Author Topic: End of season round table debate (*)  (Read 71820 times)

Offline Hinesy

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End of season round table debate (*)
« on: May 24, 2015, 06:06:40 PM »
This was written after the last game of the season

My simple question is this: Is Brendan the right manager for the job?

This last game, irrespective of when it came, is significant. Scores like that aren't simply a bad day at the office. But was it players not playing well, or badly set up? Were they 'on holiday' or were they actually making a point by not playing for the manager? Has he lost a dressing room?

My thoughts are this, based on simple logic: I can't believe every player on that pitch dislikes Rodgers, and/or won't 'play' for him. Also we lost out on the Europa slot, and I think footballers want to play in Europe. Some of them may even have bonus contracts for European football. Also professional pride must surely set in. And maybe even if one or two don't like him, apart from Gerrard, there are no natural leaders on that pitch. Henderson isn't one. The rest are not 'heavyweight' enough. Possibly Lucas and Skrtel are the two longest serving but its not that.

So what then? Can was terrible in defence today yet he's played there often now and not been that bad. In fact I'm fairly sure that team has played together before and not been that lacklustre, even if not the exact line up then close enough. Stoke always give is a good game and a couple of goals were defence nonsense but I think there was a definite lack of vim, energy, momentum, in the side.
There was no recognised striker, and a light weight feel to the midfield but we lack a Hamann anyway, and Stoke made us pay.

Henderson really needs to improve his quick instant reaction thought process, his intelligence isn't good enough to see the best pass at speed. So he needs to play somewhere where he has more time on the ball. Is Rodgers asking too much of him too soon?

Gerrard leaving: Could that have been a factor, end of era stuff? It was, last week at Anfield, in fact the same game was played last week and the same problems.

Should Rodgers have played Sterling instead of playing hardball? Surely his main intention is to get the best results, irrespective of politics; perhaps he thought he could've done both this week, but knowing how Stoke played earlier at ours, he can't have been naïve enough to think it was a dead rubber?

I really don't know. He wasn't the messiah last season and he's not the devil this season. For him is the argument we've been hocked and held back by losing Suarez and Sturridge's injuries. Against is the fact we knew this would happen. For him was the potential of Mario. Against him was er Mario. For him is the two semi finals and a miss by Lallana against Utd at home that he would've should've buried, these margins are tight, against him is the lack of tactical progression. That last accusation was aimed at Pellegrini after playing us and Barcelona, he still didn't change, is Rodgers as obstinate?

Either way, its been a shite season, and I think the best way I can sum it up is that not all of it is his fault, but some of it is. Is that bit enough to give him another season or get someone else in? I really don't know.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 01:59:29 PM by Hinesy »
Yep.

Offline John C

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2015, 08:19:21 PM »
There's only one circumstance I'd want Brendan to go immediately and that's the thought of appointing Klopp & him bringing men-machines with him. Footballers drilled to win, stalwarts that don't necessarily have any affiliation with the club but possess a collective energy and ability to grind results with passion. It may change the complexion of our club but we need something to lift this fucking jinx now.

Otherwise there's nobody else I'd replace him with currently, its too risky. I'd give him until November/December and if things remain the same then it would be intolerable and the inevitable risk would have to be taken. But Brendan does need to change, its all very well people saying he shows flexibility with his selections, shapes & formations - but half the time it's bewildering.

If they sack him & brought Rafa back I'd be a tad excited but very, very, very apprehensive. But I really don't think that is an option anyway.

It doesn't feel that the Reds are in a good place at the moment, I'm not sure 2 great goal-scorers would be the panacea, we may need a big fix but its getting the timing right.

Offline Col

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2015, 09:30:20 PM »
There's only one circumstance I'd want Brendan to go immediately and that's the thought of appointing Klopp & him bringing men-machines with him. Footballers drilled to win, stalwarts that don't necessarily have any affiliation with the club but possess a collective energy and ability to grind results with passion. It may change the complexion of our club but we need something to lift this fucking jinx now.

Otherwise there's nobody else I'd replace him with currently, its too risky. I'd give him until November/December and if things remain the same then it would be intolerable and the inevitable risk would have to be taken. But Brendan does need to change, its all very well people saying he shows flexibility with his selections, shapes & formations - but half the time it's bewildering.

If they sack him & brought Rafa back I'd be a tad excited but very, very, very apprehensive. But I really don't think that is an option anyway.

It doesn't feel that the Reds are in a good place at the moment, I'm not sure 2 great goal-scorers would be the panacea, we may need a big fix but its getting the timing right.

It's a huge question of "if not Brendan then who?" at the moment.

Like many, I think, should the possibility be there to bring Klopp in, then it's an opportunity we can't pass up - but firing Rodgers without having his replacement already set to sign would be a disaster. The worst thing we could do right now would be to get caught up in a managerial merry-go-round, and end up with someone who doesn't fit the club's vision and philosophy.

That, however, brings up a whole new set of questions...

What exactly are Liverpool's philosophies? Are they actually defined for reference within the club anywhere? Who's deciding on them, prioritising them, reinforcing them, holding everyone to their standards?

For me, for too long, we've been a ship without a rudder - we employ people, both coaches and playing staff, who we think can do a good job, without hiring and signing people specifically to fulfill a particular role within a particular system which adheres to our particular demands and philosophies.

Everybody wants Liverpool to be an aggressive, attacking side, who play with flair, dynamism, and an absolute will to win.

Liverpool appointed Roy Hodgson.

Forget the whole Gillette and Hicks thing for a minute, and think about that. Liverpool employed Roy Hodgson. Roy Hodgson wouldn't recognize a pass-and-move style of football if his team of Koncheskys and Poulsens lost 9-0 to one. Gillette and Hicks ripped the core philosophies out of this club, and we got Hodgeball.

FSG thankfully rid us of Hodgeball, but never really restored those philosophies.

They tried a quick fix with Kenny, and the placebo effect worked for a while, then we got found out. Brendan came in, with a reputation of a good young manager, keen to possess the ball, and with a desire to improve on his impressive year at Swansea.

He was young, talented, and full of potential, but he never knew how to win. The first season, a(nother) transitional season, was good in bursts, but disappointing overall. The second season was an emotional rollercoaster - almost epic, but resulting in epic failure. The two best forwards in the league carried the club as close to a title as I can ever remember seeing.

Then, FSGs own philosophies started to come through. Suarez left, and money was reinvested - but instead of signing players specifically to fill roles in the club that would allow for success in accordance with "The Liverpool Way", players were brought in who *might* fit the bill, but would almost certainly retain resale value. The wage bill was kept as low as possible, probably with an eye on the older players in the group whose earnings now far outweighed their contribution, and the term "potential" became the buzz word.

Brendan Rodgers, the head coach of one of the most storied clubs in the world, had potential. He was not a winner, but he might be some day.
Players were brought in - Emre Can, Lazar Markovic, Alberto Moreno, Javi Manquillo, who all had potential, but were not capable of driving the team forwards immediately. The four Premier-League proven players brought in, only one of whom has actually won anything in England, all flopped unreservedly.

Liverpool currently have a potentially great coach, with a potentially great team, who are presided over by an absent ownership team and a CEO who should be in boardrooms lobbying for sponsorship deals instead of running a football club.


It all feels very much thrown-together, still, after almost 5 years of FSG ownership.


Who is in charge of the football side of things? A sponsorship salesman.
Who's the first-team coach? A guy with lots of talent, lots of potential, but little experience and no trophies to his name at first-team level.
Who's the new captain going to be? Nobody knows, because nobody can see any character within the group.
Who's going to get the goals? I don't have an answer for that one.


A change of manager now, unless it's absolutely spot-on, could lead to even more years of transition. The club needs to redefine and re-emphasise its philosophies, and recruit people throughout the club who fit into those tenats.

Liverpool need a football man running the football club, and one who can help deliver the philosophies and structure the club needs. This is almost the most important appointment that needs to be made in the immediate future.

