Author Topic: End of season round table debate (*)  (Read 72946 times)

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #200 on: May 31, 2015, 02:18:16 PM »
Even with Klopp,Rafa or Ancelotti at the helm I still think we would struggle to win the league without massive investment. We believe we have a god given right to titles because of our record through the 80s and 90s.Would those sides have had the record they did with sugar daddy owners at other clubs? I doubt it.

My answer is - yes, they would have won titles. We regularly make it a question about money. No-one says money isn't important. But it isn't the only thing. A sugar daddy owner will have his edge on the financial side. So why don't PSG or Man C play CL Finals every other year? Because there's more to it.

What we had in the 80s and prior to that, was a very good system. It went right through every part of the club. Money won't get you that. And this could be our edge. The most recent example of a club that has it, is probably Southampton. They haven't won the PL, but they are competing with us. They over-achieve. I personally thought they'd crash this season. I thought they'd be fighting for relegation after losing so many key players. But they appear to have a very, very strong system in place. It goes beyond the manager and the first team. And if they can compete with us, why couldn't we compete with those who have more money than us?

A few years ago, Rodgers took us apart when he was in charge of Swansea. He had them play good football. Everyone thought they over-achieved and we thought it was because of Rodgers. Rightly so, we could assume. Swansea had something too, just like Southampton this season. But where are Swansea now? They finished 6 points behind us this season. That's them beating us once and we'd be equal on points. It's after three years of us building a team. And yet, they're so close. Despite having their manager.

Both Swansea and Southampton have found a way. Their way. It's quite impressive. But I don't think it's because of their managers. It goes deeper than that. Give them a bit more time and some stability. It's not beyond them to challenge us and Spurs over the next few years. If we continue like this.




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Offline Alf

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #201 on: May 31, 2015, 02:37:19 PM »
For me Brendan Rodgers is like any player at the club, if we can bring somebody better then we do it.

Last season was awful, a certain element of that was due to Sturridge being injured and nobody could have seen that coming but with Suarez, the club would have known he was going when he signed the new contract 18 months ago. We should have forced Barca's hands when to get Sanchez as part of the deal. Think of the times last season we couldn't find a goal for love nor money, no strikers on the pitch with Balotelli, Borini and Lambert on the bench being given next to no time on the pitch to do anything. We seem to have an obsession with putting as many midfielders on the pitch as possible. Emre Can at right back and Markovic at wing back being 2 examples.

The game at Old Trafford we reverted to the new formation with Brad Jones in goal giving 2 goals away or the week later at home to Arsenal where he give another goal away. We then went a run leading up to the 2 reverse fixtures where put ourselves back in contention only to blow it. Draws at home to Hull, Leicester and Sunderland and also the defeats to Aston Villa & Crystal Palace. Spineless defeats at Crystal Palace, Hull, Newcastle, Stoke and West Ham.  We aspired to get back into the Champions League and had no idea of how to play when we got there. The highlight being an injury time winner at home to Ludogorets, a team who'd nobody had heard of a month before. The low point being trip to the Bernabeu where we rested our best 11 in favor of the home game to Chelsea in the league 5 days later to lose that game as well.

Our 2 top scorers last season were Gerrard and Sterling, where do the goals come from next season. If we do manage to get back into the top 4 then it's difficult see our performances in Europe improving.

Offline JustAnotherRedman

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #202 on: May 31, 2015, 03:08:11 PM »
Alfie. No amount of digging our heels in with Barca would have worked as far as the Suarez for Sanchez deal is concerned. This is how I see the conversation going:

El Pistolero: Gaffa, I'm off. No matter what. Barca are in for me. I just bit an Italian at the WC. I gotta go.
Brodge calls Harley: Harley we need a replacement, get Sanchez from Barca.
Harley calls Barca: We will give you Suarez if you give us Sanchez plus a bag full of gold.
Barca: Aight, we gotta talk to Sancho. You see he's got rights and we can't just force him to do shit.
Barca to Sancho: You gotta go to Libpool. We need Suarez.
Sancho to Barca: Aint happenin. Ma lady friend says she don't like the north west of England. They aint got the glamour.
Barca back to Harley: Sancho aint going to Liverpool no way.

However, Suarez absolutely has to go at this point so there is no way we could have done anything except have something that attracts players of Sanchez' caliber to Anfield. Someone like Klopp.

Offline Johns_Barn

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #203 on: May 31, 2015, 03:09:15 PM »
To those seeking more time for Rodgers, do you honestly look at his current wish list:

Benteke, Ings and Milner (we aren't guaranteed to land any of them)

and get that warm excited glow? Do you honestly look at those names and think, "I see us challenging Sanchez, Hazard, Aguero, Rooney & co"? That these will be these guys leading us out in 2 yrs to the champions league music?

Do you honestly look at our powder puff team that are so easily bullied [think West Ham/Palace this season] and somehow or by some magical force they'll suddenly develop mental steel to grind it out when the chips are down [think Olympiacos, another fairly average lfc team on paper]. Sorry to break it to you but every group/team/organisation is a representation of it's leader. If our team do not have it after THREE YEARS with one man at the helm, then it ain't coming anytime soon. Facht.



Something else to consider about FSG's/Rodger's/LFC's vision of purchasing proven* premier league talent:

Andy Carroll - 35M
Henderson - 16M
Adam - 7M
Downing - 18.5M
Enrique - 6M
Borini - 11M
Allen - 15M
Mignolet - 9M
Lambert -4.5M
Lallana - 25M
Lovren - 20M

Nearly 170M spent on players from teams finishing below us in the league during FSG's time at the club, and the only outright success is Henderson. That is 1 success out of 11 players, with 150M wasted. [/djschembri]
-------------------


Just think what we could get on the continent for that kind of dough with someone that had links/knowledge beyond the fucking Orkney Isles... What does the current wish list have in common? Mediocrity.

The patterns are there to see: You can't get a frog into boiling hot water but put it in cool water, under a low heat...It's so gradual we can't see it. Those name are NOT our solution. Look recent finishes, last season was a blip.
Our fights are with Southampton and Swansea, not the top 4.





Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #204 on: May 31, 2015, 03:09:49 PM »
My answer is - yes, they would have won titles. We regularly make it a question about money. No-one says money isn't important. But it isn't the only thing. A sugar daddy owner will have his edge on the financial side. So why don't PSG or Man C play CL Finals every other year? Because there's more to it.

What we had in the 80s and prior to that, was a very good system. It went right through every part of the club. Money won't get you that. And this could be our edge. The most recent example of a club that has it, is probably Southampton. They haven't won the PL, but they are competing with us. They over-achieve. I personally thought they'd crash this season. I thought they'd be fighting for relegation after losing so many key players. But they appear to have a very, very strong system in place. It goes beyond the manager and the first team. And if they can compete with us, why couldn't we compete with those who have more money than us?

A few years ago, Rodgers took us apart when he was in charge of Swansea. He had them play good football. Everyone thought they over-achieved and we thought it was because of Rodgers. Rightly so, we could assume. Swansea had something too, just like Southampton this season. But where are Swansea now? They finished 6 points behind us this season. That's them beating us once and we'd be equal on points. It's after three years of us building a team. And yet, they're so close. Despite having their manager.

Both Swansea and Southampton have found a way. Their way. It's quite impressive. But I don't think it's because of their managers. It goes deeper than that. Give them a bit more time and some stability. It's not beyond them to challenge us and Spurs over the next few years. If we continue like this.

Good post.

I'm a huge american football fan and if I'm honest I prefer it more than football these days, due to the modern game etc.

The most successful NFL teams are the ones with the best systems, not the richest owners, or the most high profile players.  This of course is helped by the salary cap but even so the point still stands.

Every year there are lots of undrafted players that are deemed to be too poor to be picked.  Many of these are picked up by the teams who think they can perform very well in the system that they play.

The whole coaching and training is set up so that it doesn't really matter who the individuals are to some extent, or course some are more talented than others but as long as they have certain attributes then they can perform well in the functioning system.

Offline DanA

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #205 on: May 31, 2015, 03:43:04 PM »
Good post.

I'm a huge american football fan and if I'm honest I prefer it more than football these days, due to the modern game etc.

The most successful NFL teams are the ones with the best systems, not the richest owners, or the most high profile players.  This of course is helped by the salary cap but even so the point still stands.

Every year there are lots of undrafted players that are deemed to be too poor to be picked.  Many of these are picked up by the teams who think they can perform very well in the system that they play.

