Author Topic: A change in Venezuela?  (Read 49003 times)

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #280 on: January 29, 2019, 12:38:18 pm »
Strong analysis ;D
truth tho, pretty sure he’s done stuff for that bastion of impartiality RT, plus he’s had Abby ‘everything is fine’ Martin on his show when I once watched it on YouTube

Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #281 on: January 29, 2019, 01:02:24 pm »
Power is one thing Corbyn and his gang never had. The thread was derailed as soon as Corbyn was mentioned. Corbyn didn't bring Maduro to power, he can't keep him in power, and, even if he wanted to, he can't remove him from power. Discussing Corbyn (not to mention Livingstone and Williamson) in a Venezuela thread trivialises the suffering of the Venezuelan people. But I guess if cheap points can be scored on the internet, the Venezuelans have served their purpose. Corbyn is a political nobody who, in his 70 odd years on this planet, has never done anything of note, let alone of consequence. Yet look around here, and it seems he's to blame for everything wrong with the world today. The Brexit thread (where he certainly deserves a mention) is more about Corbyn than about the government. Novichok - Corbyn's fault. Syria, Israel, Palestine - all about Corbyn. Even on the Holocaust Memorial thread it took just a few posts until someone brought up the Labour Party. The Tory Party thread had to be locked because everyone kept talking about Corbyn. He even gets regular mentions in the Trump thread. I haven't ventured into the climate change thread in a while, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone was blaming him for that, too.

It's tiring, it's boring, and it ignores the real issues. Ironically, it seems Corbyn's staunchest opponents, much like Corbynistas, are giving him much more credit than he deserves. Meanwhile, most of the world is run by regimes ranging from the far right to outright fascist, so perhaps it's time we stopped, to borrow a phrase, pissing in the wind, and started talking about those truly responsible for the mess we're in. Or, at the very least, about Venezuela.

If Corbyn, Livingston, McDonnell, Burgon, Abbott and the rest would keep their noses out of Venezuela and not propose Chavista economics as a model to be copied they wouldn’t get a mention. Corbyn chose to associate himself with Chavez. No one forced him.

You do highlight an interesting point - for a man lauded as ‘always on the right side of history’ he’s having a bit of a mare. Venezuela, Brexit, the 2017 election (he lost by the way), anti-semitism... he’s criticised in many places because he’s fucking up in many places.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #282 on: January 29, 2019, 01:11:48 pm »
How accurate is this analysis?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/VMplqEpfGhs&amp;t=" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/VMplqEpfGhs&amp;t=</a>

Err...  gave it two minutes where he used the orange moron as the starting point of his argument. What’s the point of that? Trump is a fucking idiot who shits mental ideas out of his mouth that have no basis in reality.

It’s like saying American border security is going to be solved by Mexico paying for a wall. It isn’t and the only person who thinks it should be is incapable of making it happen.

Watched a bit more but it didn’t get any better. Abby Martin is very articulate but is an RT stooge. I think the bit that summed it up was when he was whatabouting and justifying Putin murdering journalists by Obama’s ‘torture’ of Chelsea Manning. He then said that the worst person in the world is whoever is US President. That’s the world view in one - Assad can gas and barrel bomb his own people, Putin can invade the Ukraine and murder journalists and opponents who expose his corruption, Putin can use nerve agents on UK soil, dictators everywhere can murder thousands but the number one villain is always the US.

It’s simplistic nonsense.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 01:37:05 pm by Alan_X »
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Offline johnybarnes

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #283 on: January 29, 2019, 02:22:28 pm »
truth tho, pretty sure he’s done stuff for that bastion of impartiality RT, plus he’s had Abby ‘everything is fine’ Martin on his show when I once watched it on YouTube

Abby Martin did emphasise that the situation is awful but highlighted how the media is only reporting one side.


Watched a bit more but it didn’t get any better. Abby Martin is very articulate but is an RT stooge. I think the bit that summed it up was when he was whatabouting and justifying Putin murdering journalists by Obama’s ‘torture’ of Chelsea Manning. He then said that the worst person in the world is whoever is US President. That’s the world view in one - Assad can gas and barrel bomb his own people, Putin can invade the Ukraine and murder journalists and opponents who expose his corruption, Putin can use nerve agents on UK soil, dictators everywhere can murder thousands but the number one villain is always the US. 

