Author Topic: Today's shooting - The Sandy Hook Memorial Thread - Thoughts and Prayers  (Read 538120 times)

Offline B0151?

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #480 on: June 16, 2016, 01:33:18 am »
I wonder what percentage of murders across the US are committed by legal gun owners vs. people who are contravening gun laws in some way.

The headlines get grabbed, and RAWK's ire gets stoked, by these cases of nutters legally buying guns and then doing mass shootings. But in Chicago the vast majority of murders are committed with illegally held guns that are legally bought in Indiana or the south and then sold here.

I frequent a Chicago cop blog that is very pro concealed carry, which surprises me, but their argument is that all the trouble is caused by the illegal gun owners so more 'good guys with guns' can only help the situation. Can't see it myself.

See I think of it slightly different. How many murders are committed with guns that have been legally made?

There are only so many guns in the USA because of the massive legal trade. The more legal guns you have, the more illegal gun owners you have, the more illegal gun activity you have. It doesn't just affect the USA, it affects their neighbours too. The firearm smuggling from USA into Mexico is a huge problem, often coming from legal purchases from what I've read. Likewise on the domestic front, legally made guns end up the wrong hands pretty easily. I mean, I understand you can't go back in time, but I'm pretty sure there's no doubt that the fact America makes and sells so many guns is why they have so many guns, both legally owned and illegally owned.

That Chicago 'good guys with guns' claim seems especially daft given that from my understanding, the trouble is gang violence more than anything. Can't see your legal owner stopping gang shootouts or hits somehow.

Offline Ray K

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #481 on: June 16, 2016, 07:54:09 pm »
On a terrible day, this story made me feel a little better


What happened when an Orthodox Jewish congregation went to a gay bar to mourn Orlando
By Rabbi Shmuel Herzfel

When our synagogue heard about the horrific tragedy that took place at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, it was at the same time that we were celebrating our festival of Shavuot, which celebrates God’s giving of the Torah.

As Orthodox Jews, we don’t travel or use the Internet on the Sabbath or on holidays, such as Shavuot. But on Sunday night, as we heard the news, I announced from the pulpit that as soon as the holiday ended at 9:17 p.m. Monday, we would travel from our synagogue in Northwest Washington to a gay bar as an act of solidarity.

We just wanted to share the message that we were all in tremendous pain and that our lives were not going on as normal. Even though the holiday is a joyous occasion, I felt tears in my eyes as I recited our sacred prayers.

I had not been to a bar in more than 20 years. And I had never been to a gay bar. Someone in the congregation told me about a bar called the Fireplace, so I announced that as our destination. Afterward, I found out it was predominantly frequented by gay African Americans.

Approximately a dozen of us, wearing our kippot, or yarmulkes, went down as soon as the holiday ended. Some of the members of our group are gay, but most are not. We did not know what to expect. As we gathered outside, we saw one large, drunk man talking loudly and wildly. I wondered whether we were in the right place. Then my mother, who was with me, went up to a man who was standing on the side of the building. She told him why we were there. He broke down in tears and told us his cousin was killed at Pulse. He embraced us and invited us into the Fireplace.

We didn’t know what to expect, but it turned out that we had so much in common. We met everyone in the bar. One of the patrons told me that his stepchildren were actually bar-mitzvahed in our congregation. Another one asked for my card so that his church could come and visit. The bartender shut off all of the music in the room, and the crowd became silent as we offered words of prayer and healing. My co-clergy Maharat Ruth Friedman shared a blessing related to the holiday of Shavuot, and she lit memorial candles on the bar ledge. Then everyone in the bar put their hands around each other’s shoulders, and we sang soulful tunes. After that, one of our congregants bought a round of beer for the whole bar.

Everyone in the bar embraced each other. It was powerful and moving and real and raw.

After that we moved to the outdoor makeshift memorial service at Dupont Circle. There, too, we did not know what to expect. But as we gathered around the circle, people kept coming up to us and embracing us. One man we met there told us that his daughter sometimes prays with us. Others were visiting from Los Angeles but joined in full voice, clearly knowing the Hebrew words to the song we were singing.

As we were singing, I looked over at some gay members of our congregation and saw tears flowing down their faces. I felt the reality that we are living in a time of enormous pain. But I also felt that the night was a tremendous learning experience for me. I learned that when a rabbi and members of an Orthodox synagogue walk into a gay African American bar, it is not the opening line of a joke but an opportunity to connect; it is an opportunity to break down barriers and come together as one; it is an opportunity to learn that if we are going to survive, we all need each other.

