Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I don't believe he's that stupid, he's at an age where he should know a steep rise in oil prices=inflation, a steep drop in the pound =inflation.

i don't think he's stupid either, not that I think he's smart but trying to link everything bad to Tory austerity when it can do easily be argued against is just lying idiotically

Even at three or four percent, to people who aren't putting food on the table it isn't really obvious. I fear food inflation is depressed by the supermarkets to an extent but there will be a bounce. Possibly the blow will be softened if we can buy chlorinated chickens and what not. Unless of course you are a uk farmer when inflation will be the least of your worries.

oh the supermarkets will be covering some of that cost but that will be taking money away from jobs, returns in people's pension funds etc. Short term they might do it relatively happily but it's not sustainable long term when you export the amount we do as a country

[killer-heels]

Gove has said that Britain wont accept cholrinated chicken from the States in any trade deal.

Its incredible really how the Tories have turned to shit in such a short space of time. You have two senior cabinet ministers going out there and setting their stall and giving conflicting information and their views.

[Claire.]

I do think it's quite funny how May has set the main Leave camp into positions to murder eachothers careers.

Well, Fox told us we need to be more positive about Brexit, this is all I've got.

[Libertine]

@lewis_goodall
Pro brexit Andrew Lillico says that UK's mid term economic prospects  post-leaving are thus: "by 2030 we should come out about even."


Definitely all worth it then.

[Claire.]

so there's over a decade of being worse off to come, that's the NHS privatisation pretty much nailed on then.

[oldfordie]

@lewis_goodall
Pro brexit Andrew Lillico says that UK's mid term economic prospects  post-leaving are thus: "by 2030 we should come out about even."


Definitely all worth it then.

Is this where we are supposed to start arguing with the leave campaign is it worth it while accepting this as true.
He might as well be saying things will pick up they always do and plucking a time out of thin air.

[Andy]

Yeah I should have excluded many leave voters as this is advanced economics to some of them.
This is true, One young relative was talking about the pound dropping due to Brexit with his m8s at work.
He got a got a sneer and a dismissive reply of WHAT, how can the pound drop, a  pounds a pound.what are you on about. 

Shows how mental the decision was to hold a referendum and tell them nothing about what it all meant.

...tbf (in my opinion) Remainers did try to warn ppl, but that Pob-faced fuck Gove came out with "don't listen to experts".

[oldfordie]

Shows how mental the decision was to hold a referendum and tell them nothing about what it all meant.

...tbf (in my opinion) Remainers did try to warn ppl, but that Pob-faced fuck Gove came out with "don't listen to experts".

I was thinking the same, there are still people who think the EU need us more than we need them. I don't think they bothered researching Brexit and I don't think they've bothered following the news over the last year on Brexit. the referendum should never have been called, Brexit has convinced me referendums should be banned.

[Libertine]

Gideon nailing it in the Standard again today.

[killer-heels]

Gideon nailing it in the Standard again today.

Gideon is only good for sticking it to May. Its through his government why we are in this mess.

[Zeb]

so there's over a decade of being worse off to come, that's the NHS privatisation pretty much nailed on then.

To paint an even bleaker picture, if that forecast is similar to others done, it's dependent on a bonfire of regulations touching on work and the environment. The small print is rather terrifying.

[Libertine]

Gideon is only good for sticking it to May. Its through his government why we are in this mess.

Well it was Cameron's government not his (and Osbourne was against holding the referendum) but regardless the point he's making here is valid.

[bigbonedrawky]

Brexit has convinced me referendums should be banned.

What about a Referendum...on whether to ban Referendums ? 
Why would you want to give away another one of your Rights ?
I'd vote in a referendum which would make "350 million a week for the NHS" type of lies by MPs a criminal offence similar to fraud.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-negotiator-europe-euratom-airline-safety-negotiations-theresa-may-worse-anyone-guessed-a7858586.html

As a British EU negotiator, I can tell you that Brexit is going to be far worse than anyone could have guessed
The Government keeps saying it ‘didn’t realise’ the problems, but they had the experts at Whitehall – they just refused to listen to them. Now we’re facing a breakdown in airline safety, medicine, animal welfare, security, international aid and so much more

For anyone following Brexit developments, the last week should have shown that the level of complexity involved in Brexit is unprecedented. Ministers however seem to have inserted their heads firmly into the sand, hoping tricky problems will just go away.

