Author Topic: End of season round table debate (*)  (Read 72947 times)

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #240 on: June 1, 2015, 08:58:31 AM »
I hope FSG stick with Rodgers and I hope he doesn't resign.

In 2013/14, he rode imperiously on a tidal wave of support. That seems to be wavering, to say the least. The man knows he made mistakes last season. But he's human. The pictures of him after the Stoke game were images of a man who looked crushed. I'm sorry, but there isn't a job in the world that should reduce a human being to that state. Certainly not the manager of a football club.

In his first season, we gave him time to settle. There was some improvement. His second season was one of unimaginable delight. His third season was hit and miss, admittedly largely miss. This last season has certainly shown him what managing in the big time really means. Over the last three years, he has experienced the highs and the lows in equal measure.

It is said that adversity makes us stronger. I want to see him given that opportunity. I want to see how he reacts. I want to see how much he has learned. Throwing him out of the club now just seems like a panicked reaction.

It is also said that players don't become crap overnight. Are managers not allowed the same sentiment?

Liverpool FC will not fall by the wayside by giving our manager another season. Everyone deserves a second chance. Or are we too special for that kind of thing?

Fine post that HK.

Offline LiamG

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #241 on: June 1, 2015, 09:37:09 AM »
My answer is - yes, they would have won titles. We regularly make it a question about money. No-one says money isn't important. But it isn't the only thing. A sugar daddy owner will have his edge on the financial side. So why don't PSG or Man C play CL Finals every other year? Because there's more to it.

What we had in the 80s and prior to that, was a very good system. It went right through every part of the club. Money won't get you that. And this could be our edge. The most recent example of a club that has it, is probably Southampton. They haven't won the PL, but they are competing with us. They over-achieve. I personally thought they'd crash this season. I thought they'd be fighting for relegation after losing so many key players. But they appear to have a very, very strong system in place. It goes beyond the manager and the first team. And if they can compete with us, why couldn't we compete with those who have more money than us?

A few years ago, Rodgers took us apart when he was in charge of Swansea. He had them play good football. Everyone thought they over-achieved and we thought it was because of Rodgers. Rightly so, we could assume. Swansea had something too, just like Southampton this season. But where are Swansea now? They finished 6 points behind us this season. That's them beating us once and we'd be equal on points. It's after three years of us building a team. And yet, they're so close. Despite having their manager.

Both Swansea and Southampton have found a way. Their way. It's quite impressive. But I don't think it's because of their managers. It goes deeper than that. Give them a bit more time and some stability. It's not beyond them to challenge us and Spurs over the next few years. If we continue like this.





Good points on Southampton and Swansea - 2 well run clubs from top to bottom

Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #242 on: June 1, 2015, 09:41:52 AM »
Ha ha i just noticed my profile name!!! :D :D :D
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #243 on: June 1, 2015, 09:50:25 AM »
Ha ha i just noticed my profile name!!! :D :D :D

Ha ha

Good laugh that eh Walshy lad

I must admit I did wonder when you didn't comment earlier

 ;D ;D

Offline kb2x

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #244 on: June 1, 2015, 10:02:07 AM »
1st Season - we allowed him to settle in, gave him the benefit of the doubt and knew it was a "work in progress"

2nd season - Best strike force in Europe at our disposal. Shocking defensively. Cost us the title ultimately. Played the best football attacking wise in my lifetime, and that game against Arsenal at home was the best 1st half of football Anfield has probably seen. Sterling was on fire 2nd half of the season too.

3rd season - Invested badly in mediocre players. Lost the worlds best player. Our other striker was injured for 90% of the season. We lost our way. No set tactic, no direction. We've lost the best player to ever grace our club, and suffered some horrific results over the season . Lost to Palace x2, Stoke (In our heaviest defeat in over 50years), Newcastle, United x 2 (and they've been shit most of the season) and actually ended up finishing 6th. We had a disasterous European campaign, which saw our manager show a complete disregard to our European history in sending out a weakened side at the Bernabaeu (which was disgraceful)

In short, after this season - do I think the manager should stay? No, because there are 2 better candidates available- but he has my backing if he does stay

Offline filopastry

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #245 on: June 1, 2015, 11:34:52 AM »


The most obvious area in which that will rear its head is the transfer market. I certainly donít want to turn this thoughtful thread into any sort of transfer speculation, but I also canít help but notice that the early rumours of our summer business are less than inspiring. Itís been often stated by journalists largely respected around these parts that weíre looking to bring in ďPremiership provenĒ talent and this comes with the backing of Brendan. Itís what first broached the subject of moral hazard in my mind. The thought that Brendan is looking to go the safe route because he knows his neck is on the line. I canít necessarily blame him. The prospect of losing such a unique position in world football just 12 months after being the toast of the league canít be comfortable. I canít help feeling, though, that for the club itíd taking one step forward to take two backwards. I donít think we can afford to go the safe route any longer. Itís proven fruitless for us time and again. We need a visionary. We need to take risks. We need to swing big. That is certainly not all down to the manager, but he is an integral cog in the machine. The minute he begins making decisions to preserve his job itís time to cut bait. Iím not in any position to accurately judge if thatís happening now, but it worries me greatly that my nose, at the very least, caught the whiff of it.

Simply put, I canít in good conscience get behind any sort of wait-and-see plan. The club canít afford it. Weíve got to be proactive. We have had 36 months to judge whether heís the right man for the job. In all truth that should be enough.

