to the third.

The worst thing is not that they failed, I can imagine being in that position and feeling like Nicola Murray in The Thick Of It ("against these puppy murderers, how could I not win?"). But to have quite clearly failed with no reasonable expectation of, or plan for, recovery and NOT doing the honourable thing and falling on his sword - that would be the worst thing. If (when) Corbyn persists after an election defeat, then he will have lost all goodwill from me.

I was, you could say, a natural target for Corbyn. My vote was ripe for the winning, he just had to be not utterly ineffectual. I do lament that if Corbyn can't even win over someone like me (disclaimer: I live in a safe seat, so my vote counts for nothing anyway), what chance could he possibly have with those who aren't already near enough aligned with his and/or Labour's politics.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7175 on: May 7, 2017, 10:25:35 pm »
Let's think about why Labour might have lost some of these mayoral elections...

You have to ask yourself if massive fucking incompetence might have been an issue.



Read that earlier in the Guardian.

What can you say to that??

Well oiled machine  ;D ;D ;D

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7176 on: May 7, 2017, 10:38:52 pm »
If true, that's embarrassing and completely inept.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7177 on: May 7, 2017, 11:12:02 pm »
I was being generous and not mentioning that. Also if you go down to £55k you're getting into train driver and other high end union pay territory.

I don't earn 80k but I'm a relatively high earner. I'd happily pay an extra 1-2% income tax to pay for the NHS. It's gesture politics. If you believe in fairness it works across the board.

I think the speculation is that it will basically be a 5% increase on anything over that so the effective marginal tax rates would go to.

80-100k 45%
100-120k 65% (higher due to loss of personal allowance in this band)
120-150k 45%
150k+ 50%

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7178 on: May 7, 2017, 11:30:58 pm »
The worst thing is not that they failed, I can imagine being in that position and feeling like Nicola Murray in The Thick Of It ("against these puppy murderers, how could I not win?"). But to have quite clearly failed with no reasonable expectation of, or plan for, recovery and NOT doing the honourable thing and falling on his sword - that would be the worst thing. If (when) Corbyn persists after an election defeat, then he will have lost all goodwill from me.

I was, you could say, a natural target for Corbyn. My vote was ripe for the winning, he just had to be not utterly ineffectual. I do lament that if Corbyn can't even win over someone like me (disclaimer: I live in a safe seat, so my vote counts for nothing anyway), what chance could he possibly have with those who aren't already near enough aligned with his and/or Labour's politics.

Same here.  I wanted Corbyn to give me a reason to come back, but Brexit killed it for me.  But it's a waste of time asking the question because no Corbyn supporter has yet to give me an answer.  It's literally easier for them to shout "Red Tories!" at anyone who voices dislike for Corbyn.

I'll give the Tories this though, they can get behind almost any fecking candidate come election time, no matter how insipid they are.  It was that level of disunity that did for Heath and ultimately Major. 

And this "We supported Blair so now you have to support Corbyn" is utter bollocks too.  Supporting Blair got us into government.  Supporting Corbyn wont.  It's that fecking simple.  It wont matter how united the party is because he's always contradicting and undermining his own front bench and policies.

Just wait.  Wait and see how quickly he moves from a manifesto position.  1983 gave us the longest suicide note in history.  Everybody's holding their breath to see if Jeremy will top that.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7179 on: May 7, 2017, 11:43:07 pm »
I think the speculation is that it will basically be a 5% increase on anything over that so the effective marginal tax rates would go to.

80-100k 45%
100-120k 65% (higher due to loss of personal allowance in this band)
120-150k 45%
150k+ 50%

How much is this going to raise? The total number of taxpayers is 30 million. 25 million are on basic rate, 4.4 million are on higher rate (32k - 150k) and around 330,000 are on the 'additional' rate (150k+).