Should the manager be replaced, he needs to be replaced by a person who not only fits the club's desired tenats, but who knows how to win, too. There should be no more opportunity for a Liverpool manager to learn on the job.

Finally, every player bought should be bought to fill a particular role within one or two systems which comply with the way the club intends to play. Whether it's the manager picking the players out, or a director of football, it is completely vital that we are buying players who fit, and players who understand how to win.


Do Liverpool fire Rodgers now? Perhaps.
Would it be just? Honestly, probably.
Would it be the right thing to do? If the other things around the club aren't addressed at the same time, it more-than-likely actually won't really matter. This club is losing its identity, and it isn't just the manager's fault.

The absentee owners, the upper management, the transfer committee, the manager, the players and the coaching staff all need to take their fair share of the blame.

The positive side of this is that we've been left with a good, young squad. The potential could come good under the right guidance.

If FSG believe they've found someone better than Rodgers to bring it out of them, then they should bring that person in - but changing for the sake of changing would be pointless, especially if the other stuff isn't sorted out too.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 09:34:33 PM by Col »
I don't have to sell my soul... he's already in me.

Offline Hinesy

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2015, 10:28:30 PM »
Brilliant post.
Yep.

Offline No666

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2015, 10:42:27 PM »
Quote
Then, FSGs own philosophies started to come through. Suarez left, and money was reinvested - but instead of signing players specifically to fill roles in the club that would allow for success in accordance with "The Liverpool Way", players were brought in who *might* fit the bill, but would almost certainly retain resale value. The wage bill was kept as low as possible, probably with an eye on the older players in the group whose earnings now far outweighed their contribution, and the term "potential" became the buzz word.
As I've posted elsewhere I don't think FSG's own philosophies did come through - at least not unadulterated. The problem - from day one - was that they thought they knew what they needed to do to fix Liverpool but they lacked confidence. They have flip-flopped wildly. Comolli. Rodgers says no DoF. Move to Transfer Committee. Rodgers does well for one season with one of the best strikers in the world in the team backed by one of the best midfielders in the world having a late swan song and they indulge him by spending a huge percentage of our transfer budget on the two "premier proven" players he wants.
For Christ's Sake - you are people who are impressed by dossiers - have faith in your own bloody blueprint and stick to it! If the manager's ego has taken a boost from a freak finish and a tooth job, put him back in his box and remind him how f*cking lucky he is to be managing this great historic ('destination') club.
& surely it is the MD's job to point out the fault lines - the inevitable consequences of watering down a strategy?
FSG appointed an inexperienced but talented manager who then wanted players with some experience of the Premier League; what they probably should have done was the complete opposite. Particularly as their chosen MD lacks experience, gravitas, wisdom and knowledge of the game.
FSG promised us smart management. They have given us flip-flopping naiveté and clumsiness.
Today's result was unacceptable and by my own analysis may only have been partly Rodgers's fault. But - if Klopp is willing to come - today should have made a change inevitable.


Offline Harinder

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2015, 10:48:45 PM »
It's a war

A war for talent at every level. On the field, off the field are we a club with the right talents in the right places or are we just a ship with people in positions but none of them competent?

I'm at a loss. For once I cannot fathom a way forward that is logical or sensible which doesn't carry a risk. Rip it up and start again is risky as we don't know what is working behind the scenes to repair those being seen week in week out on the field

There are no easy answers. If by some miracle Brendan stays, what does he hold on to that will translate to positive showing on the pitch? He has not been able to show the mercurial sense of leadership and control we desire. The inspirations of glories past haven't come to the forefront either so my key question to answer become what is there to lose by losing Brendan? What is there to retain sticking with this manager?

If the risk is that we don't have someone lined up then we've had that risk before. The answer provided then, as per what's already been stated, was Brendan. 3 seasons on and we are shadow of what we saw from Jan 2013 onwards. Clearly there is no easy fix to the apparent weaknesses of the side and there is no easy fix to the manager situation either. Anyone coming in has to be ready to bring an ethos of winning and instilling that mentality across the board.

It's been a horrible feeling driving home from Stoke today. I bloody hate Stoke. I saw our captain for the last time. I hope I've seen the lack of fight in the team for the last time too
Just clicked on the main board and my virus scanner came back with this

"When we visited this site, we found it exhibited one or more risky behaviors."


:lmao

Strip his knighthood https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47770

Offline John C

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2015, 11:17:43 PM »
Brendan Rodgers, the head coach of one of the most storied clubs in the world, had potential. He was not a winner, but he might be some day.
Players were brought in - Emre Can, Lazar Markovic, Alberto Moreno, Javi Manquillo, who all had potential, but were not capable of driving the team forwards immediately. The four Premier-League proven players brought in, only one of whom has actually won anything in England, all flopped unreservedly.

Great post mate and the bit in bold is the killer line for me as an old arse that witnessed continuity succeed which even included a young Kenny.

My opinion from when I joined RAWK in 2006 has changed, I use to think we deserved a place at the top of the table, now I believe we have to earn it. Mismanagement, miss-spent funds, distractions and deviations have turned us in to a swamp of misfits.

Offline Hinesy

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2015, 11:24:05 PM »
Thank fuck for this thread on a day like today
Yep.

Offline Col

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2015, 01:34:26 AM »
As I've posted elsewhere I don't think FSG's own philosophies did come through - at least not unadulterated. The problem - from day one - was that they thought they knew what they needed to do to fix Liverpool but they lacked confidence.


I think their philosophies are largely based around being smarter than everyone else, finding a statistical niche that hasn't been exploited elsewhere, and trusting the manager to turn potential into bona fide talent so the financials look good.

There are fundamental flaws with that, though:

Firstly, that football is a far more fluid game than baseball, which is where their stats-based analysis approach to sporting improvement is largely based;

Second, that they don't have a football person on the ground running the show, and they don't have anyone at all with a background in creating a successful footbaling environment who's willing to tell them what needs to be done (and if they did, would they listen to him?);

Third, the whole "buy small, improve, sell big" approach works well when you're in a league where your "small" may well be too "big" for another team to challenge for a player's signature (take Portugal as an example), but when you're up against clubs like Chelsea - 26 players out on loan this year, was it? Profits on Schurrle, Luiz, Lukaku, De Bruyne etc - and City, who can essentially stockpile young talent without actually using them (Johnson, Rodwell etc), then you either have to overpay for your players, or you don't find getting the right calibre of player as easily as you'd like.

Fourth, there need to be exceptions to the rules. Goalscorers cost more money, and demand higher wages. That's a quite simple opportunity cost - to have more effective strikers, you lose out elsewhere because you need to focus more money in this area. Gambling on strikers - as we have done, massively, this season - can backfire hugely. Our #1 is extremely injury prone, our #2 is dear between the ears, our #3 is as mobile as a portaloo (they do move, in theory), and our #4 is less threatening than a last-minute Dejan Lovren 40-yarder. We spent more money on a mid-table central defender this year - after losing Luis Suarez - than we did on replacing Luis Suarez.

Fifth, and this is the one that hits home hardest, is the fact that the man in charge of pulling everything together has no record of being able to change a group of players into a group of players that play good football, and then on to be a group of players that can cross the line. Furthermore, Rodgers has shown little sign of being able to win big games, or learn from lessons during those games he's lost.

The gap between FSG to Rodgers is too big, and needs to be filled with at least one top-level football person. The gap between Rodgers and a successful coach is also too big, and doesn't seem to be closing anytime soon. It stands to reason, then, that the gap between our team and the best teams in the league, is also fairly noticeable. There are holes that need to be filled, and FSG need to be humble enough to accept they need help from proper football people at the top end of the structure. From there, there needs to be a top-down approach to club management, leaving Rodgers to strictly deal with the coaching side of things - which is the bit he's exceptional at.
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Offline No666

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2015, 07:06:56 AM »
Col, my take - FSG have have shown a willingness to acknowledge the gap in their knowledge and as we know have consulted widely, perhaps too widely. (Kenny Dalglish is just one of those consultees and continues to be: they brought him back to the board not just as a sop to the fans.) So they are willing to listen. But then - fatally - they fail to choose decisively among the differing opinions. They are at sea.
Ian Ayre bears considerable responsibility for a number of failures during his tenure. With an opinionated, vocal, football-savvy MD, I doubt quite so many mistakes would have been made.