Who knew a fortnight ago that leaving the apparently obscure Euratom Treaty would jeopardise not only the UK nuclear industry, but also the supply of medical isotopes for cancer treatment?

Did anybody realise that the work needed to establish a new customs IT system was unlikely to be done in time, and what that would mean?

Was everyone already aware that UK airlines like easyJet would need to set up in the EU27 and Ryanair might move its planes to EU27 countries due to the UK leaving the Open Skies Agreement?

Well, some people knew, but they’re just experts, so have been largely ignored.

I was walking across a Brussels park a couple of days after the Article 50 bill was published when I spotted a friend who’s an energy sector expert.  He hailed me with an anguished: “Steve, Euratom, why would they do that!? It’s just so unnecessary. A total own goal.”

Being a sector expert, he knows that the nuclear industry in the UK relies massively on Euratom, and that it may take years and lots of money to get back to the point we’re at now. All that matters to the Government, apparently, is that Euratom is within the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, so it has to go.

In international development, the area I used to work in, things are equally grim. UK NGOs such as Oxfam will not be eligible for EU grants post-Brexit. With only a few small exceptions, only NGOs from EU countries, and the partner countries themselves, can implement EU aid programmes.

I know this well, as I was the UK negotiator for the EU regulation on this. As Tamsyn Barton, my old boss in the Department for International Development, and now chief executive of Bond, the UK NGO network, points out, this will hit large and small NGOs, as well as the many UK companies that currently implement EU aid. So UK NGOs may well struggle, UK companies will be worse off, and developing countries will have access to a smaller pool of expertise. Who knew?

There are literally hundreds of such issues where the effects of Brexit will be detrimental to the UK. All of these have to be resolved in Brexit negotiations, or mitigated by the UK Government. I worked on and in the EU for 12 years, but issues that had never even occurred to me come up all the time. For example, while we are becoming aware of the impact of leaving the Open Skies Agreement on the aviation market, few have spotted Brexit’s impact on aviation safety.

The UK does not have its own capacity to do things like certify maintenance facilities if it leaves the European Aviation Safety Agency. Yes, you heard that right. The UK won’t be able to certify the people that fix the planes. As with so many of these issues, the UK will either have to negotiate to remain in the agency (which is within the dreaded European Court of Justice’s jurisdiction), or establish its own capacity to replace what it does from a standing start in only 20 months.

How will the UK remain in the EU’s internal energy market post-Brexit as it looks to import more energy from the EU, and what are the implications if it doesn’t? What about the Emissions Trading System? Patents and intellectual property rights? Food standards? Medicine approvals? Europol? The list goes on and on.

What is most frustrating, and deeply worrying, about these continuous “we didn’t realise that” moments is that the Government has plenty of excellent sector-specific experts in Whitehall, and the United Kingdom Representation to the European Union (UKRep), which represents the UK in negotiations that take place in the EU. I simply don’t believe that they are not doing their job and reporting these issues to ministers and their offices.

Perhaps those closest to ministers are controlling the supply of information to them, and the messages are not getting through, but reporting back the realities in Brussels to London is a core task of UKRep, and one that’s always taken very seriously. When Sir Ivan Rogers talked about “speaking truth to power”, he was just talking about what every one of the desk officers and counsellors at UKRep do every day.

Why is this top quality expertise and advice not getting through to, or not being listened to, by ministers?

The incredible level of technical complexity appears to have been ignored by the Prime Minister and government ministers, so we can look forward to further weeks of startling discoveries of self-defeating implications of the Government’s own Brexit strategy.

I’ve said elsewhere that, in my view, the chances of getting any deal, let alone a good deal, in the limited time available look minimal. Brexit would have been a terrible idea even if done as well as possible, but for the Government to blithely march the country towards consequences that they don’t even themselves understand is an appalling dereliction of duty.

This expert believes that this needs to be stopped, and soon. Then again, we already know they don’t like experts.

Steve Bullock worked at the UK Representation to the EU from 2010-2014 where he negotiated several EU regulations for the UK in European Council working groups. He has also worked for the European Commission and the Department for International Development’s Europe Department. The UK in a Changing Europe assisted with the commissioning of this piece

[oldfordie]

What about a Referendum...on whether to ban Referendums ? 
Why would you want to give away another one of your Rights ?
I'd vote in a referendum which would make "350 million a week for the NHS" type of lies by MPs a criminal offence similar to fraud.