A great post all round, just cherry picked a few bits above.

I share your concern about the targets we have been linked with, on the surface it looks like Brendan may have been granted more power over transfers, which is bizarre given we haven't even had the end of season review yet.

Given all that happened over the course of the season I am surprised didn't basically have a DoF ready to appoint come the end of the season, none of us can know for sure which transfers were targeted by the manager and which were more driven by the transfer committee, but the speculation on that seems to have largely settled down to where we can make a fair guess, and to be honest neither set of targets have covered themselves in glory.

In that circumstance I would have thought the move to pretty much rip the structure up would be difficult to argue against, the obvious move would have been to insert a DoF into the team in one way or another (you can dress it up however you like to save the manager's pride) and have them responsible for our transfer business although they would obviously work in conjunction with the manager on those targets.

For all Brendan has said he wouldn't work with a DoF in the past I'm not sure he could make a particularly strong case against it at the moment.

Instead it looks like we will only have tweaking to the structure and if the early targets are to be believed (PL focused with a perception that they are lower risk in the short-run, even though they would not be what anyone would call value signings), more power in the transfer market to a manager who as you rightly say is now under considerable pressure to deliver short term results.

It is a worrying situation all round, and will rightly bring more scrutiny as to FSG's overall strategy for the club.

Last season was a huge missed opportunity for the club and unfortunately we are already looking at a position where next season looks more like a transitional/rebuilding year, where we aren't hugely likely to break back into the top 4, so to an extent it is a good time to make a managerial change if you wanted to, but it would be a mistake to regard that as the answer to all our problems.

You can't hold the manager alone responsible for our wastefulness in the transfer market, and unless we get considerably smarter in that regard it will be extremely difficult to get back to the top of English football whoever the manager is.

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #246 on: June 1, 2015, 02:33:18 PM »
OP poses the following simple question:

"My simple question is this: Is Brendan the right manager for the job?"

My simple answer is... I dunno. Helpful, eh?

Let me rattle on a moment. What distinguishes a big, successful club from a smaller, mediocre club? There a re any number of answers to that, but after the obvious answer of 'money', the next most important 'M' is mentality. And I am not convinced Rodger's has it.

Liverpool is in the top 10 richest clubs in the world, yet somehow over the last few years we have persuaded ourselves that we are some hokey bunch of yokels with barely tuppence to rub together and completely incapable of competing with the teams around us. Yet, you go to Spain and you see the vastly poorer AM competing with RM and Barca. You go to Germany and BD spent years frustrating BM on a shoestring budget. Even in Italy Juventus buys smart and maximises its purchases to dominate the league and that was after being busted down a division for cheating.

Some will point to the senior management at the club and say they could do more. They probably could, but consideringt ehy saved the club from administration, started a stadium expansion and broke transfer records I am loathe to be overly-critical of them. How soon we forget. Ultimately they are not football men and depend on those more knowledgable than them to give them a steer. That includes Rodgers as a manager of the first team.

My problem with Rodgers is, for all the positive things he has done - a side with more attacking verve, a great run last season, promoting youth for example - he still has a mid-table mentality and that extends to his acquisitions.  Ultimately you judge a manager on his signings and Rodger's insistence on mid-table players has a 'that'll do' feel to it. He doesn't seem to want to come out of his comfort zone, to the point where he will favour domestic, British players and ignore the potential of other players in the squad.

Added to that his relentless positivity, wonderful when things are going well, useless when they are going badly, is all carrot and no stick. Well-drilled mediocrity could perform heroically, but mediocrity with ideas above its station will always let you down.

Mentality. I'm not convinced Rodgers has it. Klopp certainly does and that's the undercurrent to all of this thread. Simply put, should Liverpool try for Klopp or give Rodgers another year? That's the key bit. In any other year, with no obvious candidate, Rodger's position would not be in question. That's the truth of it. Whatever reservations people have they would be quickly shelved when names like Sam Allardyce, Alan Pardew and Harry redknapp get bandied. But this year there are three outstanding candidates - Klopp, Benitez and Bielsa, with Klopp being the hottest managerial ticket in Europe.

That's the real reason for all the soul-searching on RAWK at the minute. It's not really "Is Rodger's the right manager for the job" the real question is "Is Klopp/Bielsa/Benitez the better manager for the job?" What's driving the transfer forum crazy at the minute is all the targets once more have a mid-table feel to them. After a spectacularly poor season it appears Rodgers is planning to go British again... people are looking at Benteke, Ings, Milner etc and thinking "I bet Klopp would get better players", "I bet Klopp would drill them to play better defensively", " I bet Klopp would win big games and give us a tilt at the title". Rodger's is not suffering due to a poor season (hell 6th is better than some of the finishes since 2009), he's suffering because people had a taste of glory last year and can imagine better times with another manager, specifically Klopp, but with a nod to Bielsa and Benitez.

Back to the original question then; "Is Brendan the right manager for the job?" As I said, I dunno. I certainly don't think that Liverpool under Rodger's will drop much below 6th/7th. During a period of expansion and consolidation, there are worse things that can happen. In that sense Rodger's next season is no Hodgson, he is a safe pair of hands. But for those of us who dream, who see a thriftily assembled and well-disciplined Liverpool side tearing up the league under the baleful eye of a Klopp or a Benitez, such a Rodgerian vision lacks lustre.

