Topic: Liverpool 1 - 1 Norwich

[Gerrard#1]

Eh? How did anything I said imply that?

There's no reason why domestic cup runs should impact league results. European, yes, though it's still overstated (a good squad should be enough to win most games in the PL, regardless of who you played midweek).

Your goalpost-shifting seems to be dragging me into defending something I haven't actually said. My point was only that the sacking of Dalglish (wrong as it may have been) wasn't, I think, because FSG weren't interested in success, but the opposite - thinking Dalglish wasn't going to bring success. Whether they then made the right choice in Rodgers is also then a different matter. But really, rehashing the argument over the Dalglish sacking three and a half years later is completely pointless.

I disagree with their definition of success then. Can Brendan put 2nd place on his CV?

[Carra-ton]

What bugs me is that Rodgers has no idea what he wants from specific roles in the team. He plays Gomez there for 3 games, then decides he doesn't want that. Also, what does he want from his centre mids, he doesn't seem to know what his midfield identity is.
 I thought when he signed Milner, that he would be using Milner and a creative midfielder as a two in the engine room, but then suddenly he wants a defensive mid, and now Lucas has become indispensable.

He has lots of attacking mids but no width, and he played Bentekke alone up top, but then no one provides any movement, and we are stuck. Yesterday, Sturridge, just by his mere presence playing on the edge of the last line was able to provide movement which helped our game.
What is the plan to provide that movement, to make the team move as per the play, I see none. Players usually are in static positions. The addition of Ings, Moreno and Sturridge, helped us, but then that is because those players usually do that by their nature, doesn't seem to be any design to our methodology of playing football when in possession.

The team shape is so static at times during this season, we are crowded out, all over the pitch, yesterday was better, where Lucas stepped past the first press at times, but then this was Norwich, a better team would be harder to beat the press against, not to mention, harder to get the ball back from.

I think the only thing that our team does well is press in midfield, but there is no plan what to do when we get the ball, what is the next transition. How do roles change when we get the ball? Forget, pass and move, or tiki-taka, or juego de possesion, we need to show up for the pass much better.

Finally it is the finishing, this is the hardest part of coaching to achieve, and almost all managers depends on the natural skill of players to finish the move, blaming the players when the chance is lost. However, some inventive coaches such as Wenger or Guardiola(although he has always been blessed by amazing finishers), are able to restrict shooting to positions which are better to score from. Reaching that kind of level is a pipe dream. We are always shooting in a snatch snapshot kind of mode.

Yesterday we crafted a couple of good opportunities, but Coutinho freezing when two on one, tells me that the situation was something we don't practice much, when we should have players knowing what to do in those situations, those are basics of attacking, basics which can negate the final defender and the keeper which are coachable.

Our corners are pathetic, there is no movement and the delivery is extremely poor, again these are coachable things. Just see how much West Ham are improved at corners in the short while that Bilic has come in.

[redmark]

I disagree with their definition of success then. Can Brendan put 2nd place on his CV?

Sorry, I didn't know FSG had the ability to time travel before making decisions. FSG out!

[ArchieC]

IMO our best performance so far this season and it ended up 1-1.  Goes to show where we are at the moment.  I'll always back the manager and the team to get it right.  I just don't like people who say things like "I hope we lose so he gets the sack".   That to me is not a comment from a true supporter.  Back the club to get it right!

[redmark]

Just a joke of course but if Rodgers goes we need to make sure a plan is in place for the above not to happen. A manager suited to the players we have, I've had enough seasons of transition to do me a lifetime as a supporter.

FSG's one major failing - not establishing a DoF, who would then ensure that a new manager fitted the philosophy and (as far as possible) did not therefore need to rip up the playing squad to establish his own style.

[Keita Success]

Why gave stopped working on set pieces, or at least, why have set-pieces stopped working for us?

[Caffeine]

We've lost ten top quality players since Rodgers has been here. Whole spine ripped out of the team. The replacements deserve a chance and more time to bed in and rebuild, honestly.

Is this the same ten that Timbo identified that included Enrique and Johnson?

[Cid]

Eh? How did anything I said imply that?

There's no reason why domestic cup runs should impact league results. European, yes, though it's still overstated (a good squad should be enough to win most games in the PL, regardless of who you played midweek).

Your goalpost-shifting seems to be dragging me into defending something I haven't actually said. My point was only that the sacking of Dalglish (wrong as it may have been) wasn't, I think, because FSG weren't interested in success, but the opposite - thinking Dalglish wasn't going to bring success. Whether they then made the right choice in Rodgers is also then a different matter. But really, rehashing the argument over the Dalglish sacking three and a half years later is completely pointless.