I think the most important right by far is to have the experienced intelligent people we voted for to represent us in Parliament. they should be the people who make the complex decisions on running the country on our behalf.
Of course people will say our MPs are just as thick as the public but that's not really true and our MPs wishes can be over ruled when they have good reason to do it by holding future votes in parliament.

[AaronSingh25]

Only in this thread can the leader of the biggest economy in the world offer us an olive branch be taken as a negative

This.

[Bunter]

This.

Pull your head out your arse. You're hanging onto the words of Donald Trump ffs.

[Party Phil]

This.

You two planks really don't get it. These are two powerful nations with a misplaced sense of national pride despite being in the midst of a colossal self induced political shambles and each with beleaguered leaders facing a massive loss of confidence and popularity who are desperate to make a deal that makes them look strong and powerful. It's hardly conducive to getting a win-win scenario. Either somebody is getting utterly fucked (and my money is on Mrs. Weak & Wobbly) or more likely the whole thing breaks down and nothing gets agreed.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Only in this thread can the leader of the biggest economy in the world offer us an olive branch be taken as a negative

This.

You two planks really don't get it. These are two powerful nations with a misplaced sense of national pride despite being in the midst of a colossal self induced political shambles and each with beleaguered leaders facing a massive loss of confidence and popularity who are desperate to make a deal that makes them look strong and powerful. It's hardly conducive to getting a win-win scenario. Either somebody is getting utterly fucked (and my money is on Mrs. Weak & Wobbly) or more likely the whole thing breaks down and nothing gets agreed.

This.

[west_london_red]

It's also worth considering that it's very,very unlikely that a deal will get done within Trumps first term, and it's far from certain that 1) he'll last the full first term 2) he'll get a second term, so for that as well as many other reasons (being deranged for one) I wouldn't pay that much attention to Trumps desires to get a deal done just yet.

[J_Kopite]

You two planks really don't get it. These are two powerful nations with a misplaced sense of national pride despite being in the midst of a colossal self induced political shambles and each with beleaguered leaders facing a massive loss of confidence and popularity who are desperate to make a deal that makes them look strong and powerful. It's hardly conducive to getting a win-win scenario. Either somebody is getting utterly fucked (and my money is on Mrs. Weak & Wobbly) or more likely the whole thing breaks down and nothing gets agreed.

This

[Lush is the best medicine...]

@lewis_goodall
Pro brexit Andrew Lillico says that UK's mid term economic prospects  post-leaving are thus: "by 2030 we should come out about even."


Definitely all worth it then.

would have looked shit on the side of a bus

[Commie Bobbie]

would have looked shit on the side of a bus

Fucking hell, by then half of the leave voters would have shuffled off out of the waiting room.

[killer-heels]

One thing thats funny about all this is how a trade deal between two countries seems to have become a simple thing to negotiate and carry out. Lots seem to think you can sort one out in a few weeks. So the public, who take months to buy a house, seem to think a trade deal is easy.

[oldfordie]

One thing thats funny about all this is how a trade deal between two countries seems to have become a simple thing to negotiate and carry out. Lots seem to think you can sort one out in a few weeks. So the public, who take months to buy a house, seem to think a trade deal is easy.

I doubt if the same people understand why we will have to negotiate over 80 trade deals after we leave the EU.
All we hear now is when we leave the EU we will be able too,or we can negotiate our own trade deals around the world, what ive not heard people say is when we leave the EU we will be forced to negotiate over 80 new trade deals as the trade deals we have with them now become null and void the day we leave the EU. we will fall back on WTO trade regulations for many years to come.

[killer-heels]

I doubt if the same people understand why we will have to negotiate over 80 trade deals after we leave the EU.
All we hear now is when we leave the EU we will be able too,or we can negotiate our own trade deals around the world, what ive not heard people say is when we leave the EU we will be forced to negotiate over 80 new trade deals as the trade deals we have with them now become null and void the day we leave the EU. we will fall back on WTO trade regulations for many years to come.

The thing about all this is how its approached politically. Personally, I don't think a strategy of staying in the EU will benefit any party in the short or even, if you are optimistic, medium term. As we saw with the 0.3% growth figures, they are not that bad and certainly not bad enough to make the whole country or even vast swathes of it feel any regret. So I don't agree with many on here that for Labour it makes sense to back Remain now because all that will mean is the Tories increasing majorities in the last election and even the next.

