Author Topic: Today's shooting - The Sandy Hook Memorial Thread - Thoughts and Prayers  (Read 537082 times)

Offline Tsar Kastik

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #800 on: July 11, 2016, 09:48:54 am »
A quite stunning photo...


 
As the article says, quite likely to become legendary, (rather like the Kent State University flowers in rifle barrels one.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36759711
Real too - not a scene from a film. There must be so much despair in some places.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #801 on: July 11, 2016, 09:59:47 am »
Real too - not a scene from a film. There must be so much despair in some places.


Absolutely Tsar.

I just find there's something very disturbing about it, that we seem to have allowed such a militarisation of Police Forces, not just in the US but here in Europe also.
Three characters acting out Robocop, backed up by more identical ranks behind, going to arrest an elegant women dressed in a summer outfit, for allegedly blocking the road. Whatever happened to proportional response. The whole thing is just so tragic.
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Offline stoa

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #802 on: July 11, 2016, 10:10:38 am »
Absolutely Tsar.

I just find there's something very disturbing about it, that we seem to have allowed such a militarisation of Police Forces, not just in the US but here in Europe also.
Three characters acting out Robocop, backed up by more identical ranks behind, going to arrest an elegant women dressed in a summer outfit, for allegedly blocking the road. Whatever happened to proportional response. The whole thing is just so tragic.

To be honest, I think the US are a special case. On the one hand, you can argue that their Police Forces are over-militarised (especially when they're driving around in armoured military vehicles or stand there with assault-rifles and the like). On the other hand, we're talking about a country where apparantly in certain parts it's perfectly legal for any person to show up to a protest with a firearm over their shoulder. The photo is powerful, but then again I can also see why as a cop you'd want to give yourself as much protection as you can even if someone might think it's over the top...

Offline The North Bank

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #803 on: July 11, 2016, 10:17:41 am »
I wouldn't want to be a black man in America, or a cop in America. Both fraught with danger.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #804 on: July 11, 2016, 10:30:18 am »
To be honest, I think the US are a special case. On the one hand, you can argue that their Police Forces are over-militarised (especially when they're driving around in armoured military vehicles or stand there with assault-rifles and the like). On the other hand, we're talking about a country where apparantly in certain parts it's perfectly legal for any person to show up to a protest with a firearm over their shoulder. The photo is powerful, but then again I can also see why as a cop you'd want to give yourself as much protection as you can even if someone might think it's over the top...

Yes, it's bleakly understandable, but it's also a never ending but also escalating action-reaction vicious circle and with one obvious root cause, the free availability of firearms and the ability to even open carry such stuff. It's all quite mad.
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Offline KiNki

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #805 on: July 11, 2016, 12:28:21 pm »
Real too - not a scene from a film. There must be so much despair in some places.


There's dispair here, thousands of miles away, if the police force feels that this is the kind of clobber they need to go about daily business something has gone very very wrong.  Society needs to take a good long look at themselves.  All this aggro so some people can have their guns. It's just not worth it. Give em up.  Then the police will be less terrified and trigger happy and will give  up theirs. And civility and talking rationally can begin.

Mental absolutely mental in this day and age.

Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #806 on: July 11, 2016, 01:40:13 pm »
It's Robocop esq. in it's execution.  (no pun intended)

Offline Vinay

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #807 on: July 11, 2016, 02:57:48 pm »
There are still pubs in England that don't serve black people, I've seen it myself. While we are not at usa levels in extremes, racism is still alive and kicking here too.
You must be kidding..... I mean where? I will just choose not to go there mate. I am concerned.
By the way, ex Mayor Giuliani has just thrown his two cents on the matter:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/rudy-giuliani-black-people-kill-each-other-99-percent-nyc-mayor-black-lives-matter-a7129926.html

Offline Romeo Sensini

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #808 on: July 11, 2016, 03:04:33 pm »
A quite stunning photo...
Reminds me of this photo from Ferguson almost 2 years ago...