I'll give you 3 reasons why Kenny was sacked and to this day I won't believe anything else was a factor.  These reasons are actually best summated with 3 names.

1) Carroll
2) Suarez
3) Evra

After Carroll they wouldn't trust him with money (even though his signings almost won us the league.

After the Evra/Suarez affair they couldn't trust him with our reputation. We all know Suarez was not guilty but the approach Kenny took, and especially those shirts, showed how out of touch he was with modern thinking. He still had it on the pitch but PR was a minefield for him.

[anything else]

We all know Suarez was not guilty

[redmark]

I'll give you 3 reasons why Kenny was sacked and to this day I won't believe anything else was a factor.  These reasons are actually best summated with 3 names.

1) Carroll
2) Suarez
3) Evra

After Carroll they wouldn't trust him with money (even though his signings almost won us the league.

After the Evra/Suarez affair they couldn't trust him with our reputation. We all know Suarez was not guilty but the approach Kenny took, and especially those shirts, showed how out of touch he was with modern thinking. He still had it on the pitch but PR was a minefield for him.

I'm not arguing any of that, but against a specific flawed piece of logic, which opened up a twilight zone I wish I hadn't bothered with .

[Trim0582]

It's been said many a time already, but the performance, though good, is somewhat meaningless. We were always likely to look good against a newly promoted, average Norwich side at Anfield. It in no way means that will translate to the Villa match, or Spurs and Everton.

The most galling thing being that a very poor Utd side with a manager supposedly under threat are sitting second. This is Rodgers' fourth year and he should be capitalising on the poor performances of our top four rivals, instead we are using them as an excuse.

Can, Lucas and Milner all in midfield, that's about as defensive and safe as it can get for us, we didn't finish our changes but the team was obviously picked to breakup play and defend, actually scoring goals was a secondary concern. It seemed all about not conceding, which we bloodywell did anyway.

Is that the kind of safe formation you want to see against a Norwich team at home? Awful.

In a first season or perhaps a second season the transition and rebuilding line is fine, but over three years in, commenting on a performance that clawed a single point from Norwich is dross. Even if the performance was a level above the eye rape we have been served up on so frequent a basis of late.

[cornelius]

To those digging their heels in, very admirable but wake up, this only ends one way.

[Kelvinlfc]

Milner should be nowhere near corners or free kicks

Our finishing yesterday was woeful also, Migs at fault for the goal but a quality save to stop us going 2-1 down.

[Ski]

At the final whistle yesterday was so angry I couldn't talk to anyone in the house for hours afterwards.

Wanted to put my fist through my laptop screen.

Still incredibly frustrated even now. Grrrrrr!!

[RideTheWalrus]

Milner should be nowhere near corners or free kicks

Our finishing yesterday was woeful also, Migs at fault for the goal but a quality save to stop us going 2-1 down.

Problem is, who else can take them? Hendo can't, Coutinho can't. Wonder if Firminho can?

[Fordy]

At the final whistle yesterday was so angry I couldn't talk to anyone in the house for hours afterwards.

Wanted to put my fist through my laptop screen.

Still incredibly frustrated even now. Grrrrrr!!

Bet you can punch better than our awful keeper.

[RideTheWalrus]

Bet you can punch better than our awful keeper.

Awful is harsh. Not good enough is more accurate.

[ShayGuevara]

FSG's one major failing - not establishing a DoF, who would then ensure that a new manager fitted the philosophy and (as far as possible) did not therefore need to rip up the playing squad to establish his own style.

Yes, although I think they will bring in someone tactically similar and our approach will still be pressure based. If not we require a whole new midfield.

Klopp seems tailor made. Tuchel seems to have tightened them up signifcantly though so you'd wonder are there even better managers than Klopp in Germany, maybe Schmidt.

[RedBeast]

Despite the result, I thought that it was a far better performance which can be built upon. The important thing is to build upon it. Strangely, the improvement just made me more angry at Rodgers. Even when we were one up and looked like scoring more, I was really annoyed.

Why is this so hard? Play people in their proper positions and play the best players in those positions. Imagine playing two natural forwards up front. A left back at left back. Sakho over Lovren. The thing that annoys me, is that Rodgers seems to have to exhaust all of his "masterstroke" experiments before adopting the simplest solutions which every man and his dog have been calling for.

