Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 898485 times)

Online TheShanklyGates

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5760 on: April 18, 2017, 08:22:16 pm »
He asked that it be increased in line with the Job seekers allowance - as it indeed should at least be. If you're caring for a relative permanently you can't be going looking for a job can you - even if you'd love to do that.

Interested in why you appear not at all angry with the Tories and they are offering you and others like you Jack Shit.

It goes without saying that everyone on here is angry with the Tories.
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5761 on: April 18, 2017, 08:23:03 pm »
Still - six weeks to turn it round!...

I honestly think it could get worse once Steve Hilton really gets going on Corbyn and his team.

Sick to death of reading about nothing positive from ICM's snap poll today. What does it need to take before our people see the enemy lives in 10 Downing Street?
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5762 on: April 18, 2017, 08:24:44 pm »
Sick to death of reading about nothing positive from ICM's snap poll today. What does it need to take before our people see the enemy lives in 10 Downing Street?
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5763 on: April 18, 2017, 08:26:08 pm »
He asked that it be increased in line with the Job seekers allowance - as it indeed should at least be. If you're caring for a relative permanently you can't be going looking for a job can you - even if you'd love to do that.

Interested in why you appear not at all angry with the Tories and they are offering you and others like you Jack Shit.
Cos he'd rather focus on slagging off Corbyn rather than fight the Tories which is the reason why the allowance is shite. Bizarre.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5764 on: April 18, 2017, 08:26:44 pm »
No nothing do with leadership, brits are a selfish lot in general and just dont want a true lefty like JC.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5765 on: April 18, 2017, 08:28:48 pm »
Cos he'd rather focus on slagging off Corbyn rather than fight the Tories which is the reason why the allowance is shite. Bizarre.

How are people still not getting this? The Tories are in power, they can do what the fuck they like. The only way to get the Tories out of power is for Labour to be a viable alternative. They aren't, so the Tories are going to continue to fuck over the poor, the sick, the young, the disabled etc. People are angry at Labour because they're so fucking inept that we're looking at a massively increased Tory majority when they're 7 years into government, something that's unheard of in British history.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5766 on: April 18, 2017, 08:28:50 pm »
Hilton and Crosby. We haven't got a fucking chance, here.

Oops - I might have misread the news (at work) and thought it was Hilton who was on board. It's Crosby isn't it?
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5767 on: April 18, 2017, 08:29:01 pm »
No nothing do with leadership, brits are a selfish lot in general and just dont want a true lefty like JC.
Nope, leadership mostly..
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5768 on: April 18, 2017, 08:29:13 pm »
Interested in why you appear not at all angry with the Tories and they are offering you and others like you Jack Shit.
Interested why you're back in here with the two faced twats

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5769 on: April 18, 2017, 08:32:08 pm »
Sick to death of reading about nothing positive from ICM's snap poll today. What does it need to take before our people see the enemy lives in 10 Downing Street?

I've been saying that for years. It's the Corbyn supporters who are more interested in political purity than fighting the real enemy (The Tories). That's not my take on it - it's what they have told me over and over again on this forum.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5770 on: April 18, 2017, 08:34:00 pm »
No nothing do with leadership, brits are a selfish lot in general and just dont want a true lefty like JC.
lol he can be arsed with early meetings and does 4 day weeks yet you think he's capable of doing the top job.

On the plus side he gets to do loads of rallies, and he can accrue 3 weeks off in lieu time!

I've been saying that for years. It's the Corbyn supporters who are more interested in political purity than fighting the real enemy (The Tories). That's not my take on it - it's what they have told me over and over again on this forum.

Aye, for people who need a labour government those are the actual enemy getting in the way of achieving it, not the Tories.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5771 on: April 18, 2017, 08:38:18 pm »
Just going to quote this post I wrote back in January. Read it or don't, it's not like it will make a great deal of difference, but hopefully it articulates my frustration more eloquently than a few lines here or there. The thrust of my argument is basically that yes, Corbyn has been dealt a shit hand but the only way things can change is for Labour to get smarter and work the system to their advantage. Crying about internal party politics and the media whilst putting out jumbled, incoherent policy positions will get them nowhere and just further entrench Tory hegemony.

A little bit of background before I get going. I'm 23 and never really had much interest or knowledge of politics until I went to university at 18. I was too young to vote in the 2010 election but voted Labour in local and European elections and again at the 2015 general election after 5 years of seeing what the Tories were doing to the country. I like to think of myself as a fairly rational voter - I voted for Labour because I thought they were the best option for the country, not because of some underlying ideology or because my family had always voted Labour or anything like that. That said, hopefully I can come at this debate as a new voice who isn't entrenched in either camp.