This is the 2012 Revenue and Customs report on the 50% additional rate put in place by the last Labour Government. The expected yield was £2.4 billion but the reports suggests that it was considerably less (£1 billion at the time of the report) and could be negative.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130129110402/http:/www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/excheq-income-tax-2042.pdf

Maybe someone's done the calculations (insert Diane Abbott meme here).
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7180 on: May 8, 2017, 12:08:15 am »
You said someone should go and do their 'Breitbart homework'. There's some despicable things been said in here by the Corbyn massive but referencing an alt-right white supremacist website was a shithouse move.
It was actually  : "Have you finished your homework on Breibart yet ?" It refers to an earlier "discussion"  about the alt right and briebart and how racist they are. (in another thread) and by homework I mean research.
Basically I've done my research/homework on them and I'm merely asking if he had.

If referencing or discussing them is off limits then fair enough but it wasn't a plug or an advert and I didn't post any links to their site. 

PS
Vote Labour 
 

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7181 on: May 8, 2017, 12:16:58 am »
Like the below examples of their work for 'social justice'

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/_gq3rv8Gjko&amp;showsearch=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/_gq3rv8Gjko&amp;showsearch=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1</a>

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7182 on: May 8, 2017, 12:24:55 am »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/_gq3rv8Gjko&amp;showsearch=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/_gq3rv8Gjko&amp;showsearch=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1</a>

why did it take him 12 years to 'apologise?' Maybe because he's not sorry, I mean had someone not brought it up he wouldn't have apologised? Nor if he wasn't shadow chancellor do you think he'd apologise?

Wasn't sorry in the slightest, typical shithouse move from a grade a shithouse. He's not sorry he's just acknowledging that he got caught red handed for his disgusting views. Anyone who falls for that 'apology' is quite simply an idiot.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7183 on: May 8, 2017, 12:39:48 am »
why did it take him 12 years to 'apologise?' Maybe because he's not sorry, I mean had someone not brought it up he wouldn't have apologised? Nor if he wasn't shadow chancellor do you think he'd apologise?

Wasn't sorry in the slightest, typical shithouse move from a grade a shithouse. He's not sorry he's just acknowledging that he got caught red handed for his disgusting views. Anyone who falls for that 'apology' is quite simply an idiot.

If you research McDonnell (and Corbyn), it becomes abundantly clear that McDonnell is lying there. Not least because this same man only today lied again on national TV about being a Marxist (which he is on camera saying in the past few years).

He is a far more unequivocal liar than Corbyn though, so I can understand if some are taken in. Jeremy is usually quite transparent, with the way he tries to sneak his untruths in with his equivocation tic. He thinks he's smartly avoiding a lie - the equivalent of crossing your fingers as a child - but few people fall for it. We're not as daft as these two think we are

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7184 on: May 8, 2017, 12:55:44 am »
why did it take him 12 years to 'apologise?'

yes why did it.

i'm with owen jones, it was right to apologise and we weren't privy to the peace process discussions but it has brought an end to years of bombs and bullets by and large. 

we didn't get an apology out of maggie for hunger strikes, bloody sunday, birmingham six, calling mandela a terrorist, among other things.

we did get a few out of cameron, not quite the same when it's not his mistakes.

mps holding their hands up saying they made a mistake isn't a bad thing.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7185 on: May 8, 2017, 01:07:06 am »
yes why did it.

i'm with owen jones, it was right to apologise and we weren't privy to the peace process discussions but it has brought an end to years of bombs and bullets by and large. 

we didn't get an apology out of maggie for hunger strikes, bloody sunday, birmingham six, calling mandela a terrorist, among other things.

we did get a few out of cameron, not quite the same when it's not his mistakes.

mps holding their hands up saying they made a mistake isn't a bad thing.

Totally agree with your sentiment, but I think it's misplaced to assume McDonnell a) realises his mistake b) is genuinely apologetic

He wasn't a part of peace process discussions, nor did he get people there. He was not in favour of peace accords or negotiation. He was partisan. In fact, he had to be reigned in my the Irish at times as he was stoking aggression. He had no role in bringing people to the table, he is lying there. He is also taking credit for the actions of people who were on the other side of his views (eg Major, Blair, Mowlam etc.)