Unfortunately, I don't trust him to not revert to a 433 with Gómez at left back next week.

[SlowRap]

At the final whistle yesterday was so angry I couldn't talk to anyone in the house for hours afterwards.

Wanted to put my fist through my laptop screen.

Still incredibly frustrated even now. Grrrrrr!!

Why? The result although disappointing is hardly the end of the world especially when you put it into the context of the league where everyone is dropping points to anyone, and the performance yesterday was good overall. We should have won with better finishing and better decision making in the final 3rd, but we created chances, had over 20 shots on goal. Loads of positives from yesterday’s performance.

[leivapool]

Problem is, who else can take them? Hendo can't, Coutinho can't. Wonder if Firminho can?

Flippin heck,  even Lucas can beat the first man when he takes corners........let him take them,  what would we lose exactly??

[JJ Red]

But how are more defenders leading to score more goals? We have scored 4 goals. How do we get Sturridge, Benteke, Firmino and Coutinho on the field together with 3 at the back? If we are not planning do then why the flying fuck did we pay 60m for them 2?

Had to just chime in because this is a very good point. If we have now ditched the back 4 there is no real way (that i can see anyway) for us to fit both Firmino and Coutinho into the side and maintain a balanced side. I really hope we had a very clear idea of how we were going to use Firmino when we signed him!

[socrates the sophist]

I want to discuss elements where I think the team is failing, which in turn is leading to our struggle. Unfortunately they are the same problems as last season. Which shows that buying new players doesn't solve anything.

There are many, many issues I have with the team but I want to focus on one aspect that were abundantly clear in yesterday's match: Our build up play.

Build Up Play

Yesterday Rodgers decided to play 3-4-1-2. Now it is basically a 4-4-2 diamond, but with the defensive midfielder moving to the CB position and the full back located higher up the pitch.
The problem with that is that it took the movement out of our build up play, making us easier to press.

http://footyroom.com/liverpool-1-1-norwich-city-2-2015-09/

@ 0:55 You see 5 liverpool players: Emre Can, Lucas, Sturridge, Milner and Clyne. You notice how Emre Can is struggling to find the pass. This is mainly because of our formation. In a 4-4-2 diamond it would be Skrtel carrying the ball, Emre at the tip of Norwich's center circle and Lucas at the tip of ours. Milner and Sturridge exchanging position and Clyne on the half way line.

In that scenario Skrtel can play it to Clyne, Sturridge runs the channel, Coutinho would take up the resulting space (like Silva does) and with Tettey tracking Coutinho, Emre Can can push up in the resulting free space. That's the sort of movement we lacked yesterday.

@ 1:49 we have Sakho, Emre and Skrtel on the same line. Lucas drops in to receive the ball and plays it back to Sakho who finally finds Coutinho who manages to get the ball out. The problem with that is we are having Coutinho far deeper than where he should be (which explains why he was exhausted at the end, he ran more than any other player)

Now also notice how easy it is for Jerome to mark Skrtel. In a 4-4-2 diamond, Skrtel would be positioned higher, then once Jerome tracks Sakho, Skrtel drops in to receive the ball. By playing 3-4-1-2 Rodgers took away the necessary movements to make our build up play easier.

@ 5:55 another example a very clear example, Moreno gets caught up. Now you see how our three are spread wide as a result of the full backs pushing up. Sakho is uncomfortable dealing with a difficult ball from Skrtel. They lose two or three 50:50s and Norwich miss a sitter.
Now in a 4-4-2 diamond, It would be Moreno in Sakho's position. Skrtel and Sakho tucked in the center. You would have Emre covering the space between Lucas and Sakho in the video (so a midfield three)

@5:59 you clearly see Norwich having a 3-2 in our half, that's because this is a mutated 4-4-2 diamond and in that formation Emre Can would have been the third player.

There are much clearer example for those who watched the full match For example @1:51 of the match, you will see how Milner was pressed and lost the ball at the center of the pitch. The point of having attacking full back is that they occupy the free space on the wings at the right moment. Having them up their from the start just suffocates our build up play. You can see in that clip Milner turned and looked to pass the ball to the right when the ball was intercepted. But there was no one on the right any way because Clyne was all the way up.

Having an extra center back and the full backs very high up also made it easier for Norwich to press Milner with three players. It was 4 v 2 for Norwich everytime in the center circle. Now if you do not crowd the center of the pitch, those attacking full backs become useless.