For what it's worth, I was actually quite excited when Corbyn was voted party leader after Labour lost the election. I'm not a Labour member so didn't have a vote but I liked many of things I was hearing from him about tackling wealth inequality and reversing the hugely damaging Tory cuts and ensuring we had properly funding education and health services. He didn't particularly inspire me as a person but I liked his message and welcomed the idea of a shift away from personality politics and a greater emphasis on policy.

Now, a year on and with Labour polling terribly and the country jumping head first into the greatest act of self sabotage possibly ever, it's pretty clear that for whatever reason Corbyn's message has not made the desired impact and that his leadership of the party has failed to invigorate the electorate as I and many others had hoped might happen in the Summer of 2015.

I think there are a number of reasons why this has happened - again I feel I should reiterate that I am not a member of Labour or Momentum or any other political organisation or movement and have no dog in the age old conflicts within the party between left and right, Corbynites and Blairites, whatever you want to call it.

Firstly and most importantly among the reasons Labour is struggling is Corbyn himself. I won't deny that members of the Parliamentary Labour Party have undermined attempts at cohesion but conflict within the Labour party is as old as the party itself. Politics is about compromise - there will always be disagreements even among like minded people. I like a lot of Corbyn's ideas such as public ownership of the railways, health service and utilities, paying people a living wage and clamping down on tax avoidance. I dislike a number of others such as his positions on Ireland and unilateral nuclear disarmament. Ultimately though it is the job of the leader to unify the party around the common goal of forming a government and Corbyn seems to lack both the force of character to get his message across and the ability to compromise on some of his principles for the good of the country. It is a hugely important skill to be able to effectively communicate your policies both within the Labour party and with the electorate as a whole and Corbyn and his team have on the whole failed to persuasively argue their case.

This brings me onto the second reason which is the good old British press. For once I think this is something that we can all agree on when I say that the British press is for the most part a bubbling cesspit of hate with the likes of The Daily Mail, the Express and of course the Scum causing immeasurable damage to this country. Unfortunately such rags are lapped up by the masses and as such play a direct role in shaping many peoples' perceptions and influencing the national 'conversation' as a whole. You talk to people and not a lot will admit to being directly influenced by something they read in the paper, but the you only have to look at how the constant drip feeding of hate against immigrants over the last 10 years has led to people who've never met a foreigner in their lives to vote to sabotage the nation just to 'get them out' to see the effect that it can have. Now, it is perfectly valid to say the press have given Corbyn a rough ride much as they did with Ed Miliband during his time as party leader. That is the press that we have in this country and it isn't going to change any time soon. It is the job of any Labour leader and his team to develop strategies to cut through the media bullshit and communicate to the electorate a positive message for the future. To do this, like it or not, you have to play the media game - history has shown unfortunately that you don't win elections in this country if the bulk of the press are against you. What you absolutely cannot do is dismiss any negative reporting as part of some massive conspiracy and as such refuse to engage with them which unfortunately seems to be what Corbyn has been doing. It is a matter of competence - you are already at a disadvantage as Labour leader so you cannot give the press any ammunition to use against you. The Labour party at a very minimum needs a leader who is capable of largely avoiding gaffes and I simply don't see any way that Corbyn can win an election when his own incompetence has become a bigger story than anything he stands for.

The third reason links back into the other two and that is the biggest issue facing this country for decades - Brexit. As I've already alluded to I think Brexit will be hugely damaging and the country needs a strong opposition voice to hammer the Tories at every step as they lurch from one ham-fisted idea to the next. As it is I still have absolutely no idea what Labour's position on Brexit is - it has just been a mess of mixed messages from across the party since the referendum and most of us are still none the wiser. They are being squeezed from both sides with the Lib Dems representing my preference for a second referendum on any exit deal and UKIP representing the far right's wish for a clean, swift break and to hell with the consequences. They have done the absolute worst thing possible and that is make themselves pretty much irrelevant to the conversation. I don't want to get into the whole 'did Corbyn really back remain' debate because both sides are entrenched and it will go nowhere but it is surely the role of the party leader to, well, show leadership on this issue and hold the government to account and he simply isn't doing it at the moment.