Any impact to all this will  be in the longer term.

[Red-Soldier]

The thing about all this is how its approached politically. Personally, I don't think a strategy of staying in the EU will benefit any party in the short or even, if you are optimistic, medium term. As we saw with the 0.3% growth figures, they are not that bad and certainly not bad enough to make the whole country or even vast swathes of it feel any regret. So I don't agree with many on here that for Labour it makes sense to back Remain now because all that will mean is the Tories increasing majorities in the last election and even the next.

Any impact to all this will  be in the longer term.

But we aren't out yet.

Everything has still yet to be decided, it could all go south pretty quickly I would suggest.

[killer-heels]

But we aren't out yet.

Everything has still yet to be decided, it could all go south pretty quickly I would suggest.

Indeed. But the point was that there isn't that much political success to be gained with running on a full remain strategy, not in the short term at least.

[oldfordie]

The thing about all this is how its approached politically. Personally, I don't think a strategy of staying in the EU will benefit any party in the short or even, if you are optimistic, medium term. As we saw with the 0.3% growth figures, they are not that bad and certainly not bad enough to make the whole country or even vast swathes of it feel any regret. So I don't agree with many on here that for Labour it makes sense to back Remain now because all that will mean is the Tories increasing majorities in the last election and even the next.

Any impact to all this will  be in the longer term.

Maybe we are looking at it the wrong way, the EU can only create the conditions for us to trade successfully, if our government mess things up then we shouldn't be blaming the EU.
There are just too many stats and figure that can be used to make the point you want.
I was reading the other day that the low pound would increase our exports yet afaik they only went up5% when the pound dropped 20-25%.
I prefer to just look at the facts to form an opinion of what will happen if we leave the EU.
I was reading finance in the city pays in over 11% of our tax revenue, we dont need stats or graphs to appreciate just how damaging this loss will be to the countrys if the major banks all relocate.
Then theres the UK car manufacturers, employ over 850.000 workers, massive amount of revenue to the country. this is the realty of Brexit to me.
This is what annoys me when people say things will pick up, based on what. if these 2 industry's were going through hard times then yes things could pick up but we are talking about them going for good.
some other industry's would have to replace them for things to pick up, no other industry could come in and contribute 11% of our tax revenue, no other industry could come in and replace over 850.000 well paid jobs.

[Sangria]

Indeed. But the point was that there isn't that much political success to be gained with running on a full remain strategy, not in the short term at least.

Political impact is irrelevant. There won't be another public vote before the process is over. The only people able to affect things before the process is over are the MPs. Either you do something while you still can, or you are complicit in allowing the Tory right to do whatever they want. In the latter case, the effects will last for decades, and I don't expect us to recover in my lifetime.

[filopastry]

I can't say I'm entirely surprised to see the beginning of Ireland/EU taking a tougher stance on the Irish border, its such an obvious pressure point for a government dependant on DUP votes to prop it up.

[west_london_red]

Maybe we are looking at it the wrong way, the EU can only create the conditions for us to trade successfully, if our government mess things up then we shouldn't be blaming the EU.
There are just too many stats and figure that can be used to make the point you want.
I was reading the other day that the low pound would increase our exports yet afaik they only went up5% when the pound dropped 20-25%.
I prefer to just look at the facts to form an opinion of what will happen if we leave the EU.
I was reading finance in the city pays in over 11% of our tax revenue, we dont need stats or graphs to appreciate just how damaging this loss will be to the countrys if the major banks all relocate.
Then theres the UK car manufacturers, employ over 850.000 workers, massive amount of revenue to the country. this is the realty of Brexit to me.
This is what annoys me when people say things will pick up, based on what. if these 2 industry's were going through hard times then yes things could pick up but we are talking about them going for good.
some other industry's would have to replace them for things to pick up, no other industry could come in and contribute 11% of our tax revenue, no other industry could come in and replace over 850.000 well paid jobs.

The City doesn't contribute 11% of our tax revenues, the finance industry across the whole country does. That's not just investment banking/the City but retail banks and all the way down to call centres for banks if I recall correctly, some of that will be impacted by Brexit and some of it wont (it wont become zero after Brexit either way).

