Author Topic: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism  (Read 37944 times)

Offline Redinho

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #400 on: November 18, 2015, 12:25:00 am »
Candle light vigils, French flags and all that are great, but if they don't lead to action then they are useless.

This situation requires action, people act like this is new or shocking.  These Islamic terrorists have been out there for a long time and they aren't going away by everyone sitting around holding hands, and if that sounds harsh it's just reality.

Action is what's required.

Offline gamble

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #401 on: November 18, 2015, 12:36:31 am »
It's a sura from the Koran.

Not true: http://www.loonwatch.com/2013/01/are-jews-apes-and-pigs/

Unlucky, try again though to use a terrorist atrocity to demonise a whole religion and its followers you opportunitistic twat

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #402 on: November 18, 2015, 12:59:58 am »
it talks of Jews as "people of the book" in one verse, and as descendants of pigs and monkeys in another.

Please don't make up stuff. I did read Quran and there is no such thing. I will be happy if you can provide the exact verse,sora or hadith that is.

Offline stevensr123

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #403 on: November 18, 2015, 01:50:13 am »
The problem with any book or scripture, is that you can take the words and interpret it differently. You can say the  Quran didn't call all jews pigs, but obviously some Muslims do think it did:

"For example, in a weekly sermon in April 2002, Al-Azhar Sheikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the highest-ranking cleric in the Sunni Muslim world, called the Jews "the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs."[1]

In one of his sermons, Saudi sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, imam and preacher at the Al-Haraam mosque – the most important mosque in Mecca – beseeched Allah to annihilate the Jews. He also urged the Arabs to give up peace initiatives with them because they are "the scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs."


Obliviously these people are twats.

 
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Offline Redinho

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #404 on: November 18, 2015, 03:08:11 am »
Turkish fans booed the moment of silence, not surprising really, Muslim moderates, the religion of peace and all that.

Oh and chanted Allahu Akbar during as well very nice of them.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 03:11:51 am by Redinho »

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #405 on: November 18, 2015, 03:12:58 am »
Turkish fans booed the moment of silence, not surprising really, Muslim moderates, the religion of peace and all that.

Not surprising really. I've been to a few matches in Istanbul and the regular Turkish match-goers are absolute barbarians (not in any way categorizing Turkish people).

Offline The North Bank

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #406 on: November 18, 2015, 04:40:36 am »
Turkish fans booed the moment of silence, not surprising really, Muslim moderates, the religion of peace and all that.

Oh and chanted Allahu Akbar during as well very nice of them.

Didn't they get bombed too, or is that why they booed, no one held a minute silence around Europe when Isis killed 100 Turks a couple of weeks back. They still shouldn't have booed, but I see why this may have been an issue for them.
Imagine if 100 Brits died in an Isis attack and no one held minute silences, then when 100 Turks die the announcer at Wembley said give us a minute silence please, guess what you'll get, booing.
Not enough people see all sides of the story, but you could be right, they may have booed because turkish fans are Muslim so naturally they're declaring war on us, everyone is free to their interpretation, based on their capacity to understand.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 04:43:04 am by The North Bank »

Offline Euskadi

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #407 on: November 18, 2015, 04:45:35 am »
The problem with any book or scripture, is that you can take the words and interpret it differently. You can say the  Quran didn't call all jews pigs, but obviously some Muslims do think it did:

"For example, in a weekly sermon in April 2002, Al-Azhar Sheikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the highest-ranking cleric in the Sunni Muslim world, called the Jews "the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs."[1]

In one of his sermons, Saudi sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, imam and preacher at the Al-Haraam mosque – the most important mosque in Mecca – beseeched Allah to annihilate the Jews. He also urged the Arabs to give up peace initiatives with them because they are "the scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs."


Obliviously these people are twats.

Mad because even in the Qu'ran the Jews are God's chosen people. Makes me sick to read the above.
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Offline The North Bank

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #408 on: November 18, 2015, 04:59:55 am »
Mad because even in the Qu'ran the Jews are God's chosen people. Makes me sick to read the above.

Again we see quotes and we don't see the context. If this self proclaimed grand master of Islam wakes up to see images on the Internet of Palestinian babies riddled with Israeli bullets he's going to lose the plot and call all jews pigs, which is the biggest insult you can call someone in Islam, for obvious reasons.
In the same way people here wake up to images of Muslims shooting innocent people in Paris and say all Muslims are blood thirsty savages. Someone at Isis can easily take these quotes alone and show their impressionable people  "this is what they think of you". Human beings are very impressionable, and over there they don't have an alternative point of view, far easier to play on their fears.