The country is already a mess after years of Tory austerity and the divisive and unnecessary EU referendum. I'm not interested in an ideologically pure Labour party - what I want is a Labour party that will represent the interests of ordinary people and be capable of winning a general election so they might mitigate the damage another 5 years of Tory rule would do. The Labour party in it's current form isn't capable of doing that. Part of that is the age old problem of dealing with a hostile media - part of that is down to Corbyn. I was perfectly happy to give him a chance - I agree with a lot although not all of his politics, but unfortunately I've seen very little to convince me that he is capable of leading the party effectively.

I'm only young and have a much more active interest in politics that many people my age but it is not difficult to see why so many are completely disillusioned. A final word about our broken electoral system (much like the media, it's fucked but it's the system we have and there's little chance of it changing in the near future). I would never consider voting for the Tories and would have reservations about voting for Labour in their current state but due to first past the post voting any other vote is effectively wasted where I live. I'll probably vote Labour whatever in 2020 simply because otherwise I'd be chucking away my vote - unfortunately the consequence of this is vast swathes of voters who will vote the same way whatever happens are therefore taken for granted and can end up being ignored both by the party they vote for and the party that wins (if these are different). I think Labour in particular have taken too many people's votes for granted for too long and that this, as well as Corbyn and co., is playing a role in their current unpopularity.

Apologies for the rambling text wall - I don't know what the answers are, I'm just hoping to convey the views of someone who is naturally sympathetic to Corbyn and Labour but can't currently see a way for them to break the current carte blanche enjoyed by the Tories (and endured by the rest of us.)
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Offline Millie

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5772 on: April 18, 2017, 08:43:40 pm »
He asked that it be increased in line with the Job seekers allowance - as it indeed should at least be. If you're caring for a relative permanently you can't be going looking for a job can you - even if you'd love to do that.

Interested in why you appear not at all angry with the Tories and they are offering you and others like you Jack Shit.

Oh please - of am fucking fuming with the Tories.  I know they are offering "jack shit"  - but that goes with the territory doesn't it?   

 Just Ł10 per week is nowhere near enough, expected a lot more from Corbyn to be honest.  Carers' Allowance should not be compared to Jobseekers.  We save the taxpayer a fortune - it's emotional blackmail - they know we would still do it for free.

I spend the total of my allowance on petrol and tunnel tolls.

Oh and I will be voting Labour - and doing what I can - sorry I can't devote all my time though - my Mum needs looking after.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 08:49:34 pm by In Fowler We Trust »
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5773 on: April 18, 2017, 08:46:16 pm »
Cos he'd rather focus on slagging off Corbyn rather than fight the Tories which is the reason why the allowance is shite. Bizarre.

It's she by the way. 

I have been fighting the tories since 1979 -  how about you?
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5774 on: April 18, 2017, 08:48:08 pm »
It's she by the way. 

I have been fighting the tories since 1979 -  how about you?
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5775 on: April 18, 2017, 08:49:01 pm »
I wonder if Mays slipped up badly by refusing to take part in any debates. no reason why the other partys cant, it's an opportunity to tear the Torys apart with no Tory leaders voice to defend them.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5776 on: April 18, 2017, 08:57:01 pm »
I wonder if Mays slipped up badly by refusing to take part in any debates. no reason why the other partys cant, it's an opportunity to tear the Torys apart with no Tory leaders voice to defend them.
is there anything to really debate? to be honest may, Corbyn and the bootle meff haven't really got anything to gain, only farron could gain some ground on these - may has an near unassailable lead and Corbyn and the meff would be unmitigated disasters when grilled by someone who isn't a fanboy of theirs

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5777 on: April 18, 2017, 09:33:25 pm »
Oh please - of am fucking fuming with the Tories.  I know they are offering "jack shit"  - but that goes with the territory doesn't it?   

 Just Ł10 per week is nowhere near enough, expected a lot more from Corbyn to be honest.  Carers' Allowance should not be compared to Jobseekers.  We save the taxpayer a fortune - it's emotional blackmail - they know we would still do it for free.

I spend the total of my allowance on petrol and tunnel tolls.

Oh and I will be voting Labour - and doing what I can - sorry I can't devote all my time though - my Mum needs looking after.

I know it's insufficient but %-wise it's 17% up on the now. And naturally that's 17% more than this benevolent government are even thinking about never mind proposing. I hope things get better for families like yours where the system has failed them but sad to say, if this lot get back in for another 5 long and painful years I can't see it.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5778 on: April 18, 2017, 09:47:11 pm »
...if this lot get back in for another 5 long and painful years I can't see it.