The whole coaching and training is set up so that it doesn't really matter who the individuals are to some extent, or course some are more talented than others but as long as they have certain attributes then they can perform well in the functioning system.

But the point doesn't stand. Seven different winner in the past seven years and how often does a team go deep in the playoffs without a franchise quarterback (high profile player)? You can't make a comparison of leagues, the spending power in the Premier League vs a salary capped league puts them miles apart.

If your argument is that Liverpool would do better if they were better run...well yeah, no shit. But if you're trying to tell me Liverpool would have won titles by being better run or if they had a different manager I don't agree. I think the world of Rafa as a manager, there is none better in my eyes but if he couldn't win a title as the 3rd highest spending team then what makes you think he could do it as the 5th highest spending manager in a period where there is an even greater discrepency in spending.
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Offline DanA

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #206 on: May 31, 2015, 03:58:48 PM »
To those seeking more time for Rodgers, do you honestly look at his current wish list:

Benteke, Ings and Milner (we aren't guaranteed to land any of them)

and get that warm excited glow? Do you honestly look at those names and think, "I see us challenging Sanchez, Hazard, Aguero, Rooney & co"? That these will be these guys leading us out in 2 yrs to the champions league music?

Do you honestly look at our powder puff team that are so easily bullied [think West Ham/Palace this season] and somehow or by some magical force they'll suddenly develop mental steel to grind it out when the chips are down [think Olympiacos, another fairly average lfc team on paper]. Sorry to break it to you but every group/team/organisation is a representation of it's leader. If our team do not have it after THREE YEARS with one man at the helm, then it ain't coming anytime soon. Facht.

Something else to consider about FSG's/Rodger's/LFC's vision of purchasing proven* premier league talent:

Andy Carroll - 35M
Henderson - 16M
Adam - 7M
Downing - 18.5M
Enrique - 6M
Borini - 11M
Allen - 15M
Mignolet - 9M
Lambert -4.5M
Lallana - 25M
Lovren - 20M

Nearly 170M spent on players from teams finishing below us in the league during FSG's time at the club, and the only outright success is Henderson. That is 1 success out of 11 players, with 150M wasted. [/djschembri]
-------------------


Just think what we could get on the continent for that kind of dough with someone that had links/knowledge beyond the fucking Orkney Isles... What does the current wish list have in common? Mediocrity.

The patterns are there to see: You can't get a frog into boiling hot water but put it in cool water, under a low heat...It's so gradual we can't see it. Those name are NOT our solution. Look recent finishes, last season was a blip.
Our fights are with Southampton and Swansea, not the top 4.

I'll give you anther "Facht". Alex Ferguson finished 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th in his first four season. It took him until his seventh season to win the league title winning no trophies in those first three seasons. 

And why is Rodgers put in with this group of cherry picked players. 80m of them were bought before he arrived and incidentally where is the 80m player Suarez? You talk about 1 success in 11 players but if you are leaving off the successes then yeah it's going to look bad.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 04:00:48 PM by DanA »
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Offline WaltonRed

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #207 on: May 31, 2015, 04:04:42 PM »
A couple of things which influenced our poor showing that haven't been discussed a huge amount....

1) Luck
People don't want luck to be a factor in anything because it implies a lack of control or in this case blame
But fuck me we were consistently unlucky this season
You can actually measure it analytically (PDO) and we under achieved for most of the season based on our shot differential etc
You can also see it in several games - how different would the season have been for Mario and us if his chance to make it 2-0 in the derby hadn't clipped Howard's shoulder? Little things matter sometimes... Maybe it would have gone the same way but really who knows.

Coupled with this Man United got exceptionally - ridiculously - lucky in the first half of the season. They scored with a really high percentage of their shots on target. They also had a keep who was a ball magnet. Don't get me wrong De Gea is very good but not as good as he looked in the first half of the year when his save rate was totally unsustainable (and it did revert a lot in the second half)
This meant they picked up way more points in the first 1/2 of the season than they normally would have which meant we were always struggling to keep in touch, and then they 'clicked' when it matters

And of course losing Sturridge for the season (which it basically was). It's funny how people want to after time and say 'he's always injured we should have seen it coming' - well not like this he hasn't been. Bar Aguero he's probably the best striker in the league - any club would have struggled without him.

Totally disagree on the "luck" element.

Luck does even itself out over a season and there were plenty of matches where you left thinking "how did we win/ draw that"?  QPR away,  both Southampton games (they could easily with better "luck" have finished above us), etc.  And we rode our luck in a fair few of the early cup games too.   And even when we got "lucky" we didn't capitalise - e.g. results went our way in Round 5 of the Champions League meaning we just needed to win at home against Basel to qualify (with what would have been a very low total) and we couldn't manage it. 
i cannot remember a season where we get overrrun as often as we did in midfield and weren't sufficiently punished.
There are lots of reasons for our appalling season but I just dont think that bad luck was one of them.

Online vblfc

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #208 on: May 31, 2015, 04:06:51 PM »
I like the posters who have pointed out that Brendan is a potentially great coach and when he has good to above average players to work with he can unlock magic.  As has been said, We saw enough of this last year - with and without Luis.  He needed the right talent this year - that's where we derailed.

We all also seem to agree that the TC and/or Brendan just isn't working in terms of getting that talent to him to coach.  It appears some of the buys are Brendan's and some are the TC's doing.  Even though it isn't clear who signed who, the results (apparently by either BR or TC) are not that impressive and this is something that can be urgently addressed. 

Any time John Henry has been around he looks like a man who isn't afraid to act.  So, it is clear to us all that, between John Henry and Brendan, is a serious lack of football seniority, knowledge and ability to attract or buy the right talent.  So John Henry needs to be more direct, decisive and forceful to change his leadership team and I would suggest to put Brendan where he can add most value.  He needs to then appoint a recognised, experienced eye for talent at a level above Brendan to get that part fixed.  Tell Brendan that he gets another chance because we can see his potential by what he can do when the talent is there, so we are acting to fix the talent issue.   Brendan openly admits he needs time with the players - let him focus on this.

To let him go yet could be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  I would like to see an imposed leader of our overall talent strategy.  Someone who the above average to excellent players across Europe would respect and will sign for. 

That needs fixed in any scenario.  Surely it's clear we cant continue the way we are going with the TC etc?  If Brendan isn't successful at working his magic like last year, at least we don't start from scratch again on the player front.  Focus for now on getting the right structure into our club and the right talent onto the pitch.

Offline thejbs

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #209 on: May 31, 2015, 04:11:19 PM »
I'll give you anther "Facht". Alex Ferguson finished 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th in his first four season. It took him until his seventh season to win the league title winning no trophies in those first three seasons. 

And why is Rodgers put in with this group of cherry picked players. 80m of them were bought before he arrived and incidentally where is the 80m player Suarez? You talk about 1 success in 11 players but if you are leaving off the successes then yeah it's going to look bad.

TBF he was talking about the PL 'proven talent' that we bought. If you bring in foreign talent like suarez, you have to bring in the many other foreign imports that also failed. Theres no question that we've had less hits than misses regarding transfers under FSG. Where the blame lies, im not 100% sure.

Ferguson, as a manager, is the exception rather than the rule for most things. Most managers have their best spells in the first 5 years before hitting a wall. He was working in a different era, too. The modern game is different - player power is a greater factor. Supporters are less patient. This can impact on performances.

Offline DanA

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #210 on: May 31, 2015, 04:18:44 PM »
TBF he was talking about the PL 'proven talent' that we bought. If you bring in foreign talent like suarez, you have to bring in the many other foreign imports that also failed. Theres no question that we've had less hits than misses regarding transfers under FSG. Where the blame lies, im not 100% sure.

Ferguson, as a manager, is the exception rather than the rule for most things. Most managers have their best spells in the first 5 years before hitting a wall. He was working in a different era, too. The modern game is different - player power is a greater factor. Supporters are less patient. This can impact on performances.

Okay fair enough on the Prem proven but it's still cherry picked. Where are Sturridge, Bellamy and Toure then. and like I said, a fair portion of those players Rodgers wasn't even around for so why's he lumped in on those? 

And how close did Rodgers (against all odds) get us to winning the 2013/14? Does than not count as a good spell? Really he's got a win % that is competitive with some of our best managers, he just had a shit season and finished one place behind where he should considering spending.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 04:30:22 PM by DanA »
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #211 on: May 31, 2015, 04:32:53 PM »
But the point doesn't stand. Seven different winner in the past seven years and how often does a team go deep in the playoffs without a franchise quarterback (high profile player)? You can't make a comparison of leagues, the spending power in the Premier League vs a salary capped league puts them miles apart.