Offline shanklygirl

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #409 on: November 18, 2015, 06:27:33 am »
Not true: http://www.loonwatch.com/2013/01/are-jews-apes-and-pigs/

Unlucky, try again though to use a terrorist atrocity to demonise a whole religion and its followers you opportunitistic twat

It is from the quran, but of course is open to interpretation.

Many interpret it in an anti semitic way...

Offline Magix

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #410 on: November 18, 2015, 06:44:55 am »
There are verses that exalt the Jews and there are verses that excoriate them.  The real context here is that it means the message can be manipulated as deem fit.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #411 on: November 18, 2015, 09:34:10 am »
Not sure which thread to post this in (which is sad that there are so many due to the atrocities being carried out), another bomb attack in Nigeria by Boko Haram:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/17/heavy-casualties-feared-after-nigerian-explosion

At least 32 people were killed and 80 injured and seemingly targeting people leaving the local mosque after evening prayers (obviously the wrong type of Muslim, were teaching western education there, or some other shitty excuse). To put this into perspective of the current global threat: 

"Boko Haram was named in the latest Global Terrorism Index as “the most deadly terrorist group in the world” on Tuesday, having killed 6,644 people last year."

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #412 on: November 18, 2015, 09:37:51 am »
Not sure what the answer is, I know bombing won't defeat Isis, at the same time I'm uncomfortable at seeing our troops on the ground, the losses would be massive.
Might be a selfish point of view but I'd like us to take a back seat for once, offer logistical support and intelligence and help enable others do the dirty work. I don't think our contribution is critical, if anything, there seems to be too many parties involved already.

Incidentally , I was out tonight and decided to pass by Wembley on the way home, the arch with the tricolour looks stunning.



I loved the Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite sign. Perfect.

On the main point, I'd have thought that the wider the 'coalition' the better.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #413 on: November 18, 2015, 09:43:43 am »
Not sure which thread to post this in (which is sad that there are so many due to the atrocities being carried out), another bomb attack in Nigeria by Boko Haram:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/17/heavy-casualties-feared-after-nigerian-explosion

At least 32 people were killed and 80 injured and seemingly targeting people leaving the local mosque after evening prayers (obviously the wrong type of Muslim, were teaching western education there, or some other shitty excuse). To put this into perspective of the current global threat: 

"Boko Haram was named in the latest Global Terrorism Index as “the most deadly terrorist group in the world” on Tuesday, having killed 6,644 people last year."

Boko Haram is deadly for the same reasons as IS are. They are just as fanatical about their religion, they operate in a multi-faith country and the people in Nigeria, given the corruption and ineptitude of their government, have very few ways of protecting themselves.

RIP.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #414 on: November 18, 2015, 10:00:36 am »
Also pledged allegiance to Islamic State haven't they? Which says it all really. Another group which needs eradicating.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #415 on: November 18, 2015, 10:12:09 am »
Not true: http://www.loonwatch.com/2013/01/are-jews-apes-and-pigs/

Unlucky, try again though to use a terrorist atrocity to demonise a whole religion and its followers you opportunitistic twat

I didn't (you angry person). The point I was making is an excellent one about the need for Muslims to stop treating the Koran as some kind of manual for state-building today, in the 21st century. Why? Because it is deeply contradictory and not 'fit for purpose'.

Here's what I wrote:

I didn't say they are "true Muslims" steven. It's impossible to say with any confidence who "true Muslims" are. The Koran, after all, is a real old rag bag of contradictions. It provides a message of peace one minute, and a message of all-out war against the infidel next; it talks of Jews as "people of the book" in one verse, and as descendants of pigs and monkeys in another.

But that's the whole point. It's a crazy document on which to base a coherent view of life, let alone a legal system, as some Muslims (including IS) want. But so long as Muslims world-wide believe all their solutions are contained within its covers, groups like IS will have tremendous prestige. Because, there's no question about it, they do know their scripture and they do spend an awful lot of time citing it.

That sparked a mini-debate about if - and where - the Koran said that. So, the 'offending' sura is 2:65. Here it is in context, according to one translation (from Islamic Foundation UK) http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2&verse=65&to=66.

Some will say that it's not clear. Perhaps not. But it's certainly open to the interpretation that Jews were turned into apes. I think you wouldn't disagree on that. And (my original point) there are hundreds, probably thousands, of Muslim scholars and preachers who do talk, to this very day, of Jews as descendants of apes and dogs. The former president of Egypt, Morsi, infamously did so. But he's just one of many. It would be too tedious to link to their recorded comments. They are legion. And, naturally, they all cite Koranic authority when they make these claims.

That's all.


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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #416 on: November 18, 2015, 10:16:02 am »
Also pledged allegiance to Islamic State haven't they? Which says it all really. Another group which needs eradicating.