I believe they are articulating American exceptionalism/double standards when it comes to judging other countries – who are we to be the moral arbitrators considering our actions? Meddling/bombing resource rich countries under the guise of humanitarian intervention/being the good guys gets a bit tiresome. I don’t want to derail this thread but there has never been any concrete evidence that Assad used gas – rather convenient that he apparently used it when he was winning the war. Drone striking a villages wedding gets brushed under the carpet but quick, there is a crazy despot who happens to control large amounts of resources that needs to be removed for the good of humanity!   

Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #284 on: January 29, 2019, 03:57:19 pm »
Abby Martin did emphasise that the situation is awful but highlighted how the media is only reporting one side.

I believe they are articulating American exceptionalism/double standards when it comes to judging other countries – who are we to be the moral arbitrators considering our actions? Meddling/bombing resource rich countries under the guise of humanitarian intervention/being the good guys gets a bit tiresome. I don’t want to derail this thread but there has never been any concrete evidence that Assad used gas – rather convenient that he apparently used it when he was winning the war. Drone striking a villages wedding gets brushed under the carpet but quick, there is a crazy despot who happens to control large amounts of resources that needs to be removed for the good of humanity!   


There's as little doubt about Assad using chemical weapons on hos people as there is about Putin using nerve agents in Salisbury or polonium on Litvinenko.

From Wiki:

The use of chemical weapons in the Syrian Civil War[1] has been confirmed by the United Nations.[2] Deadly attacks during the war included the Ghouta attack in the suburbs of Damascus in August 2013 and the Khan al-Assal attack in the suburbs of Aleppo in March 2013. While no party took responsibility for the chemical attacks, the Syrian Ba'athist military was seen as the main suspect, due to a large arsenal of such weapons. A U.N. fact-finding mission and a UNHRC Commission of Inquiry have simultaneously investigated the attacks. The U.N. mission found the likely use of the nerve agent sarin in the case of Khan al-Assal (19 March 2013), Saraqib (29 April 2013), Ghouta (21 August 2013), Jobar (24 August 2013) and Ashrafiyat Sahnaya (25 August 2013). The UNHRC commission later confirmed the use of sarin in the Khan al-Asal, Saraqib and Ghouta attacks, but did not mention the Jobar and the Ashrafiyat Sahnaya attacks. The UNHRC commission also found that the sarin used in the Khan al-Asal attack bore "the same unique hallmarks" as the sarin used in the Ghouta attack and indicated that the perpetrators likely had access to chemicals from the Syrian Army's stockpile. Those attacks prompted the international community to pressure disarmament of the Syrian Armed Forces from chemical weapons, which was executed during 2014. Despite the disarmament process, dozens of incidents with suspected use of chemical weapons followed throughout Syria, mainly blamed on Syrian Ba'athist forces, as well as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and on Syrian opposition forces and Turkish Armed Forces.[3] There have been a number of evidence-gathering processes developed at the international level

In August 2016, a report[2] by the United Nations and the OPCW explicitly blamed the Syrian military of Bashar al-Assad for dropping chemical weapons (chlorine bombs) on the towns of Talmenes in April 2014 and Sarmin in March 2015 and ISIS for using sulfur mustard on the town of Marea in August 2015.[4] Several other attacks have been alleged, reported and/or investigated.

In December 2016, at least 53 people were killed in an apparent nerve gas attack in ISIS-held villages near Uqairabat, marking the first major nerve gas attack since the 2013 accord.[5][6] The Khan Shaykhun chemical attack on 4 April 2017 drew international condemnation and resulted in U.S. military action against the Syrian government-controlled airbase at Shayrat. The Douma chemical attack on 7 April 2018 also drew a military response from the United States, United Kingdom and France. In June 2018 the OPCW FFM confirmed sarin use in Latamenah while investigating 25 March 2017 chlorine attack. Hexamine was detected with samples, along with HFP, which the OPCW-UN JIM has previously described as being one of the key indicators that the sarin used in Khan Sheikhoun came from the Syrian governments sarin process.