If your argument is that Liverpool would do better if they were better run...well yeah, no shit. But if you're trying to tell me Liverpool would have won titles by being better run or if they had a different manager I don't agree. I think the world of Rafa as a manager, there is none better in my eyes but if he couldn't win a title as the 3rd highest spending team then what makes you think he could do it as the 5th highest spending manager in a period where there is an even greater discrepency in spending.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I disagree with it. Plus I'm not sure you totally understood my point.

The teams who consistantly make the post season are the ones with the best systems in place.

Yes successful teams often have high profile players, but they often start out as undrafted picks from college or very low picks, deemed to be a pretty poor player by most.  The Patriots have created a dynasty from doing that very thing.  Tom Brady, their now 'superstar' quarterback was a 6th round pick, a very very low down pick, he now has 4 superbowl rings and will go down as one of the best ever.  Kurt Warner was undrafted out of college and led the Rams, dubbed 'The greatest show on turf' to superbowl victory and almost won another with the Cards.

So I believe my point stands.

Get the systems in place, scouting, training, coaching and success will follow.  It can be used in our football as well as american football.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 05:06:41 PM by Red-Soldier »

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #212 on: May 31, 2015, 05:27:37 PM »
Last season was some of the best football I have seen us play in decades. It wasn't all down to Suarez either. This season, before it started, was always going to be difficult. So many new players coming in and Suarez leaving. I basically wrote it off before it started and wasn't wrong to do so. I think the time to judge those signings is next season. I also think this one would have been a lot different if Sturridge had been available. The end of this season was a worrying capitulation that may cost Rodgers his job but it would be a short-sighted decision. We are not as far away as some people think.

I agree with all you say Tom but I fear think we're in a dwindling minority. Certainly we seem to be on here if it isn't quite so apparent out in the street. Fact is a lot aren't really arsed about the real reason why the season was shit. It's enough for them that the debacle it's been has simply provided them with what they see as a solid justification for succumbing to the lure of a Klopp or an Ancelotti to replace Rodgers. The possibilities they see particularly with Klopp are just too enticing for them to be arsed to take on board the positives accrued by Rodgers or the traditional Liverpudlian principle of standing by the manager.

If we could travel back to the late 60's with these same Liverpudlians it'd be very intriguing to see whether those late '60's seasons during which Shanks played second fiddle to the likes of Revie, Clough, Busby and Catterick would have had these advocates of the glamorous 'flavour of the day' manager clamouring for Shanks's removal for one of the rivals that was getting the better of him back then. As it was back then, six years we waited for the manager to bring back the magic and each year despite always falling short we'd all run round from the Kop to the players entrance at the end of the final game of the season to shout our support for Shanks and the team no matter how disappointed we all were.

I can remember using this analogy in various pieces I wrote at the time of the clamouring for Houllier's head barely a couple of years or so after he'd won us a unique cup treble - yeah it was me who coined the analogy though it's been deployed many times since. It proved a futile exercise back then and it's looking increasingly likely it's going a similar way again.

Then again, there was only ever one Shanks and Gerard was a busted flush within the club so I've since learned.

As for Rodgers I guess we'll now just have to wait and see whether there's a Brutus or two within the club as well as the ones on these forums.

 :)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 05:32:19 PM by Timbo's Goals »

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #213 on: May 31, 2015, 05:48:46 PM »
Totally disagree on the "luck" element.

Luck does even itself out over a season and there were plenty of matches where you left thinking "how did we win/ draw that"?

Not necessarily true. It's been proven in other sports, such as baseball, that this isn't the case. There's also variations of this in ice hockey (PDO), which some bloggers have tried to adapt to football,which takes shooting and save percentage to see if a team is overperforming/underperforming. These numbers tend to fluctuate on a yearly basis

Offline AlphaDelta

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #214 on: May 31, 2015, 05:49:21 PM »
"Tottenham were a team maybe looking to challenge for the league this season. They spent £100-odd million on a group that was set up to challenge. But there's no pressure on us. We've shown that over the course of the season."

This statement has most certainly come back to haunt Brendan Rodgers. If you speak to most reds (I would confidently suggest 90%) in this city, then the consensus is this season has been a disaster. Clearly nobody could have forseen the effect Suarez leaving and Sturridge missing most of the season, but when BR made the statement a while back, nobody could envisage folding like a wet paper bag.

For me he or whoever this much proclaimed transfer committee is, need to shoulder the blame big time. I am not saying all of the recruits have been failures, but Balotelli, Markovic, Lambert and co have hardly set the league on fire. In addition our captain and leader has left under a cloud, this is the man who retired from international football to concentrate on club football - only to go six months later.

My concerns are this, who is the main man, the star player, the big name at the club now - who can attract players of that calibre? We had the money to replace Suarez with class and failed, we now have the opportunity to replace to Gerrard but will we? Will we allow youngsters with potential to attempt to shoulder the burden?
I fear the club could ultimately mirror Newcastle of the mid 1990s. Sky labelled them 'The Entertainers' due to their style of style of football, Keegan led them to two consecutive runner up spots in the league and they had a trio of class players in Shearer, Ferdinand and Ginola.
Slowly the class players leave, the club declines and they are left floundering in the bottom half of the table.

Of course I am not saying we are in a similar position, but I do see glaring similarities.......

I am going to finish by saying what many other reds are echoing in this city, under Brendan Rodgers we have played some of the best football I have seen this club play. That could be down to the genius of Luis Suarez and the form of Daniel Sturridge, or it could be down to the tactical genius of our manager. I strongly believe it was the former and for me Brendan Rodgers needs to go.

"I know this is a place for big football moments - we didn't start this story, there were other people. But we know about our responsibility to try to write a few nice stories in football and tonight it was a really nice story."

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #215 on: May 31, 2015, 05:56:47 PM »
Last season was some of the best football I have seen us play in decades. It wasn't all down to Suarez either. This season, before it started, was always going to be difficult. So many new players coming in and Suarez leaving. I basically wrote it off before it started and wasn't wrong to do so. I think the time to judge those signings is next season. I also think this one would have been a lot different if Sturridge had been available. The end of this season was a worrying capitulation that may cost Rodgers his job but it would be a short-sighted decision. We are not as far away as some people think.

Why did you write the season off? I expected us to challenge once again. If we can't expect anything when we've finished 2nd, we'll never expect anything.

Our signings, I think it's too convenient to say they're for next season. What do we mean by that? I mean, I understand not all of them are going to be great as soon as they get on the pitch. It doesn't work like that. But if we spend 100M+ and think they're for next season - why didn't we buy other players? It's the easiest of escapes. And how many players do we really see that start slowly and then come to life? I believe it's wishful thinking. There's the odd case, but Sami, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres, Reina, Suarez, Arbeloa, Sturridge,... I'd say most of them showed their worth early on. They improved, but they were not warming the bench for a season.

If our strategy is to be successful, we should see some great progress next. We're talking 15 points (goals+assists) for Markovic next season. Do we really think he'll get that? Coutinho wasn't even at that level this season. How likely is it that Markovic even is a regular starter? Lovren and Sakho should be dominant players for us. Not just playing, but dominant players. For the fees we paid, they should be among the best CBs in the leauge, if we are to class them as successes. Moreno should look like one of the better LBs in the league. Lallana should be up there with Hazard and Silva. Etc. That's what it looks like when we're successful. At least that's my view of it. One, maybe two could get there. If we're lucky.

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Offline mattD

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #216 on: May 31, 2015, 05:59:25 PM »
My biggest fear of Rodgers sacking is that the Academy is going to be torn up once again, with redundancies made there and any new manager coming in and imposing his 'vision' of how the youngsters should be coached, meaning we are back to square one.

From all reports, we seem to be going in the right direction with our youth, with the likes of Lijnders and Inglethorpe doing a good job of raising the technical standards of our youth. These men were all employed by Rodgers as a way to seal his vision. Important to remember Rodgers was a youth coach who knows the inside-outs of coaching youngsters.

Why this is so important is that I believe we will only win the league again when we have a prosperous academy which is contributing greatly to the first team. Ferguson only soared at United when the nucleus and backbone of his side derived from the youth academy. And personally, I don't believe there is anyone better to promote our academy than Rodgers.