Along with their Al shahab buddies from Somalia.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #417 on: November 18, 2015, 10:37:13 am »
Part of the problem is that reactions to events like these are so visceral, and most people just think it's possible to bomb them into oblivion. That's never worked as a solution, but you wouldn't know it given the nature of debate that's currently taking place.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #418 on: November 18, 2015, 11:50:43 am »
I haven’t ventured into this side of RAWK, and onto this sort of subject for almost 14 months. It’s mostly connected with the fact that around that time,  I started working full time at a job that is to a certain degree, related to the topic of countering violent extremism (in this case, violent religious extremism). And when you deal with those sorts of issues at work all day (including some of the questions from the OP), the last thing on my mind is coming on RAWK and spending my free time debating, reading, or writing on this topic.  It's also far more tedious (and incredibly boring) when a lot of the debates concern the same posters, with the same views, using the same arguments, on different threads and at different times, over, and over again. I’ve already had my say (stored within RAWK archives) on the topic of Islam and extremism, so I won’t be touching upon that topic, but the OP was interesting. And the thread title happened to show up on the main RAWK page when I logged on. So I thought I’d add my thoughts, especially as it’s somehow relevant to what we’ve been working on over the past year or so. I thought I might share how we’ve tried to tackle the subject of violent religious extremism in our country. It might be interesting for people working in similar fields (but different countries), or for the general reader that wants to know what can be done closer to home. I’ll leave the issue of whether we should bomb ISIS or not (or some other tactic) for others to debate. This is what we’ve done over here, and in or order not to divulge too much information, I’d rather not say where “here” is.

Apologies in advance, for keeping some things in the dark. Additionally, this is a longish post (those  that have read some of my earlier posts on subjects concerning Islam, are probably already used to it by now), so consider yourself warned. :wave

To start off with, and to clarify for the OP, I don’t have any military background, my work is mostly working on the partnership between the city executive office, the state (including interior minister, prevention unit, or counter terrorist unit as I think it’s called in England), and the local communities. Specifically the minorities, and with reference to this topic, the Muslim minority youths (3rd culture kids, or 1st/2nd generation Europeans, depending on what terms you’re familiar with).

How we’ve approached the issue of violent extremism (as it’s labelled over here), and again, with reference to this topic, religious violent extremism (as opposed to neo Nazi or far right violent extremism, and far left extremism (as we’ve assessed it over here) is through Prevention. Violent religious extremism, and its threat, has been a concern for us ever since we noted a number of our youths had travelled to Syria. We don’t have Imams preaching hate or violence against the West, violence between Sunni and Shia is unheard of, at least over here, and we’ve never had violent religious extremism rear it’s head on our soil (it’s mostly been violent far right or far left extremism, and even then, very little), this was a concern for us. Another point to clarify, over here, we consider violent religous extremism, and violent far right extremism, as two sides of the same coins. Both use similar strategies of recruitment, an "us vs them" mentality, both offer a philosophy that is founded on the principle that their "followers" or "supporters" are superior in moral might than those that they oppose, both use terms that consistently protray their "work" and "future vision" of the world as a matter of honour or duty, both consider themselves victims in their environment (and therefore as some sort of honourable vigilantes bringing the world back into the light), and both target troubled youths. Obviously, there are differences, but the main approach when we target a youth we consider is potentially "high risk" and liable to join extremist groups, is almost exactly the same.

Prevention.
We can’t control the conflicts that happen overseas, but the least we can do is make sure our citizens aren’t running off making things worse over there, and at the same time, potentially creating a recruiting campaign that puts our youths at risk. At risk both in the short run, and in the long run, gives ammunition to the Far Right extremists to spout their hate, which gives ammunition to the religious extremist to flex their muscles, which starts a vicious cycle of hate in our society where debate gets reduced to attacks and fights, as opposed to discussions and solutions, and we end up in a situation where we’ve moved from extremism, to violent extremism, and everything blows up in our face.

As a prequel, before we started anything, we worked very hard behind the scenes, trying to learn more about those youngsters that ran off to Syria. And we noticed several trends. Many were young (19-30), outside of school, considered as trouble makers, or troubled youths. Their ethnicity seem to vary, though most were born here, and interesting enough, with a few exceptions, many of their friends and families were surprised they had travelled as they hadn’t considered them “religious”. There was even a case of a convert that accepted Islam and travelled 3 months later; as one of the officers mentioned a while back “how much knowledge of Islam would you have after only three months? And how can that be enough to join a terrorist group?”. There were also a minority (less than 6) that went to join the “Utopia” of a Muslim land (they wrote to their parents after the fact), but even in those cases, we had a married couple running away from parents that disapproved of their marriage, we had another youngster that went from nightclub goer to “there are no scholars of Islam in this country, I know I’m on the right path because it feels right” in less than 8 months.