Offline Jake

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2015, 07:46:24 AM »
The worst thing for me is, I don't know what I want.

I didn't want Rafa sacked when he finished 7th, I didn't want Kenny sacked when he finished 6th, but I feel ambivalent about Brendan.

Is it because the other two were LFC legends?

Is it because we didn't get humiliated?

Is it because I believe Klopp is a better manager?

I don't know. I still stand by my belief that the footballers win the games, not the manager. Brendan didn't tell Can to head the ball back, Brendan didn't tell Sakho to lose the ball or for Lucas to miscontrol it. Brendan didn't tell Mignolet to parry the shot etc.

BUT

Looking at the squad, and the money we've spent, I can only name attacking midfield as a position we're better in than under Rafa (and I'm aware some on the right hand side were Rafa signings

Worse Keeper, Reina > Mignolet
Worse CBs, Agger, Carra and Sami > Skrtel, Lovern and Sakho
Worse fullbacks, Arbeloa, Riise, Finnan > Glen, Moreno, Enrique
Worse midfield, Peak Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, peak Lucas > old Gerrard, Henderson, Allen, injured Lucas
Attacking mid and wingers? Give me Garcia over greedy c*nt Sterling any day. Hard working Dirk over a few too. But we have Coutinho now, who is better.
Strikers? Torres was the best in the world, now we have Lambert, Borini and Balotelli (injured Sturridge too). The first 3 are embarrassing to have as Liverpool players.

So yeah, we're worse in every department, with a worse manager. Having spent £200m+.

I just feel numb.

Offline Maggie May

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2015, 02:55:34 PM »
PLEASE don't move this over.  I couldn't bear for it to be ruined.
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Offline ashleyrose-66

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2015, 11:51:35 AM »
The worry for me this season has been Rodgers insistence of playing players out of position.  Time and time again!

We sold Suarez in the summer, and moved a few others on too, which was supposed to allow us to bring numbers in to address the problem of having an unbalanced side.

The demands of European football meant that we needed a bigger squad to cope with the extra games and demands that playing weekend-midweek-weekend would bring.
 
I accept and appreciate that.   

What has troubled me this season is that despite bringing in the new players, despite having the opportunity to ensure we have sufficient cover in all areas of the pitch, we have continuously found ourselves with square pegs in round holes.

Injuries are a mitigating factor, granted, but I thought our work last summer was so that we were able to manage if/when injuries hit. 
Despite our big summer last year, we have found ourselves playing players out of position more than we did the season before when we had a supposedly smaller squad!

Sometimes, I simply cannot work out who is supposed to be playing where!  We ended the game against Hull recently with a defence consisting of Markovic, Skrtel, Can and Johnson (at LB).   Yes, we were chasing it by then, but even so, we started that game with Can in defence and Johnson at LB.   Why is half of our defence playing out of position?

This weekend against Stoke, we started with SEVEN midfielders.  One of which started at RB.  Obviously, Sturridge is injured, but Balotelli is once again out with a mystery illness, and Lambert is not selected. Sterling left out (which I accept and agree with, but let's be honest, he is not a striker anyway) and Borini no where near the squad.  So we play without a striker.  We play with 6 midfielders/attacking midfielders, and I genuinely don't know what our system or shape is meant to be.   It baffles me.

Why are we finding ourselves in the position that we are playing so many players out of position, despite supposedly overhauling the squad last summer and addressing the gaps that needed filling to ensure we are able to select a balanced side?

The worry for me has been that he has also "dropped" a large number of the players that we signed in the summer...

Moreno
Lambert
Balotelli
Lovren
Markovic

Have all been left out on a number of times by Rodgers.  Emre Can was left out earlier on in the season and shoe-horned in later on.  Lallana is possibly the only player that has played regularly, when fit.

I know other clubs have signed players this summer and left them out - I am sure people will be looking at Falcao at United or Di Maria for example who were big money signings and dropped by Van Gaal.  The difference is that Van Gaal is not leaving them out and playing players out of position to fill that gap, as we seem to do.

Have Chelsea operated most of the season without a striker?  Have Arsenal had a midfielder playing at centre-back for most of the season?
Even Spurs haven't found themselves continuously having to shuffle things around!

I do feel that there are some decent players there.   But I also worry that Rodgers just doesn't know how to use them.


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Offline JerseyKloppite

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2015, 10:44:45 PM »
It's been an incredibly difficult season and the biggest concern is whether or not we're going in the right direction, and if not what the most appropriate change to make is. I was thinking earlier, probably overthinking, that one of our biggest concerns this summer is that we have on paper at least a lot of '7s'.

I shall explain. Let's say, artificial construct though it is, that you can give each player out of 10 a rating for his ability/form/potential etc. If you're Liverpool, and you're chasing Champions League football, then you need your team (at least the first XI) to have mostly 8s or above - failing that a couple of 10s to balance out any weaknesses.

In our days under Rafa we had a lot of 8s, 9s and 10s. Looking at 2008/2009, I'd say our first team was usually from Reina (8.), Hyypia (8.), Carra (8.), Agger (7.5), Arbeloa (7.5), Aurelio (7.5), Gerrard (9.5), Alonso (9), Mascherano (9), Lucas (8.), Torres (9.5), Riera (7), Kuyt (8.).

Last season we had Suarez (10) and Sturridge (9.5) who allowed for a couple of weaker players (Cissokho for example).

This probably just sounds like I'm saying 'our team was better under Rafa'. Which it was. But my point is actually - if you have 6s, or below, you replace them instantly, and pay whatever you need to for the absolute best you can get in that position. If the player has limited resale value, you invariably just have to 'suck it up', get what you can and spend funds or a new player. You can justify significant net spend because the upgrade is considerable. This season we need a new right back. Johnson is leaving, Manquillo hasn't hit the ground to a high enough standard and Flanno is recovering from injury. Wisdom is a back up option. We therefore can justify spending a good wedge on a new right back. Ditto a Gerrard replacement.

7s are awkward. You may not get much money, because you're actively trying to sell. And you will have to pay a high fee for a replacement, who will be better, but not MUCH better, so your net spend will still likely be high despite the upgrade not being as impressive. This is harder to justify and saps at transfer funds.

Sometimes you get a wonderful offer for a 7 - take Borini last year, when Sunderland bid £10m. But 7s also think that they can make it because they are decent players and so are also disinclined to leave. As Borini did.

Liverpool's squad has a lot of 7s, in my opinion. And that is one of the biggest problems - our squad is not bad, in fact I think we are under-performing. But to improve it considerably will cost a lot. 7s in our first team, I'd say, include Simon Mignolet, Martin Skrtel, Joe Allen, Adam Lallana, Lucas (on current form, though I think he has the potential to be better), Lambert, Moreno and Balotelli (see Lucas). Some of these players don't need replacing of course, but they consist of a good chunk of our first team. Either we need to get more out of them, bring in better players to keep them more as 'squad' options, or, in some cases, replace them. The first is hard and unpredictable, the second is very expensive and the third is challenging, unpredictable and potentially expensive!

The future is certainly not bleak. I think we have a squad with a talented core and huge potential. Sakho, Moreno, Flanno, Can, Henderson, Coutinho and Sturridge give us a good spine, and others like Markovic and Moreno could well kick on to reach a good enough level. But this summer is absolutely crucial in providing players to fill the right gaps. And Sterling's future will be a very unwelcome distraction.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 10:47:16 PM by JerseyKopite »

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: End of season proper debate :FOR IN HERE ONLY (for now anyway)
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2015, 11:10:49 AM »
Even the pitch was shit this year!

