Author Topic: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.  (Read 22222 times)

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #80 on: November 1, 2020, 05:16:21 pm »
You're not going to get me to codone his killing because I don't. It was barbaric and senseless.

I'm not trying to. Only a fascist would condone his murder. I'm asking you to defend the teacher.
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #81 on: November 1, 2020, 05:17:00 pm »
You're not going to get me to codone his killing because I don't. It was barbaric and senseless.

That said, there were a million ways he could have approached the topic without having to explicitly recycle the images. I understand he had warned students beforehand, and yet again I will say his death is unjustifiable.

But people have Google, they can access. I could have made his point without having to show the image.

Regardless, I'm not going to justify what took place as there is no justification. I am not so much interested in the aftermath as what caused it and the inconsistency with which it is practised.

Either everything is fair game, or it isn't.A religious belief may appear to be 'nonsense' to you, to others it isn't. To them Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam etc is a way of life and forms a core part of their identity.

You've just made up the rules of what constitutes as free speech. You've drawn your own boundaries of what is acceptable and what isn't.
Every opinion is open for discussion, contest and ..yes, ridicule.

Organised religion is ridiculous. You can’t eat meat on a Friday? You have to store your milk in a different fridge? A whole host of utter nonsense that comes with organised religion. (And that doesn’t even exclude people who believe that religion).

And ridiculous  things are open to ridicule.  And that ridicule goes to all religions....

It’s absurd that pictures would offend a ‘god’.  A supernatural being offended by a picture?  Seems unlikely to me.  But that isnt even what is being ridiculed. What is being ridiculed is the absurd reaction to cartoons.

From the life of Brian to Dave Allen to the Vicar of Dibley, Christianity has been the subject of ridicule ....pretty much ever since they stopped killing or imprisoning people for doing so.
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #82 on: November 1, 2020, 05:23:20 pm »
Every opinion is open for discussion, contest and ..yes, ridicule.

Organised religion is ridiculous. You can’t eat meat on a Friday? You have to store your milk in a different fridge? A whole host of utter nonsense that comes with organised religion. (And that doesn’t even exclude people who believe that religion).

And ridiculous  things are open to ridicule.  And that ridicule goes to all religions....

It’s absurd that pictures would offend a ‘god’.  A supernatural being offended by a picture?  Seems unlikely to me.  But that isnt even what is being ridiculed. What is being ridiculed is the absurd reaction to cartoons.

From the life of Brian to Dave Allen to the Vicar of Dibley, Christianity has been the subject of ridicule ....pretty much ever since they stopped killing or imprisoning people for doing so.

And as for the argument that religious ideas are different because they are bound up with an individual's identity to such a point that to attack the idea is to commit violence against the person.....bullshit. I'm very intense about Liverpool FC, about democratic socialism, about art and literature, about my home county of Yorkshire. In a sense they are part of the fabric of who I am. And I claim the right to say that I feel things just as strongly as a religious person does.

Do I want to prevent people from ridiculing or mocking these things? Of course not. And people do it all the time. So bloody what?
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Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #83 on: November 1, 2020, 05:28:59 pm »
I'm not trying to. Only a fascist would condone his murder. I'm asking you to defend the teacher.
That goes without saying.
Every opinion is open for discussion, contest and ..yes, ridicule.
Only it isn't. There are clear no go areas.

I'm not here defending religion. It can be many things to many people, and in today's society religion is largely a construct of the past and gets ridiculed widely.

It's not for me to say this is right or wrong.

I respect the views of any person regardless of how ridiculous I may find them.

However, the point I am making is free speech and the democracy to discuss everything is an illusion. Boundaries exist and I take issue with Charlie Hebdo being held as some bastion of freedom of speech or the French/Western values, when they know themselves that this is not the case. There are topics which are clearly out of bounds.

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #84 on: November 1, 2020, 05:30:04 pm »
A religious belief may appear to be 'nonsense' to you, to others it isn't. To them Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam etc is a way of life and forms a core part of their identity.