Offline Tsar Kastik

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #809 on: July 11, 2016, 03:22:05 pm »
How much do these kits cost? Blimey, must be some cash to be made producing them.
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Offline Vinay

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #810 on: July 11, 2016, 03:23:36 pm »
How much do these kits cost? Blimey, must be some cash to be made producing them.
I am sure  they are made by contractors who are partly owned by men in power.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #811 on: July 11, 2016, 03:31:11 pm »
How much do these kits cost? Blimey, must be some cash to be made producing them.

Jesus makes them in the Freedom Factory.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #812 on: July 11, 2016, 04:43:29 pm »
One thing I did think of not including drones.

Is he the first person to be kill on purpose by a police controlled robot?

So the police are now using robots to kill people.
The guy deserved to die.

It was an expedient way to minimize further loss of life.

His motivation does not ameliorate his crime.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #813 on: July 11, 2016, 06:27:44 pm »
A quite stunning photo...


 
As the article says, quite likely to become legendary, (rather like the Kent State University flowers in rifle barrels one.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36759711
Reminds me of this photo from Ferguson almost 2 years ago...


I'd also add the "Seasons Greetings" one from Ferguson It certainly has a sinister and menacing feel to it but it accurately captures a dark moment in history.     

Offline Lone Star Red

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #814 on: July 11, 2016, 07:13:42 pm »
One thing I did think of not including drones.

Is he the first person to be kill on purpose by a police controlled robot?

So the police are now using robots to kill people.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, your post makes it seem like you are opposed to the way the police handled the way they dealt with Micah Johnson? 
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Offline KiNki

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #815 on: July 11, 2016, 07:19:31 pm »
Unless I'm reading it wrong, your post makes it seem like you are opposed to the way the police handled the way they dealt with Micah Johnson? 

i read it like this.

what could possibly go wrong in the future when robots are sent in to do the job.


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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #816 on: July 11, 2016, 07:28:25 pm »
Unless I'm reading it wrong, your post makes it seem like you are opposed to the way the police handled the way they dealt with Micah Johnson? 

Strawman argument that as it is a bigger issue than one man. Do you agree with the actions the police in these undoubtedly racist murders?

Are you solely in this thread to defend the police?

Their actions as a group in the United States for the last half-century towards blacks in the US has been fucking disgusting.

That's why I posted the Malcolm X quote recently. Kick people long enough and they'll kick back. Shoot innocent people long enough.....you get the picture.
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Offline Purple Red

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #817 on: July 11, 2016, 07:53:50 pm »
One thing I did think of not including drones.

Is he the first person to be kill on purpose by a police controlled robot?

So the police are now using robots to kill people.

Yes it is the first time on American soil that law enforcement have used this tactic.

He certainly had to be neutralised but the manner of doing so reflects how violent American society is becoming.

Offline Lone Star Red

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #818 on: July 11, 2016, 09:19:19 pm »
Strawman argument that as it is a bigger issue than one man. Do you agree with the actions the police in these undoubtedly racist murders?

Are you solely in this thread to defend the police?

Their actions as a group in the United States for the last half-century towards blacks in the US has been fucking disgusting.

That's why I posted the Malcolm X quote recently. Kick people long enough and they'll kick back. Shoot innocent people long enough.....you get the picture.

I'm here to defend the Dallas Police for their actions on the night of July 7th, yes. If that's what we're going to reduce it down to.  ::)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 09:20:52 pm by Lone Star Red »
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Offline B0151?

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #819 on: July 11, 2016, 11:14:12 pm »
I'd defend it too. If there's an option that means the police don't have to get involved in a deadly shootout with a heavily armed mass murderer and put lives at risk, I'm inclined to support it. It's not like this was an instant decision to send the bot in, they negotiated with him for hours.

I am not saying there should be no concerns or analysis on it, and the use of it going forward, mind. Just my outrage is more focused on the ease in which one can seriously build up a deadly collection of weapons. I think it might have been on here I read an article about how in America there's basically an arms race between the public and the police, with the arms and guns manufacturers laughing their way to the bank on the back of it.