Of course it's possible that someone made up sarin and mustard gas that exactly matched the Syrian Army's sarin and mustard gas and then dropped it on Assad's opponents just to make the poor man look bad. 
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Offline johnybarnes

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #285 on: January 29, 2019, 05:26:31 pm »
As I said – I don’t want to derail this thread. The witness testimony, epidemiological analysis and environmental samples can all be questioned. The OPCW was never in Latamenah and said sample was provided via an ‘unnamed volunteer’. Chemical weapons may have been used – who knows. Drones = good, Gas = bad and must be met with ‘precision bombing’ that will not kill any civilians.

Anyway, to get us back on track…



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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #286 on: January 29, 2019, 05:35:24 pm »
The witness testimony, epidemiological analysis and environmental samples can all be questioned.

If you have an agenda to peddle, yes...
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #287 on: January 29, 2019, 05:37:24 pm »
Bin Laden was quite the fan of William Blum btw

Ukraine though, wasn’t that after Putin invaded? And some of those to be fair are justified (Yugoslavia, despite what many on the left believe), some executed terribly (Iraq 2 being the main one) and some just plain disasters (Chile)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 05:40:28 pm by Lush is the best medicine... »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #288 on: January 29, 2019, 05:53:21 pm »
Bin Laden was quite the fan of William Blum btw

Ukraine though, wasn’t that after Putin invaded?

Get with the programme. Russia is allowed to invade other countries - they're a great set of lads. That's why the "attempted overthrow" of East Germany is in there and Afghanistan in the 1980s.

I am well aware of the United States dismal record of regime change over the years and there's no justification for a lot of it but the idea that resisting the Russian subjugation of half of Germany was an attempt to overthrow a legitimate government is laughable.  By that argument Germany 1941-45 should be on the list.
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Offline johnybarnes

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #289 on: January 29, 2019, 05:54:41 pm »
Bin Laden was quite the fan of William Blum btw

The CIA used to be quite a fan of Bin Laden.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #290 on: January 29, 2019, 06:00:50 pm »
I've deleted the John Perkins reference. Let's not go down that route. It didn't end well.
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Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #291 on: January 29, 2019, 06:01:12 pm »
The CIA used to be quite a fan of Bin Laden.
because he was fighting the Russians (ie their enemy)

Offline johnybarnes

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #292 on: January 29, 2019, 06:10:04 pm »
because he was fighting the Russians (ie their enemy)

You mean they've funded 'rebels' or 'opposition' in the past and its ended up backfiring? Its almost as if they're quite shortsighted in their imperialistic goals.

I'm shocked.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #293 on: January 29, 2019, 07:04:36 pm »

Anyway, to get us back on track…




Syria 2012? I wish.

And France 1965 is a good 'un.

As for East Germany 1950s you probably mean the 1953 workers' uprising against their Russian overlords.  I mean, Jesus.

You should think more critically about your sources. These kind of hand-me-down charts are usually bullshit peddled by bullshit merchants. They turn your mind to bullshit in the long run.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 07:06:46 pm by Yorkykopite »
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Offline johnybarnes

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #294 on: January 29, 2019, 07:48:16 pm »
Syria 2012? I wish.

And France 1965 is a good 'un.

As for East Germany 1950s you probably mean the 1953 workers' uprising against their Russian overlords.  I mean, Jesus.

You should think more critically about your sources. These kind of hand-me-down charts are usually bullshit peddled by bullshit merchants. They turn your mind to bullshit in the long run.

You may dispute some selections in the list - sure there are some weaker examples but please name another country that has meddled more with other countries affairs in recent history and then has the gall to complain about Russian troll farms spending $4,700 in google adverts in the 2016 election.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #295 on: January 29, 2019, 08:02:30 pm »
You may dispute some selections in the list - sure there are some weaker examples but please name another country that has meddled more with other countries affairs in recent history and then has the gall to complain about Russian troll farms spending $4,700 in google adverts in the 2016 election.
How recent we talkin'?