You've just made up the rules of what constitutes as free speech. You've drawn your own boundaries of what is acceptable and what isn't.
What 'rules did I make up' - I made no reference to free speech. ::)

Ideas are fair game for criticism or even ridicule. People - simply because of their inherent characteristics - are not fair game. It is really very simple.
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #85 on: November 1, 2020, 05:36:19 pm »
That goes without saying.Only it isn't. There are clear no go areas.

I'm not here defending religion. It can be many things to many people, and in today's society religion is largely a construct of the past and gets ridiculed widely.

It's not for me to say this is right or wrong.

I respect the views of any person regardless of how ridiculous I may find them.

However, the point I am making is free speech and the democracy to discuss everything is an illusion. Boundaries exist and I take issue with Charlie Hebdo being held as some bastion of freedom of speech or the French/Western values, when they know themselves that this is not the case. There are topics which are clearly out of bounds.
You have decided some topics are out of bounds.  No one else.

What if I said to you that mocking my job was out of bounds?  You’d disagree.  Of course you’d disagree because its absurd.

You’ve unilaterally decided what is and isn’t out of bounds.  And it seems (and I may be wrong here, so forgive me) that its only wrong against one religion.

No topic is out of bounds.  That doesn’t mean that someone isnt a twat for plastering images of Mohammed out side a mosque, of course they are.  Bit that’s the difference between freedom of speech and using freedom fo speech responsibly.

I used to work with a Head of RE at a school. Stella used to show pictures of Islamic art showing images of Mohammed.  It created debate, but it was done sensitively and the kids knew what the purpose was. No one complained, no one tried to kill her.
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #86 on: November 1, 2020, 05:38:04 pm »
However, the point I am making is free speech and the democracy to discuss everything is an illusion. Boundaries exist and I take issue with Charlie Hebdo being held as some bastion of freedom of speech or the French/Western values, when they know themselves that this is not the case. There are topics which are clearly out of bounds.
No one here made any grand claims about Charlie Hebdo.

I doubt anyone here would be discussing or have any strong opinions - nor, indeed, even know of them - if it had not been for the murdering of 12 of their staff. It has fuck all to do with the quality of their output.
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #87 on: November 1, 2020, 05:39:28 pm »
No one here made any grand claims about Charlie Hebdo.

I doubt anyone here would be discussing or have any strong opinions - nor, indeed, even know of them - if it had not been for the murdering of 12 of their staff. It has fuck all to do with the quality of their output.
And indeed, if no one had murdered anyone for drawing cartoons, 99.9% of the world wouldn’t know of their existence
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Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #88 on: November 1, 2020, 05:41:47 pm »
And as for the argument that religious ideas are different because they are bound up with an individual's identity to such a point that to attack the idea is to commit violence against the person.....bullshit. I'm very intense about Liverpool FC, about democratic socialism, about art and literature, about my home county of Yorkshire. In a sense they are part of the fabric of who I am. And I claim the right to say that I feel things just as strongly as a religious person does.

Do I want to prevent people from ridiculing or mocking these things? Of course not. And people do it all the time. So bloody what?
You're not them. How strongly you feel about what you think makes you as a person is relative to you.

There are people who take these matters a lot closer to their hearts. Your opinion, to them, is "bullshit".

So we either all get along, and respect everyone's opinion and I mean EVERYONE. Or we selectively pick and choose what WE think is offensive and then act shocked if others don't see it this way.
What 'rules did I make up' - I made no reference to free speech. ::)

Ideas are fair game for criticism or even ridicule. People - simply because of their inherent characteristics - are not fair game. It is really very simple.
You've just asked what rule you had made and then immediately proceeded to (re)state it.

It's surprising you fail to recognise it, especially seeing as it is so evidently simple.

You draw a line, make a rule that ideas are fair game, but people aren't. You've just made that distinction, your own definition of what free speech is.

By your definition those cartoons shouldn't be allowed then. Afterall, they mocked a person, their prophet, had a bomb on his head no less.

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #89 on: November 1, 2020, 05:46:13 pm »
You draw a line, make a rule that ideas are fair game, but people aren't. You've just made that distinction, your own definition of what free speech is.