Offline Trada

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #820 on: July 12, 2016, 03:30:33 am »
Unless I'm reading it wrong, your post makes it seem like you are opposed to the way the police handled the way they dealt with Micah Johnson?

Of course not just wondering if this was a first. Robot or shot it made no difference.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #821 on: July 12, 2016, 03:45:07 am »
It's Robocop esq. in it's execution.  (no pun intended)

Robocop decided to drop his police routine and passed the bar exams?
 ;)

Offline Geppvindh's

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #822 on: July 13, 2016, 05:32:33 pm »
Nate Silver is out with a great deal of data on gun deaths. In his own words -
"FiveThirtyEight is out with a massive project this morning on gun deaths in America, which features a combination of data + reporting. We wanted to focus on gun deaths that usually don't make headlines -- for example, suicides in rural areas and homicides among the urban poor -- but that make up the bulk of gun-related fatalities. Really hope you'll take a look."

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-deaths/

Great visualizations to play with. Raw data sets available for those with an analytical bent.

Offline vagabond

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #823 on: July 13, 2016, 05:48:04 pm »
I'd defend it too. If there's an option that means the police don't have to get involved in a deadly shootout with a heavily armed mass murderer and put lives at risk, I'm inclined to support it. It's not like this was an instant decision to send the bot in, they negotiated with him for hours.

I am not saying there should be no concerns or analysis on it, and the use of it going forward, mind. Just my outrage is more focused on the ease in which one can seriously build up a deadly collection of weapons. I think it might have been on here I read an article about how in America there's basically an arms race between the public and the police, with the arms and guns manufacturers laughing their way to the bank on the back of it.

Why wasn't the bot sent in with some form of sleeping gas?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #824 on: July 13, 2016, 05:49:46 pm »
Why wasn't the bot sent in with some form of sleeping gas?

There's no such thing.
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #825 on: July 13, 2016, 05:52:10 pm »
There's no such thing.

Fair enough.
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Offline CHOPPER

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #826 on: July 13, 2016, 05:52:54 pm »
Why didn't they use the GMM(Giant Magnetic Machine) and magnet-suck the gun out of his hands?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #827 on: July 13, 2016, 06:09:09 pm »
Fair enough.

Sorry for the short reply - there are gasses that are used to knock people up but essentially they're poisons but used in a dose that knocks you out without killing you. In the Moscow theatre hostage crisis the Russian authorities pumped in a 'sleeping gas' which killed all but two of the 130 hostages who died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

In a small room with known dimensions you might be able to work out the right dose. In large open area like a parking garage there's no way of knowing what dose would be delivered, so to be sure of incapacitating someone who's already killed 5 policemen with an assault rifle you would probably kill them with the gas anyway.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #828 on: July 13, 2016, 06:12:56 pm »
Why didn't they use the GMM(Giant Magnetic Machine) and magnet-suck the gun out of his hands?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/EwVDDxoKBk4?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/EwVDDxoKBk4?fs=1</a>
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Offline jason67

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #829 on: July 13, 2016, 06:28:13 pm »
Sorry for the short reply - there are gasses that are used to knock people up but essentially they're poisons but used in a dose that knocks you out without killing you.


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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #830 on: July 13, 2016, 06:33:04 pm »
Is right Al ;D
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #831 on: July 13, 2016, 06:33:52 pm »
Why would they want to get them pregnant?

Oops.
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Offline jason67

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #832 on: July 13, 2016, 06:36:29 pm »
Oops.

Thought I might had been a new conspiracy theory you'd been working on.  :)
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #833 on: July 13, 2016, 06:39:05 pm »
Sorry for the short reply - there are gasses that are used to knock people up but essentially they're poisons but used in a dose that knocks you out without killing you. In the Moscow theatre hostage crisis the Russian authorities pumped in a 'sleeping gas' which killed all but two of the 130 hostages who died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

In a small room with known dimensions you might be able to work out the right dose. In large open area like a parking garage there's no way of knowing what dose would be delivered, so to be sure of incapacitating someone who's already killed 5 policemen with an assault rifle you would probably kill them with the gas anyway.

