Author Topic: End of season round table debate (*)  (Read 72838 times)

Offline Miltonred

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2015, 12:57:27 AM »
Some good stuff in this thread so far, hopefully I can make sense with my contribution even for those who disagree.

We have the wrong people at the club in many, many roles. Ignoring the ownership for a moment, Ian Ayre is a man doing a job he is wholly unqualified for, he really should have a much smaller role focused on commercial activity. Brendan despite a wonderful effort last season, is proving incapable of making the next step and really producing a strong team front to back. And the combination of the two plus whoever else is throwing their ideas into the mix for transfers, is resulting in a large number of players who are wrong for the club.

Years ago I think it was Paisley who said that we want o have the best of everything at the club, we want to serve the best ea and best pies at half time (it was probably Shanks), I just think we have lost that idea, and we have settled for "potential". A manager who could potentially be good, and players who could potentially be good. How can a bunch of people whose journeys are so short, have the first clue what true greatness looks like?

You can pick out the flaws one by one, but whats the point? It comes down to this - are we a club who wants the greatest of everything or not? If we are then we should start with a CEO who takes a backseat on football matters, and appoint a manager who is capable of running the whole thing back to front. 

I won't get into lists of who is or isn't "available", because its a snapshot, but until we do I have every expectation that we will continue in this vain for the foreseeable future.

Offline Stussy

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2015, 02:08:36 AM »

Being manager of Liverpool FC may well be an impossible job.

Nowhere else is there such a disparity between aspiration and expectations and an institutional inability to achieve the dreams planted in us by our historical achievement.

That institutional inability is both material -- in terms of our inability to compete economically with the clubs ahead of us -- and in one sense a lack of institutional intelligence, making the wrong decisions, that have crippled us for the last quarter of a century as we have basically been in a cycle of relative decline.

So the plan is that the material, institutional disadvantage gets reduced through growing commercial streams and we are making progress on that, and maybe in five or ten years (who knows when) we'll be in a position to stand eye to eye with our rivals and offer wages to players to make us a team capable of recapturing past glory.

In the meantime, the disparity persists, and the expectation between what we feel, in our bones, our heart and soul about where we should be, and our ability to achievement, a structural inability compounded by bad decisions, makes the seat of Liverpool manager almost impossible to have success.

Brendan almost achieved what would have been the most important and incredible trophy in our history given all circumstances and contexts. And yet here we are now, on the brink of wanting him away from us.

There are many reasons to be sympathetic to Brendan, there are many reasons to give him leeway and understanding, to say that he was impeded. And he was. And he was in the impossible job. And we didn't have the institutional ability to bridge the loss of Suarez, and bad luck put Sturridge out, and we didn't make relevant contingency plans, and we spent money on sub-par signings instead of difference-makers.

So yes, Brendan is not to blame entirely. But that doesn't mean its right for him to continue. There are too many accumulations of failure through this season that went beyond simple errors of judgment, they were failures that went deep and left us lifeless, listless and were unforgiveable. From the European campaign to the final sequence of the season post United. They went into the realm of humiliation and deep paralysis. And that doesn't mean we have to accept our limitations. Especially if there are managers with achievements and who have an edge, by means of insight, and savvy, that can give us the breaks we need to help us in this period in which we play catch up institutionally with those above us. For the sake of an emotional charge, I feel we need change.

Structural mediocrity, that is, a mediocrity that is near impossible to get out of, is a real danger now. Especially after the insipidity of our results. The job will remain a chalice of difficulty, because of that disparity of expectation and material disadvantage, but we have to try to improve, and change those margins as we crawl back financially and in the seat of the manager there can be improvement at present. That is one change that can be made. Not for the sake of it. But because a change would be for the better, provided we can get someone like Klopp or Ancelloti in. Because Liverpool FC should not be club where a manager trains on the job, or uses it as an arc for personal development, to learn how to play in Europe and so on. Liverpool FC should be the place where already established, great managers find their place on the managers seat. And if not available, well, that's a different question, and changes the game. So FSG are wise to play their cards close if they are contemplating change. We are subject to the circumstances we find ourselves in. But the aspiration to better is there, and even though we may despair our inability to achieve, that aspiration to improvement should fairly apply to the institution of who our manager is too, when a season like this one has ended.







« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 02:28:49 AM by Stussy »
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Offline ReeNah

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2015, 02:50:28 AM »
I think the club lacks identity at the moment.

For example; Chelsea are a team that built top to bottom as a club that's going to challenge for everything. They spend the money to buy the right players. They bring in a top top manager. The club's facilities are top notch. The owners and people who run the club all have a 'joint vision'.

They realized that last season they lacked a good goal scorer, a deep lying play maker who could link the defense and attack and a hard man in the middle who would steel up their defense. They spent what money was needed and got it right. The owners, people who run the club, the manager and the players playing on the pitch all understood the 'vision' and club 'identity' and it showed in their results.

Our club on the other hand lacks a clear vision and identity. We were a club in transition. The owners were new to the sport so would take time to adjust. They have put inexperienced people in place at the top so these inexperienced people are making inexperienced decisions. The club brings in a young manager who will most probably one day be a winning manager and we mostly buy players who will most probably become great players. We (the fans) were all satisfied to see the team improve slowly as long a we were headed in the right direction. However, last season threw a spanner in the works and suddenly we were (mistakenly) a team identified as one that could win the premier league. We lost our original vision of death by football, we made quick fix changes that eventually backfired on us. If we had more experienced people running the club, they would have realized that last season was a outlier on the statistical curve and we needed to stick to our original identity and long term plan.

We brought in players who had potential but they were suddenly expected to take us to domestic and European glory. The manager who was famed for death by football, had to look for bandaid solutions to all the leaks in our system and we were good in parts but terrible in others. The players we bought in were probably expecting one thing but they were suddenly thrust into playing in positions and systems they were never taught to play before. The 'vision' the club had was different from the one the 'manager' promised and the 'players' expected.

We need to find our team identity again. We are either a club that's looking to win the league in 3 to 5 years time or directly challenge next season. If we are looking to win it in 3 to 5 years, BR should stick around. The club need to sell the idea to the fans and we can't sell our potentially great players when they begin to become great players and winners.

OR

We need to become a club that challenges for the league from next season onward. We sign a top top manager; Klopp, Ancelloti, Rafa for example and give him a war chest to sign top top players who will take us top top of the table.

Just my 2 cents.
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Offline sempi

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2015, 05:06:38 AM »
I think the club lacks identity at the moment.

For example; Chelsea are a team that built top to bottom as a club that's going to challenge for everything. They spend the money to buy the right players. They bring in a top top manager. The club's facilities are top notch. The owners and people who run the club all have a 'joint vision'.

They realized that last season they lacked a good goal scorer, a deep lying play maker who could link the defense and attack and a hard man in the middle who would steel up their defense. They spent what money was needed and got it right. The owners, people who run the club, the manager and the players playing on the pitch all understood the 'vision' and club 'identity' and it showed in their results.