The key question I would pose for the OP is this: Do you ever envisage Rodger's reaching the heights of last season again? I don't. And if that's your aim, then I would say no, emphatically no, Rodger's is not the right man for the job. But if it's continuity and development, a safe pair of hands for an above average mid table side, then I dunno, perhaps Rodger's is.

Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline L666KOP

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #247 on: June 1, 2015, 03:12:35 PM »
Can i be the first to come to the conclusion that Klopp wanted to come to Liverpool but took a sabbatical  because we decided to stick with Rodgers. 

Yup. Thats what happened.

This summer is going to be very interesting indeed.

Those that decided they wanted Brendan out due to the 3 alternatives will now be shitting bricks due to there being only one left after Jurgen's sabbatical, and Rafa going to Madrid.

It's 'all in' on Carlo I assume now then, or a serious amount of backtracking from some of the more vocal doom mongerers ?

If Brendan stays do we keep the TC ?

I think lots of us are worried that if Brendan and the TC both stay in place then there's no changes on face value from last summer, so in turn how do we avoid making the same mistakes ? Have FSG decided to ease a DoF 'figure' in place under the all encompassing TC ?

And for those that want a replacement at any cost ?

Big Sam will be looking for work ?
 ;)

13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline Stussy

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #248 on: June 1, 2015, 03:30:42 PM »


Joke - it's a free country - if folks fancy a new model or want rid of the present model then I guess it's their prerogative. Just because some of us find such an attitude sickening and reprehensible doesn't mean folks aren't perfectly entitled to stab people in the back - oops

Slightly unfair to call people who think its time for a change backstabbers. A backstabber is one of the lowest things there is. And making a reasoned case for why it might be for the best, if circumstances allow (ie: meaning if a better manager can be secured) is not an issue of backstabbing. I've yet to read any post here that isn't regretful about Brendan. Its not something anyone considers lightly.

If Brendan is here next season its up to us to get behind him and support him. I'll be doing that.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #249 on: June 1, 2015, 03:33:04 PM »
they will arrive or they arrived alredy?

Brendan Rodgers: Liverpool owners to meet manager this week


By Ben Smith BBC Sport


Liverpool co-owners Tom Werner and John W Henry will arrive on Merseyside this week for talks with Reds manager Brendan Rodgers.

The Americans are expected in the city on Tuesday and are expected to meet their manager as part of his end of season review on Wednesday.

Sources close to Werner and Henry have consistently played down suggestions Rodgers' job is under immediate threat.

However, the situation will become clearer following this meeting.

Rodgers was appointed as Liverpool manager exactly three years ago to the day.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/32964791
« Last Edit: June 1, 2015, 03:47:02 PM by Bonsky »
^ That's what you get for posting twitter shite kids.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #250 on: June 1, 2015, 03:39:31 PM »
Hopefully FSG will apologize to him for replacing a 70m striker with a 16m dud and promise him strikers worthy of Lfc`s name so we can compete next season. Brendan nor any of the names mentioned as replacements are magicians, they need top class players to compete. They should be reviewing themselves and their transfer policy to signing top class players instead of a manager who proved being able to do the business with right tools.

Offline L666KOP

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #251 on: June 1, 2015, 03:44:49 PM »
Slightly unfair to call people who think its time for a change backstabbers. A backstabber is one of the lowest things there is. And making a reasoned case for why it might be for the best, if circumstances allow (ie: meaning if a better manager can be secured) is not an issue of backstabbing. I've yet to read any post here that isn't regretful about Brendan. Its not something anyone considers lightly.

If Brendan is here next season its up to us to get behind him and support him. I'll be doing that.

12 months ago I was the fastest Electrician in the UK. I could rewire a house in a day.
I then got my tools pinched and my gaffer replaced them with a lump hammer and a pair of rusty pliers.
My performance since then has been poor and it now takes me 3 days to rewire a house.
My boss now has to decide the easiest way to get houses rewired in 1 day again, does he buy me the tools he knows I need, or does he take a chance on employing someone else and hoping they have the right tools ?

Wanting change is all well and good mate, but let's want it for the right reasons. There's too many on here jumped ship a little too early for my liking, I'm definitely in a minority now when I say I'd rather we kept our manager.
It would take a lot of courage now to stick with him, the media have done the groundwork in justifying why he should be sacked.
I hope FSG hold their nerve better than the bed-wetters on RAWK.

Give him 40/45 goals, and if he drops the ball again, let him go. Fair enough

Last season may well have been the return to earth with a bump Brendan needed, and one that many on here needed too.
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #252 on: June 1, 2015, 03:48:32 PM »
12 months ago I was the fastest Electrician in the UK. I could rewire a house in a day.
I then got my tools pinched and my gaffer replaced them with a lump hammer and a pair of rusty pliers.
My performance since then has been poor and it now takes me 3 days to rewire a house.
My boss now has to decide the easiest way to get houses rewired in 1 day again, does he buy me the tools he knows I need, or does he take a chance on employing someone else and hoping they have the right tools ?

You in the right thread mate? Nobody wants to hear about your sparky career ;D

But, not a bad analogy all told, and a lot of arguments seemingly pivot around things we don't actually know - i.e, how the transfer committee actually works. Is it Brendan's choice (in which case he deserves blame) or not (in which case, he's slightly exonerated of our poor performance this year). But we don't have all those facts, which makes it difficult to ascertain blame.