Yeah that all makes sense. I wasn't aware that it was an open parking garage he was in.
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Offline Zlen

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #834 on: July 13, 2016, 08:00:11 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/?v=U_VaNhI4CLo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/?v=U_VaNhI4CLo</a>

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #835 on: July 13, 2016, 08:17:19 pm »
Sorry for the short reply - there are gasses that are used to knock people up but essentially they're poisons but used in a dose that knocks you out without killing you. In the Moscow theatre hostage crisis the Russian authorities pumped in a 'sleeping gas' which killed all but two of the 130 hostages who died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

In a small room with known dimensions you might be able to work out the right dose. In large open area like a parking garage there's no way of knowing what dose would be delivered, so to be sure of incapacitating someone who's already killed 5 policemen with an assault rifle you would probably kill them with the gas anyway.

It could have fired a knockout dart
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Offline Umbarto

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #836 on: July 13, 2016, 09:06:59 pm »
No chance something like that works quick enough before he has a chance to make a final attempt at killing.

Taser maybe... but they played it safe, not knowing if he was wired with explosives.

Offline GREGtheRED

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #837 on: July 13, 2016, 09:33:50 pm »
Absolutely Tsar.

I just find there's something very disturbing about it, that we seem to have allowed such a militarisation of Police Forces, not just in the US but here in Europe also.
Three characters acting out Robocop, backed up by more identical ranks behind, going to arrest an elegant women dressed in a summer outfit, for allegedly blocking the road. Whatever happened to proportional response. The whole thing is just so tragic.

Surely you just have to think back to the London riots of 2011 to see why it is absolutely necessary for police officers to wear so much protective kit?

It all seems very proportionate when you consider that there is a disposition prevalent among certain sections of the public to throw bricks, bottles, bits of masonry, fireworks, petrol bombs etc at police officers.

It makes me very sad that even after the devastating scenes in Dallas, in which police officers showed incredible levels of courage and sacrifice to protect a public calling them the devil, that the rhetoric is still that of good (public) v evil (police).

That photo of the girl being a case in point.

Offline dumbo

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #838 on: July 13, 2016, 09:39:24 pm »
AFAICT, the shooter in Dallas:
- he was holed up in a building and the police were coming under fire when they attempted to approach him.
- he seemed to claim something about "explosives being planted", logically the police would have feared that he had explosives on him or in the building.
- they sent a robot to the other side of a solid wall that he was hiding behind, and detonated the explosives.
- there is no real way to taser or stun someone with a robot like this.  (these robots aren't intended for 'combat' - they're designed for planting bombs on bombs - so this is the only obvious way to use a robot to end that siege).
So, it seems a valid tactic to end the siege.  The only question is whether they needed to end the siege.

Obviously the elephant in the room is a civilian with an assault rifle... but I'm sure the solution is another 'war on terrorism' or something.

Offline eddymunster

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #839 on: July 14, 2016, 11:18:42 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/13/body-camera-footage-released-dylan-noble-police-shooting

Police in California have released graphic body-camera footage of officers repeatedly shooting an unarmed teenager, including multiple shots that were fired as the adolescent was gravely wounded, lying on his back and barely moving.

The release on Wednesday of video of the killing of Dylan Noble, a 19-year-old shot at a gas station in Fresno on 25 June, occurred just hours after the police department told the Guardian it would not release the footage.

Officers privately showed the video to Noble’s family last Friday but had initially refused to release the video to the public until the investigation was complete.

“They just wanted to shoot him,” said Darren Noble, Dylan’s father, after watching the footage. “They’re just trigger-happy.”

After watching the footage, Noble’s family launched legal action against the city alleging that the shooting was “an inexcusable use of excessive force”.

According to the Fresno police department’s account of the shooting, officers pulled Noble over while investigating reports of a man carrying a rifle at around 3.20pm.

Police claim that the officers believed Noble had a gun, though they later learned he had no weapons on him or in his pickup truck.

Blurry video from a witness that emerged last week captured the final bullets that killed Noble, but the body-camera footage provides a much fuller picture of the shooting.

