Topic: The Labour Party (*)

[Alan_X]

Maybe that's just a depressing sign of the split within the left at the moment, where the constant point scoring on both sides is more important than winning seats in June.

The only important thing is, or was, winning seats in a general election. The membership have decided to shoot themselves in both feet and full in the face by choosing Corbyn as leader. That's not point scoring, its a fact.

I can only assume that the people who still support him share his vision of a party of protest. Political purity over electability.

[CornerFlag]

Can't understand the antipathy towards Jones. He's going out there and putting forward socialist ideas on programmes like the Daily Politics. You don't have to agree with him by any means but I'd have thought on a left leaning board such as this he wouldn't come in for as much criticism.

Maybe that's just a depressing sign of the split within the left at the moment, where the constant point scoring on both sides is more important than winning seats in June.

Because it's easier to shit on ideas and throw the toys out of the pram.  The only Labour that can win in their eyes is one that takes the party back further to the right than the Lib Dems.  That's not to say Labour shouldn't castigate those views from the party, but to use them exclusively highlights a disregard for those who actually ally with the left of the party.

My argument is that these aren't 'centrists' but are on the centre-right of politics, not just the party and cling onto the Labour Party because the idiom of left = good, right = bad is so prevalent in a lot of minds and the thought of being on that side of the centre line is somewhat horrifying.  And again, not me saying that they're Tories in disguise, not at all.  The views of the Labour Party capture attention from all parts of the political spectrum, it's why UKIP do have origins within Labour and not just the Tories.

So yeah, the centre ground is a lot further politically than the Labour Party and Lib Dems have been in recent years, but by all means don't stop believing that some of the views on here are on the left when all you've done is tried to shift the centre to the right.

[Purple Red]

Can't understand the antipathy towards Jones. He's going out there and putting forward socialist ideas on programmes like the Daily Politics. You don't have to agree with him by any means but I'd have thought on a left leaning board such as this he wouldn't come in for as much criticism.

Maybe that's just a depressing sign of the split within the left at the moment, where the constant point scoring on both sides is more important than winning seats in June.

He's a smug, arrogant know-it-all who is the exact kind of Labour member that turns many off the party. As someone said above, he cannot speak or write for more than a second with preaching what he views as his flawless interpretation of society. I'm not from England but I know if I presented many voters I know with Owen Jones it would turn them right off Labour.

[Libertine]

Kate Hoey tries to photoshop her opponent out of a picture.

And fails badly.....

https://twitter.com/hijakejohnstone/status/861854577892741120

[Danny55]

The only important thing is, or was, winning seats in a general election. The membership have decided to shoot themselves in both feet and full in the face by choosing Corbyn as leader. That's not point scoring, its a fact.

I can only assume that the people who still support him share his vision of a party of protest. Political purity over electability.

I'm sure there's plenty of Labour members who didn't think Brown/Miliband were going to win the election but still campaigned in favour of a Labour government nonetheless.

"Oh look here's Owen Jones on the T.V with his socialist views, let's hope it's a complete car crash so we can laugh our bollocks off." That type of view just makes no sense to me. It's just dismal from both sides of the party.

[SP]

I'm sure there's plenty of Labour members who didn't think Brown/Miliband were going to win the election but still campaigned in favour of a Labour government nonetheless.

"Oh look here's Owen Jones on the T.V with his socialist views, let's hope it's a complete car crash so we can laugh our bollocks off." That type of view just makes no sense to me. It's just dismal from both sides of the party.

You are extrapolating the views of killer_heels to others. That is almost never valid.

[Danny55]

He's a smug, arrogant know-it-all who is the exact kind of Labour member that turns many off the party. As someone said above, he cannot speak or write for more than a second with preaching what he views as his flawless interpretation of society. I'm not from England but I know if I presented many voters I know with Owen Jones it would turn them right off Labour.

Because he's confident in the way he speaks? Let's face it, there aren't many left wing voices in the country's media and at least he's putting forward a different agenda regardless of what you think of his personality.