Personally, I'm not that interested in who to blame, I'm of the mindset of just getting on with it, as there's little I can do as a fan to change things anyway. Let's hope things take a turn for the better.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #253 on: June 1, 2015, 03:49:05 PM »
12 months ago I was the fastest Electrician in the UK. I could rewire a house in a day.
I then got my tools pinched and my gaffer replaced them with a lump hammer and a pair of rusty pliers.
My performance since then has been poor and it now takes me 3 days to rewire a house.
My boss now has to decide the easiest way to get houses rewired in 1 day again, does he buy me the tools he knows I need, or does he take a chance on employing someone else and hoping they have the right tools ?

Wanting change is all well and good mate, but let's want it for the right reasons. There's too many on here jumped ship a little too early for my liking, I'm definitely in a minority now when I say I'd rather we kept our manager.
It would take a lot of courage now to stick with him, the media have done the groundwork in justifying why he should be sacked.
I hope FSG hold their nerve better than the bed-wetters on RAWK.

Give him 40/45 goals, and if he drops the ball again, let him go. Fair enough

Last season may well have been the return to earth with a bump Brendan needed, and one that many on here needed too.


Taking this analogy further though , your boss has taken you to the store get new tools and you've looked at what you want and then spied the bargain bin and are currently rummaging through that ;)

Offline L666KOP

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #254 on: June 1, 2015, 03:56:23 PM »
You in the right thread mate? Nobody wants to hear about your sparky career ;D

But, not a bad analogy all told, and a lot of arguments seemingly pivot around things we don't actually know - i.e, how the transfer committee actually works. Is it Brendan's choice (in which case he deserves blame) or not (in which case, he's slightly exonerated of our poor performance this year). But we don't have all those facts, which makes it difficult to ascertain blame.

Personally, I'm not that interested in who to blame, I'm of the mindset of just getting on with it, as there's little I can do as a fan to change things anyway. Let's hope things take a turn for the better.

It's all face value isn't it pal. We still don't know how we came to end up with Balotelli/Lambert ?

If I found out that Brendan said "Get me Balotelli and Lambert" then I'd probably be very wary of letting him go to the shop with anything more than a fiver in his pocket ? ;D

Until we know who actually chose the players then we'll just talk in circles all night and all day.

Something needs to change, I think we all know that. And I just hope that those with any influence do the right thing. And if the right thing in their eyes is to let Brendan go, then so be it. They'll be more qualified than I when it comes to a decision, because they'll have all the information needed to make it.

I do know it's going to cost Pearce a fortune in flowers, Chocolates, and Mini-Muffins to get back to being Brendan's media confidante again.
 :D
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline L666KOP

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #255 on: June 1, 2015, 03:59:08 PM »
Taking this analogy further though , your boss has taken you to the store get new tools and you've looked at what you want and then spied the bargain bin and are currently rummaging through that ;)

He's buying the tools mate, I'm not anywhere near the bargain bin. :D

And if he pointed me in that direction he's told that if he wants the same level of performance then he replaces what I lost. Not what he thinks I might need.

I'm doing the job, not him.
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline filopastry

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #256 on: June 1, 2015, 04:04:24 PM »
Well at least all will be clear after Wednesday.

At this stage though with all of the recent briefing of the press, the fact that we already appear to be pursuing transfer targets and that process seems to be largely driven by Rodgers, and also that Klopp appears to be off the market for now, it would be a huge shock to me if Brendan didn't keep his job this summer.

At the same time I don't think anyone would argue that this season has been a significant blow to his authority.

More than ever it will be important for this team to get a good start next season or things could start getting ugly very quickly on and off the pitch.

The question for next season will be of course what does Brendan need to achieve to keep his job beyond that, you would think on the face of it that 4th would be the target but I think that will be extremely difficult to achieve. Would there be a lowering of expectations from the owners and would 5th now be acceptable to them (I have my doubts as to whether it would be to most fans, based on the current mood of those I know)

Offline L666KOP

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #257 on: June 1, 2015, 04:05:20 PM »
Good workman never blames his tools.

Absolutely.

But when I say I want a 50 pound set of screwdrivers it's because they're robust, will stand the rigours of constant use, and still be functional and fit for purpose in ten years.

If you buy me a set for 7 quid from Junkin Joes bargain emporium they'll break whilst getting them out of the box, or the ends will snap under the slightest pressure.

Buy cheap, buy twice.
 ;)
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline Hinesy

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #258 on: June 1, 2015, 04:22:34 PM »
enough already with the sparky stuff ;)
Yep.

Offline Chakan

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #259 on: June 1, 2015, 04:26:03 PM »
Damnit and I really enjoyed my Joe Cole analogy :P

Anyway back to the topic.

It really does look to me like they've given Rodgers the options for his own players (within a budget), i'm hoping the best we don't come up with is Benteke. I've said a few times that we need to replace Sturridge and I don't think Benteke is the person to do that. Then again if he comes and scores 25 goals i'll be the first one to admit I was wrong.

It will be interesting to see what happens after Wednesday and if there is any fall out from last season. Whatever the situation something needs to change with our transfer targets/strategies.

Offline L666KOP

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #260 on: June 1, 2015, 04:33:56 PM »
Damnit and I really enjoyed my Joe Cole analogy :P

Anyway back to the topic.

It really does look to me like they've given Rodgers the options for his own players (within a budget), i'm hoping the best we don't come up with is Benteke. I've said a few times that we need to replace Sturridge and I don't think Benteke is the person to do that. Then again if he comes and scores 25 goals i'll be the first one to admit I was wrong.