By your definition those cartoons shouldn't be allowed then. Afterall, they mocked a person, their prophet, had a bomb on his head no less.
We are posting at a discussion board. I expressed an opinion - strongly. What part of this do you not understand? I did not post any 'rules'.
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #90 on: November 1, 2020, 05:48:07 pm »
You have decided some topics are out of bounds.  No one else.
Really? So hang on, you think Charlie Hebdo -or indeed anyone- can freely say anything they wish about blacks or Jews or gays (for example) and have no repercussions of (rightly) being labelled a racist or trans/homphobe?

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #91 on: November 1, 2020, 05:48:38 pm »
You have decided some topics are out of bounds.  No one else.



Society, in general, sets the no-go areas.

« Last Edit: November 1, 2020, 05:50:49 pm by Red-Soldier »

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #92 on: November 1, 2020, 05:48:54 pm »
Really? So hang on, you think Charlie Hebdo -or indeed anyone- can freely say anything they wish about blacks or Jews or gays (for example) and have no repercussions of (rightly) being labelled a racist or trans/homphobe?
'Inherent characteristics' not 'ideas'. ::)

Or, to put it another way, play the ball, not the man.
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #93 on: November 1, 2020, 05:52:18 pm »
Really? So hang on, you think Charlie Hebdo -or indeed anyone- can freely say anything they wish about blacks or Jews or gays (for example) and have no repercussions of (rightly) being labelled a racist or trans/homphobe?
That’s what freedom of speech is. 

Provided it does not induced violence, then yes.  Does that mean that you should necessarily give such views a platform?  No. You have the right to say it, just not in my house.
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #94 on: November 1, 2020, 05:52:43 pm »
There are topics which are clearly out of bounds.

Religion should never be out of bounds,hold silly beliefs then expect others to mock them & that is especially the case when those beliefs infringe on other peoples lives.
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #95 on: November 1, 2020, 05:55:18 pm »
We are posting at a discussion board. I expressed an opinion - strongly. What part of this do you not understand? I did not post any 'rules'.
Please answer the question. You said a person is off limits, while ideas aren't.

The cartoons were mocking a person, a prophet. Are you saying these cartoons are ok or not?

Also please leave out the repeated digs about my comprehension as it really, really isn't hard to question your intelligence if I wanted. You're already tying yourself in knots.

If you want to 'play the ball' then discuss the topic.

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #96 on: November 1, 2020, 06:02:56 pm »
That’s what freedom of speech is. 

Provided it does not induced violence, then yes.  Does that mean that you should necessarily give such views a platform?  No. You have the right to say it, just not in my house.

It's not what we have though. We have always had limits on freedom of speech, and not just when it incites violence. Granted I have no idea what France's laws are. It is not just TipTopKop that has decided some topics are out of bounds.

That said, in my opinion mocking of religion should absolutely be fair game.

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #97 on: November 1, 2020, 06:03:29 pm »
It's not what we have though. We have always had limits on freedom of speech, and not just when it incites violence. Granted I have no idea what France's laws are. It is not just TipTopKop that has decided some topics are out of bounds.

That said, in my opinion mocking of religion should absolutely be fair game.
Youre right its not what we have.
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Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #98 on: November 1, 2020, 06:03:50 pm »
That’s what freedom of speech is. 

Provided it does not induced violence, then yes.  Does that mean that you should necessarily give such views a platform?  No. You have the right to say it, just not in my house.
I totally agree with the ethos above.

However, you and I know this is not how it works in the real world. Ideally, we should ALL be fair game. But we're not, and it would be naive to deny this.

I know what you mean about people having the right to say whatever (just not in your home) but there are aspects in life where that isn't allowed. You will be charged with being grossly offensive, being a racist, or a homophobe or anti-semitic (and again, to me rightly so), but that rule isn't uniformly applied.

This is what I mean when I say freedom of speech is ultimately a definition.

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #99 on: November 1, 2020, 06:05:37 pm »
Please answer the question. You said a person is off limits, while ideas aren't.

The cartoons were mocking a person, a prophet. Are you saying these cartoons are ok or not?

Also please leave out the repeated digs about my comprehension as it really, really isn't hard to question your intelligence if I wanted. You're already tying yourself in knots.