Our club on the other hand lacks a clear vision and identity. We were a club in transition. The owners were new to the sport so would take time to adjust. They have put inexperienced people in place at the top so these inexperienced people are making inexperienced decisions. The club brings in a young manager who will most probably one day be a winning manager and we mostly buy players who will most probably become great players. We (the fans) were all satisfied to see the team improve slowly as long a we were headed in the right direction. However, last season threw a spanner in the works and suddenly we were (mistakenly) a team identified as one that could win the premier league. We lost our original vision of death by football, we made quick fix changes that eventually backfired on us. If we had more experienced people running the club, they would have realized that last season was a outlier on the statistical curve and we needed to stick to our original identity and long term plan.

We brought in players who had potential but they were suddenly expected to take us to domestic and European glory. The manager who was famed for death by football, had to look for bandaid solutions to all the leaks in our system and we were good in parts but terrible in others. The players we bought in were probably expecting one thing but they were suddenly thrust into playing in positions and systems they were never taught to play before. The 'vision' the club had was different from the one the 'manager' promised and the 'players' expected.

We need to find our team identity again. We are either a club that's looking to win the league in 3 to 5 years time or directly challenge next season. If we are looking to win it in 3 to 5 years, BR should stick around. The club need to sell the idea to the fans and we can't sell our potentially great players when they begin to become great players and winners.

OR

We need to become a club that challenges for the league from next season onward. We sign a top top manager; Klopp, Ancelloti, Rafa for example and give him a war chest to sign top top players who will take us top top of the table.

Just my 2 cents.
I agree, if you take the  season we came second out of the way, then we have made progress, albeit only one place.
Its the manner of our loss of form  since the Swansea game that caused the anger.

Offline RedRush

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2015, 06:23:49 AM »
Being manager of Liverpool FC may well be an impossible job.

Nowhere else is there such a disparity between aspiration and expectations and an institutional inability to achieve the dreams planted in us by our historical achievement.

That institutional inability is both material -- in terms of our inability to compete economically with the clubs ahead of us -- and in one sense a lack of institutional intelligence, making the wrong decisions, that have crippled us for the last quarter of a century as we have basically been in a cycle of relative decline.

So the plan is that the material, institutional disadvantage gets reduced through growing commercial streams and we are making progress on that, and maybe in five or ten years (who knows when) we'll be in a position to stand eye to eye with our rivals and offer wages to players to make us a team capable of recapturing past glory.

In the meantime, the disparity persists, and the expectation between what we feel, in our bones, our heart and soul about where we should be, and our ability to achievement, a structural inability compounded by bad decisions, makes the seat of Liverpool manager almost impossible to have success.

Brendan almost achieved what would have been the most important and incredible trophy in our history given all circumstances and contexts. And yet here we are now, on the brink of wanting him away from us.

There are many reasons to be sympathetic to Brendan, there are many reasons to give him leeway and understanding, to say that he was impeded. And he was. And he was in the impossible job. And we didn't have the institutional ability to bridge the loss of Suarez, and bad luck put Sturridge out, and we didn't make relevant contingency plans, and we spent money on sub-par signings instead of difference-makers.

So yes, Brendan is not to blame entirely. But that doesn't mean its right for him to continue. There are too many accumulations of failure through this season that went beyond simple errors of judgment, they were failures that went deep and left us lifeless, listless and were unforgiveable. From the European campaign to the final sequence of the season post United. They went into the realm of humiliation and deep paralysis. And that doesn't mean we have to accept our limitations. Especially if there are managers with achievements and who have an edge, by means of insight, and savvy, that can give us the breaks we need to help us in this period in which we play catch up institutionally with those above us. For the sake of an emotional charge, I feel we need change.

Structural mediocrity, that is, a mediocrity that is near impossible to get out of, is a real danger now. Especially after the insipidity of our results. The job will remain a chalice of difficulty, because of that disparity of expectation and material disadvantage, but we have to try to improve, and change those margins as we crawl back financially and in the seat of the manager there can be improvement at present. That is one change that can be made. Not for the sake of it. But because a change would be for the better, provided we can get someone like Klopp or Ancelloti in. Because Liverpool FC should not be club where a manager trains on the job, or uses it as an arc for personal development, to learn how to play in Europe and so on. Liverpool FC should be the place where already established, great managers find their place on the managers seat. And if not available, well, that's a different question, and changes the game. So FSG are wise to play their cards close if they are contemplating change. We are subject to the circumstances we find ourselves in. But the aspiration to better is there, and even though we may despair our inability to achieve, that aspiration to improvement should fairly apply to the institution of who our manager is too, when a season like this one has ended.


Good post, but that's probably because I agree with it.

I've always felt that Brendan was the wrong appointment due to his relative inexperience. I didn't want a manager who has to learn his trade on the job. I wanted someone who can give us the immediate edge before we fall too far behind. I agree it's a good tradition to support your manager (Hodgson apart), but under the present circumstances we cannot take such chances anymore.

He asked us for three years to judge him. So here we are three years on and he's still struggling with the defensive side of the game, and has shown a complete inability to make the best of what he has at his disposal in 2014/2015 though he rightfully built the team around Suarez in 2013/2014. He's also not been good at getting the right players in for the system he wants to play beginning with wanting Clint Dempsey in instead of Sturridge, wanting rid of Hendo,  up to replacing Sakho with Lovren. So what is he really good in? How is he going to bridge the gap between us and those above? Can't defend, can't attack, can't improvise, poor at recruiting the right players, poor tactics (sometimes mind-boggling), poor substitutions and finally getting a trashing from Stoke of all teams... so how is he still considered a good manager let alone a Liverpool manager?

Anyway, enough about Rodgers. I'm sorry that I feel that way about a Liverpool manager. If he stays I hope he makes me eat my words above, because that would mean that Liverpool is successful. I'd like that.

I'm extremely concerned over our future. We really have a huge job catching up with those above us now. It's not really insurmountable though. We just have to find the cutting edge wherever we can, like how Rafa beat the La Liga giants twice, or how Diego Simeone did it with A Madrid. We have to bring in the right cutting edge players. Take the goalkeeping spot for example. Simon doesn't start attacks. He holds on to the ball every single time, by which time the opposing team is well organized while we build slowly from the back. Gone are the days of Reina delivering one long lightning quick one right to Torres' feet.. one... two... and GOAL! That's the sort of cutting edge that we need. The kind of footballing GOD that can score from our own half, like one Xabi Alonso. The kind of players who can harass and stop the other team playing and run non-stop through a brick wall like a Dirk Kuyt. The kind of players who reads and intercept the opposing team's attacks, retrieve the ball then starts off our own attacks like a Mascherano or a Momo Sissoko. We need captains in every position in the team. The 2008/2009 team had that in abundance. Reina, Carra, Agger, Skrtel, Hyypia, Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, Benayoun, Kuyt, Torres. We had a team of captains then.