A serious point actually. It was designed for the way West Ham play, not us. The groundsman needs sacking.

Does Brendan? After the Stoke game it's suddenly conceivable. Lucky for him he doesn't have a match next Saturday, or the Saturday after etc, and everyone can calm down and analyse things.

I can fully understand the attraction that most posters feel for Klopp. He's a terrific coach and a magnificent personality. But we ought to remember that Klopp has had a disastrous season too. That's no reason for not going for him of course, but it is a reason for giving Rodgers some latitude. Personally I can't easily forget how wonderful we were last season. That's the best team we've had since 1988. "Suarez!", many will say. Well, sure, he was out of this world. But it wasn't just him. Rodgers set up the team beautifully - far better in my opinion that Rafa ever did - and we played the kind of football I've long dreamed of. It would be unfair to get rid of Rodgers now, even after such an anti-climactic season.

That said, next season is make or break for him. Too many of his signings last summer have been second grade. Can has shown signs of excellence, as did Lallana, but am I alone in thinking that Rodgers can't spot a good defender? I don't think so.

The biggest disappointment was Markovic. I was excited by him when he first arrived yet almost immediately it was obvious he utterly lacked self-belief. Moreno got a harsh wake-up call too. The less said about Lovren the better. When you recall that our defence was already a bit ropey from last season - Skrtel and Toure! Help! - and the goalie is a bit soft, then you've got major problems.

I'm also anxious about Henderson (yeah, I know, I always am). But captain? That's got to be over now. A captain should always be worthy to start. But Henderson is still trying to come to grips with some of the basics in the game. Perhaps he never will. Ever the eager runner. A man who can play counter-attacking football extremely well. But not a player to use against packed defences or teams that absorb pressure. Too slow with the ball still. And not a leader either.

What can Rodgers do to turn things round? Well some things may fall into his lap. A fit Sturridge and a fit Lallana (and a fit Flanagan too) would put him one up from last season. A new goalie who is braver in the air and better with his feet would help massively. Origi looks promising, regardless of the stupid French poll that has him down as a dud. I had grand hopes that we'd land Pjanic this summer, but the European fiasco has surely put an end to that. But that's the sort of player we need to knit things together in the middle. Is Alonso over the hill? Can he be tempted? One last fling with the club he really loves? If not let's go for Will Hughes. He won't be able to fix things instantly, though he'd be an improvement on Henderson. But in two or three years time we'd be looking at the best English midfielder of his generation.

What else can we hang on to? The middle third of the season perhaps when, along with Arsenal, we were the best team in the Premier League. That run lasted a long time. It also included the best two performances of the season (in the League Cup v Chelsea). It's all been obliterated now by the catastrophic last couple of months which included a limp display at home v Man Utd, the abject failure at Wembley v Villa and the Raheem Sterling sideshow.

 
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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2015, 01:02:07 PM »
PLEASE don't move this over.  I couldn't bear for it to be ruined.

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Offline Paul JH

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2015, 01:56:21 PM »
I said it before now, but there is an almost out of place arrogance from the club at times. From top to bottom, not just in the way we act, but in the manner we go about things regarding team restructuring.

Starting with Brendan talking about how big a club we are, a giant on the world stage, to the way we spend the money we get, there seems to be something misplaced about us, we still have a sense of entitlement, and from a club that has gone 25 years with no title, and one league cup in 9 years, 1 season in the CL in 5 seasons, it just comes across as being mired by our much vaunted history and past. Unable to move on.

Where I'm going with this is the way we spent some of the money we got from Suarez sale. The likes of Chelsea can afford to spend £20m on young players with potential, because they can back that up with £30+ million pound star players. If the young £20m player doesn't work out, it doesn't matter, they have a £35m star player taking the pressure off. Us? Our 'star' players are the £20m young lads, or it seems we as a club seem to think we can do that. We have rapidly run out of star players, so players like Markovic are judged, dissected and destroyed because they aren't given the time to adapt, to bed in, because our arrogant philosophy is that we can do it with potential. We can win trophies with 'potential'.

Well, it's been done before, but by teams that had already been there and done it. We haven't.

We spent the money raised from Suarez, finishing 2nd and CL qualification in the most cack handed, crass manner, to the point where you had arrogant statements from Rodgers about other clubs lack of ambition and mistakes which we have since replicated almost exactly. It's hard to even get frustrated about it, it's just exasperating. And finishing behind one of them a few points above the other is embarrassing to say the least after the stuff we blustered about while we were taking players off them.

People will say it's all hindsight, that Lambert, Lallana and Lovren had played well the season before, but you could see we were paying over the odds for these players again, lots of people on RAWk even noticed and said so, and yet we did it again. We never learn from mistakes, and I think it's this arrogance of who we are which was increased again at the end of the season as we had come so close. Suddenly, the manager and fans were thinking 'we're back' and we can just buy players and mould them into this new young managers philosophy and be world beaters.

For a team that hasn't won the title in 25 years, we go into every season with this huge weight of expectation. People will argue this and say we don't, but we do. Yet we talk like a huge club (which we are) but act like a mid-table one, run by 'committee' and trading on history.

I looked at Facebook the day after the 6-1, and there was a post from the club about '10 years ago, we won the CL in Istanbul'. And it hit me then. While I don't advocate forgetting your history and identity, it makes us special, but I think we are hamstrung by it more now than ever. Last season coming so close has only made it worse.

Maybe the time has come to be proud of our history, but put it to one side and concentrate on now. We sing proudly that Chelsea have 'no history' ... maybe not, but they are making their's now. We seem to use ours as a crutch when things don't go well or other clubs win trophy after trophy. We used to be proud of the fact we won more titles and CL than anyone else. The titles record has gone, how long until the CL one goes too?

Football has changed. We need to as well. Thinking we can spend the money we spent on 'potential' like we do is the act of a club either so arrogant to think they have a genius in charge (who has never won anything) who can mould these lads into title winners, or we are a club that will keep up this cut the wage bill mentality and stagnate so badly, that we fall so far behind the clubs winning things, no-one of any note will want to come here anymore.

I'm genuinely worried as to where we are headed, in terms of keeping up with the modern game and as a team. Because like it or not, the more we don't win things, the more we keep harping on about what happened 10-20 years ago, the more we'll fall behind.

And it's sad when you see 100,000 fans in Melbourne singing YNWA that they don't have people at the club exploiting that level of fandom and worldwide support to make this club as big as it can be again.  :-\
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Offline Not that Gareth

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2015, 02:05:00 PM »
I don’t think it is debatable that this season was a huge let down for everyone after the highs of the season before. Rodgers and the team were always facing an uphill battle to come close to matching the highs of the previous season and the season has ended under a cloud of a 3-1 defeat to Palace and a 6-1 defeat to Stoke. More galling for many is the manner of the defeats towards the end of this season which showed no ambition or fight, infact the showings displayed little of anything. Indeed you may argue that Rodgers looked broken and the team fractured by the final whistle of the Stoke game.

To add insult to this is that one of the clubs legends has ended his career in a way that many may find unforgivable and ask: "So after all his service that's the send off his gets?" Spit at the feet Rodgers and walk away. Leaving him on the bench for the crunch game against Man Utd when we needed our leaders on the pitch was a mistake. Instead Gerrard was kept pent up until half time and we all saw the outcome, we can't blame Gerrard's rashness on Rodgers per se but one wonders had he started the game would he have been so rash? Probably not.

However, all this looks at Rodgers in the microcosm of the past few months when the assessment has to be one of over 3 years. We need to look at the football we played last season, we need to look at the football we played in the middle of this season, we need to look at poor football we played at the beginning and end of this season and we need to look at the system that he is managing within, which includes transfers.

