Topic: The Labour Party (*)

[zero zero]

He said he would stay leader, which suggests he is confident of winning the election.

What? He'd be the Prime Minister. Why would he need to clarify that he'd stay leader?

I'm all ears.

[classycarra]

What? He'd be the Prime Minister. Why would he need to clarify that he'd stay leader?

I'm all ears.

Haha!

[TepidT2O]

What? He'd be the Prime Minister. Why would he need to clarify that he'd stay leader?

I'm all ears.

He wouldn't be prime minister..

He wouldn't be able to command to confidence of the house.....

Which makes the whole election a joke..

[Robinred]

I think the majority of posters in this thread, whatever their strength of feeling about the current Labour Party, have resigned themselves to Corbyn staying on as leader.

The people surrounding him won't allow their grip on the Party to be lost just because of a small inconvenience like electoral meltdown.

[BoRed]

What? He'd be the Prime Minister. Why would he need to clarify that he'd stay leader?

I'm all ears.

Because that's the question he'd been asked.

[BoRed]

I think the majority of posters in this thread, whatever their strength of feeling about the current Labour Party, have resigned themselves to Corbyn staying on as leader.

The people surrounding him won't allow their grip on the Party to be lost just because of a small inconvenience like electoral meltdown.

Not a chance, the members will vote him out.

[TepidT2O]

Not a chance, the members will vote him out.

I tend to agree...

[killer-heels]

Corbyn cannot say that he wont stand down. Thats odd if he does.

[zero zero]

Because that's the question he'd been asked.

What question would that be?

[BoRed]

What question would that be?

Will you still be leader after the election?

[Robinred]

Not a chance, the members will vote him out.

That'll be the same members who ignored the "enemy" PLP's vote of no-confidence, responded en masse with social media memes about "chicken coups and Red Tories" then gave him a landslide victory?

[classycarra]

I don't think it's as clear as that. As has been pointed out above, it would be wrong to even talk about the possibility of losing at this stage. Has May said what she'd do if she lost? Had Miliband done it before the last election? As pointless as it is, at this moment it's his job to at least pretend that losing is not on the agenda.

Regardless of all those other people that you are using to obfuscate, he was clearly asked to elaborate what he would do if he lost the election. And the journalist has paraphrased it this way "No matter what happens on 8 June, he said, he would be "carrying on"."

I'm sure their recordings and transcripts will back that up, otherwise we can expect Corbyn's team to threaten legal action for libel. This draft will already have been run past his office, since it's an exclusive he gave Buzzfeed, so the fact it's been published suggests they are comfortable with the wording.

Not a chance, the members will vote him out.

That sounds more like what you're hoping for, rather than what you expect

[BoRed]

That'll be the same members who ignored the "enemy" PLP's vote of no-confidence, responded en masse with social media memes about "chicken coups and Red Tories" then gave him a landslide victory?

There was no landslide. Owen Smith ran him reasonably close, and that was before any of the recent (and future) electoral disasters. A genuine challenger will defeat him.

[killer-heels]

Not a chance, the members will vote him out.

Bollocks. He is a shoe in again.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

There was no landslide. Owen Smith ran him reasonably close, and that was before any of the recent (and future) electoral disasters. A genuine challenger will defeat him.

depends on who challenges him

[Robinred]

There was no landslide. Owen Smith ran him reasonably close, and that was before any of the recent (and future) electoral disasters. A genuine challenger will defeat him.

62% seems more than reasonably close.

Anyway, we'll see in due course.

[zero zero]

Will you still be leader after the election?

Keep digging

[BoRed]

Regardless of all those other people that you are using to obfuscate, he was clearly asked to elaborate what he would do if he lost the election. And the journalist has paraphrased it this way "No matter what happens on 8 June, he said, he would be "carrying on"."