It will be interesting to see what happens after Wednesday and if there is any fall out from last season. Whatever the situation something needs to change with our transfer targets/strategies.

And we mustn't fall into the trap of thinking it hasn't if nothing 'appears' to have changed.

Whatever his motives, Henry knows that a well run successful club is worth more financially than one that isn't. He will want us to be the best he can make us whilst adhering to the FFP guidelines.

He'll be the first to admit he's made mistakes, soccer is a new game for them, and they're babes in comparison to some that own football clubs. Let's see what transpires this week. Then take it from there, the sooner everyone is content with where they are the better it will be for everyone.
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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #261 on: June 1, 2015, 04:48:21 PM »
This has been a very good thread so lets leave speculation of management to one side as it will only detract from things

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #262 on: June 1, 2015, 06:32:24 PM »
This has been a very good thread so lets leave speculation of management to one side as it will only detract from things

Should this prove difficult for any particular individual please feel free to get in touch. We will attempt to support you by helping you not post for a while  :wave

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What if its not negative speculation, nor transfer related, but commenting on events of the day that may have a large influence on tomorrows review and the decision reached?

I think one of the main reasons many were against giving Rodgers a chance was the availability of top class managers this summer, but now the most likely candidate has taken a break from the game I suspect Rodgers will get the chance to prove last season's collapse was just a blip.

Offline kkhaku

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #263 on: June 1, 2015, 07:08:26 PM »
Leaving out the views of the majority of the supporters that want BR gone mainly due to better alternatives being available, I highly doubt that comes into FSG's thinking about whether to stick with Brendan.

If the owners don't have faith in him to turn us back towards the top 4 and make progress, he's gone - regardless of who is available. If they have that faith, he stays, regardless of who is available.

I suppose if they are on the fence, the number of qualified candidates out there may tip them one way or another, but I don't see an organization like FSG being on the fence about something like this.

At the end of the day, Brendan had one season within expectations, a second overachieving, and a 3rd underachieving. Firing him now would be a bit knee-jerk, especially if his claims that he has not been supported in the transfer market hold any water.

I'm certain the review will consist of Rodgers informing the owners that spreading out the funds in order to add potential and depth to the side backfired on us, as it left us unable to plug the gap left by Suarez. He'll also claim the players that were not his choice performed the worst despite him giving them ample opportunities. Of course Sturridge's injury should be taken into consideration too.

He'll get one more season to prove himself, and he may convince the owners to take a different approach to transfer strategies - although I doubt it.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #264 on: June 1, 2015, 07:26:48 PM »
Hopefully FSG will apologize to him for replacing a 70m striker with a 16m dud and promise him strikers worthy of Lfc`s name so we can compete next season. Brendan nor any of the names mentioned as replacements are magicians, they need top class players to compete. They should be reviewing themselves and their transfer policy to signing top class players instead of a manager who proved being able to do the business with right tools.

Or Rodgers could apologize for prioritizing almost £50 million worth of Southampton players.


Mistakes have been made on both sides.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #265 on: June 1, 2015, 08:22:16 PM »
Well at least all will be clear after Wednesday.

At this stage though with all of the recent briefing of the press, the fact that we already appear to be pursuing transfer targets and that process seems to be largely driven by Rodgers, and also that Klopp appears to be off the market for now, it would be a huge shock to me if Brendan didn't keep his job this summer.

At the same time I don't think anyone would argue that this season has been a significant blow to his authority.

More than ever it will be important for this team to get a good start next season or things could start getting ugly very quickly on and off the pitch.

The question for next season will be of course what does Brendan need to achieve to keep his job beyond that, you would think on the face of it that 4th would be the target but I think that will be extremely difficult to achieve. Would there be a lowering of expectations from the owners and would 5th now be acceptable to them (I have my doubts as to whether it would be to most fans, based on the current mood of those I know)

It's interesting that BR is supposed to set up the team training to peak their fitness for the second half of the season. I wonder if he'll change that, given that if he doesn't make a good start (at least avoids another shockingly bad start), he may not be here for the second half of next season.
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Offline Harinder

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #266 on: June 1, 2015, 08:32:30 PM »
What if its not negative speculation, nor transfer related, but commenting on events of the day that may have a large influence on tomorrows review and the decision reached?

I think one of the main reasons many were against giving Rodgers a chance was the availability of top class managers this summer, but now the most likely candidate has taken a break from the game I suspect Rodgers will get the chance to prove last season's collapse was just a blip.

Well try posting something a bit longer and with reasoned analysis and let see how it goes?  :)

As for the others that have just been removed please safely assume that reading what I stated earlier was not a strong point in your posts hence they've gone. Some may not be able to reply to this because of that
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Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #267 on: June 1, 2015, 08:49:25 PM »
I think the main problem I have is the amount of times we have been let down in the last three years when it really mattered, the games when the crowd were up for it, when we were playing opposition that we believed we were on a par with, the semi-finals, the deciders, the big european nights, the games against Mourinho and John Terry, the games I wanted to win more than beating Norwich or say, Stoke.