We need a cutting edge manager who knows how build teams with very good spines and character and has a really good eye for talent and most importantly has the ability to attract and convince such players to join us, a manager with the personal touch and goes the extra mile for us. I've always believed that with the 2008/2009 team + Suarez (and possibly a 24 year old Sterling), we would have easily walked the league and perhaps that's why Rafa had Dalglish scout him while he was still in Ajax. Maybe that's why Rafa personally drove then 15 year old Sterling to Melwood while he was wooing him or tried to recruit a teenaged Eden Hazard for 15m.  We need a cutting edge goalkeeping coach, fitness coach, youth coach, physio room, etc. We need cutting edge everywhere else in every position in the club, from the CEO right down to the tea lady and ball boys who delay returning the ball so that our players have time to regroup. We have to find cutting edge everywhere. Leave no stone unturned.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 07:18:27 AM by RedRush »

Offline a treeless whopper

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #85 on: May 28, 2015, 09:01:11 AM »
Some great posts in here and some great contributions.

Cannot really add much to what has already been said only to summarise my thoughts that it was a poor season let down by pretty woeful transfers. Rodgers was fairly proactive but ultimately 6th, even with our squad, isnt good enough.

I want the manager to stay. I would never call for the managers head but i am sensible enough to understand that in this business that 3 years is actually a long time and some of the posts in here have started to reduce my resistance as to whether Rodgers should stay or go. I find myself criticising so many of the things he does (from what he says to his tactics and now his transfer targets) that i wonder whether my want for him to stay is just born out of being loyal to the manager rather than utmost belief that he is the right man for Liverpool Football Club.

Offline edeyj

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #86 on: May 28, 2015, 09:15:33 AM »
Agree killer.

It's in our DNA to support the man at the helm. We do this more than any other club. As supporters we will always defend our own. But we have to sometimes look at the situation dispassionately and in the cold light of day. Our previous great managers did that with the players in their charge. If they weren't good enough then they had to go. We should do the same with our management...reluctantly.

Offline SteveLFC

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #87 on: May 28, 2015, 09:55:20 AM »
To me, pretty much everything that Brendan Rodgers tried this season.. failed. Regardless of the transfer committee nonsense, he signed Balotelli. We all knew it was a gamble at the time but just go back to that Spurs away match where he linked up nicely with Sturridge. He almost scored with 3 minutes. Imagine if that had gone in and that partnership actually had a chance to blossom. The Balotelli gamble could have been seen as an inspirational move on BR's behalf. It still could next season...

Sturridge being unfit for most of the season has been a massive hit of course. It could be argued that, BR should have seen it coming and bought Remy or Bony as cover. Yes, he could have but he gambled and failed.

His signings last season had potential to hit the ground running.. Lallana had a great season with Soton, he got injured early on so was playing catch up. When he did come back we were already struggling and expected too much too soon from him. Lovren hasnt worked full stop but he was purchased because of his supposed leadership and organizational qualities. Gamble failed.

Can, Moreno and Markovic are all players with potential. I suspect we will see the benefit from those signings next season.

Lambert was always going to be the third striker used for capital 1 cup games and as a sub. Our poor showing up front this season has meant we tried to rely on him more but our system wasnt geared for him. Gamble failed.

The upshot of all these failed gambles has seen BR scrambling around looking for ways to shoehorn players into uncomfortable positions just to get some sort of system but just ended up compounding the already big problems that existed. Leading to negative spiral of low confidence and poor results.

I always said last season, you can only judge a manager  when he has gone through some bad times. BR has not come out of this looking too good unfortunately but I do also think he has been incredibly unlucky as well this season. I say give him one more chance although would not be upset if Klopp was given a chance as well.

Online Gnurglan

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #88 on: May 28, 2015, 10:34:33 AM »
Agree killer.

It's in our DNA to support the man at the helm. We do this more than any other club. As supporters we will always defend our own. But we have to sometimes look at the situation dispassionately and in the cold light of day. Our previous great managers did that with the players in their charge. If they weren't good enough then they had to go. We should do the same with our management...reluctantly.

I think there's something in this that we need to remember. We've been blessed with great managers. Some of the best in the game. It's the same with our players. We've seen great, great players. When things go to plan, when things work, the right thing to do is to stick with it. If you have a poor season, you don't have to question much. You'll treat it like a one off, because you trust what's there. You have every reason to. That's when patience is good.

When things don't work, then it might be the worst of all options to stick with it. But what to correct? That could be difficult to decide. Is it the manager? Is it the TC? Were we just unlucky? What do we keep and what do we change?

The concern I have with the first team/manager is mainly with the focus and the energy we witnessed towards the end of this season. We were not there. We were on holiday. And I think we lost our edge in more ways. One example is how we decided to take Gerrard off away against Chelsea. Why? And in his last game at Anfield, we didn't. We were losing to Crystal Palace, but had we taken Gerrard off with 2 minutes to go, it could have given us a positive memory. Fuck the game and the result, it's about appreciating Gerrard one last time. I reckon that would have been OK for many of us. We've lost this sense of awareness. Same thing in the last game. Why didn't we do anything to change the way the game was going? We allowed ourselves to be humiliated and then we made the subs at half time. The game wasn't important. We didn't care. No energy, no urgency to correct things. And it's sending the wrong signals. We could say the same about Sterling. Why was he on the bench? Why didn't he get to play? Just exclude him, or play him. It was undecisive and again, that lack of energy. We looked and acted like we didn't care. If this happens at Sunday league level, people walk away from it feeling bad. And this is the top level. It's not OK. Play a team of kids - fine. You've got a purpose with it. Play the best team and lose this way - not the same.

Do we really think that a summer break will help us fix this? Sadly, I don't.

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Offline Bergersleftpeg

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #89 on: May 28, 2015, 11:09:21 AM »
Firstly, I think that with the progress FSG have made with the stadium, the slew of new (and very generous given our on-the-pitch performance) commercial deals and the money they have made available to Rodgers, it is a bit bloody cheeky to complain about them too much.

They have made mistakes, and they desperately need to sort out the transfer policy but in terms of actual cash spent, what more could we realistically expect.

Ian Ayre definitely seems to be doing to much, and I would prefer someone with more experience of negotiating transfers handled that aspect, but the idea that Ian Ayre is somehow a big part of the problem is ridiculous. No-one was complaining about him when we did the Sturridge and Coutinho deals.

One of the biggest issues for me is that I have no idea what the manager wants the team to be. When he came, one of my concerns was that we would only be able to play one way and would struggle against park the bus sides. A lot of the criticism of his first season was that he was not "pragmatic" enough.

Well, he has certainly shown he can be flexible in approach, but perhaps it has gone too far the other way this season.
What exactly is our style? How does he want to set up?

Possession football - I don't think we have the quality in midfield for that really. Henderson and Can offer a lot, but I don't think they are that suited for a short passing game. Allen and Lucas probably are but they don't offer enough going forward to have the both of them playing all the time. Swansea played this way sort of, but didn't really have enough quality up-front to make it effective.