I have confidence in him succeeding in this area, but the major questions I have regarding his tenure is:

*Have we got the knowledgeable and experienced scouts available to guide us towards genuine top talent and prospect in the transfer market? The scouting and acquisition of Balotelli for example tells me these scouts have no conception of the type of football Rodgers wants to play. While many quite rightly criticise Brendan for poor acquisitions, this should not be an excuse to absolve the transfer committee of any blame. They are the scouts who are paid for giving second opinion on targets, and it seems they have been happy to sign off many a poor transfer. I believe they overruled Rodgers signing Williams, but why have they not overruled any of the other disasters. The failure of the committee and Rodgers preferences should cede control to a Director of Football with top level experience and knowledge of European and World football, as opposed to the committee which is made up of men with CV's that don't exactly jump out at you. This is a major criticism of FSG as to why they haven't employed anyone with the top level knowledge required for a top club like Liverpool.

*Does Rodgers's coaching staff have the required experience and knowledge to deal with top level football? Our backroom staff is (A) lightweight in comparison to our peers, and (B), lack the continental, top level experience and success of other top club. I would like to see men with the required CV to help Rodgers implement his ideals on to the field. Yet again, look at the likes of Ferguson who hired Quieroz and Meulensteen who had wide ranging experience across the continent. Any hindrance with Guardiola's inexperience at Barca was diluted by a large backroom staff who had been at the club going well back to the days of Cruyff. A good balance of well experienced coaches with top prospects like Rodgers would be a combination that would work well I think, while expanding in this area (with the acquisiton of a defensive coach) with those who are like minded with the manager's philosophy could only be beneficial.

*Is Rodgers too 'hands on' as a coach? While he is very adept at attacking, this should not cover up the fact our defensive record has been very poor since his arrival and while the start of the year provided hope that he had cracked a holistic approach, such hopes lay in tatters from the Man Utd game onwards. Likewise, delegating to coaches should not be seen as undermining Rodgers himself as many proven managers do it - whether that is Clough, Ferguson, Mourinho, etc. A great manager is always surrounded and guided by great coaches - the backroom staff in itself is a team, and like any team, one star performer isn't going to get us very far.

For me, I back Rodgers as I really do believe we are in possession of a very talented young manager that we must do all we can to keep, but we will only progress with a world class structure which helps nurture him. And the conclusion I have is that, while I believe in our Academy, the rest of our structure concerning recruitment and coaching staff is nowhere near the standard expected of a club like Liverpool. As many on here can testify, the Academy has come on leaps and bounds the past couple of years, and the only reason is that top qualified men are in charge. The club should take note of this as evidence of how acquiring top knowledgeable football men can only help us progress.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 06:05:03 PM by mattD »

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #217 on: May 31, 2015, 06:00:59 PM »
To see the tem totally throw in the towel towards the end of the season makes you think that Rogers has lost the players.

We looked like a total disjointed mess for the majority of the season.

It's a tough one to sack a manager who almost won you the title the season before but I think it might need to happen.  Especially with the likes of Klopp available.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #218 on: May 31, 2015, 06:31:33 PM »
To see the tem totally throw in the towel towards the end of the season makes you think that Rogers has lost the players.

We looked like a total disjointed mess for the majority of the season.

It's a tough one to sack a manager who almost won you the title the season before but I think it might need to happen.  Especially with the likes of Klopp available.

I don't know if it's a case of Rodgers losing the dressing room or a case of their brains being completely frazzled. The team has has had to make do with a tonne of new arrivals, a loss of their best player and injury to their second best player, frustrating results and a shit load of new formations. Everything probably went past the saturation point following the Utd and Arsenal defeats and maybe everyone was mentally shot.

Do I have any sympathy for them or Rodgers? Not a jot. They should have done better in the transfer window and during the season but they messed up both. But I don't think its a case of players not playing for him, maybe just a case of them becoming lost mentally.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #219 on: May 31, 2015, 06:36:20 PM »
Why did you write the season off? I expected us to challenge once again. If we can't expect anything when we've finished 2nd, we'll never expect anything.

Our signings, I think it's too convenient to say they're for next season. What do we mean by that? I mean, I understand not all of them are going to be great as soon as they get on the pitch. It doesn't work like that. But if we spend 100M+ and think they're for next season - why didn't we buy other players? It's the easiest of escapes. And how many players do we really see that start slowly and then come to life? I believe it's wishful thinking. There's the odd case, but Sami, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres, Reina, Suarez, Arbeloa, Sturridge,... I'd say most of them showed their worth early on. They improved, but they were not warming the bench for a season.

If our strategy is to be successful, we should see some great progress next. We're talking 15 points (goals+assists) for Markovic next season. Do we really think he'll get that? Coutinho wasn't even at that level this season. How likely is it that Markovic even is a regular starter? Lovren and Sakho should be dominant players for us. Not just playing, but dominant players. For the fees we paid, they should be among the best CBs in the leauge, if we are to class them as successes. Moreno should look like one of the better LBs in the league. Lallana should be up there with Hazard and Silva. Etc. That's what it looks like when we're successful. At least that's my view of it. One, maybe two could get there. If we're lucky.

I don't think he meant it quite so starkly as the way you're interpreting it G.

If I'm reading it right I think he just meant that the departure of Suarez was a real downer in terms of our overall first eleven strength compared to what had just gone and so the compared to a team with Suarez in it and a few quality additions what we ended up with very shortly after the season commenced with injuries etc and the personnel that was recruited was way short of that.

I'd been asked on here to do a pre-season prediction and had said pretty much the same thing along the lines of "it will make a mockery of the entire transfer strategy if we don't bring in the requisite attacking outlets to replace Suarez and cover for Sturridge's injury vulnerabiliity.

I'd interpreted what Tomred said along those lines.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #220 on: May 31, 2015, 06:40:31 PM »
To see the tem totally throw in the towel towards the end of the season makes you think that Rogers has lost the players.

We looked like a total disjointed mess for the majority of the season.

It's a tough one to sack a manager who almost won you the title the season before but I think it might need to happen.  Especially with the likes of Klopp available.

I don't buy that and I've commented on the sort of easy reasoning/criticism it represents several times in this thread.

The way I saw what happened as the season drew to a close was not that he'd lost the players but that Sterling and Coutinho upon whom we'd relied all season to provide our attacking play were in relative terms simply spent forces by the time we met United. It left the team with barely a solitary threat to anyone and there for the taking. As each game passed their performance levels dropped until at the death we seemed to have nothing left to offer attacking wise and defensively whatever could go wrong went wrong.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 06:44:25 PM by Timbo's Goals »

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #221 on: May 31, 2015, 07:23:51 PM »
I've been creating some preliminary shooting/saving percentage statistics from last season. In 2014/15, we scored 52 goals from 582 shots, which is around 8.9%. To give some context, Arsenal scored 71 goals from 610 shots (11.6%), Aston Villa scored 31 goals from 418 shots (7.4%) and Everton scored 48 goals from 483 shots (9.9%). In 2013/14, we scored an otherworldy/unsustainable 101 goals from 590 shots. That means we scored 17.11% of the time. In 2012/13, we scored 71 goals from 676 shots (10.5%).

So, it is notable that a) our number of shots have decreased each season under Rodgers b) 2013/14, was likely a freakish outlier born by extreme clinical finishing (i.e. luck), which is was in no way sustainable and c) this past season we were either incredibly bad, or incredibly unlucky upfront Our goalkeeper save percentages are similar to that to Arsenal (around 68%) even though they conceded 12 less goals, but the difference in our finishing is quite noticeable. We were worse than an Everton team that struggled to score for a good portion of the season after a quick start and whose save percentages were much worse than ours (63.8% to 68.3&)

Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #222 on: May 31, 2015, 08:46:45 PM »
For me Brendan Rodgers is like any player at the club, if we can bring somebody better then we do it.


In some ways it is indeed like players, if there is a better player we don't hesitate to upgrade if it is in our interests. My views on loyalty changed after Kenny was removed, I was happy to support a club managed by Kenny, regardless of success (we did win something and made two wembley finals remember), because I felt an emotional attachment to the club and the management, now its just the club. That does not mean I would be abusive or unreasonable to any LFC manager(unless they deserved it of course) but ultimately, most managers are just employees like everyone else. I do favour stability but then success and stability I favour more.

It leaves us with choices.

1. Upgrade the manager (twist, but based on the card), ultimately this can't be guaranteed if you hold think you have an ace that the next card will work out but it improves the chances, whoever the choice is. Past success, charisma, player respect all help to make better choices, there's one out there now, probably only one now.