If you want to 'play the ball' then discuss the topic.
You see, that's where you have swerved off the track:

1) Supposed existence.
2) Supposed 'supernatural powers' ('profit').
3) He's dead.
4) The idea being espoused by Charlie Hebdo is Mohamed as motivator for hatred rather than peace. You may well disagree, but that's OK.

For what it is worth, I thought the cartoons were crap and childish. But it is totally irrelevant what I (or you) think of them when the discussion revolves around 12 of their staff being murdered for simply being associated with some cartoons a few people found offensive. The point is that it is OK for people to attack any ideas they wish. Even ideas which you personally hold dearly. You probably hold some views I feel are totally objectionable - should this give me the right to be so offended as to justify your murder?
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Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #100 on: November 1, 2020, 06:07:06 pm »
It is not just TipTopKop that has decided some topics are out of bounds.
Wait I never said anything should be out of bounds, quite the opposite. I'm saying free speech should be totally free, but in the real application of the law it isn't and that's my point.

I could care less if religion is mocked or not. My point is it's dangerous to wave the freedom of speech flag when we know full well that there are no go areas.

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #101 on: November 1, 2020, 06:08:28 pm »
Wait I never said anything should be out of bounds, quite the opposite. I'm saying free speech should be totally free, but in the real application of the law it isn't and that's my point.

I could care less if religion is mocked or not. My point is it's dangerous to wave the freedom of speech flag when we know full well that there are no go areas.

I agree. There are definitely no go areas.

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #102 on: November 1, 2020, 06:10:21 pm »
I totally agree with the ethos above.

However, you and I know this is not how it works in the real world. Ideally, we should ALL be fair game. But we're not, and it would be naive to deny this.

I know what you mean about people having the right to say whatever (just not in your home) but there are aspects in life where that isn't allowed. You will be charged with being grossly offensive, being a racist, or a homophobe or anti-semitic (and again, to me rightly so), but that rule isn't uniformly applied.

This is what I mean when I say freedom of speech is ultimately a definition.
Discriminating against groups of people is not the same as having and saying opinions that you or I disagree with.

Now I will tell you this, there are bits of Jewish, Christian and Islamic religious texts that part of me thinks should be banned for being grotesquely offensive.

Yet they wont be banned because some people really really rally believe in them. 

As such, you cant have it both ways....

But that’s not to say that these views should regularly be given a major platform.
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #103 on: November 1, 2020, 06:11:15 pm »
Wait I never said anything should be out of bounds, quite the opposite. I'm saying free speech should be totally free, but in the real application of the law it isn't and that's my point.

I could care less if religion is mocked or not. My point is it's dangerous to wave the freedom of speech flag when we know full well that there are no go areas.

Sorry badly phrased on my part. I was referring to this post by Tepid.

You have decided some topics are out of bounds.  No one else.

The poing being we as a society have decided some things are out of bounds.

Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #104 on: November 1, 2020, 06:34:48 pm »
Discriminating ...
...
But that’s not to say that these views should regularly be given a major platform.
Of course, all religious texts contain some very questionable material. Furthermore, their twisted application has been the cause of one or two wars since they were first presented.

They're allowed to stand these days because presumably they are viewed as ancient and they also form a lot of the Judeo-Christian based laws that are applied at least in the west.

You'll have to excuse me, but even after all that I still haven't determined at which point it is ok to criticise/ridicule and which it isn't.

I've read different interpretations from different people on here on what is allowed and what isn't but I'm pretty sure I can come up with examples to contradict each scenario.

I know I'm coming at this from a theoretical aspect, but that's my point; put simply in the real world we just don't have 'free speech'. There are always go to and no go areas (even within Charlie Hebdo) as much Macron and others claim they're trying to defend the construct of free speech.

Nothing justifies killings or terrorist attacks though. Nothing.

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #105 on: November 1, 2020, 06:36:54 pm »
Of course, all religious texts contain some very questionable material. Furthermore, their twisted application has been the cause of one or two wars since they were first presented.