I cannot frame these arguments better than Sean Rogers and Roy Henderson have in the Guardian. Sean argues that Rodgers deserves another season and takes a systematic view to analyse whether Rodger's should keep his job and in his estimation we could have jesus in charge and it wouldn't make a damn difference until some serious internal flaws are fixed. RoyHendo looks at things more directly and frames his reasoning around a pure footballing perspective. For him Rodgers has laid great foundations but has lost the ability to deliver his vision and it is time for a change. Both arguments have merit and if you have not read the articles you should: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/may/26/brendan-rodgers-liverpool-manager-debate-sack-back

For me Rodger's deserves another season. The start to this season was always going to be incredibly hard, only the most optimistic of fans thought we could instantly hit the ground running after the heart break of the previous season and after the Suarez debacle, not to mention bedding in so many new players, young ones at that. At Christmas things looked grim but then we went on a marvellous run that pulled us right back into the champion's league contention. Rodgers has to take some credit for this, in fact a lot of credit. Rodgers also deserves a lot of credit for last season. Yes Suarez was amazing and a major factor but what enabled him to play like that, how did the system come about that enabled not just him but all the players to shine? Rodgers deserves credit for this.

The buck also stops with Rodgers for the end of this season. His management of both Gerrard and Sterling has been poor, in fact there are big questions marks over his man management skills and his ability to manage a big squad, not to mention handle the pressure of a big club. What I am hoping is that he has learnt from both this season and his previous two season and can move forward and correct these flaws. He definitely needs a defensive coach, it is an absolute must, and he has to do this for me. It would be a requirement of him keeping his job if I was FSG. But if these flaws were corrected then the brand of football I have seen us play under Rodgers could be allowed to flourish and become consistent. For me this is worth a chance but it will require Rodgers to recognise his flaws and correct them. If Stoke was not the watershed moment for him to recognise this then there never will be one for him. Infact what happened at Stoke could well the pill the entire club needed to move on from last season.

Transfer's are another big issue, I really have idea how the process works within this committee but it does seem to be highly convoluted. The Loic Remy situation still baffles me and was definitely not a call made by Rodgers, instead he was left with Mario as the only viable, albeit highly risky, alternative. Something is not quite right there and I do not think that a manager such as Klopp or any other top manager would work with it. That said I only really see two big failures from last seasons buys, Lovren and  Balotelli. Lambert was only ever brought in as an older head who could be thrown on for the last few minutes.

Can, Moreno and Markovic are all young players who seem like they could well kick on underneath Rodgers. Lallana might not be quite the superstar we hoped but can still be play a solid squad role.  Yes there have been failures over the three years but not really anymore than at most big clubs, particularly clubs under-going renovation. For me that renovation stops now and next season is the one the Rodgers has to really perform, if he doesn’t then he goes. He needs to do with Can, Moreno, Origi, Ibe, Markovic to name a few what he done with Sterling, Sturridge and Coutinho and I think he can. He does that and things do not look so bad from where I stand.

Whatever FSG decide they are rolling the dice, for me the dice rolls to Rodgers.

Edit: Oh yeah and I concede he may need a PR course or two  :P


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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2015, 02:08:30 PM »
Some good analysis but for me Col's nailed it.  Agree word for word.  Nothing else to add so I won't ruin it for Mags!

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2015, 02:08:35 PM »
For me, the biggest take away of the season is when we went to the back 3. For the first time in three years we actually looked solid at the back. Two games against Manu and Swansea and the back 3 seem to have been 'found out' and later ditched. Are we going to go 3 at the back again next season?


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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2015, 02:14:34 PM »
This season, like the proverbial Parson's egg, was good in parts.

And yet here I sit, feeling even more numb that this time last year, if that were even possible. If we threw the towel in after the Utd defeat, then those that had to watch the utter capitulation at the Britannia have my utmost sympathy. A team, so devoid of any cohesion, mental strength, or desire to win it was like watching one of those games of yesteryear on MOTD. You know the ones, Luton vs Middlesborough, whilst waiting for the main event, usually Liverpool playing for something meaningful we had to watch two teams fighting it out for 10th place. You'd sneak out and make a brew, or have a smoke. All the while keeping an ear open for our game to start.

We've become one of those teams in 9 months.

It's easy to defer to the article Brentie wrote, and pick out the best bits. But I'll try to leave his post be.

Last August, the majority of us sat back, and thought we'd done the right thing. A good mixture of youthful potential, and a few older players that knew their way around the premiership. Back then I 'hoped' for a top4 spot, qualifying from the CL group stage, and a good run in one of the domestic cup competitions. I was convinced we'd have enough about us to hit the three modest targets I'd set us.

It wasn't to be.

Daniel fell to the injury a lot of us predicted, and although we had plenty of options, the players available were either lacking in form, not fancied by Brendan, or a mixture of both. Our season as it turns out, was hobbled by an injury to one player. And after spending what we did it's borderline negligent from a club the size of ours. Who's to blame ? Well, after the contamination of every thread since the new year by posters thinking they know, journalists with varying degrees of knowledge putting their twopenneth in, I don't think we're any nearer to actually clearing it up.
General consensus seems to be that Brendan and the TC identify players, Brendan sits back and lets the TC crunch numbers etc, and then Brendan gets to give the final nod, or not. Whether that's the case or not in reality, again, who knows ?

Moving on to the players, it's actually funny, because I'm sure we bought seasoned professionals that would just drop in with little acclimatisation ? That's what happens when we buy 'Proven Premier League' players, and pay the exhorbitant fees isn't it ? The forcing of last seasons system with Gerrard in the deep role, but lacking any sort of genuine movement ahead of him left us watching a disjointed, struggling side languishing in mid table. We completely fluffed our lines in Europe. A group that many of us weren't concerned that we had Madrid, "It doesn't matter if we lose home and away to Madrid." was the cry, because we'd easily pick up enough points against the other pair. Beşiktaş added insult to injury and we surrendered meekly our position in the Europa League.

We did, however, find a bit of form on the home front as we managed to string together a 13 game unbeaten run. And whilst it was a good achievement insomuch as we managed to avoid the usual anomaly of a defeat from nowhere that usually shortens runs like this, we never really found any real form. Home draws to Leicester, Everton, Championship sides Bolton/Blackburn both kept us out at Anfield. Only once did I feel comfortable entering the last 10 minutes of each game. Swansea.

All good things come to an end though, and as we strolled out at Anfield ready to beat Utd and move into fourth, a position we all assumed we'd keep hold of in the run in, it all went horribly wrong.

We all know what happened, and subsequently we seemed to completely give up on top 4, our manager even alluded to us concentrating on the cup semi, against a team managed by a complete buffoon, a cartoon character that we all love to poke fun at, someone so tactically devoid of ideas that he's lampooned by opposition supporters all around the country. After said person ejected us from the FA cup without so much as a fight the season has petered out in a fashion many of us expected, but none of us really wanted to believe would happen.

We've had the Raheem circus to contend with, a manager who loves a soundbite, many of which have come back and taken a slice from his arse, a fan base that's gone from reluctant support, to one that's so divided it's like Rafa all over again.

Anyhow, after my long winded ramble, that probably only really made sense in my head :) I'll leave anyone that's interested my conclusions.

Do I wanted Brendan sacked ?
Nah, keep your Klopp, you Rafa, Ancelloti etc. I'm not really interested. I want Brendan to find 30 goals for next season, and I'm not really bothered if they come from Ings/Benteke, or some player I've never heard of. That's not my job. My job is to get behind the team, the manager, and the players.
He warrants another chance, even if it's only until Christmas, he deserves it.
Less than 9 months ago we were the most feared team in the UK, and I bet there were plenty of teams in Europe casting awkward glances at this team from Liverpool managed by a kid in relative terms himself hoping to avoid us.

Give him the goals, watch him work his magic.
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Offline Keita Success

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2015, 02:27:41 PM »
Should we sack him? Maybe. Will we? No.