We all agree on that Johnno. Do you honestly believe Corbyn as leader is capable of doing anything to stop it?

When the Tories call an election because they think there's a chance that Corbyn might be replaced surely you have to take that as evidence of something.

I have consistently been against Corbyn as leader for one reason and one reason only. Because everything about him is an electoral liability. I've made my case clearly and coherently and not one of Corbyn's supporters has provided any credible evidence that he's capable of winning a general election.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5779 on: April 18, 2017, 09:53:18 pm »
Labour MP John Woodcock has said that he "will not countenance ever voting to make Jeremy Corbyn Britain's prime minister" in a video message to constituents.

Woodcock, the centrist MP for Barrow and Furness in Cumbria, is defending a tiny 795 vote majority over the Conservatives from the 2015 election.

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2017/04/18/labour-mp-i-will-not-countenance-ever-voting-to-make-corbyn

Extraordinary how a major party can be so dysfunctional weeks from an election.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5780 on: April 18, 2017, 09:54:47 pm »
Labour MP John Woodcock has said that he "will not countenance ever voting to make Jeremy Corbyn Britain's prime minister" in a video message to constituents.

Woodcock, the centrist MP for Barrow and Furness in Cumbria, is defending a tiny 795 vote majority over the Conservatives from the 2015 election.

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2017/04/18/labour-mp-i-will-not-countenance-ever-voting-to-make-corbyn

Extraordinary how a major party can be so dysfunctional weeks from an election.
He must see Corbyn as a real reason to suspect he might lose his seat.

Labour lost a council seat there to the Tories only last week.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5781 on: April 18, 2017, 10:08:00 pm »
is there anything to really debate? to be honest may, Corbyn and the bootle meff haven't really got anything to gain, only farron could gain some ground on these - may has an near unassailable lead and Corbyn and the meff would be unmitigated disasters when grilled by someone who isn't a fanboy of theirs
I know what you mean, May and Corbyn would also rather not face the public critics.
Theres always votes to be won though, there will still be many who are undecided.
A Tory MP today said, Brexit will be done and dusted in 2 yrs so it wouldnt have been a issue in 2020, absolute rubbish and annoying the lies still continue.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5782 on: April 18, 2017, 10:19:10 pm »
I know it's insufficient but %-wise it's 17% up on the now. And naturally that's 17% more than this benevolent government are even thinking about never mind proposing. I hope things get better for families like yours where the system has failed them but sad to say, if this lot get back in for another 5 long and painful years I can't see it.

And the Blair government did more to help the elderly than any other government in my lifetime, arguably more than anyone else in modern British history, yet their achievements get dismissed by Corbyn fans as Tory-lite. Anyone who refuses to defend the achievements of that government has no desire to actually do anything practical for those that need it.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5783 on: April 19, 2017, 07:46:57 am »
And the Blair government did more to help the elderly than any other government in my lifetime, arguably more than anyone else in modern British history, yet their achievements get dismissed by Corbyn fans as Tory-lite. Anyone who refuses to defend the achievements of that government has no desire to actually do anything practical for those that need it.

No that's not at all the case.  Blair's hitherto creditable legacy was blown to smithereens by him and GW marching us into Iraq on that now famous but regrettably false premise of WMD - and there's no papering over that massive crack whichever economic plusses are thrown into the pot.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5784 on: April 19, 2017, 08:02:46 am »
No that's not at all the case.  Blair's hitherto creditable legacy was blown to smithereens by him and GW marching us into Iraq on that now famous but regrettably false premise of WMD - and there's no papering over that massive crack whichever economic plusses are thrown into the pot.
Dismissing the achievements of the Blair years only helps the Tories.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5785 on: April 19, 2017, 08:05:31 am »
No that's not at all the case.  Blair's hitherto creditable legacy was blown to smithereens by him and GW marching us into Iraq on that now famous but regrettably false premise of WMD - and there's no papering over that massive crack whichever economic plusses are thrown into the pot.

Just to be clear - you're saying that Iraq (which would almost certainly have happened anyway) is more important than people suffering under a Tory Government?
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5786 on: April 19, 2017, 08:09:45 am »
No that's not at all the case.  Blair's hitherto creditable legacy was blown to smithereens by him and GW marching us into Iraq on that now famous but regrettably false premise of WMD - and there's no papering over that massive crack whichever economic plusses are thrown into the pot.