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #296 on: January 29, 2019, 08:14:17 pm »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #297 on: January 29, 2019, 08:22:25 pm »
You may dispute some selections in the list - sure there are some weaker examples but please name another country that has meddled more with other countries affairs in recent history and then has the gall to complain about Russian troll farms spending $4,700 in google adverts in the 2016 election.

Russia. China.

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #298 on: January 29, 2019, 08:29:34 pm »
You may dispute some selections in the list - sure there are some weaker examples but please name another country that has meddled more with other countries affairs in recent history and then has the gall to complain about Russian troll farms spending $4,700 in google adverts in the 2016 election.

Where'd you get that figure from? RT?

https://www.rt.com/usa/446381-google-4700-russian-collusion/

Hmm... RT (Russia Today), the Russian funded propaganda 'TV station' reports that there was no Russian collusion. I'm convinced.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #299 on: January 29, 2019, 08:36:09 pm »

Offline johnybarnes

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #300 on: January 29, 2019, 08:50:08 pm »
Where'd you get that figure from? RT?

https://www.rt.com/usa/446381-google-4700-russian-collusion/

Hmm... RT (Russia Today), the Russian funded propaganda 'TV station' reports that there was no Russian collusion. I'm convinced.

No - I got it direct from the CEO of Google in his testimony to congress. Pretty sure he would be well informed on the matter.

He could be working for the Kremlin though.


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/fELg3ws7aj4&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/fELg3ws7aj4&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>


Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #301 on: January 29, 2019, 08:54:33 pm »
You may dispute some selections in the list - sure there are some weaker examples but please name another country that has meddled more with other countries affairs in recent history and then has the gall to complain about Russian troll farms spending $4,700 in google adverts in the 2016 election.

The Google platform was barely used, it was not effective.

But you missed out the over $100,000 (that's what so far has been detected) paid for by IRA for Facebook ads.

Russian Influence Reached 126 Million Through Facebook Alone

Facebook disclosed on Wednesday that it had identified more than $100,000 worth of divisive ads on hot-button issues purchased by a shadowy Russian company linked to the Kremlin.

Most of the 3,000 ads did not refer to particular candidates but instead focused on divisive social issues such as race, gay rights, gun control and immigration, according to a post on Facebook by Alex Stamos, the company’s chief security officer. The ads, which ran between June 2015 and May 2017, were linked to some 470 fake accounts and pages the company said it had shut down.

Facebook officials said the fake accounts were created by a Russian company called the Internet Research Agency, which is known for using “troll” accounts to post on social media and comment on news websites.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/06/technology/facebook-russian-political-ads.html?module=inline

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #302 on: January 29, 2019, 09:01:27 pm »
No - I got it direct from the CEO of Google in his testimony to congress. Pretty sure he would be well informed on the matter.

He could be working for the Kremlin though.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/fELg3ws7aj4&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/fELg3ws7aj4&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>

That is advertising spending. What about the millions of Facebook posts and fake Facebook Profiles? The release of emails stolen by Russian hackers through Wikileaks, Russian funding of the NRA, years of Russian corruption in New York... and so on.
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Offline johnybarnes

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #303 on: January 29, 2019, 09:33:54 pm »
100k in advertising, some of which lasted beyond the election into 2017 verses Clinton’s what, $700 million campaign? That must have really swayed the election, how dare these Russian trolls post memes whilst we pick and choose countries leaders that suit our interests.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #304 on: January 29, 2019, 09:40:08 pm »
100k in advertising, some of which lasted beyond the election into 2017 verses Clinton’s what, $700 million campaign? That must have really swayed the election, how dare these Russian trolls post memes whilst we pick and choose countries leaders that suit our interests.

No offence mate but you're either willfully ignoring the modern world or you simply don't understand it. You don't need to send in 'military advisors' or loads of arms to effectively take control of or de-stabilise a country.