The last three years have been appalling in this respect, if we take those games, ones against top 4 sides or top european sides or key cup games (never mind 1 win in 6 against Everton), this is how its gone and this has been what has seperated us from being successful, we just don't appear to be able to hack it;

2012/13
City (H) 2-2
Arsenal (H) 0-2
United (H) 1-2
Chelsea (A) 1-1
United (A) 1-2
Arsenal (A) 2-2
City (A) 2-2
Zenit (H&A) 3-3* lost
Chelsea (H) 2-2

2013/14
Arsenal (A) 0-2
City (A) 1-2
Chelsea (A) 1-2
Arsenal (H) 5-1
Arsenal (A) 1-2
City (H) 3-2
Chelsea (H) 0-2

2014/15
City (A) 1-3
Real Madrid (H) 0-3
Real Madrid (A) 0-1
Chelsea (H) 1-2
Basel (H) 1-1
United (A) 0-3
Arsenal (H) 2-2
Besitkas (H&A) 1-1* lost
City (H) 2-1
Chelsea (H&A) 1-2
United (H) 1-2
Arsenal (A) 1-4
Villa (N) 1-2
Chelsea (A) 1-1

« Last Edit: June 1, 2015, 08:51:14 PM by Black Bull Nova »
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Offline wige

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #268 on: June 1, 2015, 09:58:09 PM »
Agreed, that's a poor run of results, but it also ties in with losing Suarez, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres, Arbeloa, Hyppia, Carragher, Kuyt, Rodriguez - I'm sure there are others who slip my mind. Add in the loss of form/quality of Reina, and the ageing process of Gerrard... There's only so much you can do with a lesser quality of player. Even Rafa, while giving us all Istanbul, achieved 5th with a poor squad of players inherited from the end of Houllier's days.

I'm happy if Rodgers is our Manager next season. Wouldn't have swapped him for Klopp or Rafa. The former I'd be happy to have, but had less teams/wealth to compete with domestically, and has also had a very difficult last season, below expectations. I don't see too much difference to Rodgers there. Rafa would keep an already divided fan base very much apart. Ancelotti though, that made me think. 3 time European Cup winner. Multiple domestic/cup champion. Would attract players. Command, rather than still be earning/developing, respect within the game. If he's not available though, I'm still made up we have Brendan.

Timbo (along with others) has been determined to focus on the lack of strikers through this thread, and rightly so in my book, it's all about the goals that went missing from Suarez/Sturridge. If, IF, we can replace that in the summer, we'll be there or thereabouts next season. Add in a couple of other players who immediately offer more than value that what we have - and we might be a surprise again.

If you break the 3 seasons down into smaller parts, Rodgers' time goes something along these lines:

Season 1 - One fit striker, Suarez, until January - signs Coutinho/Sturridge. January onwards - posts over 2 points per game, aka, top four form.

Season 2 - Continues around 2 ppg until Xmas. January onwards, takes us on an 11 game winning streak, plays the most brilliant expansive game, showing no fear home/away, and takes us to within an inch of the title. From 7th place.

Season 3 - Loses Suarez/Sturridge. Up until xmas form/performance/results range from patchy at best, through poor but lucky all the way to bad. Adapts formation around the midway point, goes on very lengthy  unbeaten run posting title challenging form over about 12-13 games.

It's at this point, looking back, that the major concerns kick in for me. The poor performances in the key games against Man Utd & Villa, the seemingly unsure selections and mid-match changes, the complete loss of confidence towards the end of the season. In itself, I'm not too concerned. A bit of time away to re-think, re-jig, adjust the squad, reflect and review would be beneficial to all. Unfortunately he doesn't work in a vacuum and the split of the fans at large, with outright hatred and venom in some quarters, will make turning things round more difficult. Doesn't make we want him sacked though.

I hope, and have belief, that we could well be at a similar point to his mid-first season, lack of strikers/attacking class. Get him a bit of attacking threat. Then we can go at about 2 points per game. If we have the cash, get him some more. Then we might win it.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #269 on: June 1, 2015, 10:21:37 PM »
The thing that's missing though wige over the three seasons is the ability to defend.

As good as we were in 2013/14 the defence let us down in the end. It's not been addressed adequately by Brendan, his staff or the senior management. Signing Lovren is somewhat indicative of the lack of nous of the TC/Brendan.

We can talk all we like about buying more goals but without a secure defensive unit and/or a tactical approach that lessens the goals we ship we will always be susceptible to failure. It's too simplistic to think that the purchase of a decent striker will make us world beaters. Challenging for top 4 maybe but I want more than that and I hope fellow Reds do too.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #270 on: June 1, 2015, 10:29:18 PM »
I think it's a fair criticism. We have conceded too many. Along with consistent, costly, individual mistakes.

As a counter point, Brendan Rodgers has the club record amount of clean sheets. Better than Rafa/Paisley/Shanks whoever. I don't think you get *lucky* for that stretch of time, collectively anyway.

For me, I tend to look at his age and stage of career - this is an area he can develop and improve. Same as a young, talented, attacking full back.

EDIT - missed your part about wanting more than top four. I completely agree, I want nothing more than complete and utter dominance of world football! Whether that's even plausible considering the wealth an power of other clubs though is questionable! Seriously though, yeah I want the title, a few times. Champions Leagues too (we can overtake Madrid in my lifetime, I'm convinced :) ) I don't really want us to achieve it through a sudden influx of cash, through owner/whatever, rather that we built, and developed and went through the process. One, it'll be a damn sight more satisfying, two - it's likely to generate character and experience that will serve us for a longer stretch of time. Similarly to how our past histories motivate and inspire at crucial times (usually).