Additionally,and it might be interesting for some, research conducted a few years ago in our country (by the leading University), has shown that ethnic minority youths (or children of Immigrants, born and raised here) are more likely to find it difficult to adapt, and are more likely to face depression, stress, and other psychological issues (anger issues, lack of belonging etc.) than their native counterparts.  That’s an alarming statistic, and in a way, society in general, the city and state, and the parents and minority communities have to look at ourselves and realise we’re not doing a good enough job. The more troubled and dissilusioned our youths are, the easier it is for extremism and radical groups (and gangs) to prey on them, and recruit them. At best, these youths will fail to become contributing members of our society, at worst, they join violent extremist groups (of all kinds) and pose a threat to their society.

So taking all the above into considering we (in this case; NGOs, Muslim religious leaders, city and state officials. I can't speak for the official strategic approach by the government as they probably have more layers and goals) approached the concept of countering violent extremism via prevention in 3 ways.

Firstly, we worked on enhancing the partnership between the city, state, and Islamic Mosques and representatives. We already had a partnership, but we’re more involved now. I won’t bore you with the details, but for example, we routinely have members of the Police visit certain Mosques (those that are comfortable with it!) where they can spend up to one hour completing Q&A sessions with the congregations after Friday sermons. NGOs, such as the one I work in, organise meetings between Imams, congregation members, and city officials, where we discuss issues that have sprung up (for instance the refugee crisis this year, or our solidarity Peace march just this past Sunday toward the French Embassy, in cooperation with other religious communities, and NGOs) and on their part, the city often run ideas past us, before they think of launching initiatives (concerning minorities). We also have NGOs offering courses, or lectures, on Islam, and especially, Islam in Europe (and our country) where the topic of what is culture vs what is Islam often discussed (it’s what we tend to be most asked about) to city officals, state officials, members of Immigration, Police etc.

Secondly, we work on our Muslim communities, and especially the Mosques. It’s not enough to be preaching “Islam is a religion of Peace” and assume people will accept that on face value, when every news outlet has religious extremists promoting hatred and atrocities in the name of Islam. As a result, we’ve opened up our Mosques. They’re more active with the neighbourhood community, and we’ve worked on many initiatives in partnership with local churches, where congregations from both the Church and the Mosque, visit one another and offer Q&A sessions. The concept, or message, of being both European and Muslim, is one that has to start from the Mosques, from the Imams. This a message that has been unequivocally accepted by all the Mosques in our network. This sort of interaction, especially when heralded by their local community leaders, and Imams, spreads the concept of tolerance, and especially, belonging, to our youths. We’re an accepted part of the community, we are the community, we have responsibilities towards the community, and we are all nationals of the same country.

We also push a more proactive approach with parents. It’s common among Immigrants that have children, to face the challenge of raising a European child, when the only experience the parents have of parenting is based on their home countries (massive culture clash!). It can take a toll on the parents (who might just give up and label their kid as lacking discipline), but also on the ethnic minority youths as they face challenges that neither their parents, nor other native youths, face. So we work closely with them, offering counselling sessions, with parents, and their children. And we also make sure that local representatives press the importance of parents knowing what their children expect, problems they face, and who they spend time with.

Gone are the days when the safest place for a child might be his bedroom (remember when getting grounded and stuck in your room was a legitimate punishment?), today with the click of a button, our youngsters can access any sort of information online. And if you’re angry, resentful, feel alienated, lack the sense of belonging, lack self-confidence, or lack some sort of goal in your life, radical extremism  (in the form of “WE vs THEM, WE=good, honest, victims, and THEM= Evil, oppressive, nonbelievers “) might seem enticing enough to offer you that answer (on another note, there are eerie similarities between the motivation for youths joining religious extremism groups, and youths joining far right extremism groups).

Which brings me to the final point, the youths. 
We’re far more active with minority youths than we ever were. We listen to them, discuss things with them, and try our best to understand the challenges that they face (as opposed to us assuming the challenge they face). We also work with Mosques and other religious communities (and youth groups) in pushing the value of education, of creating future goals, and providing support systems (mentors) for youths that might not have a clear idea of what they’d like to be. We're working with schools (at the moment, in the capitol city)  to offer class visits to Mosques, Churches, Synagogues, whenever they're studying one of those religions. This gives them a chance to get first hand information, whilst giving them an opportunity to visit and "visualise" the other religions. The religious communities have been very supportive and have offered to host (and continue to offer) thes excursions free of charge (increasing the school budget is not as simple as it sounds). We believe that learning about other religions, and especially, understanding that each of them offers a "logic" as to why they should be followed, teaches the lesson to youths in school that making a "different" choice to another person doesn't immediately classify them as "wrong" or "irrational and illogical". One of the values that is important in our society is the right to think for ourselves, we loathe being told what to think. And so, the message of tolerance is one that should go hand in hand with that value.