And let's face it, it's kind of refreshing. We've been poor this season, there's no denying it. But the void left by Suarez cannot be underestimated. This season's been a write off, I have no qualms about saying that, we've played turgid stuff, no sense of direction, no purpose and no spirit. Rodgers' task now is to pick us up, there can be no Suarez excuses, he has to replace the fella or change our style of play. Recently, we've looked kind of in limbo, like we're still looking for Suarez making those runs into space or dribbles which create space and had nothing.

I think we should give Rodgers this coming season, but let it be known to him that it's his last chance. From the bottom up, this season has been rotten. From failed transfers, to Gerrard's contract, early European exists, to Sterling's paddy. It not what I like to see from a club that I've loved my whole life. Realistically, I'm not fussed about top-4, not really. I just want my Liverpool back, where football was the priority, not the behind the scenes politics. And if Rodgers is the man to bring it back, fair play to him.

That being said, if we're after Klopp, gedhim in kwik.  ;D
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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2015, 02:37:09 PM »
Some good analysis but for me Col's nailed it.  Agree word for word.  Nothing else to add so I won't ruin it for Mags!

Please feel free - I like your stuff.   ;D   Excellent stuff since it was transferred over.  Hinesy was right and I was wrong.  A plea in mitigation of my remark is that I lingered too long in the Stoke/Gerrard thread and was still reeling with horror, disbelief and dismay.
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Offline poopscoop

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2015, 02:46:43 PM »
I said it before now, but there is an almost out of place arrogance from the club at times. From top to bottom, not just in the way we act, but in the manner we go about things regarding team restructuring.

Starting with Brendan talking about how big a club we are, a giant on the world stage, to the way we spend the money we get, there seems to be something misplaced about us, we still have a sense of entitlement, and from a club that has gone 25 years with no title, and one league cup in 9 years, 1 season in the CL in 5 seasons, it just comes across as being mired by our much vaunted history and past. Unable to move on.

Where I'm going with this is the way we spent some of the money we got from Suarez sale. The likes of Chelsea can afford to spend £20m on young players with potential, because they can back that up with £30+ million pound star players. If the young £20m player doesn't work out, it doesn't matter, they have a £35m star player taking the pressure off. Us? Our 'star' players are the £20m young lads, or it seems we as a club seem to think we can do that. We have rapidly run out of star players, so players like Markovic are judged, dissected and destroyed because they aren't given the time to adapt, to bed in, because our arrogant philosophy is that we can do it with potential. We can win trophies with 'potential'.

Well, it's been done before, but by teams that had already been there and done it. We haven't.

We spent the money raised from Suarez, finishing 2nd and CL qualification in the most cack handed, crass manner, to the point where you had arrogant statements from Rodgers about other clubs lack of ambition and mistakes which we have since replicated almost exactly. It's hard to even get frustrated about it, it's just exasperating. And finishing behind one of them a few points above the other is embarrassing to say the least after the stuff we blustered about while we were taking players off them.

People will say it's all hindsight, that Lambert, Lallana and Lovren had played well the season before, but you could see we were paying over the odds for these players again, lots of people on RAWk even noticed and said so, and yet we did it again. We never learn from mistakes, and I think it's this arrogance of who we are which was increased again at the end of the season as we had come so close. Suddenly, the manager and fans were thinking 'we're back' and we can just buy players and mould them into this new young managers philosophy and be world beaters.

For a team that hasn't won the title in 25 years, we go into every season with this huge weight of expectation. People will argue this and say we don't, but we do. Yet we talk like a huge club (which we are) but act like a mid-table one, run by 'committee' and trading on history.

I looked at Facebook the day after the 6-1, and there was a post from the club about '10 years ago, we won the CL in Istanbul'. And it hit me then. While I don't advocate forgetting your history and identity, it makes us special, but I think we are hamstrung by it more now than ever. Last season coming so close has only made it worse.

Maybe the time has come to be proud of our history, but put it to one side and concentrate on now. We sing proudly that Chelsea have 'no history' ... maybe not, but they are making their's now. We seem to use ours as a crutch when things don't go well or other clubs win trophy after trophy. We used to be proud of the fact we won more titles and CL than anyone else. The titles record has gone, how long until the CL one goes too?

Football has changed. We need to as well. Thinking we can spend the money we spent on 'potential' like we do is the act of a club either so arrogant to think they have a genius in charge (who has never won anything) who can mould these lads into title winners, or we are a club that will keep up this cut the wage bill mentality and stagnate so badly, that we fall so far behind the clubs winning things, no-one of any note will want to come here anymore.

I'm genuinely worried as to where we are headed, in terms of keeping up with the modern game and as a team. Because like it or not, the more we don't win things, the more we keep harping on about what happened 10-20 years ago, the more we'll fall behind.

And it's sad when you see 100,000 fans in Melbourne singing YNWA that they don't have people at the club exploiting that level of fandom and worldwide support to make this club as big as it can be again.  :-\
Agree. Mocking Chelsea about lack of history really winds me up these days, they are busy making it - while we appear content to trade on it!
I am not and never have been a Rogers fan, I think his tactical changes are a series desperate gambles  - just look at Villa at Wembley. I don't have confidence in his ability to make the necessary changes to get us past stubborn, tactically disciplined teams - Chelsea in April last year, and three up at Palace for example. He is, however, deserving of more time in my opinion. 

Offline justsean

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2015, 02:50:00 PM »
Agree. Mocking Chelsea about lack of history really winds me up these days, they are busy making it - while we appear content to trade on it!
I am not and never have been a Rogers fan, I think his tactical changes are a series desperate gambles  - just look at Villa at Wembley. I don't have confidence in his ability to make the necessary changes to get us past stubborn, tactically disciplined teams - Chelsea in April last year, and three up at Palace for example. He is, however, deserving of more time in my opinion.

Come on now. Don't rewrite last season. We destroyed many tactically disciplined teams. Chelsea were the exception - a Mourinho bus. For the Palace game we were trying to win 9-0 and get the goal difference back on track. Not blaming Rodgers for that - one of my favourite moments of the season was us going 3-0 up and Suarez sprinting back to the half way line with the ball in his hand.

Col's post was sublime and I agree with large parts of it.

Offline LiverBirdKop

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2015, 02:53:31 PM »
He warrants another chance, even if it's only until Christmas, he deserves it.
Less than 9 months ago we were the most feared team in the UK, and I bet there were plenty of teams in Europe casting awkward glances at this team from Liverpool managed by a kid in relative terms himself hoping to avoid us.
Give him the goals, watch him work his magic.
Goals alone won't win you anything if you concede too many. For every 3-0, 4-1 win there will always be the 2-1, 3-2 losses if you can't defend. As for Europe, after the CL debacle I have my doubts teams wanted to avoid us.
Reminds me of why US people/pundits find "soccer" so "boring". Not enough goals/scoring. Maybe that's why FSG and Rodgers clicked so well....the promise of goals.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2015, 03:02:33 PM »
A much needed outlet. Cheers Hinesey.


 :)


Nobody - and I do mean nobody - will ever convince me that we were not merely the acquisition of a solitary decent fast pacy summer/winter signing [preferably two] away from a top four finish and making an acceptable fist of our Champions league return.

As much as we have been forced to witness our team's and our manager's capitulation to their current utterly demoralised decrepit and forlorn state ever since the team and Rodgers walked out at Anfield to face United a month or so ago, I am certain the entire debacle was so easily avoidable by the simple task of recruitment of the sort of fast, pacy mobile attacking outlets that have lit up the Premiership for other [lesser?] clubs throughout the season yet for whatever reason were considered outside our requirements.

Hence my own anger at the club's irresponsibility as set out in the marathon 'downturn'/unravelling thread of last autumn.

Amongst other things, I posted back then that it was utter madness that our whole attacking impetus was entirely dependant upon the valiant efforts of just two players, two young lads at that - Coutinho and Sterling  and that they could in no way, shape or form maintain that level of sole responsibility through to May.