2. Stick, basically keep Brendan in the job, it almost impossible to know what the outcome is based on year 1 (average to poor), year 2, (fantastic, one of the best seasons, without a trophy, I can remember) and year 3 (piss poor, one of the worst full seasons I can remember). My worry is that the vision of the future we have been hinted at (Ings, Benteke and Milner) does not fill me with much optimism, I may be wrong, but sorry, it just doesn't.

3. Twist (blind), remove the current manager then search for a new one, this would be stupid.

With players we often buy new before dispensing with old, everyone accepts this, its harder in management obviously but nevertheless it helps the upgrade process if that's what we choose. I'm for 1 if it can be done, especially if the opportunity, if not taken, is then lost.  If we stick and someone like Klopp decides to take himself to say, West Ham with their shiny new stadium and London money, we could be kicking ourselves for many years.

If not then I will back Brendan fully, I'm sure he understand it, someone who holds out three envelopes to players saying who'll be gone if they don't perform, would surely understand, its a cruel world but no-one is going to starve.
« Last Edit: June 1, 2015, 12:55:31 AM by Black Bull Nova »
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Offline Smug Cassandra

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #223 on: May 31, 2015, 08:58:49 PM »
The appointment of Rodgers was a moneyball signing.

He had no record of wining anything. A gamble on a young manager, hoping to pay under the odds and strike lucky. Last season it almost worked spectacularly. But the reason we didnt win the league is because we couldnt close the league out. Why? The team had no experience of doing it and tellingly the manager didnt. We were naive and arrogant. We could have shut up shop against Chelsea and Palace but we decided to play too much football, the defense wasnt good enough and we arrogantly didnt do it. We should have ran the ball into the corner and ran down the clock.

You reap what you sow. In FSG's case they have reaped nothing in 3 years because they have bought and appointed a cast of inexperienced and amateur staff and players. They have not net spent much on the club and have no intention of going head to head with City, Chelsea, United or Arsenal. FSG will double their money with Liverpool and wont have to break sweat doing it. The new TV deals ensure that and top six finishes with the prospect of more will keep the fans out of full rebellion and will keep the commercial side ticking over. The club will easily be worth double when they come to sell and they wont have to invest much if anything to do it.

I think the biggest issue at the club is behind the scenes, its with the administration and management. Chelsea particularly have a well oiled machine in terms of contract negotiation, club administration, scouting, commercial and PR. They have invested in an experienced, hard nosed team that get the job done and know how to organise piss ups in a brewery. We on the other hand have a team made of thin paper and cotton wool. We will not progress as a club until the non footballing staff at the club, the structure and the management are completely overhauled and we become deadly serious about having personnel that are deadly serious about winning.

On the footballing side we have a weak squad, a week management team. The story of this season has been trial by error, terrible interpersonal management, terrbile tactics, square pegs in round holes and a huge hangover from the previous season. We have squandered a position of strength to stand now at a position of horrific weakness. £120m + to spend, champions league football, a great attacking brand of football, Utd all at sea. All we had to do was improve a few key areas and not send on loan players that are equally as good as expensive replacements.

What has followed has been a giant embarrassment that Brendan has been a key part of. He laughed at Spurs for spending £100m and not challenging for the league. We watched Arsenal a couple of seasons ago playing the campaign with no strikers but it happened to us to the shame of everyone involved. We have allowed Sterling to all but slip through our fingers, we wasted Gerrards last season getting almost nothing out of him when he could have been bedding in some world class players alongside him.

For me Brendan wasn't anywhere near good enough for Liverpool when he signed and for me his is nowhere good enough now. He is a broken figure who has broken relationships with the squad and now a lot of the fans. He has failed to learn the easy way and most of the season has failed to learn the hard way. He is a yes man to FSG who have no intention of pumping in the money for us to win or pumping in the expertise for us to succeed.

Its time to get deadly professional both on and off the pitch. This does not include Brendan Rodgers. We need a proven world class manager that demands resources and knows how to put a structure in place to WIN. We need a team of hugely talented administrators who are hard nosed, driven and calculating. Otherwise we play in the Southampton, Stoke, Spurs league (hopefully) and get sold in 2 or 3 years for a huge profit. No thanks.






« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 09:01:53 PM by laughingstock.com »
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Offline Il Conte

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #224 on: May 31, 2015, 09:15:13 PM »
I've been creating some preliminary shooting/saving percentage statistics from last season. In 2014/15, we scored 52 goals from 582 shots, which is around 8.9%. To give some context, Arsenal scored 71 goals from 610 shots (11.6%), Aston Villa scored 31 goals from 418 shots (7.4%) and Everton scored 48 goals from 483 shots (9.9%). In 2013/14, we scored an otherworldy/unsustainable 101 goals from 590 shots. That means we scored 17.11% of the time. In 2012/13, we scored 71 goals from 676 shots (10.5%).

So, it is notable that a) our number of shots have decreased each season under Rodgers b) 2013/14, was likely a freakish outlier born by extreme clinical finishing (i.e. luck), which is was in no way sustainable and c) this past season we were either incredibly bad, or incredibly unlucky upfront Our goalkeeper save percentages are similar to that to Arsenal (around 68%) even though they conceded 12 less goals, but the difference in our finishing is quite noticeable. We were worse than an Everton team that struggled to score for a good portion of the season after a quick start and whose save percentages were much worse than ours (63.8% to 68.3&)

Interesting stuff! Do you think though that part of the difference between this season and last is the quality of goalscoring opportunities we create? Difficult to put it in numbers I guess but my feeling is that this season we've taken a lot of low precentage shots, often from our midfielders as a result of slow, laboured build up letting the opposition defence settle and organise themselves. Huge contrast to 13/14 imo.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #225 on: May 31, 2015, 09:28:59 PM »
I told myself, ďOne week.Ē The disappointment was too fresh and the embarrassment too prevalent after Stoke for me to properly frame my thoughts on this recent campaign and the issue of the manager. I wanted to give myself a bit of perspective before I waded in on the debate that is currently engulfing our fair club. Well itís been a week and Iím no closer to any sort of answer. Here are the things I think I know:

1) I rate Brendan Rodgers.
2) Campaigns like 2013-2014 donít occur under the watch of inept managers. Period.
3) The vitriol that has been directed at Rodgers by a decent section of supporters sickens me.
4) This past season was wholly unacceptable.
5) There wasnít one single cause of that failure.
6) This club needs a long, hard look in the mirror and must become comfortable with critical self-examination.
7) That self-examination includes all aspects of the club: owners, directors, management, players, and even supporters.

We have to decide what it is we want to be as a club. From how we conduct our transfer business to our system of play on the pitch, thereís been far too much toing and froing for my liking. Iíve largely been supportive of FSG, but there are some major questions they need to face and for which they must find the right answers. I do not think they are to blame for all our woes, but the direction of the club works from the top down and they are ultimately responsible for its steering. Any end of season review that does not include them looking in the mirror isnít worth much. Hopefully, weíll see that.

As for the question of Brendan, Iím finding myself more and more torn. I really do rate him. I think he has the stuff to become a great manager and I largely feel that it is our job as supporters to stick behind the manager unless provided reasons not to. I know that many feel theyíve been provided those reasons and have thus abandoned ship. I know others simply feel that Brendan is a fine manager, but the availability of ďsuperiorĒ managers means we should act. For me, the shift from fully behind Brendan to a slightly more neutral perspective is almost wholly down to the concept of moral hazard. In economics this concept relates to one person taking more risks because another bears the burden for said risks. I define sporting moral hazard differently, though, and I think weíre potentially staring it square in the face. For me, sporting moral hazard is when an individual begins making decisions to preserve his/her job rather than in the ultimate interest of the club or organization. It is undoubted that if we do choose to stick with Brendan over the next week or so he will be on a short leash. Iíve seen many suggest that we should at least give Brendan until December to prove his merit. I find this an extremely dangerous way of thinking. If supporters know that Brendan has the axe hovering over his head then surely so does Brendan and that canít help but impact his decisions. And thatís just the thing. If we stick with him for another six months heíll be making decisions which impact this club long beyond that timeframe.

The most obvious area in which that will rear its head is the transfer market. I certainly donít want to turn this thoughtful thread into any sort of transfer speculation, but I also canít help but notice that the early rumours of our summer business are less than inspiring. Itís been often stated by journalists largely respected around these parts that weíre looking to bring in ďPremiership provenĒ talent and this comes with the backing of Brendan. Itís what first broached the subject of moral hazard in my mind. The thought that Brendan is looking to go the safe route because he knows his neck is on the line. I canít necessarily blame him. The prospect of losing such a unique position in world football just 12 months after being the toast of the league canít be comfortable. I canít help feeling, though, that for the club itíd taking one step forward to take two backwards. I donít think we can afford to go the safe route any longer. Itís proven fruitless for us time and again. We need a visionary. We need to take risks. We need to swing big. That is certainly not all down to the manager, but he is an integral cog in the machine. The minute he begins making decisions to preserve his job itís time to cut bait. Iím not in any position to accurately judge if thatís happening now, but it worries me greatly that my nose, at the very least, caught the whiff of it.