We also do not want to foster narratives that lead into “Us vs them”, or the concept of “victimhood” when it becomes far more comfortable to blame others for challenges or obstacles facing our lives (real or imagined) instead of trying to find a way to overcome it(what can I do about it, what do I control, and what is out of my hands etc) and moving on. Everyone doesn’t have to accept Islam is the right religion, everyone doesn’t have to like Islam (dislike is also a right of an individual), or follow the rules of Islam, and you know what, who cares, deal with it and move on. Would life be easier if the news was always accurate, if people (from all sides) were tolerant, if they guy down the road wasn’t racist? Yup, well life happens (that last paragraph always gets a positive response from the youths, and the latter line always gets a laugh).

In all three aspects (with City and State officials, Muslim communities, and minority youths), we offer lectures, and discussions on Islam. We have Mosques that follow different interpretation within Islam, but that is wholly different than violent religious extremism (as I've mentioned, cherry picking verses without any context is misinformation based on an agenda, not an interpretation), when it comes to violence, all the Religious community leaders and Imams preach the same message, and so we're not concerned about Mosque A offering a different stance than Mosque B (on the topic of violence). Our youths are getting the same messages concerning Islam, which we feel offers an additional element to prevention. We want to change their state of minds into a more positive outlook with all the activities and discussions we have, and at the same time, we want them to understand the core message of Islam.

Simply having that foundation of knowledge concerning Islam, without addressing other external problems the youths face, might not be a solution in of itself to counter radicalism and extremism, but together with all the other aspects mentioned above, should make a difference (we're counting on it!)


As for the youths already in Syria, it seems very tricky bringing them back. From our part, we'll over rehabilitation services, counselling, etc. though obviously, those that commited illegal acts over there will bear the punishments. However, whilst it's surprisingly easy to end up in Syria and among ISIS, it's exceedingly difficult to get allowed back out of their grasps. We have contact with many of our citizens over there (via family and friends), and it seems once you become part of ISIS, they don't let you back out. You don't get to change your mind (which many did within the first few months). All the families can do is keep sending them money for food and shelter, hope that they stay out of harms way, and hopefully they eventually find a way out of there. I think we need to remember that, when we're talking about people returning. There will be some that were naive and ignorant enough, to run away trying to make statements to their families, friends, or society, and though they are guilty of sympathising and joining a terrorist group like ISIS, they shouldn't be tarred with the same brush as those running,organising, and killing.

Now that’s a “brief” summary into what we’ve done. It’s obviously easier for us, than say, in France or England, because we have a smaller community of Muslims, we don’t have a colonial history or a prior foreign policy where we might have bombed anyone, and we have the benefit of hindsight. We can see what other countries with a far older history of Immigration have done, what policies worked, or didn’t, and learn from that.

But as they say, spending more time working on solutions, and less time complaining about the problems, might require more work, but it leads to less problems.
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Offline robgomm

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #419 on: November 18, 2015, 12:02:18 pm »
Absolutely fascinating post Doc Red, I've bookmarked it. Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences and ideas.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #420 on: November 18, 2015, 12:04:49 pm »
Absolutely fascinating post Doc Red, I've bookmarked it. Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences and ideas.

Totally agree
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #421 on: November 18, 2015, 12:07:15 pm »
On another note, we had two counter terrorists officials from England visit us earlier this year to give a short consulting session. And it was really surprising (and slightly disheartening) to note that a big percentage of the terms they used, and the problems they discussed, were terms our government doesn’t use (“Jihadist” what on Earth is that supposed to mean?) or issues we simply don’t have (“arranged marriages”). You have problems with forced/arranged marriages in England? Seriously? And honour killings? In England?  They were trying to discuss arranged/forced marriages and honour killings, with us like it was some sort of Islamic ruling. As if it was something that was obviously an issue over here, simply because we have Muslims.  They wanted to know if Imams signed a pledge, when they worked with the government. Apparently, over in England, there are Imams flinging ALL sorts of hate filled venom onto their congregation.

Sure, we have some issues that need to be bridged, but nothing on that level.  And there were other issues they shared, that I won’t mention, but I can see where a little bit of the animosity towards Islam might start from, especially under the  title of “debate” that sometimes flows blows through these threads. Obviously, I haven’t heard both sides (they were officials working for the English government), but if half of what they said was right…