[Alan_X]

I'm sure there's plenty of Labour members who didn't think Brown/Miliband were going to win the election but still campaigned in favour of a Labour government nonetheless.

"Oh look here's Owen Jones on the T.V with his socialist views, let's hope it's a complete car crash so we can laugh our bollocks off." That type of view just makes no sense to me. It's just dismal from both sides of the party.

It's gallows humour mate. My party is disappearing down the shitter and there's nothing I can do about it. In the first leadership campaign Owen treated Corbyn like some kind of guru.

[Purple Red]

Because he's confident in the way he speaks? Let's face it, there aren't many left wing voices in the country's media and at least he's putting forward a different agenda regardless of what you think of his personality.

It's his self-righteousness I can't stand. That does not impress people.

[TepidT2O]

I don't think that observation's quite fair. I've watched the Manchester speech from beginning to end. Julie Hesmondshalgh was as you would imagine as straight as a die and spoke from the heart. Jeremy Corbyn spoke of the duplicity of this government led by Maggie May who claims she wants to treat our people with fairness and equanimity. The same woman sat in Cabinet whilst Camoron ripped into those people with the bedroom tax and not a whimper out of her. She was there too when IDS brought ATOS on board to subject our sick and disabled people to the most inhumane social welfare treatment this land has ever witnessed. Jeremy never inferred either to this being Tory corruption or that Labour would not be as corrupt. He said that was Tory inhumanity and Labour would end that in favour of restoring decency and compassion to our society. Quite right and honourable in my opinion.

The difference in emphasis is diametrically opposed to more of the same - or even worse - from the Tories. THAT'S the absolute and fundamental difference between the parties vying for power.

I don't disagree on the content, but my opinion is that you need to set out a vision a strategy for the future of the country.


Too much about what was wrong with the Tories than what labour could do for your undecided voter for my liking..

Still an improvement on recent showings though, and mostly positive...

[Yorkykopite]

I don't mind Owen Jones. He's certainly better than the deluded Paul Mason. But they both suffer from being former journalists who have now turned into spin doctors and cheerleaders for a narrow political faction. In the process whatever critical faculties they once had have been abandoned. In that sense they are no longer worth reading or listening to.

[zero zero]

'Wenger Out' protesters must give Arsenal manager a chance, says Corbyn

Jeremy Corbyn has told young supporters to give under-pressure Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger a chance after spotting a protest sign at one of his rallies in Leamington Spa.

http://news.sky.com/story/wenger-out-protesters-must-give-arsenal-manager-a-chance-says-corbyn-10869357

I knew it

[TepidT2O]

I don't mind Owen Jones. He's certainly better than the deluded Paul Mason. But they both suffer from being former journalists who have now turned into spin doctors and cheerleaders for a narrow political faction. In the process whatever critical faculties they once had have been abandoned. In that sense they are no longer worth reading or listening to.

Owen Jones' article from 2011 eulogising Hugo Chavez is certainly an entertaining read now if you dig it out.

He says a lot that is good, but so much that is also tosh that I struggle to understand why so much weight is given to his opinion.

[Yorkykopite]

I knew it

Although to be fair to Wenger he has achieved stuff. He is, or certainly was, a winner. And he may yet lift the Cup in a few weeks time. Whereas dreary old Jezza has never won anything and never achieved anything. And he will emphatically NOT be lifting the Cup in a few weeks time.

[Purple Red]

He says a lot that is good, but so much that is also tosh that I struggle to understand why so much weight is given to his opinion.

I guess it's his persistance. When I was following opinion articles on the Guardian a little more closely it seemed that he was producing the biggest percentage of all the columnists. He's also big on social media and hares about the country interviewing people on video etc. In journalism nowadays it's the most persistant that thrive, not necessarily the most talented.