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Offline Chakan

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #482 on: June 16, 2016, 08:00:06 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/PIFiJdw0uME" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/PIFiJdw0uME</a>

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #483 on: June 16, 2016, 08:41:15 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/PIFiJdw0uME" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/PIFiJdw0uME</a>

You gotta pertect yer thurteen year old's right ter bear arms...
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Offline OOS

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #484 on: June 16, 2016, 11:34:58 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/PIFiJdw0uME" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/PIFiJdw0uME</a>

Surely you can't walk into a gun show, and simply buy a gun like that?
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Offline exiledintheUSA

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #485 on: June 16, 2016, 11:36:43 pm »
Surely you can't walk into a gun show, and simply buy a gun like that?

Ooooh, you want a bet?
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Offline Crosby Nick

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #486 on: June 16, 2016, 11:40:42 pm »
I knew the laws but still, when you see that video it's absolutely nuts.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #487 on: June 17, 2016, 04:43:56 am »
Surely you can't walk into a gun show, and simply buy a gun like that?

In South Carolina I can buy 2 or 3 guns with no background check. I'm not even a citizen yet.

Offline Redallover11

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #488 on: June 17, 2016, 05:00:55 am »
That video gives me the chills.

Offline BER

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #489 on: June 17, 2016, 12:42:15 pm »
Do individual states have the power to ban guns the same way they are legalising marijuana?

Offline diggerbarnes0

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #490 on: June 17, 2016, 12:57:47 pm »
Is it really a big problem ?

11k deaths a year from a population of 300 million people with 350 million guns Is actually a tiny amount.

Offline ericthered10

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #491 on: June 17, 2016, 01:17:27 pm »
Is it really a big problem ?

11k deaths a year from a population of 300 million people with 350 million guns Is actually a tiny amount.
It's about three times that number who die from gun deaths, and even for homicide only, about 2-3 times the death rate of other western nations.

Offline Craig S

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #492 on: June 17, 2016, 01:17:53 pm »
Is it really a big problem ?

11k deaths a year from a population of 300 million people with 350 million guns Is actually a tiny amount.

I think your figures are only ones classed as homicides aren't they? Not including suicides & accidents.
The homicide rate with a gun is 30 times higher than the UK. They have the highest suicide rate with a gun, in the world. 60% of all murders in the US are using a gun, it's 10% in the UK.

Offline diggerbarnes0

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #493 on: June 17, 2016, 01:49:44 pm »
ye that was just actuall homicides, I don't think suicides really matters does it ? I mean those people who want to end their lives would then just jump in front of a train or whatever other method If they are set on doing it.

Possible argument to say it better to top yourself with a gun so as not to affect train driver, buss driver ?

I don't think guns will ever be banned in America simply because the figures show that a massive proportion of people are responsible with them.

There were 500 deaths last year in the uk form guns. That figure is alarming considering we are not allowed them here.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #494 on: June 17, 2016, 01:58:37 pm »
Do individual states have the power to ban guns the same way they are legalising marijuana?

No.  You can't ban something that is a constitutionally guaranteed right.  Whether you agree with it or not.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #495 on: June 17, 2016, 02:12:23 pm »
Is it really a big problem ?

11k deaths a year from a population of 300 million people with 350 million guns Is actually a tiny amount.

Nearly 50 people were gunned down in a nightclub the other day. Children have been massacred just for going to school. People have been massacred going to the cinema or even to church.

Yes, it's a big problem.
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Offline Craig S

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #496 on: June 17, 2016, 02:35:15 pm »
I don't think suicides really matters does it ? I mean those people who want to end their lives would then just jump in front of a train or whatever other method If they are set on doing it.

No that's not true. Most people that attempt or consider it are not "set on it".  It's usually an act of desperation, when someone is at their lowest point. If a firearm is available, then they can act there and then.
“Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”

This study found a link between gun ownership and the suicide rate (that's the overall suicide rate): https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/magazine/guns-and-suicide/


Offline ericthered10

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #497 on: June 17, 2016, 03:23:23 pm »
No.  You can't ban something that is a constitutionally guaranteed right.  Whether you agree with it or not.
True of course. The language isn't watertight at all, though. We mostly have the Heller decision (5-4 vote with conservative majority judges) to thank for the individual being given the right to bear arms outside of the preface about a well-regulated militia. Until just 8 years ago, that individual right for citizens was not necessarily a given. That said, you certainly can ban certain types of guns (assault rifles esp) and regulate in other ways without infringing on the right. It's not as if we don't have rules and regulations specifying aspects of other amendments.