It seems there’s a common misconception that the Islam people see in England is exactly the same that would be seen prevalent among Muslims from any cultural background. But there are plenty of so-called “Islamic” activities that are far more about culture than they are about Islam.  Different countries have incorporated Islam into their culture via the very prism of their original culture. So whereas Country A might strictly follow rules X, they might turn a blind eye to following rules Y, similarly Country B might strictly follow rule Y, and turn a blind eye to rules X. Over time, each within their country will incorporate those culture activities as part of Islam, and each will assume that Islam is only what they’ve chosen to follow (and the others are wrong). The core message should be the same, but there are areas where culture (and especially culture of the last century) has infringed its way into how we interpret Islam. This is especially prevalent in countries I’ve visited which have a form of dictatorship, or Ruler, presiding over the people. The way Islam is taught there is via an uncompromising set of rules (you cannot debate Islam in most of the countries that I visited. Note, debating and discussing Islam is an important aspect of interpreting Islam)

So sometimes, it’s not the “what you think” that’s important in so much as it’s the “why you think what you think” that seems key. I think it's especially key in creating a more tolerant society. Ideas, values, and opinions can become so ingrained on us, that we end up following them simply because we've always done. Take the time to visit and discuss with people of different orientations and faiths or beliefs. We can't sit around thinking the world will right itself. Making a difference doesn't require drastic changes in your life. Listen, ask questions, debate and discuss. Go and learn about the subject first hand, straight from the horse's mouth. Talk to your youths, neighbourhood communities. And if you're already doing this, keep it up and encourage others. In our own way, we can all do our part, cliche as that sounds, it's reality. You're not going to change the world by furiously condemning people whilst passionately pounding on your keyboards. We have enough keyboard warriors to survive countless virtual wars.

And before I forget, if there is anyone on this thread that is working on some sort of preventive work in England, or working with minority Muslim youths, I’d be interested to know how things are done with those sorts of challenges (or pm me).

edit* Cheers fellas.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #422 on: November 18, 2015, 12:57:16 pm »
Thanks for both of those posts Doc Red. Really restrained and readable.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #423 on: November 18, 2015, 01:13:36 pm »
Yes - fascinating posts.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #424 on: November 18, 2015, 01:48:15 pm »
Didn't they get bombed too, or is that why they booed, no one held a minute silence around Europe when Isis killed 100 Turks a couple of weeks back. They still shouldn't have booed, but I see why this may have been an issue for them.
Imagine if 100 Brits died in an Isis attack and no one held minute silences, then when 100 Turks die the announcer at Wembley said give us a minute silence please, guess what you'll get, booing.
Not enough people see all sides of the story, but you could be right, they may have booed because turkish fans are Muslim so naturally they're declaring war on us, everyone is free to their interpretation, based on their capacity to understand.
That doesn't excuse Bosnia, some of their fans didn't respect the minutes silence 2 nights ago.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #425 on: November 18, 2015, 01:56:34 pm »
That doesn't excuse Bosnia, some of their fans didn't respect the minutes silence 2 nights ago.

I wouldn't read too much into any of this. It doesn't take many people in a football ground to spoil a minute's silence. And footy fans, the world over, are tribal and a bit medieval too.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #426 on: November 18, 2015, 01:57:57 pm »
I wouldn't read too much into any of this. It doesn't take many people in a football ground to spoil a minute's silence. And footy fans, the world over, are tribal and a bit medieval too.
Totally. I'm merely countering the argument abobe. That vast vast majority of Bosnians were fine.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #427 on: November 18, 2015, 01:59:18 pm »
very insightful doc red,thanks
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #428 on: November 18, 2015, 01:59:36 pm »
That doesn't excuse Bosnia, some of their fans didn't respect the minutes silence 2 nights ago.

Yeh that was shocking. Some people are just c*nts unfortunately. Like whoever let off fire works in Paris the day after the massacre.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #429 on: November 18, 2015, 03:41:03 pm »
It's a sura from the Koran.
The definition of that verse is not what you actually posted here.

Plus, I am pretty sure if Islam described Jews as descendants of pigs and monkeys, you won't be allowed to marry one yet in Islam it is not prohibited for one to marry a Jew or a Christian.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 03:51:08 pm by Y2J »
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #430 on: November 18, 2015, 03:52:31 pm »
The word pigs was never even mentioned in the Kuran.

Plus, I am pretty sure if Islam described Jews as descendants of pigs and monkeys, you won't be allowed to marry one yet in Islam it is not prohibited for one to marry a Jew or a Christian.

Is "apes" a better translation then? I've seen both, but you think "apes" is closer to the Arabic?

In a way I prefer "apes". It suggests a little nod to Darwin....
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #431 on: November 18, 2015, 04:11:06 pm »
Is "apes" a better translation then? I've seen both, but you think "apes" is closer to the Arabic?

In a way I prefer "apes". It suggests a little nod to Darwin....
I had to double check the meaning of that verse in Arabic (as it is my mother language so easier to understand the explanation better, Kuran uses the old Arabic language so sometimes things can get out of context even when you know the meaning of the words because of the strong grammar of that language), there is also another verse (7-163) that explains the story of the one you mentioned.