Donald Trump has been acting in Putin's interest consistently since he took office two years ago. It might be complete coincidence of course.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #305 on: January 29, 2019, 10:03:02 pm »
100k in advertising, some of which lasted beyond the election into 2017 verses Clinton’s what, $700 million campaign? That must have really swayed the election, how dare these Russian trolls post memes whilst we pick and choose countries leaders that suit our interests.

You seem to have a poor grasp of what's happened.

You should not compare the figures like for like.

Clintons $700m would be made up of the costs for prime time TV slots, Billboards, Radio Ads, Expensive marketing organisations etc.

The IRA costs identified are just what they paid Facebook for the ad slots.

They do not include how much the Russian State pays to keep the IRA Trolls and its teams of jokers and any other players involved up and running.

And it was a different marketing approach, viral as opposed to mainstream, and very effective it would seem.

The current battleground is Twitter, quite how many accounts are what they seem is debatable, and to an increasing amount, the battleground is smaller social media sites and newpaper and TV comments sections.

It's all about inserting an element uncertainty, an attempt at making people distrust any news in order to then enable lies and half truths to gain traction in societies amongst the more gullible and those that feel disenfranchised in the modern world.

The Russian State has been doing it to their own people for years, it's just they have now broadened their horizons and all media is a target in this game.

I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline johnybarnes

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #306 on: January 29, 2019, 10:58:18 pm »
No offence mate but you're either willfully ignoring the modern world or you simply don't understand it.

You seem to have a poor grasp of what's happened.

Please enlighten me.

Clinton and Trump spent $81 million on pre-election day Facebook ads compared to $46k the IRA spent which equates to 0.05% - what exactly are you claiming this yielded?

Are you suggesting memes swayed the election to Trump?

I was under the impression 8 years of Obama and failed neoliberal policies that lead to no substantial change in living standards was a more significant factor but perhaps it was the troll farms.

Clinton embarrassingly lost to a gameshow TV host who spent far less than her, it’s almost as if that by consistently claiming Russia seriously influenced the election you get to absolve yourself of any responsibility for such a devastating loss and go through no period of self-reflection.  Rather ironic when you consider the actual rigging occurred at the DNC primaries.
 
The media in America love a Russia story – it generates a lot of ad revenue. The problem is half of the claims turn out to be shite and you rarely see the retraction, here is a collection of just 10 but there are a lot more:

https://theintercept.com/2019/01/20/beyond-buzzfeed-the-10-worst-most-embarrassing-u-s-media-failures-on-the-trumprussia-story/

Offline Conocinico

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #307 on: January 30, 2019, 02:31:56 am »
Donald Trump has been acting in Putin's interest consistently since he took office two years ago. It might be complete coincidence of course.

I don't get this narrative.

These actions aren't consistent with Putin's interests:

Placing sanctions on Putin's inner-circle, other government officials and some of Russia's wealthiest oligarchs; targeting Russia's energy and defence industries. The expulsion of 60 Russian diplomats and the closing of the Seattle and San Francisco Russian consulates; cutting off Russian intelligence to the US tech industry and removing their presence from the whole of the west coast. Supplying arms to the Ukraine military. Reneging on the Iran deal. Putting pressure on NATO members, resulting in $100 billion more in defence spending. Recognising Guaido as the interim president of Venezuela.
This sentence is not provable

Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #308 on: January 30, 2019, 08:08:53 am »
I don't get this narrative.

These actions aren't consistent with Putin's interests:

Placing sanctions on Putin's inner-circle, other government officials and some of Russia's wealthiest oligarchs; targeting Russia's energy and defence industries. The expulsion of 60 Russian diplomats and the closing of the Seattle and San Francisco Russian consulates; cutting off Russian intelligence to the US tech industry and removing their presence from the whole of the west coast. Supplying arms to the Ukraine military. Reneging on the Iran deal. Putting pressure on NATO members, resulting in $100 billion more in defence spending. Recognising Guaido as the interim president of Venezuela.

Sounds like Fox News reporting. Selective and delayed sanctions and removing diplomats is mere window dressing in the grand scheme on things, plus certain sanctions enforced by the FBI in the Russian probe were independent of the President. He put sanctions on Iran which sent the price of oil soaring and the NATO spending increase is more or less in line with yearly spending increases from 2016.