As it was, a combination over the winter period of those two hitting their peak form and Rodgers stumbling upon the defensive solidity of the Can/Skrtel/Sahko back three with Lucas screening provided us with our winter form fiesta which in turn invoked within the club hierarchy the complacent arrogance that with Sturridge also on the way back to fitness we could dispense with any need for any additional pacy mobile attacking outlet

What utter fucking folly to pile upon the identical summer folly. The mirage of Sturridges 'return to fitness', an injury to Sahko, a Skrtel suspension and Coutinho and Sterling hitting the predicted wall saw us collapse like a pack of cards.

And the bitter irony of it all has seen recent games rubbing our noses in the dirt.

So we’ve seen the unpalatable evidence of precisely the sort of fast pacy mobile ‘getting beyond the opposition defence’ calibre of strikers we've so achingly cried out for all season [Bolassie/Puncheon/Diouff - and there's a ton more I've had to endure watching this season] any of whom we could have signed in the summer - or winter - and just one, possible two of them would have seen an entirely different season unfold.

Yes, as I say, there's no real doubt that Rodgers could have managed his squad better throughout the season or that himself and the team have fallen to pieces under the pressure this past month or so but the real culprits in this are the utter fucking idiots behind the scenes empowered by stupid football ignorant pig-headed American money men who between them provided Rodgers with such a shit hand to play with.
 
As to what happens now or what is best for the club, I’m buggered if I know.

It may be that Rodgers is indeed a busted flush as far as we are concerned. If I felt certain he was still the man who engineered last season’s incredible journey or that he could rekindle such high spots within the Anfield womb then I’d say let’s entrust the future to him. But the ridiculousness of his recent management - with the Emre Can right back deployment top of the pile of utter stupidity – simply has to cast huge doubts as to whether he’s lost the plot as far as we are concerned. Also the Anfield womb is more and more resembling his tomb as each reflection on the season passes.

My long term supporter instincts are always to stick by the manager. Like many others, I’ve only ever departed from that once - in the case of Hodgson. Right now, I’m on the fence. The recent mis-management by Rodgers has unnerved me. Just as it has unneverved so many other like minded Liverpudlian souls.  It’s also brought to the fore the other aspect of his tenure that I’ve felt uncomfortable with namely his reluctance to speak his mind about the incompetence behind the scenes.

And yet I feel also that he has procured enough brownie points with last season's incomparable surge towards greatness to warrant another go especially given how this season's awfulness is down to circumstances largely the fault of others.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 03:41:36 PM by Timbo's Goals »

Offline No666

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2015, 03:04:25 PM »
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What can Rodgers do to turn things round? Well some things may fall into his lap.
Isn't that the issue, Yorky? Last season fell into his lap. This season he lacks. The worry is that last season is the anomaly. He doesn't have enough experience, enough reputation, an incisive enough brain and - most worryingly - enough humility to overcome the problems and the pressures at LFC. They are not all of his making, and some are structural and to do with the owners imo, but some of the problems are his own.

Offline paul211b

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2015, 03:09:21 PM »
Just my two cents on this season and the next, probably not for the End of Season thread but most others are locked.

Is Brendan the right manager for the job?

As others have said if Klopp is willing to take the job then I say give it to him.   
He has a winning mentality and is liked by some top players.  Reus anyone?  I think that his knowledge would be important to bringing in a better quality of player, get a few of those German tacticians in the door. 

Rogers is a fairly unknown, unproven manager and  only really seems to have good knowledge of the mid table players.  Others may not agree but I think his signings speak for themselves.

Rogers this season I think has nearly lost the plot, some of his comments in interviews, the way he has dealt with the Sterling issue to the random tactics all just baffling. 
Gone are the days when everything is done behind closed doors.  Is this the agents, the club?  I suspect a little bit of both.
I was watching the stoke game and at 6 - 1 down he is applauding the players?    I do not understand this at all. 
Where are the bollockings?  The shouting?  The passion?

Hate to say it but under the ownership of FSG, we are now a selling club.  This is our future.   

They are here to make as much money as they can for the least outlay.
I don't think we will see a Sanchez, Costa, Benzema signing while they remain owners of this club.   They will want the next Sanchez, Costa, Benzema for a small fee and lower wages until the time that they can sell them on for a profit.

Something has to drastically change for us to make the top four in the next few years.  With the likes of Chelsea, City, Utd and Arsenal investing in the quality of player that we a) won't fund or b) have no chance of signing anyway.

The only way we will reach the top four, is if another club has a really shit season and we managed to find a couple of players for cheap that live up to their potential from the get go. 
Then if we do make top four, as we have seen last season, the players that made the difference will be sold for a profit.   The signings we then make to replace these winners, will be players with potential again.   
So if we do make top for in the next year or two, without actually investing in the players that can make an instant impact we will be lucky to repeat this year after year.

Gerrard leaving is going to hurt us, the best player we have still, at his age and we let him go for free, another top goal scorer leaving 2 seasons in a row.   
Sterling will also be leaving.   
Can't really blame any of them seeing the likes of players we have signed, the quality of player we have let go, and generally the strategy this club is now taking.

Rogers obviously does not have a good eye for the type of signing that we need, that FSG demand, does Klopp?

Offline Mamadou

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2015, 03:10:39 PM »
great posts... cheers lads
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Offline georgiejones

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2015, 03:22:19 PM »
I'm very concerned,the amount of players that have turned their noses up at us (mikhterain,Costa,Sanchez,Plus the other 2 lads that went to Chelsea)and these have been when we've had Gerrard,Suarez,and an inform Sturridge.If Rodgers reputation isn't enough to attract players with those players at the club how will he fare without them,and how does it look that the young light wants to leave too? Rafa never had a problem attracting players.

He over achieved last season but how much was circumstance? I never doubted that we had the right man leading us but how can our performances be so based on runs,we're either on a bad run or a really hood run.
Why have we got £40 odd million pounds worth of strikers that are deemed not good enough to start,Balotelli,Lambert,Borini and Aspas that must go down as a huge fuck up.
I don't even feel I can blame age,inexperience either,Swansea are closer to us than we are to united  and Gary monk is younger ,less experienced and money spent isn't even comparable.I find myself torn when a manager like Klopp becomes available my head says if he wants to come you've got to get him but I heart is loyal and says keep for another year.
Just gutted basically.

Offline Guz-kop

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2015, 03:25:54 PM »
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It may be that Rodgers is indeed a busted flush as far as we are concerned. If I felt he was still the man who engineered last season’s incredible journey or that he could rekindle such high spots within the Anfield womb then I’d say let’s entrust the future to him. But the ridiculousness of his recent management - with the Emre Can right back deployment top of the pile of utter stupidity – simply has to cast huge doubts as to whether he’s lost the plot as far as we are concerned. Also the Anfield womb is more and more resembling his tomb as each reflection on the season passes.

It is either is or it isn't.

You can't judge last season based on this season. You can't turn round and say you're not sure if Rodgers had anything to do with the 2nd place finish because he's played Can at right back. They're independent seasons. He gets huge amount of praise for last season and gets a lot of stick for this one. I don't see how it can be any other way. It's not fair otherwise. We made a total mess of defending the CL in 2005/6 - after Benfica knocked us out did you think "shit maybe Rafa just got lucky"?

I really cannot stand people not giving Rodgers credit for last season. "It was all Suarez" or "Fell into his lap" nonsense. Behave. He nearly achieved more than Souness, Evans, Houllier, Rafa and Kenny put together. It was amazing. We were the best team in the country for 6 months. It doesn't happen by chance and that needs to be acknowledged. Anything else is unfair on the man.

As far as replacing the manager goes - I don't know really. In my books he has credit in the bank from last season. But that's just me. Whether he goes or stays though I don't want us to rush into this. I don't understand why people are hysterical calling for things to be done in the next 24 hours. There are maybe 3 managers who we should be looking at if Rodgers goes - Klopp, Ancelotti and Simeone. The last is probably not available. The first two might not be either. Sacking him and being left in total limbo in my eyes is NOT a better position than sitting down with Rodgers and trying to turn things round. I expect the club is frantically on the blower to potential managers around the world at the moment and are buying themselves some time with this "review" business. I think it's probably the right approach.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 03:28:05 PM by Guz-kop »
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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2015, 03:32:48 PM »
Square pegs, round tables.