I'm sure their recordings and transcripts will back that up, otherwise we can expect Corbyn's team to threaten legal action for libel. This draft will already have been run past his office, since it's an exclusive he gave Buzzfeed, so the fact it's been published suggests they are comfortable with the wording.

Possibly, but there's no direct quote, he said he would stay on, but he didn't mention that he was even considering the possibility of losing. If he was openly talking about losing and resigning, people would be posting pictures of white flags being waved.

[redmark]

That'll be the same members who ignored the "enemy" PLP's vote of no-confidence, responded en masse with social media memes about "chicken coups and Red Tories" then gave him a landslide victory?

At the very least, it will be much closer. There will be a better challenger than Smith. Longstanding party members from the left will be forced to reconsider the idea that it just needed a genuine lefty to revitalise the party. Some of those from outside the party may be shocked - and bored - to discover that posting a few rants on FB does not win an election, let alone a revolution. Rank and file members not thrilled by Corbyn, but loyal to the leader and unimpressed by Smith's gaffes, will be fed up pounding the streets only to get home and see Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry or Burgon discarding their efforts with some incompetent interview. Corbyn does not seem to relish the leadership, but enjoys some personal credibility on the left that his fellow travellers do not.

[classycarra]

Possibly, but there's no direct quote, he said he would stay on, but he didn't mention that he was even considering the possibility of losing. If he was openly talking about losing and resigning, people would be posting pictures of white flags being waved.

It's clear as day it was put to him. If you assume your first question is correct, then he was probably asked something like this in the follow up (hence why Buzzfeed have confidently paraphrased that he won't quit):

Q1 Will you still be leader after the election?
A1 "I was elected leader of this party and I’ll stay leader of this party,"

Q2 Ok but what about the constant criticism and poor poll ratings. What if you end up losing the election?
A2 No matter what happens on 8 June, he said, he would be "carrying on"

Verbal conversational (not live) interviews, especially with serial equivocators like Corbyn, don't always produce a nice direct quote for you. You can choose to ignore it in the vain hope he hasn't said that though.

I'm sure a Corbyn fan on Twitter will berate the journalist with a similar complaint, so we'll probably get a clarification soon enough.


PS you didn't share whether leadership election loss you predicted Corbyn would suffer in the summer was what you were hoping for.

[killer-heels]

At the very least, it will be much closer. There will be a better challenger than Smith. Longstanding party members from the left will be forced to reconsider the idea that it just needed a genuine lefty to revitalise the party. Some of those from outside the party may be shocked - and bored - to discover that posting a few rants on FB does not win an election, let alone a revolution. Rank and file members not thrilled by Corbyn, but loyal to the leader and unimpressed by Smith's gaffes, will be fed up pounding the streets only to get home and see Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry or Burgon discarding their efforts with some incompetent interview. Corbyn does not seem to relish the leadership, but enjoys some personal credibility on the left that his fellow travellers do not.

Who will that better challenger be?

[BoRed]

Keep digging

Seriously, suppose he was asked "Will you stay as leader if you lose the election?", how would you have liked him to answer? Or, rather, how would a (potential) Labour voter like him to answer?

Surely the only possible answer is to say "We won't lose, I'll stay."

In any case, his answer has no bearing whatsoever on what happens after the election.

[classycarra]

Seriously, suppose he was asked "Will you stay as leader if you lose the election?", how would you have liked him to answer? Or, rather, how would a (potential) Labour voter like him to answer?

Surely the only possible answer is to say "We won't lose, I'll stay."

In any case, his answer has no bearing whatsoever on what happens after the election.

But we aren't dealing in hypotheticals. We are dealing with this particular interview and what he was asked and how he answered.

We could spend a lot of time going round in your circles if we spoke about what he hypothetically should have said, but that wasn't the discussion.

Why the goal post move, and then outright dismissal of your own point of correction as having no bearing whatsoever?