2014-15 smash and grab - this system was fantastic last season. All about hitting teams in transition and getting the ball to Suarez and Sturridge as quickly as possible and pressuring teams into mistakes high up the pitch. This just hasn't come off at all this season with a few exceptions. Lallana seemed a good signing for this set up and Markovic has the pace, but without top strikers this system is doomed to failure. If we really are planning on spending all our dosh on Benteke is this really the best system. He is no slouch, but his game is more about being the focal point of attack rather than relentless energy.

From the rumoured signings, it looks like we could be aiming at a Swansea-ish system with a big strong forward and wide forwards running off him, but where would that leave Coutinho?

Loads and loads of questions and precious few answers. It is great having a plan B, but surely you need to make sure you have a boss plan A first and spend a load of money making it as effective as it can be.

We look rudderless at the moment, and I just can't see what Rodgers wants anymore which is odd for a man who came in with a strong sense of how he sees the game.

Offline Redrider

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #90 on: May 28, 2015, 12:07:29 PM »
The visible management structure of the club appears to lack stature and substance.
Ayre comes across as a man promoted beyond his capabilities without gravitas or even a credible background of football acumen, certainly not to the level of past LFC Executives like Peter Robinson.
Rodgers seems to be 'out of his depth' and intent on attempting to impart a brand of football that is not suited to the players that he has purchased. The player transfer policies have been an unmitigated failure over the last three seasons, we have too many players failing or out on loan.
We are rapidly being re-branded as a 'provincial' mid-table club.
How do we pull out of this current nose dive?
The answer has to be change out the management, the owners must review their own input into the club and obtain some proven 'credible' European Football knowledgeable managers who do not need to 'learn on the job' and can hit the ground running, then sort out the team!

Offline Defendant

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2015, 12:09:18 PM »
An excellent thread.

For me the biggest problem with the last season was the failure to adequately buy a Suarez-style striker after Sanchez was ruled out. If that had been fixed or any of the goalscorers we'd actually signed had scored at the rate of their previous season before joining LFC then we would be fourth at least and the whole feeling around the club and support would be different.

I feel for BR. It's fairly clear that given the personnel situation up front he tried to smart-coach his way out. And to be fair for a while he did. Some would argue that he changed too late, and he probably did, but management when results are off is a hiding to nothing: if he had dropped Lovren, Lambert and Balotelli almost immediately some would be giving him hell for not giving expensive signings a proper chance.

One thing I think has been mostly overlooked so far in post-season analysis: three at the back worked for the most part only with Sakho fit. The balance of the three centre backs and Sakho's ability to retain the ball and quickly and accurately play it forward was key to making that kind of backline work, and his absence removed it as a sensible option. So sadly, one very useful defensive option is hostage to a very good player with fairly consistent injury issues. I've been very much in favour of spending to fix the mess in attack first if spend is limited, but a ball-playing centreback to cover for Sakho would be very helpful.

Another interesting development this season was Can at fullback/right centreback. there's no doubt we have a real player, but I have real concerns about his ability to not be quickly bypassed by oppositions in midfield. As sad to see Gerrard go as it is, playing him at this age in midfield is almost like playing with a man down against any team with pace on the counter. My concern with Can is the clamour to put him in midfield may retain some of that issue just as Gerrard's leaving gives us an opportunity to fix it.

Back to Rodgers. He's copped flack for playing Can 'out of position' and changing from 3 at the back when without Sakho that formation doesn't sing. To me this is a sign of a manager working hard to make the hand he has work, not a manager losing focus or nerve. I agree with many that perhaps he has tried too hard to coach his way to results, but the effect of his work remains impressive given the right personnel.

So I'd keep him. He's basically on a 6 month probation anyway, as there's no way the support will be calm if the first half of next season is a mess.

But FSG needs to sort out the transfer issue. They've been good on commercial deals and the stadium, but worryingly patchy on adding true quality to the squad. I'd follow the approach some mention of making sure we have 12-13 seriously top class players backed up by kids, and some competitions being used for youth development while the league is focused on. I'd also be open to the idea of a DOF if the right person came along.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 12:12:57 PM by Defendant »

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2015, 12:50:13 PM »
Some terrific reflections on what's gone wrong and what can be done to fix it.

That said, I am struggling with the apparent blind spot so many seem to have regarding the overriding reason why we're all in this situation.

I repeat what I've said a million times with increasing ferocity since last August.

Every team needs an attacking outlet/outlets.

Yet we've just gone through an entire season without an attacking outlet worthy of the name. Had we recruited just one then none of these godforsaken threads would be in evidence

By all means let's muse over the other aspects which have gone awry but for christ sake let's not make out that there's any single one of them that come remotely close to the fact that no team be it a pub team or Real madrid can hope to achieve any fucking thing on the field of play without a proper attacking outlet worthy of the name.

Offline RedKenWah

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2015, 12:50:49 PM »
to go from the swash buckling full on attacking side that absolutely dismantled teams within 20 mins due to the blitzing that we gave oppositions from last season to basically the very lackluster efforts we put in, huffing and puffing and then ultimately not getting anywhere and as soon as we conceded we would be on an uphill struggle...

that is the aspect of the club i am most disappointed with this season...

The identity of targets from the summer and to what they have done this season has been disappointing, both in terms of return for investment and also the usage out of them as well from the manager... that has been a big let down. For me Rickie Lambert, why did we buy him if we weren't going to use him. Same with Balotelli, why did we invest him in if before we signed him Brendan said that he wasn't going to sign him when we had the pre season...

I think what has been noteworthy has been that we have seen a lot of players played out of position and no game more so than the game against Stoke proved that. You have a player like Manquillo in the side yet you persist with Emre Can in defence. You have wingers like Markovic, Ibe and yet you play Henderson & Allen there or expect them to do a job. You have strikers like Lambert, Balotelli, Borini, yet you play Coutinho as a striker... So much of this comes down to a manager who in my mind has players that he clearly doesn't trust and thus does not use them, and it has a detrimental effect on the team. So many of our problems and issues are self inflicted and yet we persist in them.

The season ended v Man Utd it would now appear from the way the games have panned out and how we have managed them and that again is disappointing to see... not showing up for the game against our biggest rivals... and then giving up on the chase for a top 4 finish and the FA cup semi final game... well the less said about that the better really.

I think the one thing that can be gauged from this season is that the manager has unfortunately had a plan of relying on Daniel Sturridge, mould the team around him to get the best out of him, which is absolutely fine and we have seen from previous seasons that it can be successful, look at Torres, Suarez etc... however when you rely on a player who's injury record is as such that he isn't always fit for a whole season, you need to have a back up plan and if you don't then you suffer, and again it's something that has been clear to see. It is something as a club we need to address, we need to have that plan for when plan A fails. We need goal scorers because without them we aren't going anywhere really.