The route to titles and trophies, for me, is consistent CL qualification. That's more likely if we're targetting the league, always, every season. If we don't get a title in 2/3 years though, that's not necessarily a failure.
« Last Edit: June 1, 2015, 10:38:44 PM by wige »

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #271 on: June 1, 2015, 11:06:43 PM »
It looks like I might be a line voice here but for me he goes.

I can't honestly see him pushing us forwards especially after the end of season. People seem to have forgotten how woeful we were  in the final games especially as we could have got 4th. We were the in form team coming into the middle of the season and we then imploded. It appeared he had lost the team at possibly worse couldn't motivate them.

For me he is to arrogant with his philosophy when at times he needs to be more adaptable. I'm also fed up with his self hype as well it's like a mourinho lite for me. Don't get me wrong it's nice to have a manner that is not ridiculed by the media or at war with them but at the same time he is way to cosy with them

I think on the transfers there is a split of the blame between the committee and him. All the FSG bashing I imho uncalled for. As has been pointed out they sign the cheques and they haven't shied from that in the past. The problem is who is advising them these are great players to spunk a ton of money on. I think the comittee and Comolli before are/were and issue but I don't thing Rodgers can be trusted. If we are to believe the structure he has final say and sign off on all players. These were his words I believe so he is to blame for the shocking signings.

At this time there are 3 better managers who I believe could seriously do better than Rodgers. We had opportunities to win thinks with a half descent squad yet we just fell apart. Again as mentioned Rafa won the champions league with half the quality he has at his disposal and that the issue for me the other managers out could drive this team to better things.
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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #272 on: June 1, 2015, 11:14:52 PM »
Just putting in news articles isn't really an aid to a debate if you can't actually add any value along side it.
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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #273 on: June 1, 2015, 11:18:30 PM »
We've paid a very heavy price for buying a squad in one window instead of building it over 3 or 4.  Gambles on costly potential and expensive one season players haven't paid off.  Been said a good few times on previous pages so won't start bleating about who shouldn't have brought in as its all too obvious.

Whose fault is it?  Who knows?  The structure and suggestions about the transfer committee paint nothing but a confusing and murky picture.  Makes it so difficult to identify the shortcomings.  Maybe its a collective problem due to the system but there was always going to be one man hung out to dry if it all went tits up.

Do I blame Rodgers?  Managers make mistakes and I believe he is a very good man who isn't blameless.  As has been suggested, maybe the LIverpool job has come 5 or 6 years too early for him.  Maybe last season was about individuals, fewer games and having the rub of the green.  Maybe this season has been about bad signings, too many games and bad luck on the field in games and with injuries to key players.  I reckon the truth lies somewhere in between.  On some matters Brendan has to take the blame.

In respect of the season - Negatives?  Even though I've purposefully given it a week for the dust to settle I could still sit here all night typing about negatives. 

Positives?  Jordon Ibe, Emre Can (in a central position) and the fact that the stadium expansion has started - albeit about 15-20 years after it was required!

Going forward to next season.  Not sure really.  With the exception of Hodgson I haven't been in the position of ever wanting one of our managers sacked and I'm still not.  The owl was the only one who just didn't get anything about the club and fans.  Brendan does and I so want him to succeed and I want him to be given a chance but there are just so many odds stacked against him.

I think the type of player he requires to deliver his 'vision' means we are going to be out-priced in the market for key targets.  We need players with proven technical ability that have done it over a number of seasons at a high level. More concerning is I think that a new spine to the team is required - goalkeeper, a top centre back, a holding midfielder (Can?) and goalscorer - whats the cost of that investment?  £120m-£130m.  What is the chance of getting those players in and it working straight away?  Another year of big investment is needed and will FSG trust him with another shed load of money?  Just can't see it personally.

I look at it this way.  If we invest in the right players and we get a good start under Brendan - fantastic.  I'm confident it will continue and be a good season.  But the doubt is currently there and always will be through the close season.  We need to spend and if we have another pre-season like last season it could set us back numerous years to putting a realistic challenge for top four in.  It will be interesting to see which players we bring in as I notice that we are being linked with mostly free transfers as our (supposedly) main targets.

The Palace 3-1 and Stoke 6-1 could have left irreparable damage to Brendan's relationship with certain players and a lot of the fans.  The fans that want him gone will skin him alive if we don't start well next season.  Most of the other fans who want it to work out could easily lose the faith at a poor start.  Even if Brendan does avoid the boot, it will be either 'hit the ground running' or be ousted early in the season.

I look at the owners and their knowledge of the game.  I look at the way they they ruthlessly culled Kenny.  I look at the lower risk signings we are being linked with.  I look at the links with Klopp and him now saying he's going to take (indefinite) leave from the game after vehemently denying he was having a break a few weeks back (if he's not being lined up here then he's being lined up for somewhere!).  Then I look at when Sturridge is to return - a chap whose goals last season could have evaded all this doubt and, as much as want it to work out (on the memories of the 13/14 seasons brilliant football) I to have doubts he'll be given sufficient opportunity.

Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #274 on: June 1, 2015, 11:22:06 PM »
Agreed, that's a poor run of results, but it also ties in with losing Suarez, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres, Arbeloa, Hyppia, Carragher, Kuyt, Rodriguez - I'm sure there are others who slip my mind. Add in the loss of form/quality of Reina, and the ageing process of Gerrard... There's only so much you can do with a lesser quality of player. Even Rafa, while giving us all Istanbul, achieved 5th with a poor squad of players inherited from the end of Houllier's days.