As for things picking up, theory (and that's all it is) would suggest that as our currency depreciates and tariffs are applied and imports become more expensive, the potential to undercut foreign producers would see domestic producers enter a market. Don't forget that while free trade is pretty much accepted now, it wasn't always the case and there has always been an argument against it as a means to protect and encourage domestic production.

[killer-heels]

The City doesn't contribute 11% of our tax revenues, the finance industry across the whole country does. That's not just investment banking/the City but retail banks and all the way down to call centres for banks if I recall correctly, some of that will be impacted by Brexit and some of it wont (it wont become zero after Brexit either way).

As for things picking up, theory (and that's all it is) would suggest that as our currency depreciates and tariffs are applied and imports become more expensive, the potential to undercut foreign producers would see domestic producers enter a market. Don't forget that while free trade is pretty much accepted now, it wasn't always the case and there has always been an argument against it as a means to protect and encourage domestic production.

People are worrying about food costs going up but I am more worried about free trade deals with the states and cheaper food being flooded into the system. This countries farmers would compete with loads of tariffs outside of the Uk in mainland Europe, whilst against cheaper produce being put into the UK from places like the states. They may have to either drop standards to reduce cost.

Personally, i am all for a bit of protectionism. I know we are a consumer nation but we need to protect our industries and we should apply some tarrifs to foreign products.

[oldfordie]

The City doesn't contribute 11% of our tax revenues, the finance industry across the whole country does. That's not just investment banking/the City but retail banks and all the way down to call centres for banks if I recall correctly, some of that will be impacted by Brexit and some of it wont (it wont become zero after Brexit either way).

As for things picking up, theory (and that's all it is) would suggest that as our currency depreciates and tariffs are applied and imports become more expensive, the potential to undercut foreign producers would see domestic producers enter a market. Don't forget that while free trade is pretty much accepted now, it wasn't always the case and there has always been an argument against it as a means to protect and encourage domestic production.

Yes you may well be right on the 11% figure but we are still talking billions of lost revenue and tens of thousands of well paid jobs lost.
The picking up theory is logic based on facts and realty. we loose an industry that employs nearly a million people, other major company's will have to replace those industry's if we want things to pick up. how bad the knock on effect gets when we loose the jobs is theory. I think back to the 70s and boarded up shops, thats the knock on effect.
I don't understand your argument on domestic producers undercutting foreign investment, the reason foreign investors set up here is to become domestic producers so you cant undercut them if they are based in this country. If the foreign investors think their UK based companys are not economically viable then that means UK companys will also struggle to survive..
The free trade deals will take decades to negotiate, ive asked the following question a few times on here over the last year, ive heard the odd politician mention it as well, ive not heard a answer to the question.
Why would you set up in the UK to trade on the other side of the world, every new trade deal will be outside Europe. Ive never understood the logic of this, specialized industrys yes but they don't need great trade deals for them to prosper, they have little competition. now we can argue there will be lots of great trade deals around the world, they are decades away but what is going to happen in the meantime, by meantime I mean from the day we leave the EU over the next 30-40yrs as thats a realistic estimate on getting trade deals that may help us out this mess
Not only have we lost our edge with the rest of the world to trade in the EU we have also thrown away all the trade deals we had around the world with countrys outside the EU, we will be trading on WTO regulations for decades.
Theory. the country wont prosper during this period it will be a massive struggle ,I would hope the country comes to it's senses inside the next few years, they wont wait 20yrs though, the shit will hit the fan long before then, the question will be will the EU let us rejoin.

[west_london_red]

Yes you may well be right on the 11% figure but we are still talking billions of lost revenue and tens of thousands of well paid jobs lost.
The picking up theory is logic based on facts and realty. we loose an industry that employs nearly a million people, other major company's will have to replace those industry's if we want things to pick up. how bad the knock on effect gets when we loose the jobs is theory. I think back to the 70s and boarded up shops, thats the knock on effect.
I don't understand your argument on domestic producers undercutting foreign investment, the reason foreign investors set up here is to become domestic producers so you cant undercut them if they are based in this country. If the foreign investors think their UK based companys are not economically viable then that means UK companys will also struggle to survive..
The free trade deals will take decades to negotiate, ive asked the following question a few times on here over the last year, ive heard the odd politician mention it as well, ive not heard a answer to the question.
Why would you set up in the UK to trade on the other side of the world, every new trade deal will be outside Europe. Ive never understood the logic of this, specialized industrys yes but they don't need great trade deals for them to prosper, they have little competition. now we can argue there will be lots of great trade deals around the world, they are decades away but what is going to happen in the meantime, by meantime I mean from the day we leave the EU over the next 30-40yrs as thats a realistic estimate on getting trade deals that may help us out this mess
Not only have we lost our edge with the rest of the world to trade in the EU we have also thrown away all the trade deals we had around the world with countrys outside the EU, we will be trading on WTO regulations for decades.
Theory. the country wont prosper during this period it will be a massive struggle ,I would hope the country comes to it's senses inside the next few years, they wont wait 20yrs though, the shit will hit the fan long before then, the question will be will the EU let us rejoin.