Offline Thush

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #498 on: June 17, 2016, 06:12:20 pm »
Just to add a little more colour, there was a recent attempt at a filibuster [senators continually talking to delay other legislation] to force action on gun control. These senators talked for over 15 hours non-stop. In those 15 hours, there were 38 shootings and 48 deaths from guns.

In 15 hours.

Open the pic and keep on scrolling...






Source: http://www.vox.com/2016/6/16/11952166/filibuster-gun-control-shootings
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 09:52:02 am by Thush »

Offline KiNki

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #499 on: June 17, 2016, 06:27:32 pm »
Is it really a big problem ?

11k deaths a year from a population of 300 million people with 350 million guns Is actually a tiny amount.

11k in peace time, not content with shooting the shite out of each other in the land of the free, they are also the biggest sellers of guns around the globe, the numbers of deaths unaccounted for, and the shooting of our own mp in west yorkshire, was aided and abetted by the fuckwits in the USA giving illustrations on how to make your own guns and ammo.

Yes it's a problem.

Offline SP

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #500 on: June 17, 2016, 08:13:06 pm »
3,000 died in 9/11. Does that make it a tiny amount not worth bothering with?

Offline Romeo Sensini

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #501 on: June 17, 2016, 10:37:56 pm »
3,000 died in 9/11. Does that make it a tiny amount not worth bothering with?
On that note, we have spent close to a trillion dollars in Homeland Security and passed several unconstitutional regulations to prevent domestic terror attacks, yet when it comes to preventing domestic gun deaths, one side wants to do absolutely nothing to address the problem.


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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #502 on: June 18, 2016, 02:47:23 am »

And all the world is football shaped, It's just for me to kick in space. And I can see, hear, smell, touch, taste.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #503 on: June 18, 2016, 03:29:02 am »
There were 500 deaths last year in the uk form guns. That figure is alarming considering we are not allowed them here.

Where on Earth are you getting that figure from? Do you mean 50? There's absolutely no way it's even near 500.


Offline TheTeflonJohn

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #505 on: June 18, 2016, 05:34:48 am »
Is it really a big problem ?

11k deaths a year from a population of 300 million people with 350 million guns Is actually a tiny amount.
11 thousand people killed and you question if it`s a problem?

It doesn't matter the size of the nation, if you put 11 thousand people together and  physically looked at the size of the gathering you may have a different question.

That`s would be a hell of a lot of people killed by guns in a nation of 30 million or 300 million.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #506 on: June 18, 2016, 08:16:07 am »
US Figures so far in 2016.

Total Number of Incidents 24,068

Number of Deaths 6,177
Number of Injuries 12,603

Number of Children (age 0-11) Killed/Injured 260
Number of Teens (age 12-17) Killed/Injured1 1,318

Mass Shooting 141


Home Invasion 1,008
Defensive Use 738
Accidental Shooting 1,065


Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

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Offline Only Me

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #507 on: June 19, 2016, 03:31:37 am »
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-vineland-premium-outlets-fight-20160618-story.html

They are jumpy as fuck here in Orlando.

Currently on hols and was with Mrs Only Me, our daughter and daughters boyfriend doing a bit of shopping.

Have been to this mall loads of times on previous visits, it's a well known local landmark on International Drive. We were in the Disney shop when all hell broke loose. The "commotion"  mentioned in the above report doesn't begin to cover it.

This lad ran in to the shop shouting "gun gun" and people were screaming, trampling each other and running for their lives. We all ended up locked in the service corridors behind the shops for half an hour with no clue what was goin on.

What was noticeable was that the Yanks were fucking petrified - literally howling crying and shaking with fear. One poor woman had lost one of her two young kids during the incident too and she was obviously inconsolable.

The Brits were all looking more nonplussed than scared.  After a few minutes it actually got annoying. One particularly hysterical little prick kept scaring the kids by screaming at them to shut up when they spoke "in case we all get killed"

Couldn't stand it any more, and not sure if he actually knew what "shut the fuck up soft lad or you'll be the only one getting fucking killed" meant, but it seemed to do the trick and it drew a few sniggers and shakes of the head from the other Brits present.

Very very odd experience, all things considered.

The aftermath was just as weird-the place was deserted with shoes, shopping, food, all kinds just discarded everywhere.

In the Car park  there were people crying everywhere, and there were dozens of armed police on the scene too.

All this from a chair hitting the deck quite loudly. And they still won't enact gun control.

Fucking eejits  these Americans.



« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 03:38:45 am by Only Me »

Offline TheShanklyGates

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #508 on: June 19, 2016, 04:20:36 am »
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-vineland-premium-outlets-fight-20160618-story.html

They are jumpy as fuck here in Orlando.