Simply put, I canít in good conscience get behind any sort of wait-and-see plan. The club canít afford it. Weíve got to be proactive. We have had 36 months to judge whether heís the right man for the job. In all truth that should be enough. If we deem heís the best man for the job whoís been hamstrung by other areas of the club then that needs to addressed immediately. On the other hand, if weíre still not sure that heís the right man for us then that probably tells us our answer. I still think he is. I rate him and I like him, but I can also feel the wind shifting amongst the support and even slightly in my own mind.

Every summer is a big one at a club of this stature. This summer feels especially unique, however. Daws and I were having a discussion in another thread a few days ago and we described our squad (especially up front) as a bit of a blank canvas. Outside of Sturridge (on whom we can no longer depend), all our strikers seem to be on the way out. Sterling might very well follow. Our captain and the stalwart of this club for the past 15+ years is off to pastures new. Our decisions over the next 2-3 months will determine what sort of imprint we leave on that canvas. It will largely set our course for the next 2-3 seasons. What type of club do we want to be? What type of football do we want to play? Around what profile of footballer do we want to build our side? These are all massive questions which need to and will be answered this summer and the manager will play a crucial role in providing these answers. We need someone in that role (especially without a DoF) whose eye is always trained on what is best for Liverpool Football Club. If Brendan can clearly focus on that and avert all the distractions then I believe he can be a big part of this clubís future. I increasingly worry, however, that his decisions will largely be influenced by fear of his own dismissal. While perfectly natural and understandable from a human perspective, I think it could be disastrous for the club. No easy answers here.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 09:32:57 PM by Vork+The Knights of Good »
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Offline RedKenWah

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #226 on: May 31, 2015, 10:04:28 PM »
For what it's worth, FSG do at times get a lot of stick, and some of it is absolutely deserved, but other times it isn't. Their treatment of Kenny Dalglish, they deserve all the stick in the world, you don't treat a legend of the club and the city like that, never ever...

however what they can't be accused of doing is putting their hand in their pockets. They could have come up with some cock and bull and kept part of the Luis Suarez money but they didn't, they let Brendan spend it. They've started building a stadium extension, which is something that we have craved for in a commercial sense for donkey years and will finally be matching attendances closer to what Arsenal & co have, and again they have done that or are doing it now so that has to be praised. So when it comes to money and putting it into the squad, they are doing it. The fact that targets we go for decide not to come in, well that is down to us as a club not pushing hard enough and is something that FSG need to look at, and also the players we got this summer, they can say well we paid the money for them, if they turned shite then that has to do with the identification of such players...

BTW i'm not some FSG yes man or what not, they have their faults, the lack of them attending games, Mighty Fucking Red... and their insistence on making managers go to Boston for reviews instead of them coming over to Liverpool and holding talks over here where the club is based at... those are things that can be leveled against them as well as ticket prices for games...

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #227 on: May 31, 2015, 10:08:46 PM »
Some brilliant and well thought out posts in here so thank you all for inputting in such a great way :)
Just clicked on the main board and my virus scanner came back with this

"When we visited this site, we found it exhibited one or more risky behaviors."


:lmao

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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #228 on: May 31, 2015, 10:13:59 PM »
I don't think he meant it quite so starkly as the way you're interpreting it G.

If I'm reading it right I think he just meant that the departure of Suarez was a real downer in terms of our overall first eleven strength compared to what had just gone and so the compared to a team with Suarez in it and a few quality additions what we ended up with very shortly after the season commenced with injuries etc and the personnel that was recruited was way short of that.

I'd been asked on here to do a pre-season prediction and had said pretty much the same thing along the lines of "it will make a mockery of the entire transfer strategy if we don't bring in the requisite attacking outlets to replace Suarez and cover for Sturridge's injury vulnerabiliity.

I'd interpreted what Tomred said along those lines.

Oh, I might have interpreted it the wrong way. Suarez' departure was bad, but I expected Sturridge to play a lot more. And I thought we'd deliberately try and change our game. Never expected us to fail so much. We had reason to be optimistic.

        * * * * * *


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Offline RedKenWah

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #229 on: May 31, 2015, 10:22:14 PM »
I told myself, ďOne week.Ē The disappointment was too fresh and the embarrassment too prevalent after Stoke for me to properly frame my thoughts on this recent campaign and the issue of the manager. I wanted to give myself a bit of perspective before I waded in on the debate that is currently engulfing our fair club. Well itís been a week and Iím no closer to any sort of answer. Here are the things I think I know:

1) I rate Brendan Rodgers.
2) Campaigns like 2013-2014 donít occur under the watch of inept managers. Period.
3) The vitriol that has been directed at Rodgers by a decent section of supporters sickens me.
4) This past season was wholly unacceptable.
5) There wasnít one single cause of that failure.
6) This club needs a long, hard look in the mirror and must become comfortable with critical self-examination.
7) That self-examination includes all aspects of the club: owners, directors, management, players, and even supporters.

We have to decide what it is we want to be as a club. From how we conduct our transfer business to our system of play on the pitch, thereís been far too much toing and froing for my liking. Iíve largely been supportive of FSG, but there are some major questions they need to face and for which they must find the right answers. I do not think they are to blame for all our woes, but the direction of the club works from the top down and they are ultimately responsible for its steering. Any end of season review that does not include them looking in the mirror isnít worth much. Hopefully, weíll see that.

As for the question of Brendan, Iím finding myself more and more torn. I really do rate him. I think he has the stuff to become a great manager and I largely feel that it is our job as supporters to stick behind the manager unless provided reasons not to. I know that many feel theyíve been provided those reasons and have thus abandoned ship. I know others simply feel that Brendan is a fine manager, but the availability of ďsuperiorĒ managers means we should act. For me, the shift from fully behind Brendan to a slightly more neutral perspective is almost wholly down to the concept of moral hazard. In economics this concept relates to one person taking more risks because another bears the burden for said risks. I define sporting moral hazard differently, though, and I think weíre potentially staring it square in the face. For me, sporting moral hazard is when an individual begins making decisions to preserve his/her job rather than in the ultimate interest of the club or organization. It is undoubted that if we do choose to stick with Brendan over the next week or so he will be on a short leash. Iíve seen many suggest that we should at least give Brendan until December to prove his merit. I find this an extremely dangerous way of thinking. If supporters know that Brendan has the axe hovering over his head then surely so does Brendan and that canít help but impact his decisions. And thatís just the thing. If we stick with him for another six months heíll be making decisions which impact this club long beyond that timeframe.

The most obvious area in which that will rear its head is the transfer market. I certainly donít want to turn this thoughtful thread into any sort of transfer speculation, but I also canít help but notice that the early rumours of our summer business are less than inspiring. Itís been often stated by journalists largely respected around these parts that weíre looking to bring in ďPremiership provenĒ talent and this comes with the backing of Brendan. Itís what first broached the subject of moral hazard in my mind. The thought that Brendan is looking to go the safe route because he knows his neck is on the line. I canít necessarily blame him. The prospect of losing such a unique position in world football just 12 months after being the toast of the league canít be comfortable. I canít help feeling, though, that for the club itíd taking one step forward to take two backwards. I donít think we can afford to go the safe route any longer. Itís proven fruitless for us time and again. We need a visionary. We need to take risks. We need to swing big. That is certainly not all down to the manager, but he is an integral cog in the machine. The minute he begins making decisions to preserve his job itís time to cut bait. Iím not in any position to accurately judge if thatís happening now, but it worries me greatly that my nose, at the very least, caught the whiff of it.

Simply put, I canít in good conscience get behind any sort of wait-and-see plan. The club canít afford it. Weíve got to be proactive. We have had 36 months to judge whether heís the right man for the job. In all truth that should be enough. If we deem heís the best man for the job whoís been hamstrung by other areas of the club then that needs to addressed immediately. On the other hand, if weíre still not sure that heís the right man for us then that probably tells us our answer. I still think he is. I rate him and I like him, but I can also feel the wind shifting amongst the support and even slightly in my own mind.