Labour's job is to show that they are a credible party of government. The party's previous record in government is a key part of that. The Iraq scenario can be covered off by pledging no repeat.

Without using Labour's track record, are you campaigning on Abbot, McDonnell and Corbyn's experience of government instead? Blair's domestic record is only toxic to a section of party members, not to the wider electorate.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5787 on: April 19, 2017, 08:22:14 am »
McDonnell thinks the poll was called because of the success of the recent policy launches.

It is a huge dilemma for Labour, by presenting Corbyn as having a credible chance of winning, the immediate reaction is that he is lying. Once you decide a politician is lying, the game is up, they will not persuade you. How can Labour pitch a message, retain credibility and not sound completely defeatist?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5788 on: April 19, 2017, 08:37:00 am »
What are the current numbers of seats that Labour are predicted to lose??

80 - 100 seems the be the most popular from what I've read.

They're predicted to lose the same amount of votes to the Lib Dems, as well as the Tories.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 08:38:58 am by Red-Soldier »

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5789 on: April 19, 2017, 08:52:47 am »
Something around 80 to 100 lost would reflect current national polling. 140 to 150 is meant to be what Labour at around 20% will hold onto. Fabians did an analysis of it start of the year: https://www.fabians.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Stuck-Fabian-Society-analysis-paper.pdf
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5790 on: April 19, 2017, 09:21:14 am »
What are the current numbers of seats that Labour are predicted to lose??

80 - 100 seems the be the most popular from what I've read.

They're predicted to lose the same amount of votes to the Lib Dems, as well as the Tories.

I reckon they will end up on around 170-180 seats. I dont think they will lose 80 - 100.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5791 on: April 19, 2017, 09:53:30 am »
I reckon they will end up on around 170-180 seats. I dont think they will lose 80 - 100.

I guess the big question is, who will gain the most from their losses?


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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5792 on: April 19, 2017, 10:59:23 am »
No that's not at all the case.  Blair's hitherto creditable legacy was blown to smithereens by him and GW marching us into Iraq on that now famous but regrettably false premise of WMD - and there's no papering over that massive crack whichever economic plusses are thrown into the pot.
Looks like you've actually confirmed that's exactly the case in your post. Iraq is your personal opinion. it has no connection to his achievements improving the lives of the sick and the poor, it has no connection to his policys which improved our standard of living.
If people want to have a go at him over Iraq then fine but they cant keep saying his government were just Torys then justify the criticism quoting Iraq.
Not directed at you but Tom Watson gave a magnificent speech defending Labours record during the party conference only for one person to shout Chilcot, the same person will probably be telling everyone they should be ashamed of themselves for not caring about the sick and the poor, to be honest it's sickening.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5793 on: April 19, 2017, 11:16:11 am »
I guess the big question is, who will gain the most from their losses?



The Cons, I suspect.

I think the Lib Dems will earn up to 20 new seats, but I'd expect more of those to be gained from the Tories than Labour.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5794 on: April 19, 2017, 11:18:02 am »
Looks like you've actually confirmed that's exactly the case in your post. Iraq is your personal opinion. it has no connection to his achievements improving the lives of the sick and the poor, it has no connection to his policys which improved our standard of living.
If people want to have a go at him over Iraq then fine but they cant keep saying his government were just Torys then justify the criticism quoting Iraq.
Not directed at you but Tom Watson gave a magnificent speech defending Labours record during the party conference only for one person to shout Chilcot, the same person will probably be telling everyone they should be ashamed of themselves for not caring about the sick and the poor, to be honest it's sickening.

And to pursue that same logic, we should all be allowed to base our electoral opinions on issues that we care about. Europe encapsulates much of what I care about, even before the referendum, and even more so afterwards as the consequences became clearer. I'm internationalist, looking abroad as much as at home. I want a strong economy that is the basis of strong social foundations. I want no part of bigotry. I want regulations that take care of people, employees, products and the environment. All of that was encapsulated by our membership of the EU. And Corbyn sides with the Tories on this. So I can only conclude that on the economy, on internationalism, on liberalism, on rights, and on better social foundations, he sides with the Tories, and has little in common with me. And he has shown this in action, as recently as this year.

Since no one has any interest in electing a non-Tory government anyway, we might as well base our decisions on the issue(s) that matter to us. Whatever one might say about the Lib Dems, at present Labour are worse.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5795 on: April 19, 2017, 11:19:17 am »
Labour MP John Woodcock has said that he "will not countenance ever voting to make Jeremy Corbyn Britain's prime minister" in a video message to constituents.