He’s attacked NATO more than aided it, consistently attacked the EU, support for authoriarians around the world, pulling out of Paris climate accord, starting trade wars with Allies, zero action in response to the election cyber-criminality, disputed and contradicted his administrations line on Crimea, he latest Oleg Deripaska scandal and lifting sanctions on those close to Putin. Putin’s key goals have all been aided nicely by Trump.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-47023004

I’m shocked that after dozens of arrests, indictments of various Trump allies and numerous Russians due to election criminality, perjury and various financial crimes due to the Mueller probe, some people are still denying what’s staring them in the face..
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 08:25:18 am by OneTouchFooty »

Offline Conocinico

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #309 on: January 30, 2019, 08:51:05 am »
Sounds like Fox News reporting. Selective sanctions and removing diplomats is mere window dressing in the grand scheme on things, plus sanctions enforced by the FBI are independent of the President. He put sanctions on Iran which sent the price of oil soaring and the NATO spending increase is more or less in line with yearly spending increases from 2016. He’s attacked NATO more than aided it, consistently attacked the EU, support for authoriarians around the world, pulling out of Paris climate accord, starting trade wars with Allies, the latest Oleg Deripaska scandal and lifting sanctions on those close to Putin. Putin’s key goals have all been aided nicely by Trump.

 https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-47023004

Sure, there are actions the US has taken which have aligned with Russian interests but times where they've conflicted with Russian interests. Hardly surprising. You have to tie yourself up in knots to keep your narrative alive. Sanctions are window dressing, unless he lifts sanctions, in which case it's a big deal. Putin supported Iranian sanctions because of the oil price. He also must secretly back Venezuelan sanctions too, I guess. With the lesson being: never become a strategic partner of Russia. The NATO secretary-general credited Trump for his role in the increase in spending, but he was just blowing smoke up his arse. Etc, etc.

Not for me.
This sentence is not provable

Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #310 on: January 30, 2019, 08:54:18 am »
I don't get this narrative.

These actions aren't consistent with Putin's interests:

Placing sanctions on Putin's inner-circle, other government officials and some of Russia's wealthiest oligarchs; targeting Russia's energy and defence industries. The expulsion of 60 Russian diplomats and the closing of the Seattle and San Francisco Russian consulates; cutting off Russian intelligence to the US tech industry and removing their presence from the whole of the west coast. Supplying arms to the Ukraine military. Reneging on the Iran deal. Putting pressure on NATO members, resulting in $100 billion more in defence spending. Recognising Guaido as the interim president of Venezuela.

Bent cops still make arrests.

And some of those were done by the US in spite of Trump not because of Trump.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #311 on: January 30, 2019, 09:14:21 am »
Bent cops still make arrests.

And some of those were done by the US in spite of Trump not because of Trump.

It's a bulletproof narrative. All instances of US actions that conflict with Russian interests is consigned to mere optics, and all US actions that align with Russian interests is proof of the conspiracy.
This sentence is not provable

Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #312 on: January 30, 2019, 09:44:48 am »
It's a bulletproof narrative. All instances of US actions that conflict with Russian interests is consigned to mere optics, and all US actions that align with Russian interests is proof of the conspiracy.

The Mueller investigation that has produced dozens of indictments and arrests of Trump’s closest allies and dozens of Russians must be a coincidence too. The notion because some of the US actions have conflicted with Russia means the investigation is some sort of stitch up is an odd stance to take. The overwhelmingly evidence that is mounting up against him can’t be ignored unless you’re deliberately burying your head in the sand.

Offline gemofabird

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #313 on: January 30, 2019, 10:15:26 am »
Syria 2012? I wish.

And France 1965 is a good 'un.

As for East Germany 1950s you probably mean the 1953 workers' uprising against their Russian overlords.  I mean, Jesus.