If leadership on his side of the argument were following his politics, the Good Friday Agreement wouldn't be in place.
« Last Edit: May 8, 2017, 01:09:38 am by Classycara »

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7186 on: May 8, 2017, 01:07:51 am »
If you research McDonnell (and Corbyn), it becomes abundantly clear that McDonnell is lying there. Not least because this same man only today lied again on national TV about being a Marxist (which he is on camera saying in the past few years).

He is a far more unequivocal liar than Corbyn though, so I can understand if some are taken in. Jeremy is usually quite transparent, with the way he tries to sneak his untruths in with his equivocation tic. He thinks he's smartly avoiding a lie - the equivalent of crossing your fingers as a child - but few people fall for it. We're not as daft as these two think we are

My favorite thing about it is that he's making out that's the only time he said those things and similar, rather than having a 20 year track record.

Corbyn and Benn were both nearly expelled from the party for inviting Gerry Adams over for tea and biccies in the lead up to the 1997 general election. If it had been done to acclaim the IRA for bombing Manchester (just a few months prior) then I'd understand having Corbyn on a banner a bit more.
« Last Edit: May 8, 2017, 01:11:50 am by Zeb »
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Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7187 on: May 8, 2017, 01:15:57 am »
My favorite thing about it is that he's making out that's the only time he said those things and similar, rather than having a 20 year track record.

Corbyn and Benn were both nearly expelled from the party for inviting Gerry Adams over for tea and biccies in the lead up to the 1997 general election. If it had been done to acclaim the IRA for bombing Manchester (just a few months prior) then I'd understand having Corbyn on a banner a bit more.


Haha :D

And exactly as you say, he's only answering/'apologising' about that one quote because that's all that's been put in front of him. He is arrogant enough to think we are incapable of looking into his decades long record of the same nasty bullshit.

It's actually quite fun that Corbyn and McDonnell are the kind of guys who think they're being smart, while everyone else in the room with them knows better [nb probably not the case at many of his rallies]. I quite enjoy misplaced arrogance

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7188 on: May 8, 2017, 01:30:18 am »
He is also taking credit for the actions of people who were on the other side of his views (eg Major, Blair, Mowlam etc.)

That's your perception of what he said.

He had dialogue with parties involved in the peace process.   

mcdonnell publically apologised for comments made years ago.  You can perceive it to be sincere or not.   That would be your perception though.  Members of the audience perceived it to be sincere enough to applaud, that would be there perception.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7189 on: May 8, 2017, 01:53:14 am »
That's your perception of what he said.

He had dialogue with parties involved in the peace process.   

mcdonnell publically apologised for comments made years ago.  You can perceive it to be sincere or not.   That would be your perception though.  Members of the audience perceived it to be sincere enough to applaud, that would be there perception.

yeah, he had dialogue with one of the sides. the side he was on. it wasn't about bringing people together to discuss a peace process, it was just that he associated with people on his side of the argument

the dialogue was against a peace process. fortunately 'their side' lost, and their leaders thought the route to peace was better than the option McDonnell and Corbyn (opposed to the precursor to GFA) preferred.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7190 on: May 8, 2017, 02:13:06 am »
Haha :D

And exactly as you say, he's only answering/'apologising' about that one quote because that's all that's been put in front of him. He is arrogant enough to think we are incapable of looking into his decades long record of the same nasty bullshit.

It's actually quite fun that Corbyn and McDonnell are the kind of guys who think they're being smart, while everyone else in the room with them knows better [nb probably not the case at many of his rallies]. I quite enjoy misplaced arrogance

Thing is, I think it does work to a degree. In that "who ya gonna believe - me or your own lying eyes?" kind of way. How else can we square a load of liberal lefty Europhiles refusing to peer past a hastily constructed image of a "principled man on the right side of history" given out by a Bennite Eurosceptic? And who think that McDonnell was arguing for peace when he was kicking out against the Major/Blair attempts to broker a deal?
« Last Edit: May 8, 2017, 02:14:46 am by Zeb »
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7191 on: May 8, 2017, 02:40:33 am »
yeah, he had dialogue with one of the sides.