Woodcock, the centrist MP for Barrow and Furness in Cumbria, is defending a tiny 795 vote majority over the Conservatives from the 2015 election.

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2017/04/18/labour-mp-i-will-not-countenance-ever-voting-to-make-corbyn

Extraordinary how a major party can be so dysfunctional weeks from an election.

Corbyn's supporters will latch on to this like they did the Tony Blair speech just before the Copeland loss, which will increase his chances of winning a post-election leadership challenge. I can understand why he's said what he has but I do think those who want Corbyn out have to think a few steps ahead. No-one knows how Corbyn and his supporters will react to a battering. If they go on the defensive, it's best to try not to give them ammunition like this.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5796 on: April 19, 2017, 11:23:22 am »
Pick a scenario. I'd go for Lib Dem surge. Regardless, it doesn't make much difference to Labour.



(Fabian analysis linked a couple of posts back).
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5797 on: April 19, 2017, 11:27:13 am »
Pick a scenario. I'd go for Lib Dem surge. Regardless, it doesn't make much difference to Labour.

(Fabian analysis linked a couple of posts back).

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/19/greens-urge-labour-and-lib-dems-to-form-electoral-pact-to-defeat-tories

Quote
An analysis of the 2015 election by the Compass thinktank, a leading supporter of the idea, has identified more than 100 seats where a progressive alliance could have an impact in reducing the number of Conservative MPs.

Its figures showed that there were 47 constituencies where the combined centre-left vote was greater than the winning 2015 Conservative tally, and 41 more where it is behind by 5% or less.

They also identify a further 48 seats in which one of the parties is 10% or less in front of the Tories or Ukip, and which could be defended by such an alliance.

The scenario that pegs back the Tories is probably not on the cards. Corbyn cannot carry his own party, let alone someone else's.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5798 on: April 19, 2017, 11:43:12 am »
And to pursue that same logic, we should all be allowed to base our electoral opinions on issues that we care about. Europe encapsulates much of what I care about, even before the referendum, and even more so afterwards as the consequences became clearer. I'm internationalist, looking abroad as much as at home. I want a strong economy that is the basis of strong social foundations. I want no part of bigotry. I want regulations that take care of people, employees, products and the environment. All of that was encapsulated by our membership of the EU. And Corbyn sides with the Tories on this. So I can only conclude that on the economy, on internationalism, on liberalism, on rights, and on better social foundations, he sides with the Tories, and has little in common with me. And he has shown this in action, as recently as this year.

Since no one has any interest in electing a non-Tory government anyway, we might as well base our decisions on the issue(s) that matter to us. Whatever one might say about the Lib Dems, at present Labour are worse.
Completely agree with all you say m8. this is about the long term future of this country not the next 5 yrs. I don't think people realize how they are being manipulated by the right wing, not only will their standard of living drop, there working conditions will deteriorate as well, it's a massive step backwards.
I just look at one way, even with the best will in the world you cant make improvements without money. your right, this does mean having a strong economy. leaving the EU will make our economy far weaker, there will be no money to make any improvements.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 11:46:39 am by oldfordie »
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5799 on: April 19, 2017, 11:51:54 am »
Looks like you've actually confirmed that's exactly the case in your post. Iraq is your personal opinion. it has no connection to his achievements improving the lives of the sick and the poor, it has no connection to his policys which improved our standard of living.
If people want to have a go at him over Iraq then fine but they cant keep saying his government were just Torys then justify the criticism quoting Iraq.
Not directed at you but Tom Watson gave a magnificent speech defending Labours record during the party conference only for one person to shout Chilcot, the same person will probably be telling everyone they should be ashamed of themselves for not caring about the sick and the poor, to be honest it's sickening.



The connection is crystal clear and highly relevant. He for reasons still best known to him (and of course to Bush) pissed all over all of the decent positive stuff that they delivered by gung-ho waging an unjustified and indefensible war to topple Sadam Hussein.
Logic and decency says you can't simply pick and choose and reflect fondly on only the good bits of his time in office.  It's not defendable at all in one and the same breath to state that the Iraq war had no impact on us as our living standards improved.

The facts are that our military were sent there on Tony Blair's alleged "WMD" hunt - and 179 of them never came back to their families. Try telling those families it was a minor negative blip in the great political scheme of things and that they would do well to remember Blair improved our living standards.

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