You should think more critically about your sources. These kind of hand-me-down charts are usually bullshit peddled by bullshit merchants. They turn your mind to bullshit in the long run.
Haha, are you serious? So just ignore the countless other countries on the list to suit your "bullshit" narrative.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #314 on: January 30, 2019, 11:29:30 am »
Haha, are you serious? So just ignore the countless other countries on the list to suit your "bullshit" narrative.

I don’t have a ‘narrative’. My mind is more supple than that. Naturally I have issues with several other names on that list - Jamaica, Bulgaria, Albania etc etc - but I’m not going to engage in any depth because, after all, it’s just a bullshit list (with the emphasis on list). There’s nothing serious about it.

I deplore US ‘involvement’ in countries where it has happened, on the whole. I make exceptions to such heroic efforts as Germany, Italy and Japan 1942-45 (why no mention?), and such necessary ones as Yugoslavia (I think the author meant Bosnia and Kosovo!) and Afghanistan more recently. But that’s how my mind works. It allows contradictions and exceptions and isn’t blindly pro or anti American.

I know one thing though. Russia has been much more meddlesome and outright imperialist since 1945. Not just under Stalin, Kruschchev and Brezhnev, but under Putin too. And the fact that the bullshit list includes Ukraine simply demonstrates that the writer is hopelessly prejudiced and that the list might even be a Russian bot.
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Offline 24/7

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #315 on: January 30, 2019, 12:36:35 pm »
Of the last 40 or so posts only a handful deal with the reality of the situation today. The rest consist largely of willy waving and /or intellectual masturbation. It's fucking boring. Stay on topic.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #316 on: January 30, 2019, 12:44:16 pm »
Of the last 40 or so posts only a handful deal with the reality of the situation today. The rest consist largely of willy waving and /or intellectual masturbation. It's fucking boring. Stay on topic.

'Venezuela' of course is bigger than Venezuela. That's why it is interesting to the world over and above what is happening within Venezuela itself, as tragic as that is (as many of us have been arguing long before this thread began). For better or worse Venezuela has become a symbol of 'socialism', 'an alternative to neoliberalism', 'standing up to the Yankee' etc. It's no surprise now that these questions are being revisited and scrutinised.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #317 on: January 30, 2019, 12:51:52 pm »
Not sure why we are playing top trumps in here the world would have been a better place if the two so called superpowers didnt meddle so much with the stability of other countries, both as bad as each other as far as i am concerned.

Always when Russia, the US do interfere the biggest casualties are always the ordinary citizens which brings me back to the topic, its clear this bastard in charge has to go, the problem though is do we want someone who may for all we know end up leading another US puppet regime? 

I would certainly rather a body like the UN stepped up to help rather than Trump and his gang. ( i do however concede the Russians would possibly veto UN involvement but they need to give it a go.)

The only losers right now are the citizens yet again,
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Offline classycarra

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #318 on: January 30, 2019, 01:26:51 pm »
Of the last 40 or so posts only a handful deal with the reality of the situation today. The rest consist largely of willy waving and /or intellectual masturbation. It's fucking boring. Stay on topic.

Back on topic, here's a good speech from a Labour MP (committee chair on Arms Export Control) on the situation in Venezuela. It's from a position of a shared cause with the opposition party.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2019-01-29a.347.0#g349.1

I hope the link works ok for you. It links from Hansard

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #319 on: January 30, 2019, 03:17:06 pm »
Back on topic, here's a good speech from a Labour MP (committee chair on Arms Export Control) on the situation in Venezuela. It's from a position of a shared cause with the opposition party.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2019-01-29a.347.0#g349.1

I hope the link works ok for you. It links from Hansard

That's very good - and it's welcome to hear a Labour MP say it.

Among other things he points to Chavez's daughter who is now said to worth $4.2 billion - which, if true, would make her the richest individual in Venezuela, a country which as we know has a large percentage of the population now hungry.

Now it could just be coincidence that Chavez's daughter is so wealthy or it might have something to do with larceny on an epic scale. My guess would be larceny. If that is so the Chavez regime is no better than those other dictatorships (many in Africa) which siphon off state earnings into private bank accounts. It beats me why anyone, right or left, would wish to defend such a regime.
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