The manager's position has to be questioned, he has been here for 3 seasons now, and what have we achieved. i would say a lot more downs than ups, Last season being a big up and a massive achievement for us but this season and his first season have to be considered as not so good, and with the way the team had basically given up hope from Man Utd game onwards, and in fact the signs were there from the Swansea game before but again a lack of accepting that change was needed, well it is worrying. It's taken him too long for him to realize that there are issues that need addressing and waiting to be battered not just by your biggest rivals, but then by another top 4 contender is quite frankly not good enough. Nor what is good enough is being out thought by Mark Hughes, Sam Allardyce, Alan Pardew, Tim Sherwood, Steve Bruce and co... these managers are not exactly extravagant in their management techniques, you should know what to expect from them, yet we had results which were quite frankly embarrassing.. and not what we would expect from managers of the past we have had here... For that and from what looks like a team that has lost it's faith in him, the manager for me has to go. I think it is now beyond repair that he can fix it or rebuild bridges and it would be a good time to start afresh especially now with Stevie Gerrard moving to pastures new...   

Offline sattapaartridge

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2015, 12:54:05 PM »
For me, this year was the year Brendan Rodgers needed to show his true qualities as a tactical and potentially world-class manager. He only needed one success this year, any cup or 4th spot.

Yes, he had some really bad events happen to his team, no Sturridge, Suarez to rely on to get goals. The contract disarray of Sterling. The goal-shy Balotelli and the mercenary Borini not leaving and also not really contributing.

Defence over the last 3 years has been a problem for us. This year ironically, i thought we improved during the middle of the season but seriously the back door was blown open after the big back to back games vs Man Utd and Arsenal. Rodgers did not show much tactical know-how on how to stop the opposition or to break through their defences. Fair enough, they were both form teams and could actually score goals.

But the against the lesser teams? We were shockingly poor, with a lot to play for in terms of still clinging on to top 4 hope, the FA Cup and Europa League. How did we fail so miserably in all 3 competitions? Can all the blame be put onto the signings? I cant believe that (although of the lot, there are 2 massive howlers of signings, Lovren & Balotelli). But some didnt even play much. Manquillo, Markovic, Lallana barely played many games, while players like Coutinho and Sterling were never rested/rotated.

If we did well with the limitations we had in Europa, we'd show the European stage that we had someone capable of taking this team somewhere, and hence attract some better quality players/strikers. It simply didnt happen.
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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2015, 01:05:00 PM »
Because Liverpool FC should not be club where a manager trains on the job, or uses it as an arc for personal development, to learn how to play in Europe and so on. Liverpool FC should be the place where already established, great managers find their place on the managers seat.

I know this isn't a thread for one liners, but I'd just like to quote this and add it to my thoughts, as it's spot on. At first I thought 'well Kenny did it all those years ago' and yet that's exactly it, it was years ago when we were title winners.
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Offline Stussy

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2015, 01:05:45 PM »
Every team needs an attacking outlet/outlets.

Yet we've just gone through an entire season without an attacking outlet worthy of the name. Had we recruited just one then none of these godforsaken threads would be in evidence

By all means let's muse over the other aspects which have gone awry but for christ sake let's not make out that there's any single one of them that come remotely close to the fact that no team be it a pub team or Real madrid can hope to achieve any fucking thing on the field of play without a proper attacking outlet worthy of the name.

This is definite mitigation for Brendan. But even with that mitigation I say that if Klopp is achievable he goes, because the failings were still profound, and as a club we have to take the opportunity if it arises to secure the services of a superior manager. I'd even go so far as to say that had Brendan sneaked us into fourth place, because of the appalling European campaign, we should still pursue Klopp in order to make us take a step forward.

Question is, despite the limitations currently faced, would that be a step forward? I'd say so, so if we can secure him or (for example Ancelloti) we'd have to let Brendan go.

a side thing is, and its all hypothetical speculation, even with the disability of losing Sturridge, why couldn't Brendan fashion a side that could score goals utilising Balotelli, Borini........make a statement that we have to dig in and dog it this season to get over the line back into the Champions League. But, whatever. If we can get Klopp or Ancelloti we need to get them. That's the bottom line for me.
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #97 on: May 28, 2015, 01:42:02 PM »
This is definite mitigation for Brendan. But even with that mitigation I say that if Klopp is achievable he goes, because the failings were still profound, and as a club we have to take the opportunity if it arises to secure the services of a superior manager. I'd even go so far as to say that had Brendan sneaked us into fourth place, because of the appalling European campaign, we should still pursue Klopp in order to make us take a step forward.

Question is, despite the limitations currently faced, would that be a step forward? I'd say so, so if we can secure him or (for example Ancelloti) we'd have to let Brendan go.

a side thing is, and its all hypothetical speculation, even with the disability of losing Sturridge, why couldn't Brendan fashion a side that could score goals utilising Balotelli, Borini........make a statement that we have to dig in and dog it this season to get over the line back into the Champions League. But, whatever. If we can get Klopp or Ancelloti we need to get them. That's the bottom line for me.

From what I saw of the team with Balotelli [mainly] up front, Lambert [now and again mainly as sub] and Borini I honestly don't think any manager could have moulded a side with any or all of them up front that presented the remotest consistent and meaningful danger or trouble to ANY opposition defence. The operative words here are consistent and meaningful. Sure there can be - and possibly was - the odd snatch of attacking play which troubles the opponents but for the most part it was like watching someone trying to drill through masonry with a fucking toothpick. The defenders they played against had such an easy time of it on the deck, in the air, marking up dropping back etc etc - you name it - that if I'd have been the opposition manager I'd have docked their wages for defending under false pretences.

So to criticise Rodgers too much on that score is preposterous. And especially since he did fashion a system with Sterling as the man responsible for getting beyond the opposition defenders and actually forcing them to hand their deck chairs back to their manager and break into a fucking trot.

The problem with that system which worked for a while was that it meant our entire attacking play was dependant upon the two young lads - Coutinho and Sterling - and it was always asking too much of them to the extent that they were always destined - as I pointed out consistently last November/December - to ultimately run out of steam way before the end of the season [especially so if we'd have stayed longer in the cup competitions].

What took place at this club last summer - and again in the winter window - was an absolute fucking disgrace. It left Rodgers with a completely duff hand. Yes, he has made mistakes especially as the season collapsed around him and us at the very death but to hold him responsible when he faced the impossible task of fielding a side without a meaningful attacking outlet for an entire fucking season is just ludicrous.

The real culprits are those stupid fucking dumbells behind the scenes who clearly haven't got the foggiest notion as to what they're fucking doing or what is required for a football team entering the field of play. Fucking lunacy.

Offline TSC

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2015, 01:49:31 PM »
Not sure about less outlay. We've spent quite a bit and should have secured more value. Maybe we can't sign the best of the best, but we should have signed better players with what we spent.