Although that does not explain how Stoke, Southampton, Swansea, Everton and Spurs have all managed more wins against top 4 sides in the last 3 years than we have. There may be something about this because we have still managed to finish ahead of all these teams. It may be something about our style of play that fails to break down genuinely good teams or foreign teams (who we've almost always struggled against, good or bad). Even last year when we were excellent there was a feeling of fast track bullies (Arsenal game excepted) where we turned over the weaker teams (which we'd always had a problem with) but failed against the stronger teams. This year we've struggled with both to be honest.
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Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #275 on: June 1, 2015, 11:39:38 PM »
If you break the 3 seasons down into smaller parts, Rodgers' time goes something along these lines:

Season 1 - One fit striker, Suarez, until January - signs Coutinho/Sturridge. January onwards - posts over 2 points per game, aka, top four form.

Season 2 - Continues around 2 ppg until Xmas. January onwards, takes us on an 11 game winning streak, plays the most brilliant expansive game, showing no fear home/away, and takes us to within an inch of the title. From 7th place.

Season 3 - Loses Suarez/Sturridge. Up until xmas form/performance/results range from patchy at best, through poor but lucky all the way to bad. Adapts formation around the midway point, goes on very lengthy  unbeaten run posting title challenging form over about 12-13 games.


I also have concerns about Brendans ability to identify strikers, if you look at the strikers he's purchased in his premiership career it goes like this


Danny Graham £3.5m
Leroy Lita £1.75m
Daniel Sturridge £12m
Fabio Borini £10.4m
Iago Aspas £7m
Ricky Lambert £4.5m
Mario Balotelli £16m

Divick Origi £9.8m


Not the greatest set of buys, with hindsight, although we are £60m worse off from the buys

Swansea got promoted in 2010/11 with a real paucity of attacking options, its almost as if Brendan feels pure strikers are a waste of space and its felt like that this season with the three options available once Sturridge got injured rarely taken (possibly for good reason although confidence and game time is an issue with strikers). Some of the problem appears to be that strikers that had been previously quite good have performed poorly in our team, why I do not know, that's why these players look worse in hindsight than they did when they were purchased.
« Last Edit: June 1, 2015, 11:43:16 PM by Black Bull Nova »
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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #276 on: June 2, 2015, 12:42:36 AM »
A big question for me is this: Would another manager have been able to get better use out of the players signed last summer? In my opinion the answer is yes. The signings were not great, although a few have a chance to improve with time. But part of me feels that Brendan perhaps spat his dummy out a little bit and was demonstrably showing his discontent at times throughout the season with his team and squad selections. That said, Balotelli isn't a bad player. Markovic isn't, nor are Manquillo and Moreno. Lovren was a marquee Rodgers buy and the less said about him the better, whilst Lallana can't be judged to the full because of his stop-start season. Add Can to that list and you've got a mixed bag at absolute best. Origi will come in this summer and I do have high hopes for him.

I'm not saying by any means that Rodgers deliberately sabotaged anything or was looking for excuses, I just feel that another manager would have gotten better use out of the likes of Balotelli and Markovic. Those two players in particular seem like confidence players: they need games and reassurance that they are doing the right thing. Being in and out of the side and being played out of position doesn't really cover it. In fact Rodgers' man management skills have come under scrutiny quite a bit and with reason. In all facets of his management last season he seemed incredibly indecisive and unsure of himself. You live and die by what you believe as a manager and I think he tried to please too many people.


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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #277 on: June 2, 2015, 02:25:17 AM »
just read through this whole thread.  fascinating reading :)

anyway, now that rodgers's future is pretty much assured, my main concern is identity.  what is the club's identity, what will it be, and how will it have changed since gerrard's departure?

next season will be the first since we last won the league where we will not have either a league winner or a local talisman in the team.  from the start of the PL, we had rush and barnes bringing through mcmanaman, and then the emergence of fowler, carragher, owen and gerrard; that whole generation of players who came through the academy, experienced LFC's glory days as kids, who had dreams and songs to sing as a result... that fire will be gone next season.  most of our players weren't even born the last time we won the league.  i always thought carragher was a pretty limited player, but the fact that he had that passion for LFC made him perform much better than he would have done anywhere else... and that drove the team on.

the manager will stay, the TC issues will sort themselves out, but we are about to venture forth into a new season with no scouse standard bearer at all when, arguably, we need one more than ever given the inexperience that pervades the club from the owners down to the likely captain.

that disconnect is actually quite worrying... to me, anyway.
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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #278 on: June 2, 2015, 07:40:03 AM »
This has been a very good thread so lets leave speculation of management to one side as it will only detract from things

Should this prove difficult for any particular individual please feel free to get in touch. We will attempt to support you by helping you not post for a while  :wave

Thanking you all in advance!

We dont want any comment on Brendan Rodgers on these boards, even if you are measured and not personal.Even though there may be good reasons to question his tactics , player management, positioning of players and transfer policy. If you do comment you will be banned. Pravdaesque.  :wave

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #279 on: June 2, 2015, 08:25:29 AM »
We dont want any comment on Brendan Rodgers on these boards, even if you are measured and not personal.Even though there may be good reasons to question his tactics , player management, positioning of players and transfer policy. If you do comment you will be banned. Pravdaesque.  :wave

You might be, lots aren't.

I've enjoyed reading this thread. And appreciate that in the main it assumes Brendan is staying, rightly or wrongly.

And I've not seen the mods get heavy with any questioning of his abilities, or lack thereof.

13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.