[oldfordie]

'Wenger Out' protesters must give Arsenal manager a chance, says Corbyn

Jeremy Corbyn has told young supporters to give under-pressure Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger a chance after spotting a protest sign at one of his rallies in Leamington Spa.

http://news.sky.com/story/wenger-out-protesters-must-give-arsenal-manager-a-chance-says-corbyn-10869357

I knew it

How long will it take for Abbott to say she thinks Jeremys right, Arsenal are a good rugby team and Wenger needs more time.

[zero zero]

Although to be fair to Wenger he has achieved stuff. He is, or certainly was, a winner. And he may yet lift the Cup in a few weeks time. Whereas dreary old Jezza has never won anything and never achieved anything. And he will emphatically NOT be lifting the Cup in a few weeks time.

I'm totally in agreement Jeremy on this. Very happy to see Wenger stay on at Arsenal.

It won't be the last time we hear Corbyn say we need to give someone "a chance" or "more time".

[TepidT2O]

Hang on...

Corbyn has refused to rule out staying in the EU



I have absolutely no idea what labours position is on Europe.

[Danny Boys Dad]

Hang on...

Corbyn has refused to rule out staying in the EU



I have absolutely no idea what labours position is on Europe.

It's a shame that Kuenssberg doesn't interview a few Tories like that.

He's saying he wants to get a good deal and he's taken steps to try and achieve that. May just says she doesn't give a shit about whether we get a deal or not.

[killer-heels]

It's a shame that Kuenssberg doesn't interview a few Tories like that.

He's saying he wants to get a good deal and he's taken steps to try and achieve that. May just says she doesn't give a shit about whether we get a deal or not.

She has had her issues but she literally called Theresa May a failure yesterday.

[stewil007]

the way I read it was that come what may, we are leaving Europe, just not at any cost

[Robinred]

I'm totally in agreement Jeremy on this. Very happy to see Wenger stay on at Arsenal.

It won't be the last time we hear Corbyn say we need to give someone "a chance" or "more time".

That's the drum I've been consistently banging.

I think I've been, along with others, in denial of just how entrenched the people now in charge of the Labour Party are. Members of my family, formerly not involved in politics, nor members of any party, have been galvanised by Momentum and Corbyn et al. They were in Worcester yesterday, and have been using social media to agonise how awful it is that the message of a "decent, honourable man" is being drowned out or distorted by the evil MSM.

I can foresee no prospect of a canny, broad-appeal centrist being given the opportunity after the election to re-shape its policy and direction. So what to do in that event?

What I'm genuinely hopeful of, is the formation of a new party/movement - a realignment of the centre-left. It's name isn't important; indeed a battle for the name "Labour" would be unproductive; that brand is now toxic.

I'm aware this is an unpopular view with many Labour stalwarts, many of whom have a lifetime of service to a party they see as "theirs" - the traditional broad church that tolerated closet Trots and Marxists in their ranks.

But that's how I see it.

[killer-heels]

the way I read it was that come what may, we are leaving Europe, just not at any cost

The Tory twist on that story:

"Labour raise prospect of staying in the EU".

[zero zero]

I can foresee no prospect of a canny, broad-appeal centrist being given the opportunity after the election to re-shape its policy and direction. So what to do in that event?

What I'm genuinely hopeful of, is the formation of a new party/movement - a realignment of the centre-left. It's name isn't important; indeed a battle for the name "Labour" would be unproductive; that brand is now toxic.

I'm aware this is an unpopular view with many Labour stalwarts, many of whom have a lifetime of service to a party they see as "theirs" - the traditional broad church that tolerated closet Trots and Marxists in their ranks.

But that's how I see it.

Is their room? Wouldn't a centre-left party not just cannibalise votes from, nationally, Labour, Lib-ems, Greens leaving only one winner?

[Crumble]

Hang on...

Corbyn has refused to rule out staying in the EU



I have absolutely no idea what labours position is on Europe.

Labour would negotiate a nice soft Brexit deal then put it to Parliament. I would be surprised if it passed, whatever was in it. Parliament would then have to choose between leaving with no deal or staying in (assuming the EU lets us).