Agree generally about outlay in terms of transfer fees, notwithstanding net spend we did buy £100m+ of player last Summer.  The bigger issue is around wage structure.  Ultimately it is wages which secures quality, not just transfer value. 


Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #99 on: May 28, 2015, 01:50:09 PM »
I'd keep Rodgers but only if he had the support of a time served, experienced and successful former Manager, one who probably doesn't want to work now as a full-time coach but would be willing to accept an 'old wise sage' role between the coach and the Board - possibly as a Director of Football.   Someone who knows the European scene very well and would be respected by both Brendan and the Board due to his proven track record in football and his excellent inter-personal skills.

There is one available who, for the right money, might consider it:  Ancelotti.

A combination of Rodgers on the training ground, with Ancelotti in the background providing advise on and access to the European players would be a dream ticket for me.  Because of Ancelotti's stellar reputation, I doubt BR would object for any 'dented ego' issues, in fact, I suspect that he's quite malleable at the present time and would be willing to accept any conditions that FSG insist upon to keep his job. 

And, if BR didn't work out, we'd have a 'megastar' former Manager in place who could hold the reins for a while whilst we recruited a replacement.



« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 01:52:54 PM by Lord Roger Hunt »
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Online Gnurglan

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2015, 01:50:44 PM »
The real culprits are those stupid fucking dumbells behind the scenes who clearly haven't got the foggiest notion as to what they're fucking doing or what is required for a football team entering the field of play. Fucking lunacy.

So, what do you really think of them? ;)

Seriously, we're having real problems both on and off the pitch. Everyone can spot it. We can't get it all fixed immediately, but we need to do something. We're at a point where if the same people are allowed to continue, perhaps the best is if they don't do anything. That's never a good start. But can we really trust the TC with any money? Can we trust them to give Rodgers what he needs? And can we trust Rodgers to re-assemble the team and push on? I'd rather trust Rodgers with his task, than the TC with their. But the level of trust isn't all that great.

        * * * * * *


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Offline robertobaggio37

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2015, 01:53:03 PM »
First of all, I like Rodgers and I think one day he'll become hell of a manager. But the reality is here, cold and cruel. We had CL in our pocket, went closest to winning PL in recent years and more importantly, we played the best football in England, arguably in Europe. We had all this, obviously Suarez leaving didn't make us any good but we knew a waaay before his departure that he wants to go, so for me, that's inexcusable. We had resources to spend, with good young core and all we could to was to sign Balotelli, risk which didn't work out for obvious reason. Simply put, I don't think Brendan is the man that can take us forward anymore. Remember "judge me after 3 years" quote? Well that time is here, now. Be honest and ask yourself, is Brendan the right man for us at this moment right now? Of course he cannot take all blame but buck stops with manager, after all he is part of the transfer comitee, he must have said which target to sign or not to sign. There are other problems and this club that needs to be solved, starting with the manager. Through all this, I feel for Brendan in some way, I honestly thought he'd make it here.

I will support Brendan if he is here come september 1st. I just don't think that's the right way for us to do. As a fan I want what's best for Liverpool Football Club and I think that is pretty clear that getting Klopp would be the very first move.

I think we need to do everything in our power to get Jurgen Klopp. The man is the answer, whatever you may think about him. See video below and don't tell me he isn't.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #102 on: May 28, 2015, 01:56:43 PM »
Agree generally about outlay in terms of transfer fees, notwithstanding net spend we did buy £100m+ of player last Summer.  The bigger issue is around wage structure.  Ultimately it is wages which secures quality, not just transfer value. 



I think it's linked. What we see is us wasting money and it has to stop.

It's as if we think we're being clever when we overpay, only to give the player slightly smaller wages. We're still spending a lot, without getting the first team player(s). We could pay our Academy players 100k/w. It would be stupid, of course, but we're not being more clever if we spend 20M on a player who gives us what an Academy player could have offered. In fact, it would be cheaper to give Ibe and Wisdom 100k/w. That's 200k/w and 10M/year.

We need to match the spendings with the level of performance we need/get and we don't.

        * * * * * *


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Offline Stussy

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #103 on: May 28, 2015, 02:01:44 PM »


I just can't accept that we didn't have enough in this squad to be beaten to fourth place by an average United team who ended up with only six points more than they registered under Moyes. It was Rodger's place to not allow that to happen, by hook or by crook, and he failed.

Lots of criticisms to be made about FSG and their policy, and the rest of it. Not enough to redeem BR of his failings is the way I see it, unfortunately. The only thing that can keep him in place is a failure to get Klopp, Ancelloti or another significantly better manager. And then a massive mea culpa from him and the club and a determination to proceed with difference, whilst he is on notice. And I'm just not sure that will be conducive to success. His selling point (and he sold himself in this way) was that he would be able to 'keep the plane flying whilst rebuilding it'. Time to move on, ideally.
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Offline dumbo

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #104 on: May 28, 2015, 02:03:16 PM »
The real culprits are those stupid fucking dumbells behind the scenes who clearly haven't got the foggiest notion as to what they're fucking doing or what is required for a football team entering the field of play. Fucking lunacy.

The counter-argument has been mentioned:
- Rodgers was hired to implement his style of play at the club.
- players were scouted and signed to play his style of football.
- we haven't actually played his style of football.

I don't know whether that's correct, but I would assume the TC didn't randomly pick names out of a hat without running the first list past the manager.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #105 on: May 28, 2015, 02:04:57 PM »
So, what do you really think of them? ;)

Seriously, we're having real problems both on and off the pitch. Everyone can spot it. We can't get it all fixed immediately, but we need to do something. We're at a point where if the same people are allowed to continue, perhaps the best is if they don't do anything. That's never a good start. But can we really trust the TC with any money? Can we trust them to give Rodgers what he needs? And can we trust Rodgers to re-assemble the team and push on? I'd rather trust Rodgers with his task, than the TC with their. But the level of trust isn't all that great.

To be fair G., I'm not that huge a fan of Brendan. he's okay but don't forget i was reared on the greatest man ever to walk the earth so Brendan's way down the pecking order.

But I do believe in being fair and the man - rather like Rafa in the season after he'd just failed to win the league - was hung out to dry by the club's failure first to keep Suarez, then to ensure the Suarez/Sturridge partnership was augmented with a similar attacking player for the Champions league campaign given Sturridges injury vulnerability and then when they allowed Suarez to leave not replacing him and augmenting the strikeforc [to cover Sturridge] with two similar proper attacking outlets.

Any criticism of Rodgers - and there clearly is justification for criticism - simply has to be qualified by admission that the shite hand he was given to play with was and remains the overwhelmingl reason why we're all on on here bitching and moaning about the way the season panned out.

Had he got the two proper attacking outlets - and as we've seen almost every other premiership team procured at least one without the enticement of Champions league footy that we could dangle in front of them - we'd now all be looking ahead to a second successive - and hopefully vastly better - Champions League campaign.