The body-camera footage released Wednesday shows that officers approached Noble with their guns pointed at him and repeatedly shouted: “Let me see your hands” and “Both hands.”

When Noble eventually exited and walked away from his truck, he appeared to have his left arm outstretched and, for a few seconds, his right arm behind his back. He then briefly walked toward the police.

Officers continued shouting at him to show his hands, with one screaming: “Get your fucking ass on the ground.”

One officer then fired two shots at Noble, who collapsed onto the ground and rolled onto his back. Approximately 12 seconds later, while Noble was laying on the ground, the same officer fired a third shot.

An officer then shouted: “If you reach one more time, you will get shot again. Stop.”

Roughly 15 seconds after the third shot, with Noble barely moving, another officer shot a fourth.

“Do not reach again, please,” an officer said.

Narrating the footage, police chief Jerry Dyer repeatedly pointed out moments when, he said, it appeared that Noble had something in his hand. He said the investigation would seek to determine whether each bullet was justified and if there were alternative actions the police could have taken.

“Were the last two rounds fired by the officers necessary? Based on a reasonable fear, did the officers have to use deadly force? I do not have the answer to that today,” he said, adding: “That video was extremely disturbing to watch.”

Dyer also referenced the unrest throughout the country, saying: “In many respects, we are a spark away from a forest fire in our communities in America.”

Questions over Noble’s death come at a time when communities across the country are grappling with anxieties about police brutality following multiple high-profile deaths by officers.

In Baton Rouge, Louisiana, police tackled and fatally shot Alton Sterling last week outside of a convenience store while he was selling CDs.

One day later, during a traffic stop in Minnesota, an officer killed Philando Castile, who told the officer that he had a gun and a permit to carry it, according to his girlfriend, who was sat in the passenger seat.

The Baton Rouge shooting and the aftermath of the Minnesota shooting were caught on camera in disturbing footage that quickly went viral.

The violence continued when a sniper killed five officers in Dallas last Thursday during a peaceful protest against police violence. According to police, the gunman, Micah Johnson, was a political extremist motivated by grievances over police shootings promoted by the the Black Lives Matters movement.

Dyer said he would not release the name of the officers out of fear for their safety. “I don’t want anything to happen in our city like it happened in Dallas.”

The death of Noble, who is white, received national attention when some protesters in the Central Valley city held up a “White Lives Matter” sign at a vigil.


How 'White Lives Matter' protests over a police shooting were misunderstood
 Read more
The appropriation of the political caused controversy online, however friends of Noble said their protests had been misunderstood and they were only seeking justice for their friend.

The Noble family’s claim for unspecified damages, filed on Monday on behalf of his mother Veronica Nelson, argues that officers “never had an objectively reasonable basis to shoot” the 19-year-old.

The department has also failed to remedy “systemic violations” and “civil rights abuses” within the police agency, the claim continues, and has shown “deliberate indifference to the use of excessive and often deadly force in encounters with civilians when it is a grossly disproportionate response”.

Days after the shooting, Dyer said he felt it would be “premature” to release the video before the investigation was concluded.

The release of the footage appeared to be a last-minute decision.

On Wednesday afternoon, a police spokesman told the Guardian the department’s position hadn’t changed and the video would not be released.

About half an hour later, the spokesman said the chief had changed his mind and decided to let the media watch the footage.

At the news conference, Dyer said he did not want to release the footage the day after the shootings in Dallas. “Although tensions remain high at this point, not only here in Fresno but across this nation, I believe the timing is right to release this video.”

Noble’s father said that while the public would likely be angered by the footage, he hoped there would not be any violent protest. “I don’t want no riot. I don’t want anybody else hurt.”

He added: “Nothing they do can bring my kid back ... but I want those cops to pay. I won’t be satisfied until they go up on murder charges. They should be held [responsible] like anybody else who killed an innocent kid.”

Clearer viseo here http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-fresno-police-shooting-video-20160713-snap-story.html
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 11:22:01 am by eddymunster »
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