@ 3:02 Benteke retreats all the way to receive a pass from Sakho. May be Rodgers is thinking he is too clever and this is movement, but Norwich would have liked nothing better than Benteke that deep. Now in the diamond two, it would be Skrtel five yards into the DM position, and Lucas being the shuffler on the left (who would receive the ball from Sakho)

Sakho ended up passing the ball to Clyne and you can see how easily Norwich Shuffled across to cover the space. Because Clyne's position that high in the build up serves no purpose.

Now I can show may be more than seven other examples. But the point I was trying to make is it is much better to add a defensive midfielder to our three and pull the full backs back 30 yards than have Sturridge, Benteke and Coutinho retreat to get the ball from deep. 

[Working Class Hen-Pecked Hero]

If we play the diamond with Phil in one of the two CMs as it where you could accommodate Firmino in the number 10, again we'd need to trust the back 4 which is something we have to be very careful doings

[Nazi Dickhead]

Why? The result although disappointing is hardly the end of the world especially when you put it into the context of the league where everyone is dropping points to anyone, and the performance yesterday was good overall. We should have won with better finishing and better decision making in the final 3rd, but we created chances, had over 20 shots on goal. Loads of positives from yesterday’s performance.

Because we were playing Norwich at home. Because of our start to the season. Because we currently sit 13th and look like we belong there. Im actually of the opinion there is an undereaction to the club at the moment. We are in real trouble.

[bodhisattva]

Had to just chime in because this is a very good point. If we have now ditched the back 4 there is no real way (that i can see anyway) for us to fit both Firmino and Coutinho into the side and maintain a balanced side. I really hope we had a very clear idea of how we were going to use Firmino when we signed him!

You could use Firmino as a 2nd striker just off the main guy, if we play this way especially against "weaker" teams at home then Coutinho should be part of the midfield 2 and then you can play Firmino at the tip of the midfield ...

[redmark]

Had to just chime in because this is a very good point. If we have now ditched the back 4 there is no real way (that i can see anyway) for us to fit both Firmino and Coutinho into the side and maintain a balanced side. I really hope we had a very clear idea of how we were going to use Firmino when we signed him!

And Benteke, and Sturridge, and Ings (who looks like our best striker at the moment) and Lallana (who's shown touches of good form in the last couple of games). Oh, and Origi.

[socrates the sophist]

If we play the diamond with Phil in one of the two CMs as it where you could accommodate Firmino in the number 10, again we'd need to trust the back 4 which is something we have to be very careful doings

The beauty about the diamond is that we can adopt it based on the opposition. We can have Coutinho and Firmino together against Norwich for instance. But when we play Chelsea away it can be Lucas, Emre, Milner and Henderson for instance.

It is one of the few midfield shapes that is really very flexible to the type of player in the position. Unlike for example a midfield three or a midfield two where there are set duties that if neglected would compromise the team's shape.

[Anywhichwayicant]

Why? The result although disappointing is hardly the end of the world especially when you put it into the context of the league where everyone is dropping points to anyone, and the performance yesterday was good overall. We should have won with better finishing and better decision making in the final 3rd, but we created chances, had over 20 shots on goal. Loads of positives from yesterday’s performance.

Why are we taking comfort in others dropping points? We should be looking to take advantage, not just saying 'oh well, at least Chelsea dropped points too'. Loser mentality.

[redmark]

You could use Firmino as a 2nd striker just off the main guy, if we play this way especially against "weaker" teams at home then Coutinho should be part of the midfield 2 and then you can play Firmino at the tip of the midfield diamond...

Absolutely. You could even make an argument for a midfield two of Coutinho/Lallana yesterday, if you've got three at the back and wingbacks with the recovery pace of Clyne and Moreno. There has to be some bravery and attacking intent against relegation fodder at home.

[SlowRap]

Because we were playing Norwich at home. Because of our start to the season. Because we currently sit 13th and look like we belong there. Im actually of the opinion there is an undereaction to the club at the moment. We are in real trouble.

We really aren't, we're in all competitions and something like 6 points away from top 4 with 30 games to go.

Why are we taking comfort in others dropping points? We should be looking to take advantage, not just saying 'oh well, at least Chelsea dropped points too'. Loser mentality.

Contrary it shows the competitiveness of this league

[Nazi Dickhead]

We really aren't, we're in all competitions and something like 6 points away from top 4 with 30 games to go.

Contrary it shows the competitiveness of this league

So you see no cause for concern?