It's nothing to do with foreign investment, I didn't mention it.

I'll try and explain as best I can.

There is X product, we consume it in this country imported from whichever country, let's say Germany because UK producers can't compete on price and have now stopped production. Now, let's say the Pound depreciated 10%, and there ends up being after Brexit 10% tariffs, so X is now 20% more then it was in the UK. That therefore means that it's now profitable for domestic producers to start production and they do - doesn't matter who invests for that production to start (could be British or foreign) the point is that it is now profitable to do so and we stop or reduce our imports.

The steel industry is probably the best example of this but it could just as easily applied to any commodity good.

[oldfordie]

It's nothing to do with foreign investment, I didn't mention it.

I'll try and explain as best I can.

There is X product, we consume it in this country imported from whichever country, let's say Germany because UK producers can't compete on price and have now stopped production. Now, let's say the Pound depreciated 10%, and there ends up being after Brexit 10% tariffs, so X is now 20% more then it was in the UK. That therefore means that it's now profitable for domestic producers to start production and they do - doesn't matter who invests for that production to start (could be British or foreign) the point is that it is now profitable to do so and we stop or reduce our imports.

The steel industry is probably the best example of this but it could just as easily applied to any commodity good.

I see,so your point is companys based in this country will be able to sell goods more cheaper in this country than foreign competition. yes, I suppose they will, some will have to import materials from abroad but am not going to argue that point, just think it's a weak argument against loosing possibly a few million jobs, we cant just concentrate on producing for the home market and think we will be ok, this wouldn't get us out of the s.. we have to export if we want to keep people in jobs and our economy strong.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Just to say: British entry to WTO is far from a given. Any one member might have good reason to prevent this: the EU (because we failed to pay what we owe them); Spain - through the EU seat on the WTO (because of Gibraltar); Argentina (because they are still pissed off about Falklands); any number of other countries (for past gripes and so to extract concessions on an number of issues).

It seems quite likely that Hard Brexit will occur because 1) too many stupid people in positions of power; and 2) because - even if not that stupid - no one (in a position to do so) will stand up to prevent this madness. I have no faith in May or Corbyn doing anything to stop - only the opposite.

[SP]

I see,so your point is companys based in this country will be able to sell goods more cheaper in this country than foreign competition. yes, I suppose they will, some will have to import materials from abroad but am not going to argue that point, just think it's a weak argument against loosing possibly a few million jobs, we cant just concentrate on producing for the home market and think we will be ok, this wouldn't get us out of the s.. we have to export if we want to keep people in jobs and our economy strong.

This model produced the Austin Princess.

[Party Phil]

This model produced the Austin Princess.

Hahaha, I was just about to post something similar using the Maestro as my example. Economically driven isolationism is just as likely to drive shite quality design and production and as ideologically enforced isolationism (cf. USSR) because the domestic market will never allow businesses to be competitive with multinational competitors abroad.

[west_london_red]

I see,so your point is companys based in this country will be able to sell goods more cheaper in this country than foreign competition. yes, I suppose they will, some will have to import materials from abroad but am not going to argue that point, just think it's a weak argument against loosing possibly a few million jobs, we cant just concentrate on producing for the home market and think we will be ok, this wouldn't get us out of the s.. we have to export if we want to keep people in jobs and our economy strong.

Im putting it out there as a potential outcome, I don't necessarily think it's one this country should hope for or greet with any joy.

As for your last point, I don't disagree with the sentiment but it's also worth pointing out that we have pretty much the lowest levels of employment the country has ever seen, but also pretty much the worst balance of payments at the same time.