The story about the Island that Moses was preaching for, they were ordered to take Saturday off for serving God and do nothing but that. On Saturday was the day, they would observe the whales in the water and some of them decided to go hunting these whales disobeying God's orders. There were three camps: Those who obeyed God and didn't go hunting, those who obeyed and also warned people of God's consequence and those who disobeyed God and refused to follow orders. The last camp are the ones who were mentioned to transform into apes.

The second sura details the camps quite clearly and the story and how they were transformed into apes.

Again, I prefer to use Arabic's main explanations so that nothing is lost in translation. You can see where I got it from here "Arabic link": https://sites.google.com/site/alqranalkrym/swrte-1/swrte-albqrte-ayte-65/1-1

It uses Tabri's explanation which is considered by scholars to be the best one.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 04:13:04 pm by Y2J »
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #432 on: November 18, 2015, 04:34:50 pm »
On another note, we had two counter terrorists officials from England visit us earlier this year to give a short consulting session. And it was really surprising (and slightly disheartening) to note that a big percentage of the terms they used, and the problems they discussed, were terms our government doesn’t use (“Jihadist” what on Earth is that supposed to mean?) or issues we simply don’t have (“arranged marriages”). You have problems with forced/arranged marriages in England? Seriously? And honour killings? In England?  They were trying to discuss arranged/forced marriages and honour killings, with us like it was some sort of Islamic ruling. As if it was something that was obviously an issue over here, simply because we have Muslims.  They wanted to know if Imams signed a pledge, when they worked with the government. Apparently, over in England, there are Imams flinging ALL sorts of hate filled venom onto their congregation.

Sure, we have some issues that need to be bridged, but nothing on that level.  And there were other issues they shared, that I won’t mention, but I can see where a little bit of the animosity towards Islam might start from, especially under the  title of “debate” that sometimes flows blows through these threads. Obviously, I haven’t heard both sides (they were officials working for the English government), but if half of what they said was right…

It seems there’s a common misconception that the Islam people see in England is exactly the same that would be seen prevalent among Muslims from any cultural background. But there are plenty of so-called “Islamic” activities that are far more about culture than they are about Islam.  Different countries have incorporated Islam into their culture via the very prism of their original culture. So whereas Country A might strictly follow rules X, they might turn a blind eye to following rules Y, similarly Country B might strictly follow rule Y, and turn a blind eye to rules X. Over time, each within their country will incorporate those culture activities as part of Islam, and each will assume that Islam is only what they’ve chosen to follow (and the others are wrong). The core message should be the same, but there are areas where culture (and especially culture of the last century) has infringed its way into how we interpret Islam. This is especially prevalent in countries I’ve visited which have a form of dictatorship, or Ruler, presiding over the people. The way Islam is taught there is via an uncompromising set of rules (you cannot debate Islam in most of the countries that I visited. Note, debating and discussing Islam is an important aspect of interpreting Islam)

So sometimes, it’s not the “what you think” that’s important in so much as it’s the “why you think what you think” that seems key. I think it's especially key in creating a more tolerant society. Ideas, values, and opinions can become so ingrained on us, that we end up following them simply because we've always done. Take the time to visit and discuss with people of different orientations and faiths or beliefs. We can't sit around thinking the world will right itself. Making a difference doesn't require drastic changes in your life. Listen, ask questions, debate and discuss. Go and learn about the subject first hand, straight from the horse's mouth. Talk to your youths, neighbourhood communities. And if you're already doing this, keep it up and encourage others. In our own way, we can all do our part, cliche as that sounds, it's reality. You're not going to change the world by furiously condemning people whilst passionately pounding on your keyboards. We have enough keyboard warriors to survive countless virtual wars.

And before I forget, if there is anyone on this thread that is working on some sort of preventive work in England, or working with minority Muslim youths, I’d be interested to know how things are done with those sorts of challenges (or pm me).

edit* Cheers fellas.

Welcome back Doc, superb post.

The bit in bold is something which I was discussing with a colleague in work today. She was telling me that she had a Sri Lankan house keeper for sixteen years who she considers as her second mother. When my colleague was little the lady would tell her of stories about how she had a friend who had converted to Islam in order to marry a Muslim man but that before getting married she had her genitals mutilated... The lady assumed that this happened to all Muslims across the world and that my colleague who is a Muslim would have to go through the same thing when she reaches her teenage years.
An example of an old and barbaric custom practiced by a community of people that has been associated with the religion they follow even though no such thing has ever been mentioned in the Qu'uran.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 04:37:50 pm by Euskadi »
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #433 on: November 18, 2015, 10:29:58 pm »
Must admit I've not read up in depth on exactly what IS are trying to achieve in the long run, but there seems to be something of a contradiction about what they're doing at the moment. On the one hand they're carrying out multiple attacks against a wide variety of targets (i.e. not just the US and Western Europe), basically turning everyone against them - as if they're trying to provoke someone into actually committing ground troops into Iraq or Syria so they can get drawn into some kind of apocalyptic war.