[Robinred]

At the very least, it will be much closer. There will be a better challenger than Smith. Longstanding party members from the left will be forced to reconsider the idea that it just needed a genuine lefty to revitalise the party. Some of those from outside the party may be shocked - and bored - to discover that posting a few rants on FB does not win an election, let alone a revolution. Rank and file members not thrilled by Corbyn, but loyal to the leader and unimpressed by Smith's gaffes, will be fed up pounding the streets only to get home and see Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry or Burgon discarding their efforts with some incompetent interview. Corbyn does not seem to relish the leadership, but enjoys some personal credibility on the left that his fellow travellers do not.

Fair enough Mark. My gut feeling is that people like me - a lifelong Labour member - will look elsewhere. I resigned my membership, with a heavy heart, after that second ballot. I could not conscience giving my monthly subs to a bunch of communists, subversives, entryists and naive £3er ideologues.

I will be faced with a dilemma. Rejoin and see the whole nightmare repeated, or keep my tinder dry and await the (likely) emergence of a centre left movement akin to En Marche. These are strange times and things can change very quickly.

[BoRed]

PS you didn't share whether leadership election loss you predicted Corbyn would suffer in the summer was what you were hoping for.

I'm hoping Labour will win.

But if they don't, I'd be hoping he'd resign, as the last thing we need is another challenge. But if there is another challenge, I couldn't possibly tell you what I'd be hoping for before I know what the options would be. Most likely, though, I'd be hoping he loses, just as I was last year.

[zero zero]

Seriously, suppose he was asked "Will you stay as leader if you lose the election?", how would you have liked him to answer? Or, rather, how would a (potential) Labour voter like him to answer?

Surely the only possible answer is to say "We won't lose, I'll stay."

In any case, his answer has no bearing whatsoever on what happens after the election.

Au contraire. Corbyn's key demographic heard him loud and clear

Well done Jeremy said he won't resign even if Labour loses.

[redmark]

Fair enough Mark. My gut feeling is that people like me - a lifelong Labour member - will look elsewhere. I resigned my membership, with a heavy heart, after that second ballot. I could not conscience giving my monthly subs to a bunch of communists, subversives, entryists and naive £3er ideologues.

I will be faced with a dilemma. Rejoin and see the whole nightmare repeated, or keep my tinder dry and await the (likely) emergence of a centre left movement akin to En Marche. These are strange times and things can change very quickly.

If Labour is hammered, and then Corbyn again or one of his mates is elected, I'll leave the party then. But not before I have a vote to try and stop that happening.

[BoRed]

But we aren't dealing in hypotheticals. We are dealing with this particular interview and what he was asked and how he answered.

We could spend a lot of time going round in your circles if we spoke about what he hypothetically should have said, but that wasn't the discussion.

Why the goal post move, and then outright dismissal of your own point of correction as having no bearing whatsoever?

Well, yes, let's drop the hypotheticals, forget what he should have said, but also what he might have said (your own hypotheticals above). Looking at the direct quotes alone, I don't see much wrong with what he did say. Precisely because it will have no bearing on what actually happens after the election.

[classycarra]

I'm hoping Labour will win.

But if they don't, I'd be hoping he'd resign, as the last thing we need is another challenge. But if there is another challenge, I couldn't possibly tell you what I'd be hoping for before I know what the options would be. Most likely, though, I'd be hoping he loses, just as I was last year.

Nice one for sharing that.

You and me both, on the hope he resigns. I have no expectations that he is anything but a vainglorious prick who will stay on parasitically (I should probably jump off the fence at some point)

[BoRed]

Au contraire. Corbyn's key demographic heard him loud and clear

Which was precisely the post I responded to. I guess I can't even say Trada is wrong without you lot objecting.

[classycarra]

Looking at the direct quotes alone, I don't see much wrong with what he did say. Precisely because it will have no bearing on what actually happens after the election.