They're allowed to stand these days because presumably they are viewed as ancient and they also form a lot of the Judeo-Christian based laws that are applied at least in the west.

You'll have to excuse me, but even after all that I still haven't determined at which point it is ok to criticise/ridicule and which it isn't.

I've read different interpretations from different people on here on what is allowed and what isn't but I'm pretty sure I can come up with examples to contradict each scenario.

I know I'm coming at this from a theoretical aspect, but that's my point; put simply in the real world we just don't have 'free speech'. There are always go to and no go areas (even within Charlie Hebdo) as much Macron and others claim they're trying to defend the construct of free speech.

Nothing justifies killings or terrorist attacks though. Nothing.
What no go areas?
Why?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #106 on: November 1, 2020, 06:41:28 pm »
What no go areas?
Why?
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree if you think Charlie Hebdo (or any other publication) has a freedom to criticise ALL aspects of society.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #107 on: November 1, 2020, 06:44:09 pm »
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree if you think Charlie Hebdo (or any other publication) has a freedom to criticise ALL aspects of society.


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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #108 on: November 1, 2020, 06:47:31 pm »
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree if you think Charlie Hebdo (or any other publication) has a freedom to criticise ALL aspects of society.

Perhaps we all agree after all.

No one has the right to incite murder or racial hatred. But all ideas - both religious and profane - are up for grabs. They can be criticised, challenged, ridiculed and mocked.

Right?
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #109 on: November 1, 2020, 06:51:27 pm »
Perhaps we all agree after all.

No one has the right to incite murder or racial hatred. But all ideas - both religious and profane - are up for grabs. They can be criticised, challenged, ridiculed and mocked.

Right?

Exactly
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #110 on: November 1, 2020, 06:57:29 pm »
Hmmm, I guess  :-X ;D

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #111 on: November 1, 2020, 07:00:04 pm »
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #112 on: November 1, 2020, 07:10:11 pm »
Yes, let's screen grab it before I flip my opinion.

I don't think I've spent this long on the forum in one sitting, and as I result I'm famished... off to eat  ;D

Offline WhoHe

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #113 on: November 1, 2020, 07:39:09 pm »
Now we have gone around in circles to come to the conclusion that free speech is vital in a democracy, has anyone got any ideas what to actual do to lessen these attacks ?

It was widely said it would take a generation to beat radical Islam, not a chance, I have kids and I think they will be suffering from this long after I've gone. There seems to be no appetite to actual put forward ideas, just hashtags, or Je Suis something or other and wait for the next atrocity. Utterly depressing.

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #114 on: November 2, 2020, 12:47:13 am »
Even on a slow news day, my general feeling for ALL mainstream religions is one of disgust, hatred and utter contempt. I seldom need a barbaric "headline" to exacerbate that position....but as you may guess....a barbaric headline does very little to stimulate a sense of reflective tolerance where I'm personally concerned.

I simply believe that life is too damn short and precious to waste time trying to parse the differences between the malignant and the benign, when it comes to those who have deep, religious affiliation.....and believe that ANY religion is only as good as it's worst proponents portray it to be, in terms of being a useful social construct worthy of any secular respect.

Just as each person has the right to their religion, then so too, does each person have the right to assess religion as a social construct and decide whether or not it truly brings the best out in people, or whether it merely sates some rather unwholesome, antiquated human biases and failings....which over time....have become consecrated within each religion's unique version of "holy" writ.

As Judge Judy would say..."I'm an ecumenical abuser"....but in my own case, it is religion which unites my sense of fair and equal contempt.

The problem is, detesting "Islam" just as much as I detest Christianity....but then opting to only voice contempt for the former whenever it raises it's ugly head by way of barbarous headlines....well...it kind of puts one in the retaliatory firing line before those who feel the necessity to defend Islam, and it's right to exist as a benign construct for the many millions who follow it.

But I do not believe that it IS a benign religious construct, any more than I believe that the bible has given rise to benign religious constructs and believe ALL of those constructs to be harmful to those who adopt them, and especially so to those who adopt them with a sense of zealousness and militant fervour.