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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2015, 02:07:28 PM »
I just can't accept that we didn't have enough in this squad to be beaten to fourth place by an average United team who ended up with only six points more than they registered under Moyes. It was Rodger's place to not allow that to happen, by hook or by crook, and he failed.

Lots of criticisms to be made about FSG and their policy, and the rest of it. Not enough to redeem BR of his failings is the way I see it, unfortunately. The only thing that can keep him in place is a failure to get Klopp, Ancelloti or another significantly better manager. And then a massive mea culpa from him and the club and a determination to proceed with difference, whilst he is on notice. And I'm just not sure that will be conducive to success. His selling point (and he sold himself in this way) was that he would be able to 'keep the plane flying whilst rebuilding it'. Time to move on, ideally.


You mean the United team with at least half a dozen attacking outlets any one or two of whom would have guaranteed us a top four spot?

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #107 on: May 28, 2015, 02:09:55 PM »
The counter-argument has been mentioned:
- Rodgers was hired to implement his style of play at the club.
- players were scouted and signed to play his style of football.
- we haven't actually played his style of football.

I don't know whether that's correct, but I would assume the TC didn't randomly pick names out of a hat without running the first list past the manager.

I repeat

a footy team without a meaningful attacking outlet is scarcely worthy of the term 'footy team'

And that was us for an entire season.

Any other reflection on the season past including your own interpretations simply has to be prefaced by that fact since it renders everything else utterly fucking meaningless.

Offline Stussy

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #108 on: May 28, 2015, 02:12:32 PM »
You mean the United team with at least half a dozen attacking outlets any one or two of whom would have guaranteed us a top four spot?

Yes, they accrued only six points more than Moyes did (which amounted to two defeats of us)

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #109 on: May 28, 2015, 02:13:26 PM »
I just can't accept that we didn't have enough in this squad to be beaten to fourth place by an average United team who ended up with only six points more than they registered under Moyes. It was Rodger's place to not allow that to happen, by hook or by crook, and he failed.

Lots of criticisms to be made about FSG and their policy, and the rest of it. Not enough to redeem BR of his failings is the way I see it, unfortunately. The only thing that can keep him in place is a failure to get Klopp, Ancelloti or another significantly better manager. And then a massive mea culpa from him and the club and a determination to proceed with difference, whilst he is on notice. And I'm just not sure that will be conducive to success. His selling point (and he sold himself in this way) was that he would be able to 'keep the plane flying whilst rebuilding it'. Time to move on, ideally.

I agree with this.
And I think a more experienced manager might well have done. I got the feeling that Brendan was too interested in playing politics at times, and took his eye off the ball.

The only thing that worries me is that he knows he's at last chance saloon now. Therefore he'll reset to his default of death by football. And I think that will ultimately be his undoing. We have Daniel who is not to be relied upon, and when he does play, hates defensive work, and our primary target Benteke is certainly not known for helping out. Coupled with his inability to set up a back four I think we're just waiting for his demise.

If we persisted with 3 at the back, and returned to the marauding 'fuck you' football we played last season after signing a decent number 9 there's nobody else I'd have in charge.
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Offline dumbo

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #110 on: May 28, 2015, 02:34:09 PM »
a footy team without a meaningful attacking outlet is scarcely worthy of the term 'footy team'

Balotelli scored goals at previous clubs, Borini isn't the worst striker in world football, Lambert still has some goals in him...

IMHO we had "decent" strikers, but those players were/are unsuited to the style of football that we chose to play in 2014/15.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #111 on: May 28, 2015, 03:02:39 PM »
Balotelli scored goals at previous clubs, Borini isn't the worst striker in world football, Lambert still has some goals in him...

IMHO we had "decent" strikers, but those players were/are unsuited to the style of football that we chose to play in 2014/15.

My hunch is we see things completely differently. I guess I was simply reared on the wrong sort of 'decent' striker - Hunt, St John, Keegan, Tosh, Kenny, Rushie,  Beardsley, Aldo, Robbie, Owen. It clearly clouds my judgement on these things.

Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #112 on: May 28, 2015, 03:15:49 PM »
I think if Ancelotti or Klopp are available i think we should go for it.

The alarm bells for me started going off when he reverted to, stuck with and refused to change this preferred 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 (lone striker) if your prefer. It just wasnt working and everyone could see it. No DM to protect the back, strikers who normally play as partners playing lone, Gerrard DM, the list was long.

And yet it took him being on the verge of the sack to go back to what he knew last season to dig us out of the rut. So then you're thinking this guy IS LEARNING and we go on a run, a solid but not spectacular one, but good non the less.

Then, off the back of one game he dumps it and goes back to his preferred system.

And that did it for me. To do that after all that he'd been through says to me he is stubborn and egotistical. I actually dont think some of our buys were that bad, sure i think we could do with a world class or near class replacement for Suarez, but Lovren came with a decent rep, Balotelli is talented, but lazy, Lambert was handy off the bench, Markovic again a good young talent and Lallana although not worth 25 million a talented player.

But all season they've just been played wrongly. gerrard in the wrong position. Sterling at times, Markovic at times, Balotelli and Lambert at times.

Now we are being linked to players that we dont really need but that will fit his sytem - a system i dont want to see us playing because we cant play like that and its worrying.

To me thats not a manager thats learning thats a manager struggling, hoping to make it work.

Its been a disasterous 12 months, not befitting of the enormous strides last year, a real loss of opportunity.

If we have two better managers, especially Ancelotti knocking on our door it will be unforgivable not to take it, or will we rue a missed opportunity again?
"If you're in the penalty area and don't know what to do with the ball, put it in the net and we'll discuss the options later."

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Offline Harinder

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #113 on: May 28, 2015, 03:17:58 PM »
Some good points sadly removed due to one post being sub par (no pun intended).

As you were. Just to remind all Brendan Rodgers is the manager. Overspeculating on replacements isn't really a great thing to do as it will serve to derail. We're at a good balance so lets keep that going :)
Just clicked on the main board and my virus scanner came back with this

"When we visited this site, we found it exhibited one or more risky behaviors."


:lmao

Strip his knighthood https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47770

Offline dumbo

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #114 on: May 28, 2015, 04:25:42 PM »
My hunch is we see things completely differently. I guess I was simply reared on the wrong sort of 'decent' striker - Hunt, St John, Keegan, Tosh, Kenny, Rushie,  Beardsley, Aldo, Robbie, Owen. It clearly clouds my judgement on these things.

Whilst we didn't have Owen/Fowler... we also didn't have the worst strikers in the league - we simply chose to play a system that didn't suit our strikers, and then we stopped playing any of them.

I am certainly no fan of the transfer committee, but I do wonder if the core of the problem isn't that they bought donkeys... but that they were told we were going to be running a donkey ride this year... and then we instead opened a F1 racetrack.