Yes, that single line of response uttered to Buzzfeed won't ultimately shape what happens. But it's a chicken and egg thing. It won't shape things, because what he's said shows that he's already decided what happens after the outcome - he will stay on

Which was precisely the post I responded to. I guess I can't even say Trada is wrong without you lot objecting.

To be fair to Trada, I actually think his statement was a more accurate representation than yours!

[BoRed]

You and me both, on the hope he resigns.

But not on the hope Labour will win?

[BoRed]

Yes, that single line of response uttered to Buzzfeed won't ultimately shape what happens. But it's a chicken and egg thing. It won't shape things, because what he's said shows that he's already decided what happens after the outcome - he will stay on

Like I said, I can't see what else he could say. Surely no one can approach any election talking about what happens in the case of defeat. And if an explicit question is asked, all he can do is deflect it.

[zero zero]

Which was precisely the post I responded to. I guess I can't even say Trada is wrong without you lot objecting.

Okay. If you're right and Jeremy believes he's going to win, I would have to say...

Not a chance, the members will vote him out.

For winning an election? No pleasing some people

[BoRed]

Okay. If you're right and Jeremy believes he's going to win, I would have to say...For winning an election? No pleasing some people

I don't quite follow. Jeremy might (be pretending to) believe he'll win. I don't.

[redmark]

Who will that better challenger be?

Scanning down a list of Labour MPs, there are probably at least a dozen fairly well known, better performers than Smith (and more than half the PLP however well known would have the common sense not to say a couple of the stupid things he said in the leadership election).

One thing Labour tends to get wrong is to let the leadership election take the place of an election post mortem and policy review. One approach could be an older unity candidate for a couple of years to oversee policy reviews, sorting out issues with the rules and membership engagement, before a fresh leadership election for the next generation before the next Tory government is mid-term.

Whether immediately or in two years, there is young emerging talent on the backbenches, many of them young enough not to be labelled as Blairites or Brownites. Names? Stella Creasy came second to Tom Watson for the deputy 2 years ago, is active, popular, has broad appeal across the party and there's a growing appetite for the next leader to be a woman (which can only be helped by Smith's performance after convincing Eagle not to run).

[zero zero]

I don't quite follow. Jeremy might (be pretending to) believe he'll win. I don't.

He's making it clear he's staying as leader of the party, which he wouldn't need to do if he won. Secondly, if he won he couldn't be "carrying on" as he'd be doing something new.

Corbyn isn't pretending anything. Trada is happy. Every other Labour member in the thread is re-considering their membership. We all know what it'll mean when Labour get smashed and on the 9th Corbyn says "The real fight starts now!".

[hide5seek]

Scanning down a list of Labour MPs, there are probably at least a dozen fairly well known, better performers than Smith (and more than half the PLP however well known would have the common sense not to say a couple of the stupid things he said in the leadership election).

One thing Labour tends to get wrong is to let the leadership election take the place of an election post mortem and policy review. One approach could be an older unity candidate for a couple of years to oversee policy reviews, sorting out issues with the rules and membership engagement, before a fresh leadership election for the next generation before the next Tory government is mid-term.

Whether immediately or in two years, there is young emerging talent on the backbenches, many of them young enough not to be labelled as Blairites or Brownites. Names? Stella Creasy came second to Tom Watson for the deputy 2 years ago, is active, popular, has broad appeal across the party and there's a growing appetite for the next leader to be a woman (which can only be helped by Smith's performance after convincing Eagle not to run).

Clive Lewis is from the left of Labour. Ex army and a supporter of trident. He's best candidate that could bring both sides together, imo.

[Trev20]

Who will that better challenger be?

Ideally Chukka - alternatively Yvette Cooper.

[west_london_red]

I can't see Corbyn staying on after the election. The thrashing coming the Party's way on June 8th will open a lot of people's eyes not already open, the £3'ers will get bored eventually, and the TUs will start feeling pressure from members to start moving him on when another 5 years of the Tories is confirmed and they can look forward to another 5 years of 1% pay rises.