Every summer is a big one at a club of this stature. This summer feels especially unique, however. Daws and I were having a discussion in another thread a few days ago and we described our squad (especially up front) as a bit of a blank canvas. Outside of Sturridge (on whom we can no longer depend), all our strikers seem to be on the way out. Sterling might very well follow. Our captain and the stalwart of this club for the past 15+ years is off to pastures new. Our decisions over the next 2-3 months will determine what sort of imprint we leave on that canvas. It will largely set our course for the next 2-3 seasons. What type of club do we want to be? What type of football do we want to play? Around what profile of footballer do we want to build our side? These are all massive questions which need to and will be answered this summer and the manager will play a crucial role in providing these answers. We need someone in that role (especially without a DoF) whose eye is always trained on what is best for Liverpool Football Club. If Brendan can clearly focus on that and avert all the distractions then I believe he can be a big part of this clubís future. I increasingly worry, however, that his decisions will largely be influenced by fear of his own dismissal. While perfectly natural and understandable from a human perspective, I think it could be disastrous for the club. No easy answers here.

Nice post first and foremost. I think your point reference the previous season as we can call it now is a well made point. We can't honestly think that Brendan just fluked his way to that sort of season no way and it would be very foolish to suggest otherwise. We can say though that the energy and attitude brought along by Luis Suarez though definitely helped, and helped raise other players game. In making this point it should highlight to Brendan & Liverpool that if you can identify that player who can inspire those around him by either spraying balls 40 - 80 yards with pin point accuracy, or a bloke who will run around like an absolute lunatic for 100 mins to win the ball and harass another team and gets the fans gee'd up, then that inspires the other players around them to put in that little bit extra effort. Obviously for us though because of the position we find ourselves in, we are going to have to be smart in our search, and for me, that search must be made abroad, where other clubs don't look and find that hidden gem and as soon as we find him, we have to make that move and grab him and then nurture him and make him into that person who will inspire others.

again on transfers, we have to be smart, we need goal scorers, we need a midfield reinforcement, we need players, and we need to be smart about it, and we have to take that risk, going "proven premiership" route doesn't always work and it also leads to a high commodity as well just because thats how english clubs like to work... we need to be ploughing into a different league and pinpointing other players.

Love your analogy of a blank canvas, it's very good and very fitting for us, but i think the blank canvas has to be extended beyond the strikers, it'll have to be going through to the midfield as well or to the suppliers for the strikers. Stevie Gerrard going is a massive hole for us to fill in and i think in all honesty needs a couple of players to do that. I think we'll have to go down a route of getting a midfield general who will boss the centre of the park like Lucas does (and can also act as cover/competition to Lucas as well), and another midfielder who will provide that attacking threat. That way give us lots of options for the midfield.

Quote
As for the question of Brendan, Iím finding myself more and more torn. I really do rate him. I think he has the stuff to become a great manager and I largely feel that it is our job as supporters to stick behind the manager unless provided reasons not to. I know that many feel theyíve been provided those reasons and have thus abandoned ship. I know others simply feel that Brendan is a fine manager, but the availability of ďsuperiorĒ managers means we should act. For me, the shift from fully behind Brendan to a slightly more neutral perspective is almost wholly down to the concept of moral hazard. In economics this concept relates to one person taking more risks because another bears the burden for said risks. I define sporting moral hazard differently, though, and I think weíre potentially staring it square in the face. For me, sporting moral hazard is when an individual begins making decisions to preserve his/her job rather than in the ultimate interest of the club or organization. It is undoubted that if we do choose to stick with Brendan over the next week or so he will be on a short leash. Iíve seen many suggest that we should at least give Brendan until December to prove his merit. I find this an extremely dangerous way of thinking. If supporters know that Brendan has the axe hovering over his head then surely so does Brendan and that canít help but impact his decisions. And thatís just the thing. If we stick with him for another six months heíll be making decisions which impact this club long beyond that timeframe.

if we stuck with Brendan, which if that is the course the club decides to take, i'll support but not necessary agree with, if Klopp or someone of that ilk is available, but anyway if they stick with him, then they are creating drama's for themselves. Simply because of this logic of "give him 6 months" or "give him til Dec and see where we are at" will undoubtedly play out like a drama each week and only adds to more pressure on not only the manager, but the squad as well, and is pressure that we can do without. It's again something that the club needs to think about, regardless of whoever's stance on Brendan is, his stock has taken a massive hit this season - from the Real Madrid Away game of surrendering, to the point from Man Utd game onwards and the stoke game has compounded that... it's going to take an almighty effort from Brendan to make up that lost ground from what he had built up the previous season.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #230 on: May 31, 2015, 10:30:37 PM »
I'd been wondering where the discussion about the future of the LFC manager was on this LFC board.

Turns out it was in here all along and at a tremendous standard to boot.  Thanks for your contributions, lads.
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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #231 on: May 31, 2015, 10:45:25 PM »
I agree with all you say Tom but I fear think we're in a dwindling minority. Certainly we seem to be on here if it isn't quite so apparent out in the street. Fact is a lot aren't really arsed about the real reason why the season was shit. It's enough for them that the debacle it's been has simply provided them with what they see as a solid justification for succumbing to the lure of a Klopp or an Ancelotti to replace Rodgers. The possibilities they see particularly with Klopp are just too enticing for them to be arsed to take on board the positives accrued by Rodgers or the traditional Liverpudlian principle of standing by the manager.

If we could travel back to the late 60's with these same Liverpudlians it'd be very intriguing to see whether those late '60's seasons during which Shanks played second fiddle to the likes of Revie, Clough, Busby and Catterick would have had these advocates of the glamorous 'flavour of the day' manager clamouring for Shanks's removal for one of the rivals that was getting the better of him back then. As it was back then, six years we waited for the manager to bring back the magic and each year despite always falling short we'd all run round from the Kop to the players entrance at the end of the final game of the season to shout our support for Shanks and the team no matter how disappointed we all were.

I can remember using this analogy in various pieces I wrote at the time of the clamouring for Houllier's head barely a couple of years or so after he'd won us a unique cup treble - yeah it was me who coined the analogy though it's been deployed many times since. It proved a futile exercise back then and it's looking increasingly likely it's going a similar way again.

Then again, there was only ever one Shanks and Gerard was a busted flush within the club so I've since learned.

As for Rodgers I guess we'll now just have to wait and see whether there's a Brutus or two within the club as well as the ones on these forums.

 :)

Everyone keeps going on about last season but the question is....does he want to play that way? For me, judging this his first season and last season and our transfer targets....it's a resounding no.
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Offline gandalf50

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #232 on: May 31, 2015, 10:49:39 PM »
TBF he was talking about the PL 'proven talent' that we bought. If you bring in foreign talent like suarez, you have to bring in the many other foreign imports that also failed. Theres no question that we've had less hits than misses regarding transfers under FSG. Where the blame lies, im not 100% sure.

Ferguson, as a manager, is the exception rather than the rule for most things. Most managers have their best spells in the first 5 years before hitting a wall. He was working in a different era, too. The modern game is different - player power is a greater factor. Supporters are less patient. This can impact on performances.
I think another important thing with Ferguson was that he saw his job as finding success for Manu above all else. He had no problem changing his coaching staff or dumping players who didn't fit.
I also don't like the xenophobic attitude (my perception) towards foreign players.
There really isn't.  I think a lot of us, even our own have started doubting it. It's time to rise up. And take what is rightfully ours. It's a big mountain, but what is the point in achieving something, which everyone can?

Fate has given us a mountain too big. We have to rise. We have to believe.

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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #233 on: May 31, 2015, 11:07:39 PM »
Interesting stuff! Do you think though that part of the difference between this season and last is the quality of goalscoring opportunities we create? Difficult to put it in numbers I guess but my feeling is that this season we've taken a lot of low precentage shots, often from our midfielders as a result of slow, laboured build up letting the opposition defence settle and organise themselves. Huge contrast to 13/14 imo.

I'd agree with that. I think Suarez probably gave us more of a varied threat last season, as he created space for others and was a nuisance for the opposition. Interestingly, though we had less shots in 2013/14 than in Brendan's first year. As for last season, it's interesting to contrast who is taking most of our total shots:

In 2012/13, the player taking the 5th highest number of shots was Daniel Agger of all people. Coutinho took two fewer than Agger and had the same number of goals.

Suarez: 187 (23 goals)
Gerrard: 93 (9 goals)
Sturridge: 70 (11 goals)
Downing: 51 (3 goals)
Agger: 38 (3 goals)

In 2013/14, Suarez took almost double the amount of shots of Sturridge, but the latter was more clinical. Gerrard's numbers begin to decline, while Coutinho's rose.