Offline norecat

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #115 on: May 28, 2015, 04:39:36 PM »
Our 6-1 hammering we took at Stoke put a brutal full stop on the tale of our 2014-2015 season. The danger for the club is we just become a name with a famous past. The two richest clubs in the league finished 1st and 2nd this year. We are now a selling club. Brendan has had three full seasons in charge. Highlight being the second season but even that had the fundamental flaw of a the team leaking goals. Most title winning teams are built from a solid defence. We almost got to the promised land through firepower. With a proper defence we would have made it. The point was made earlier that Chelsea, although too coming up short last season, identified the players required to make the next step and got them.
This season losing Suarez was a serious handicap allied to Sturridge's injuries meant we had little or no firepower and defensively, save one spell, we were poor and we finished where we did 6th. The Suarez money hasn't proven to have been well spent. We needed centre back/s, a defensive midfielder and two strikers. We didn't do what Chelsea did. We knew what our shortcomings were yet we blew 120m. Can did ok and hopefully Moreno and Markovic will come good but other than that.
Buying and selling players is generally the straw that breaks most manager's backs as players are the tools the manager uses to get results. Brendan has come up short in this respect and our league position reflects that.

Offline Asam

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #116 on: May 28, 2015, 04:44:37 PM »
An excellent thread.

For me the biggest problem with the last season was the failure to adequately buy a Suarez-style striker after Sanchez was ruled out. If that had been fixed or any of the goalscorers we'd actually signed had scored at the rate of their previous season before joining LFC then we would be fourth at least and the whole feeling around the club and support would be different.

I feel for BR. It's fairly clear that given the personnel situation up front he tried to smart-coach his way out. And to be fair for a while he did. Some would argue that he changed too late, and he probably did, but management when results are off is a hiding to nothing: if he had dropped Lovren, Lambert and Balotelli almost immediately some would be giving him hell for not giving expensive signings a proper chance.

One thing I think has been mostly overlooked so far in post-season analysis: three at the back worked for the most part only with Sakho fit. The balance of the three centre backs and Sakho's ability to retain the ball and quickly and accurately play it forward was key to making that kind of backline work, and his absence removed it as a sensible option. So sadly, one very useful defensive option is hostage to a very good player with fairly consistent injury issues. I've been very much in favour of spending to fix the mess in attack first if spend is limited, but a ball-playing centreback to cover for Sakho would be very helpful.

Another interesting development this season was Can at fullback/right centreback. there's no doubt we have a real player, but I have real concerns about his ability to not be quickly bypassed by oppositions in midfield. As sad to see Gerrard go as it is, playing him at this age in midfield is almost like playing with a man down against any team with pace on the counter. My concern with Can is the clamour to put him in midfield may retain some of that issue just as Gerrard's leaving gives us an opportunity to fix it.

Back to Rodgers. He's copped flack for playing Can 'out of position' and changing from 3 at the back when without Sakho that formation doesn't sing. To me this is a sign of a manager working hard to make the hand he has work, not a manager losing focus or nerve. I agree with many that perhaps he has tried too hard to coach his way to results, but the effect of his work remains impressive given the right personnel.

So I'd keep him. He's basically on a 6 month probation anyway, as there's no way the support will be calm if the first half of next season is a mess.

But FSG needs to sort out the transfer issue. They've been good on commercial deals and the stadium, but worryingly patchy on adding true quality to the squad. I'd follow the approach some mention of making sure we have 12-13 seriously top class players backed up by kids, and some competitions being used for youth development while the league is focused on. I'd also be open to the idea of a DOF if the right person came along.

I agree with this, it looks to me that Brendan has tinkered and changed the system due to our injuries and inability to make the initial choice of system work, so he as a coach is not convinced by certain players in the squad so has tried to outsmart the competition tactically, the problem is that his judgement at times has been plain wrong. Sakho & Lucas both being left in the cold for extended periods is a an example where his initial stubborness has cost the team points.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #117 on: May 28, 2015, 05:00:21 PM »
Whilst we didn't have Owen/Fowler... we also didn't have the worst strikers in the league - we simply chose to play a system that didn't suit our strikers, and then we stopped playing any of them.

I am certainly no fan of the transfer committee, but I do wonder if the core of the problem isn't that they bought donkeys... but that they were told we were going to be running a donkey ride this year... and then we instead opened a F1 racetrack.

Highlighted bit.

I emphatically disagree. In fact, that statement is so far from the reality it's impossible for me to even begin to take seriously what you're saying.

Quite apart from the strike forces of the obvious top four I'd say every single side bar none in the Premiership boasted a comfortably superior strikeforce/attacking outlet than we did. I've sat at Anfield for every game and every last one was infinitely more potent than ours, applied infinitely more pressure/pressing on our back four than we could manage on theirs, was faster, fitter, more inventive and above all infinitely more troublesome to our defence than our three ever were to the opposition defence.

I'd also stick within the same context every single foreign team we played and every single lower division team we played.

The bottom line is that Rodgers may well have been guilty of failure to bring out the best in those players but had he been provided with any one or two from the lengthy procession of opposition attacking outlets that have paraded their wares and caused problems for our defenders rather than the static imposters masquerading as Liverpool attacking outlets that I've had to endure watching this season then he'd have quite comfortably achieved the top four spot that was this club's principal aim for the season.

The guy may have his faults but he was dealt a shambolically, unforgivably shite hand by the imbeciles behind the scenes at Liverpool Football Club.

You honestly think I'd be keeping up a fucking charade argument if i wasn't totally 100% sure of my ground on this.

Sure Klopp may be a better manager [I don't know that personally as I know little about him other than he seems a bit of a character and had a fine spell at Dortmund]. Ancelotti and Rafa undoubtedly are.

But for fucks sake cannot any of you lot who seem to have a death wish for the present incumbent at least acknowledge the reality of the season just gone which is that we have played the entire season without an attacking outlet worthy of the name and as such effectively hamstrung the manager right from the word go.


Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #118 on: May 28, 2015, 05:03:29 PM »
I agree with this, it looks to me that Brendan has tinkered and changed the system due to our injuries and inability to make the initial choice of system work, so he as a coach is not convinced by certain players in the squad so has tried to outsmart the competition tactically, the problem is that his judgement at times has been plain wrong. Sakho & Lucas both being left in the cold for extended periods is a an example where his initial stubborness has cost the team points.


Highlighted bit.

You know for sure it was stubborness?

Possibly it was.

Possibly it was something else.

But you go ahead drawing conclusions about things about which none of us really have the slightest fucking notion as to what really went on.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #119 on: May 28, 2015, 05:04:14 PM »
Whilst we didn't have Owen/Fowler... we also didn't have the worst strikers in the league - we simply chose to play a system that didn't suit our strikers, and then we stopped playing any of them.



It was the other way round.  The system was in place and working well from the previous season.  Liverpool chose to sign players that didn't fit that system while simultaneously losing two key players that were vital to the system working. 

That's not to say the signed forwards are  'donkeys' as such (although this season won't have added anything to their potential value) and arguably even though unsuited to that system we still should have got more out of them.