There was no dialogue with maggie thatcher.  She did not negotiate with terrorists.  That was her public stance.

There was public dialogue with clinton, corbyn, blair, mowlam and others who intervened including republicans and unionists who were willing to concede, to what extent, who did what is debatable but discussion paved the way towards peace, not the hard line stance.

Did maggie apologise for bloody sunday, the heavy handed approach to northern ireland, the hunger strikes?  any comments made that might be perceived as escalating rather than de-escalating?

Has teresa may made any statements about the ira 10/12/20 years ago?  Which way did she vote on the good friday agreement? What about the iraq war? hillsborough?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/theresa-just-took-credit-hillsborough-12540176

i ensured justice for the hillsborough families.



Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7192 on: May 8, 2017, 02:54:53 am »
There was no dialogue with maggie thatcher.  She did not negotiate with terrorists.  That was her public stance.

There was public dialogue with clinton, corbyn, blair, mowlam and others who intervened including republicans and unionists who were willing to concede, to what extent, who did what is debatable but discussion paved the way towards peace, not the hard line stance.

That's quite a list of names you've included Corbyn alongside. Having studied the peace process (over ten years ago now, mind), I have seen evidence to support all of those names except for Corbyn's. What public dialogue did Corbyn have to promote peace?

Or private is also fine, if you struggle to find evidence of public discussions.

Did maggie apologise for bloody sunday, the heavy handed approach to northern ireland, the hunger strikes?  any comments made that might be perceived as escalating rather than de-escalating?

Has teresa may made any statements about the ira 10/12/20 years ago?  Which way did she vote on the good friday agreement? What about the iraq war? hillsborough?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/theresa-just-took-credit-hillsborough-12540176

i ensured justice for the hillsborough families.

You've lost me here. I thought we were talking about McDonnell's lies.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7193 on: May 8, 2017, 06:46:18 am »
That's quite a list of names you've included Corbyn alongside. Having studied the peace process (over ten years ago now, mind), I have seen evidence to support all of those names except for Corbyn's. What public dialogue did Corbyn have to promote peace?

Or private is also fine, if you struggle to find evidence of public discussions.

From the Anglo-Irish Agreement debate in 1985:

     
Mr. Corbyn

    Does the hon. Gentleman accept that some of us oppose the agreement for reasons other than those that he has given? We believe that the agreement strengthens rather than weakens the border between the six and the 26 counties, and those of us who wish to see a United Ireland oppose the agreement for that reason.


He voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement because he wanted a United Ireland. Even as the peace process was moving forward he voted against it. His apologists will try and spin it but it is entirely consistent with his world view. He loves a struggle against western imperialism. An armed struggle is even better. There are real problems that need addressing in the world like the Palestinian problem, Catholic human rights in Northern Ireland in the 70s, South American dictators and the rest but they aren't simplistic right against wrong issues.

Corbyn's one real strength as an activist is/was that he goes all in. He was committed to the IRA cause because it fits with his politics. I'd have a little more respect for him if he  showed the courage of his convictions and argued the reasons why he supported the IRA (which could be explained in the context of the times) but instead he shit out and pretended he was part of the peace process.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7194 on: May 8, 2017, 06:46:49 am »
mcdonnell publically apologised for comments made years ago.  You can perceive it to be sincere or not.   That would be your perception though.  Members of the audience perceived it to be sincere enough to applaud, that would be there perception.
so what if the audience applauded, for all we know it was filled with momentum members.

Simple fact is the man is a liar and not a very good one, the whole 'marxist' thing yesterday is proof you can't trust a word he says these days with the spotlight on him

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7195 on: May 8, 2017, 07:11:20 am »
From the Anglo-Irish Agreement debate in 1985:

     
Mr. Corbyn

    Does the hon. Gentleman accept that some of us oppose the agreement for reasons other than those that he has given? We believe that the agreement strengthens rather than weakens the border between the six and the 26 counties, and those of us who wish to see a United Ireland oppose the agreement for that reason.


He voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement because he wanted a United Ireland. Even as the peace process was moving forward he voted against it. His apologists will try and spin it but it is entirely consistent with his world view. He loves a struggle against western imperialism. An armed struggle is even better. There are real problems that need addressing in the world like the Palestinian problem, Catholic human rights in Northern Ireland in the 70s, South American dictators and the rest but they aren't simplistic right against wrong issues.

Corbyn's one real strength as an activist is/was that he goes all in. He was committed to the IRA cause because it fits with his politics. I'd have a little more respect for him if he  showed the courage of his convictions and argued the reasons why he supported the IRA (which could be explained in the context of the times) but instead he shit out and pretended he was part of the peace process.
Yeah imagine a Labour leader trying to explain to British voters that he supported the same people who bombed them and oh can you vote for my party so I can be Prime Minister. Let's get real.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7196 on: May 8, 2017, 07:26:45 am »
That's your perception of what he said.

He had dialogue with parties involved in the peace process.   

mcdonnell publically apologised for comments made years ago.  You can perceive it to be sincere or not.   That would be your perception though.  Members of the audience perceived it to be sincere enough to applaud, that would be there perception.
Eh? Corbyn had dialogue with the UUP? News to me.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7197 on: May 8, 2017, 10:40:10 am »
There was no dialogue with maggie thatcher.  She did not negotiate with terrorists.  That was her public stance.

There was public dialogue with clinton, corbyn, blair, mowlam and others who intervened including republicans and unionists who were willing to concede, to what extent, who did what is debatable but discussion paved the way towards peace, not the hard line stance.

Did maggie apologise for bloody sunday, the heavy handed approach to northern ireland, the hunger strikes?  any comments made that might be perceived as escalating rather than de-escalating?

Has teresa may made any statements about the ira 10/12/20 years ago?  Which way did she vote on the good friday agreement? What about the iraq war? hillsborough?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/theresa-just-took-credit-hillsborough-12540176

i ensured justice for the hillsborough families.




The under the table talks with the IRA started with the Major government as soon as Thatcher was gone. It was pretty out on a limb stuff as towards the end Major was being propped up by UUP votes in the commons and it all could have gone horribly wrong.

No sign of where Jezza was during that time though.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7198 on: May 8, 2017, 10:48:46 am »
The under the table talks with the IRA started with the Major government as soon as Thatcher was gone. It was pretty out on a limb stuff as towards the end Major was being propped up by UUP votes in the commons and it all could have gone horribly wrong.

No sign of where Jezza was during that time though.

Jezza was supporting one side - armed nationalists - and hoping for total victory. He was involved in 'solidarity' talks with IRA leaders, not peace talks.

The IRA was brought to the negotiating table not by men like Corbyn and McDonnell but by those they hated - Major, Blair, Hume, Trimble. It was also brought to the table by a successful military intelligence strategy that so penetrated the IRA high command that it could no longer function.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #7199 on: May 8, 2017, 11:56:00 am »
Jezza was supporting one side - armed nationalists - and hoping for total victory. He was involved in 'solidarity' talks with IRA leaders, not peace talks.

The IRA was brought to the negotiating table not by men like Corbyn and McDonnell but by those they hated - Major, Blair, Hume, Trimble. It was also brought to the table by a successful military intelligence strategy that so penetrated the IRA high command that it could no longer function.

The British position was self determination, ie. the status of Northern Ireland should be decided by the people of Northern Ireland. This was the position that was eventually universally agreed to. So I'm not sure what the continued armed struggle towards the goal of a united Ireland, as vocally supported by Corbyn (and in print, as quoted elsewhere), achieved. If the IRA, without support from the likes of Corbyn, had decided to throw in the towel earlier, would the political position of self determination have been any different? We've seen evidence that Corbyn supported the armed struggle and the goal of a united Ireland. Beyond claims and rhetoric, is there any evidence that Corbyn supported anything else, or contributed towards anything else for that matter?
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