But on the other hand, they're trying to create a literal 'Islamic State' which they presumably would like to cover the whole of the Middle East. However, constantly provoking the world's largest military powers would seem to threaten that ambition - the more territory you have, the more you have to lose. Every time they attack a powerful nation, it becomes more likely that someone will invade Iraq or Syria and take all that territory off them. So are they just trying to create as much carnage and mayhem as they can, or are they actually trying to build a state?

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #434 on: November 18, 2015, 10:40:49 pm »
Must admit I've not read up in depth on exactly what IS are trying to achieve in the long run, but there seems to be something of a contradiction about what they're doing at the moment. On the one hand they're carrying out multiple attacks against a wide variety of targets (i.e. not just the US and Western Europe), basically turning everyone against them - as if they're trying to provoke someone into actually committing ground troops into Iraq or Syria so they can get drawn into some kind of apocalyptic war.

But on the other hand, they're trying to create a literal 'Islamic State' which they presumably would like to cover the whole of the Middle East. However, constantly provoking the world's largest military powers would seem to threaten that ambition - the more territory you have, the more you have to lose. Every time they attack a powerful nation, it becomes more likely that someone will invade Iraq or Syria and take all that territory off them. So are they just trying to create as much carnage and mayhem as they can, or are they actually trying to build a state?
They believe that there has to be an apocalyptic war between Islam and the 'Crusaders' that Islam will win and will usher in the worldwide domination of Islam.

The mistake you're making is applying rational moderate thinking to a bunch of complete and utter nutcases.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #435 on: November 18, 2015, 10:50:52 pm »
They (genuinely) think they are fighting the Roman Empire...

They want to return island empire.. (Which was why they blew up the trains in Spain).


But they aren't nut cases..

Most are intelligent and from good families.  They aren't mentally ill..

That's what's scary
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #436 on: November 18, 2015, 10:51:42 pm »
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #437 on: November 18, 2015, 10:56:52 pm »
They believe that there has to be an apocalyptic war between Islam and the 'Crusaders' that Islam will win and will usher in the worldwide domination of Islam.

The mistake you're making is applying rational moderate thinking to a bunch of complete and utter nutcases.

But surely those at the very top can't really believe that, I mean I'm assuming that they're pretty intelligent. If, say, a NATO force went into Iraq, the dynamic would be different to the previous Iraq war, when (once the Iraqi army had been defeated) the 'insurgents' basically fought a guerilla war - but that was because they never held any actual territory. But this time around, if IS reverted to just guerilla warfare, they would basically be conceding all that territory which they currently claim to govern, so their 'Islamic State' would no longer exist. If they tried to fight a conventional war they would have little chance of winning. So what is more important to them - provoking the West into a reaction, or trying to establish and expand and their 'state'? Because surely they can't do both, in the long term.


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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #438 on: November 18, 2015, 11:18:01 pm »
But surely those at the very top can't really believe that, I mean I'm assuming that they're pretty intelligent. If, say, a NATO force went into Iraq, the dynamic would be different to the previous Iraq war, when (once the Iraqi army had been defeated) the 'insurgents' basically fought a guerilla war - but that was because they never held any actual territory. But this time around, if IS reverted to just guerilla warfare, they would basically be conceding all that territory which they currently claim to govern, so their 'Islamic State' would no longer exist. If they tried to fight a conventional war they would have little chance of winning. So what is more important to them - provoking the West into a reaction, or trying to establish and expand and their 'state'? Because surely they can't do both, in the long term.

They are trying to force the world into accepting their state, the suicide bombings are their leverage. Their aim is not to take over the world, that is poorly researched fanciful talk, the best way I can describe their aims is that they want to have their own Israel. A state where all Muslim Sunnis can go and find belonging. They can't expand beyond certain cities in Syria and Iraq because they are surrounded by people of different faiths and backgrounds to them and they can't take over those places without the support of local population. Their end game is being told they can have 70% of Syria and Iraq and create an Islamic state that will become a fearsome player in world politics. That too will never happen, but they will die, and kill, trying.
The reality of things is that there are millions of Iraqis and Syrians who have never felt safe until Isis ruled them. You can get a lot of loyalty if you can promise and then provide security, it's human nature.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 11:22:40 pm by The North Bank »

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #439 on: November 18, 2015, 11:58:58 pm »
The reality of things is that there are millions of Iraqis and Syrians who have never felt safe until Isis ruled them.

So there are genuinely people that feel safer now? ???

Why are they flooding Europe exactly?