Suarez: 181 (31 goals)
Sturridge: 99 (21 goals)
Coutinho: 94 (5 goals)
Gerrard: 60 (13 goals)
Henderson: 49 (4 goals)

In 2014/15, our leading shot taker was Coutinho, who was more wasteful than in the previous two seasons, most likely because he was a) taking riskier long-range shots and b) was lacking a forward option. Balotelli was also incredibly wasteful, despite the fact he hardly played. Gerrard's shot-taking total also decreased considerably from 2012/13, most likely due to age, positioning and form. Combined our four forwards (Balotelli, Lambert, Borini and Sturridge) took 128 shots and only scored 8 times. That's a conversion rate of 6.25%. Daniel Agger was hitting the net at a better rate (7.89%) in 2012/13 than that

Coutinho: 103 (5 goals)
Sterling: 84 (7 goals)
Balotelli: 56 (1 goal)
Gerrard: 54 (9 goals)
Henderson: 50 (6 goals)




Brilliant post. Completely agree.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #235 on: June 1, 2015, 12:16:58 AM »
The appointment of Rodgers was a moneyball signing.

He had no record of wining anything. A
gamble on a young manager, hoping to pay under the odds and strike lucky. Last season it almost worked spectacularly. But the reason we didnt win the league is because we couldnt close the league out. Why? The team had no experience of doing it and tellingly the manager didnt. We were naive and arrogant. We could have shut up shop against Chelsea and Palace but we decided to play too much football, the defense wasnt good enough and we arrogantly didnt do it. We should have ran the ball into the corner and ran down the clock.

You reap what you sow. In FSG's case they have reaped nothing in 3 years because they have bought and appointed a cast of inexperienced and amateur staff and players. They have not net spent much on the club and have no intention of going head to head with City, Chelsea, United or Arsenal. FSG will double their money with Liverpool and wont have to break sweat doing it. The new TV deals ensure that and top six finishes with the prospect of more will keep the fans out of full rebellion and will keep the commercial side ticking over. The club will easily be worth double when they come to sell and they wont have to invest much if anything to do it.

I think the biggest issue at the club is behind the scenes, its with the administration and management. Chelsea particularly have a well oiled machine in terms of contract negotiation, club administration, scouting, commercial and PR. They have invested in an experienced, hard nosed team that get the job done and know how to organise piss ups in a brewery. We on the other hand have a team made of thin paper and cotton wool. We will not progress as a club until the non footballing staff at the club, the structure and the management are completely overhauled and we become deadly serious about having personnel that are deadly serious about winning.

On the footballing side we have a weak squad, a week management team. The story of this season has been trial by error, terrible interpersonal management, terrbile tactics, square pegs in round holes and a huge hangover from the previous season. We have squandered a position of strength to stand now at a position of horrific weakness. £120m + to spend, champions league football, a great attacking brand of football, Utd all at sea. All we had to do was improve a few key areas and not send on loan players that are equally as good as expensive replacements.

What has followed has been a giant embarrassment that Brendan has been a key part of. He laughed at Spurs for spending £100m and not challenging for the league. We watched Arsenal a couple of seasons ago playing the campaign with no strikers but it happened to us to the shame of everyone involved. We have allowed Sterling to all but slip through our fingers, we wasted Gerrards last season getting almost nothing out of him when he could have been bedding in some world class players alongside him.

For me Brendan wasn't anywhere near good enough for Liverpool when he signed and for me his is nowhere good enough now. He is a broken figure who has broken relationships with the squad and now a lot of the fans. He has failed to learn the easy way and most of the season has failed to learn the hard way. He is a yes man to FSG who have no intention of pumping in the money for us to win or pumping in the expertise for us to succeed.

Its time to get deadly professional both on and off the pitch. This does not include Brendan Rodgers. We need a proven world class manager that demands resources and knows how to put a structure in place to WIN. We need a team of hugely talented administrators who are hard nosed, driven and calculating. [/s]Otherwise we play in the Southampton, Stoke, Spurs league (hopefully) and get sold in 2 or 3 years for a huge profit. No thanks.[/s]

In amongst the antagonism there, there's some key themes that resonate with me
« Last Edit: June 1, 2015, 12:35:24 AM by kcbworth »

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #236 on: June 1, 2015, 12:47:21 AM »
"Donít criticize what you donít understand, son. You never walked in that manís shoes."

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #237 on: June 1, 2015, 01:13:42 AM »
I agree with all you say Tom but I fear think we're in a dwindling minority. Certainly we seem to be on here if it isn't quite so apparent out in the street. Fact is a lot aren't really arsed about the real reason why the season was shit. It's enough for them that the debacle it's been has simply provided them with what they see as a solid justification for succumbing to the lure of a Klopp or an Ancelotti to replace Rodgers. The possibilities they see particularly with Klopp are just too enticing for them to be arsed to take on board the positives accrued by Rodgers or the traditional Liverpudlian principle of standing by the manager.

If we could travel back to the late 60's with these same Liverpudlians it'd be very intriguing to see whether those late '60's seasons during which Shanks played second fiddle to the likes of Revie, Clough, Busby and Catterick would have had these advocates of the glamorous 'flavour of the day' manager clamouring for Shanks's removal for one of the rivals that was getting the better of him back then. As it was back then, six years we waited for the manager to bring back the magic and each year despite always falling short we'd all run round from the Kop to the players entrance at the end of the final game of the season to shout our support for Shanks and the team no matter how disappointed we all were.

I can remember using this analogy in various pieces I wrote at the time of the clamouring for Houllier's head barely a couple of years or so after he'd won us a unique cup treble - yeah it was me who coined the analogy though it's been deployed many times since. It proved a futile exercise back then and it's looking increasingly likely it's going a similar way again.

Then again, there was only ever one Shanks and Gerard was a busted flush within the club so I've since learned.

As for Rodgers I guess we'll now just have to wait and see whether there's a Brutus or two within the club as well as the ones on these forums.

 :)

Good points here Alan! 

For those of us who enjoy our attachments and the prevailing loyalties in our football, it is an interesting fork in the road so to speak, as besides Arsene, Brendan has to be one of the longest tenured managers in the prem with only three years at LFC.   

For some reason, this affords some to want to cut bait and move onto the next shiny symbol (often a mirage of the footballing gods).
For others, though, this is what is wrong with football --- where money trumps relationships, shorterm-ism trumps sanity.  Pretty sad. 

It is no wonder we see this division in the supporters,  the entire system is designed to be picked apart (often focusing on issues which are not central) and offered up to the supporters as some sort of coliseum entertainment.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #238 on: June 1, 2015, 02:59:35 AM »

I hope FSG stick with Rodgers and I hope he doesn't resign.

In 2013/14, he rode imperiously on a tidal wave of support. That seems to be wavering, to say the least. The man knows he made mistakes last season. But he's human. The pictures of him after the Stoke game were images of a man who looked crushed. I'm sorry, but there isn't a job in the world that should reduce a human being to that state. Certainly not the manager of a football club.

In his first season, we gave him time to settle. There was some improvement. His second season was one of unimaginable delight. His third season was hit and miss, admittedly largely miss. This last season has certainly shown him what managing in the big time really means. Over the last three years, he has experienced the highs and the lows in equal measure.

It is said that adversity makes us stronger. I want to see him given that opportunity. I want to see how he reacts. I want to see how much he has learned. Throwing him out of the club now just seems like a panicked reaction.

It is also said that players don't become crap overnight. Are managers not allowed the same sentiment?

Liverpool FC will not fall by the wayside by giving our manager another season. Everyone deserves a second chance. Or are we too special for that kind of thing?
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #239 on: June 1, 2015, 08:57:45 AM »
 

For some reason, this affords some to want to cut bait and move onto the next shiny symbol (often a mirage of the footballing gods).
For others, though, this is what is wrong with football --- where money trumps relationships, shorterm-ism trumps sanity.  Pretty sad. 

It is no wonder we see this division in the supporters,  the entire system is designed to be picked apart (often focusing on issues which are not central) and offered up to the supporters as some sort of coliseum entertainment.



If a picture paints a thousand words.

Must be like looking in a fucking mirror for some of our lot.

 ;D

Joke - it's a free country - if folks fancy a new model or want rid of the present model then I guess it's their prerogative. Just because some of us find such an attitude sickening and reprehensible doesn't mean folks aren't perfectly entitled to stab people in the back - oops
« Last Edit: June 1, 2015, 09:03:04 AM by Timbo's Goals »