Currently on hols and was with Mrs Only Me, our daughter and daughters boyfriend doing a bit of shopping.

Have been to this mall loads of times on previous visits, it's a well known local landmark on International Drive. We were in the Disney shop when all hell broke loose. The "commotion"  mentioned in the above report doesn't begin to cover it.

This lad ran in to the shop shouting "gun gun" and people were screaming, trampling each other and running for their lives. We all ended up locked in the service corridors behind the shops for half an hour with no clue what was goin on.

What was noticeable was that the Yanks were fucking petrified - literally howling crying and shaking with fear. One poor woman had lost one of her two young kids during the incident too and she was obviously inconsolable.

The Brits were all looking more nonplussed than scared.  After a few minutes it actually got annoying. One particularly hysterical little prick kept scaring the kids by screaming at them to shut up when they spoke "in case we all get killed"

Couldn't stand it any more, and not sure if he actually knew what "shut the fuck up soft lad or you'll be the only one getting fucking killed" meant, but it seemed to do the trick and it drew a few sniggers and shakes of the head from the other Brits present.

Very very odd experience, all things considered.

The aftermath was just as weird-the place was deserted with shoes, shopping, food, all kinds just discarded everywhere.

In the Car park  there were people crying everywhere, and there were dozens of armed police on the scene too.

All this from a chair hitting the deck quite loudly. And they still won't enact gun control.

Fucking eejits  these Americans.





None of that would have happened if the other chairs had been armed.
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Offline Ziltoid

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #509 on: June 20, 2016, 11:28:46 am »
None of that would have happened if the other chairs had been armed.

An Arm(ed)Chair?

Offline moondog

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #510 on: June 20, 2016, 05:05:48 pm »
Electric chair the only solution?

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #511 on: June 20, 2016, 06:43:45 pm »
ye that was just actuall homicides, I don't think suicides really matters does it ? I mean those people who want to end their lives would then just jump in front of a train or whatever other method If they are set on doing it.

Possible argument to say it better to top yourself with a gun so as not to affect train driver, buss driver ?

I don't think guns will ever be banned in America simply because the figures show that a massive proportion of people are responsible with them.

There were 500 deaths last year in the uk form guns. That figure is alarming considering we are not allowed them here.
Alarming but not true .
http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/murders-fatal-violence-uk.html

Offline KiNki

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #512 on: June 20, 2016, 09:10:28 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/RolEI5n4Jxs&amp;showsearch=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/RolEI5n4Jxs&amp;showsearch=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1</a>

Days until speech 17.....

Offline Fiasco

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #513 on: June 20, 2016, 09:14:54 pm »
Alarming but not true .
http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/murders-fatal-violence-uk.html

Yeah, I thought that might be the case. 500 was obviously a stupid figure.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #514 on: June 21, 2016, 12:13:07 am »
https://twitter.com/ap/status/745027121756659712

BREAKING: Senate blocks Democratic bill to ban the sale of guns to suspected terrorists.
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Offline lindylou100

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #515 on: June 21, 2016, 12:16:29 am »
"Senate rejects four separate gun control measures following mass shooting in Orlando"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/politics/senate-gun-votes-congress/index.html?adkey=bn


This is why most americans opinion of congress ranks somewhere between cockroaches and colonoscopies.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #516 on: June 21, 2016, 12:46:13 am »
They really are a country of fucking morons

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #517 on: June 21, 2016, 12:46:33 am »
"Senate rejects four separate gun control measures following mass shooting in Orlando"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/politics/senate-gun-votes-congress/index.html?adkey=bn

This is why most americans opinion of congress ranks somewhere between cockroaches and colonoscopies.
why do they elect them then?

Offline Redcap

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #518 on: June 21, 2016, 01:05:14 am »
https://twitter.com/ap/status/745027121756659712

BREAKING: Senate blocks Democratic bill to ban the sale of guns to suspected terrorists.

How does one even justify this? I can't even.

Offline lindylou100

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Re: Yet another mass shooting in America.
« Reply #519 on: June 21, 2016, 02:41:08 am »
why do they elect them then?

It's just my opinion but for a whole host of reasons, some local issues some national, some because the voter has always voted democrat/Republican, some don't know they are taking money from the gun lobby, some do and dont care because guns aren't the issue most important to them and said politician has a good track record on the issue they do care about and yes some because of their stance against gun control and other forms of government regulation. Once the politician is elected though the voter has little say in how they behave hence why there is so much anger from the electorate about congress inability to get things done in the last 8 years and being in the pockets of big business.

Why did the britsh public vote in another conservative government despite their slashing public services and disability benefits? I suspect self interest played a big role. It's the same the world over.