[TepidT2O]

Labour would negotiate a nice soft Brexit deal then put it to Parliament. I would be surprised if it passed, whatever was in it. Parliament would then have to choose between leaving with no deal or staying in (assuming the EU lets us).

Mind is changed again

He definitely wants to leave now.

What larks

[Crumble]

Mind is changed again

He definitely wants to leave now.

What larks

Aides to Corbyn say 'Brexit is settled' , if JC is PM 'we will leave the EU'.
... unless we don't, obviously.

[stewil007]

Aides to Corbyn say 'Brexit is settled' , if JC is PM 'we will leave the EU'.
... unless we don't, obviously.

again, the way I read it was leaving but not at any cost.

[Robinred]

Is their room? Wouldn't a centre-left party not just cannibalise votes from, nationally, Labour, Lib-ems, Greens leaving only one winner?

Well, there's going to be one overwhelming winner in a few weeks.

So, if the current Labour leadership carry on regardless, as they've indicated, do we have yet another re-run of the recent (and 1983) battle for the Party's soul, with all the damage that does to the electorate's perceptions?

Macron's success (and Trump's come to that) - notwithstanding the huge differences in political systems - suggest that the political landscape we've got used to is changing fast.

Your question is valid, but is couched in terms that assume a traditional political landscape and electorate.

Maybe that's nowhere like as applicable now.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It's a shame that Kuenssberg doesn't interview a few Tories like that.

He's saying he wants to get a good deal and he's taken steps to try and achieve that. May just says she doesn't give a shit about whether we get a deal or not.

She's a total disgrace. Maybe if people like her did their job, people would have some idea what was actually going on.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The Tory twist on that story:

"Labour raise prospect of staying in the EU".

The Tories have probably just gained Labour twenty million votes.

[Yorkykopite]

She's a total disgrace. Maybe if people like her did their job, people would have some idea what was actually going on.

The BBC journalists don't like Labour, the referees don't like Liverpool......etc

The only thing wrong with this theory is that it's just as pervasive as "the BBC journalists don't like Tories" and "the referees don't like Man Utd."   

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The BBC journalists don't like Labour, the referees don't like Liverpool......etc

The only thing wrong with this theory is that it's just as pervasive as "the BBC journalists don't like Tories" and "the referees don't like Man Utd."   

I'm not talking about BBC Journalists. I'm just talking about her.

[zero zero]

Macron's success (and Trump's come to that) - notwithstanding the huge differences in political systems - suggest that the political landscape we've got used to is changing fast.

Your question is valid, but is couched in terms that assume a traditional political landscape and electorate.

Maybe that's nowhere like as applicable now.

Yes, I accept that. There's also Podemos in Spain, so the rise of a political party can be rapid.

She's a total disgrace. Maybe if people like her did their job, people would have some idea what was actually going on.

Dear old Andy. The post you quoted was complimenting her on the job she was doing.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Yes, I accept that. There's also Podemos in Spain, so the rise of a political party can be rapid. Dear old Andy. The post you quoted was complimenting her on the job she was doing.

Yeah. I'd be happy if she did her job regardless of who she was interviewing. Obviously a bit of a crazy idea.

[zero zero]

Yeah. I'd be happy if she did her job regardless of who she was interviewing. Obviously a bit of a crazy idea.

Stop whining just because Jeremy wasn't able to say what his aides said an hour later.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Stop whining just because Jeremy wasn't able to say what his aides said an hour later.

I like her as much as you like Jeremy Corbyn.

[Yorkykopite]

I like her as much as you like Jeremy Corbyn.

Or as much as you like Jeremy Corbyn....... 

Fuck Labour. Totally fuck Corbyn.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Or as much as you like Jeremy Corbyn....... 

I think he's a tit for his stance on Europe. I wasn't sure when he turned up. I hoped that he'd be good for Labour and the country, but I don't think he is.

Luckily my MP voted against the Government otherwise I'd be pretty pissed off at her too.

[BoRed]

There's also Podemos in Spain, so the rise of a political party can be rapid.

Not under FPTP, unfortunately.