[Anywhichwayicant]

We really aren't, we're in all competitions and something like 6 points away from top 4 with 30 games to go.

Contrary it shows the competitiveness of this league

No, it shows that the top teams are not so mighty.

[carling]

With a better manager we could do great things.

Currently we're a million miles away.

Great things as in make some decent signings?  I don't see this squad itself doing anything 'great' ... better than what we saw against Norwich maybe, but I wouldn't expect Klopp or Ancelotti or anyone else to get us doing to Norwich what we did when Suarez was around.  Namely because we don't have players like him and Gerrard  anymore.

[Michel]

Why? The result although disappointing is hardly the end of the world especially when you put it into the context of the league where everyone is dropping points to anyone, and the performance yesterday was good overall. We should have won with better finishing and better decision making in the final 3rd, but we created chances, had over 20 shots on goal. Loads of positives from yesterday’s performance.

Which teams do you think are our competition for top4?

[Mutton Geoff]

The problem with modern day footy forums and post match phones ins is that they are full of the all knowing, all knowlegable, football expects. During the match or within a minute of the final whistle, they have dissected the game into a million pieces and reckon they have all the answers...cos they know best.

Never mind the managers and back room staff, who see players train/play everyday, they see players work alone, in pairs, partnerships and in systems. They see players work ethic, their attitude, fitness levels, know their diet and personal life inside out.

They have dossiers on their opponents, and have studied their strenghts and weakeness's in every department, right down to their subs that we've probably never even heard of, but never mind all that professional bollocks, cos some fans know better it seems.

Makes me laugh when some fans spout the latest rent a cliche, 'there's no easy game in the prem 'take each game as it comes' 'don't underestimate any team' 'form goes out the window' etc etc, then follow that up with ' should be twatting these 5-0' etc etc if the team doesn't meet their expectations.

In the good old days when things were not going well,of course we got pissed off, we voiced our opinions and solutions but in general took a bad result on the chin, went the pub, forgot all about it and moved on, and made sure the team knew we where right behind them every time we played...we didn't pretend we knew all the answers.

Because in general we stuck behind the team, cos that's what decent 'supporters' did, and LFC had loads of them, 'best fans in the world' and all that,

The 'C' in LFC remember stands for club, and that's what we used to feel like a member of, a special club..LFC. And like any decent club, you stuck together, saw bad times through, offer support when needed most and so on.

These days, it's toys out the pram time,as soon as the going gets tough it seems.

Take today, Coutinho plays the sensible/ easy ball to Ings for instance..surely we score, Ings goes crazy, the Kop go crazy, we go on to win the game, leap frog Chelsea and Everton in the prcocess and end the day 5 points of the top,on level points with Arsenal...suddenly things don't look too bad.

But he didn't play that pass, we drew, so in some fans eyes 'we're shite' 'Rogers is shite' 'Rodgers out' etc etc, suddenly the world's a terrible place.

Fine margins in my opinion,football always has been and always will be full of them.

It's 6 games into season, it's still very early days, we have a young manager and a young team,let's get behind them and help them improve and grow in confidence...then let's see where this season takes us in the League and the 3 cup competitions.

Who knows with a bit of patience and the return of the '12th man we might just just see this sticky patch through and come out with a trophy/top 4 finish after all!

good post

[peachybum]

To those digging their heels in, very admirable but wake up, this only ends one way.

Aye. The next couple of months until the trigger is pulled is going to be depressing.

[Fordy]

Great things as in make some decent signings?  I don't see this squad itself doing anything 'great' ... better than what we saw against Norwich maybe, but I wouldn't expect Klopp or Ancelotti or anyone else to get us doing to Norwich what we did when Suarez was around.  Namely because we don't have players like him and Gerrard  anymore.

No, but no down we would have a better chance of winning the game.

Let's not fall for this performance rubbish. Football is about results.

[Mutton Geoff]

No, but no down we would have a better chance of winning the game.

Let's not fall for this performance rubbish. Football is about results.

so then if it is only results that count  why when we win lets say Bournemouth people still bitch about the performance you cant have it both ways Fordy but i know you will try

[peachybum]

If we play the diamond with Phil in one of the two CMs as it where you could accommodate Firmino in the number 10, again we'd need to trust the back 4 which is something we have to be very careful doings

They did alright playing that way 2 years ago with Phil on the left of the diamond and Sterling at #10. And maybe there wouldn't be so much pressure on the back 4 if the team could score more than once. Imagine going into every game knowing if you concede just once then the 3 points are gone.