So with each "beheading" or act of atrocity on fundamentally innocent people, religion (as a whole) discloses it's own sickness and unworthiness of respect from folk (like myself) who maintain a secular stance. The burden of proof that religion is not a malignant construct...lays with the "religious" themselves...be they Islam or Christian, but these atrocities do very little to convince any onlooking non-subscribers that religion is a force for good in this world or is even worthy of the tolerance and respect that many moderates bleat on about whenever religion shames itself in such a barbaric manner.

Where are the "not in my name " movements and marches, which by rights....should be provoked by every heinous act which slurs the spirit of what these religions are supposed to represent? Where are the collective denouncements and disavowals of the violent and dysfunctional people who....by their actions....bring shame and bad publicity to the religiously "benign?"

Religious people are notorious for espousing the view that their "god" is watching them and judging them, but there is also another entity who watches and judges them in the form of their fellow men, but they seem to care very little for their collective reputation as seen through the eyes of their secular contemporaries...whom they deem to be nought but faithless infidels or apostates.

And that.... is why religion is such a malignant force.

The "religious" simply do not care how they look, act or come across to the "non-religious."

The religious have gods who tolerate their worst behaviours, sometimes even endorsing and rewarding them for these.

The non-religious do not tolerate their worst behaviours and speak out judgmentally against them as a dysfunctional and dangerous social collective who are a blight on society.

The religious (and others) earnestly defend their "right" to exist as this blight.

The secular resign themselves to tolerance.....but cannot in good conscience....afford such ones any "respect."


 :o
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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #115 on: November 2, 2020, 03:36:37 am »
I wasn't trying to make it one, I just found it depressing that we didn't have a single post about her. Surely these things are worthy of equal outrage!

So instead of posting about her you decided to rage at everyone else for not posting about her.


Offline RedGuy

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #116 on: November 2, 2020, 09:40:40 am »
As someone who lives in a relatively religious country, I absolutely hate religion and think they all should be mocked, but that's my opinion and I know it's childish. Some religions are more fanatic, I don't know why some people have a problem with that notion, it's quite clear. I wish everyone would just believe in their god privately at their homes without bothering anyone else, the world would be a better place.
Christianity in my mind is the least "problematic" in modern times, funnily enough (I'm "Jewish", I guess).

Rant over, sorry

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #117 on: November 2, 2020, 10:58:30 am »
It took a long time for Christianity to be rendered inert and for it to be defused by western society. At its darkest influential peak, it was horrendously out of control and its clerics authored and sanctioned great miseries and repressive acts upon any who pushed back against them.

Islam however, has not undergone the same kind of cultural and cerebral pushback in its own lands of origin, and that's why it highly fancies its chances in being able to successfully migrate into the west and establish itself as cultural "force" wherever it establishes communities and gains a foothold in western populations.

Islam re-introduces antiquated religious oppressions into lands that have already waged that war with one set of clerics (Christian) and that is why it feels like such an incompatible and intrusive mind-set within the west's more progressive nation states. There's no way the west defeated Christianity's worst manifestations...only to have ANOTHER variant of religious extremism imported into its lands, society and culture to re-occupy that space.

It's not a racial issue, or even a "migrant" issue....but moreso an issue of cultural values, freedoms and the need to maintain secular governance which cannot be swayed or subsumed by religious outreach.

As  I said....that battle has already been won once.

Do we really have to have it again....and do our "tolerances" really have to be extended to the point where that second battle becomes inevitable, given what might occur if there is no pushback whatsoever?


YNWA

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #118 on: November 2, 2020, 01:24:42 pm »
Every opinion is open for discussion, contest and ..yes, ridicule.

Are gender issues up for ridicule?
"Gender" is a manmade idea, do you think it should be within scope for this ridicule?

TTK is right in that free speech is a fallacy, clearly some things are off limits

Offline stewil007

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Re: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.
« Reply #119 on: November 2, 2020, 02:20:49 pm »
Are gender issues up for ridicule?
"Gender" is a manmade idea, do you think it should be within scope for this ridicule?

TTK is right in that free speech is a fallacy, clearly some things are off limits

when you boil everything down, everything is a manmade idea isn't it?