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Offline redan

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2015, 03:38:22 PM »
Rodgers is part of the problem but there's so much more wrong with Liverpool,

If it's been said once it's been said literally a million times, our recruitment policy is absolutely shocking. One in two player success rate is acceptable for me (although considering it's someone's job perhaps even that is being kind) however ours in the past 5 years in close to one in ten!! Joe Bloggs from Bootle can do better than that. One season is understandable but we've had 5 years of the shit and nothing has changed,

When FSG came into 'power' they almost immediately appointed Comolli as Director of Football Strategy. Not everyone agreed with this approach however it was clear that this was how FSG wanted to work. He left after 18 unsuccessful months (although he did bring in currently one of the two best Strikers in the world and probably our next Captain) and he hasn't been directly replaced. A committee has been put in place instead. Who is on this committee? How does the committee work? If people know then please tell me because I bloody don't! If there's 5 on the committee and 3 want a player but 2 don't, what happens? Does the transfer go through anyway?

Surely one man is responsible for how a team plays; the manager. So what if the manager disagrees with a potential signing because it will not fit his style of play but the others members do?

Since the committee has been put in place we've mainly made two types of signings. a) Overpriced established players from lower English clubs (Lallana, Lovren, Allen) b) overpriced potential signings from abroad (Markovic, Alberto, Ilori, Moreno). This policy has not been cheap. I'd argue their are only two exceptions to this rule. Sakho an established CB from PSG and Sturridge and established CF from Chelsea. These two signings twinned with Coutinho (who fits into the 'B' category) are arguably the only success stories in what has been a shambolic 4 years of recruitment (Can has shown potential but not enough to put him as a success yet). What does that tell us?

Liverpool FC comes with arguably the biggest amount of scrutiny and pressure in the Premier League. Clubs City and Chelsea have money to burn, they can sign a £15m player but they'll also sign a £35m player so the pressure on the £15m player is immediately off. When we spend that money we need an instant return, we cannot wait 2 years for any potential to come to fruition. See Kevin De Bruyne. A player brought with a big reputation for a decent fee at a young age. He stuggled but Chelsea didn't need him, he was one for the future. People could see his potential but Chelsea didn't care, they didn't need potential, they needed the finished article. He gets sent on Loan, builds his reputation further, comes back and Chelsea get a great offer and he leaves. He wasn't a Chelsea success on the pitch but off it he was a revelation! A £10m profit for doing sod all. It didn't effect them on the pitch at all. De Bruyne is doing very well for himself now but do Chelsea give a shit? Doubt it,

Whereas we sign Markovic, Moreno etc and expect them to be our first choice players in their positions because we don't have that luxury that Chelsea have. When they initially struggle, the fans, media get on their back. 20 year olds in a new country and a new league and they're being labelled 'flops'. We cannot send them on loan for progression because we've spent so much money on them and do not have any replacements. Therefore we need to go out again and buy a replacement before sending them on loan and we're back to square one again (see, Coates, Ilori, Aspas, Alberto, will any of these ever player for LFC again/once). These were not £500k signings, between them they cost £27m, that might be ok for City to write off but not us.

Horrible stuff.

Now to Rodgers. It's not gotten so bad that it's now got me thinking, was last season just the result of the stars aligning and the form of the 2nd best player in the world? It's looked completely helpless at times,

How do we want to play? Tiki-taka, counter attack, high pressing? 4-3-3, 3-4-3, 4-4-2 diamond? We've played the lot. We play one way until one bad result and then change it. It's like we have no long term strategy or idea of how we want to play. That is worrying for recruitment. Carroll was binned off being he didn't fit our style. Fair enough I like that we have a clear identity and players who don't fit should be here. Or do we? Since then our style of play has been so erratic (except that wonderful 4 months from Jan-May last season) who knows what players fit our system. 

Also his team selections have at times been baffling. Balotelli/Lambert and even Borini have started games and then not seen again for weeks. We had a situation a few weeks ago where we had no striker starting but 3 on the bench?? Markovic starting games and being hurled off unceremoniously at HT more times than I can count, Enrique starting in the CL etc etc etc. Substitutions have been even worse. 15 mins to go in the FA Semi-Final and despite playing utter shite, we're only a goal behind. He has Ricky Lambert on the bench and does nothing. It's not worked all game and he does nothing.

Whilst I do not expect him to come out post game and slag our players off, a bit of honest wouldn't go amiss once in a while. All I've gathered is we're full of character, great integrity and shite at football (he choose to omit the last part). He makes me doubt the man that he hasn't got a clue what to do to fix us or where we are headed.

We're back to where we were 3 years ago with arguably a worse squad. Somebody has to be accountable and it won't be FSG             

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2015, 03:38:42 PM »
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The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline john_mac

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2015, 03:40:31 PM »
Please, please no. This won't be very palatable, very quickly. Good luck
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2015, 03:44:18 PM »
Another crossroad, another major decision to be made as we are back at that point where we need to decide do we stick with Brendan or is it time to move on as one of the best managers/winners in the past 5 - 10 years may be tempted to join Liverpool. I think Brendan will come good and in 3, 5 plus years he could deliver a title but lets be honest FSG do not have the patience for another top 6 finish do they?

Rogers is where the likes of Klopp was several years ago, learning on the job obviously is one of the best candidates for future success but like anything else that requires time & patience. Even this season has shown the club & def the fans don't have the patience anymore as right now Brendan could stay on but if he has a bad start to the season he will be gone by Christmas or sooner. That impatience or fear hanging over his head will probably lead to some rash decisions as no one stays on the long term path when every step may bring them the bullet. Manager of the year one second, fave to get the sack in the morning the next...what a fickle game we follow these days but its the way the game has gone when you see Ancelotti getting the chop.

Keeping that all in mind then if they can get Klopp they should. Posters laugh at my suggestion to get a Tevez type in but for some strange reason they think Klopp is willing to come to a club who lost 6-1 against Stoke. Why? because we are Liverpool and no matter what result we had last weekend the likes of Klopp if given the right support & promises to back him would love to get us back to where we were. Also the likes of Klopp with the wallet in hand would attract players that Brendan may not be able to right now and at the end of the day the team has fuck all spine / leadership to them at the moment. No disrespect to Brendan but I have a feeling very few lads would want to come off the pitch and face Klopp after a 6-1 hammering. Its sick that I am suggesting time to move on but since I have followed the club since 80/81 I have never known the game to be very charitable. If it was then SG would have had his league medal and Kenny would never have gotten the sack after winning a Cup. Its a short term goal orientated sport these days as 5 year plans no longer wash in the boardroom...you spend the money that warrants top 4 finishes, they don't care what reasons we have that we did not which is why I would not be surprised we could have a new manager here by mid June. Just make sure you don't get rid of just for the sake of it but because the best man for the job is available & willing.
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2015, 03:49:35 PM »
I'm all for a good healthy argument with those with differing viewpoints but I do struggle when the person is saying exactly the same thing and still appears to want a nark.

 ;D

I mean bleedinell Guz things are bad enough as it is. I certainly don't want to end up disappearing up me own arse in a rush of semantics.


I really cannot stand people not giving Rodgers credit for last season. "It was all Suarez" or "Fell into his lap" nonsense. Behave. 

As far as replacing the manager goes - I don't know really. In my books he has credit in the bank from last season. 


And yet I feel also that he has procured enough brownie points with last season's incomparable surge towards greatness to warrant another go especially given how this season's awfulness is down to circumstances largely the fault of others.


« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 04:05:35 PM by Timbo's Goals »

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2015, 04:26:29 PM »

I don't know what I think, exactly, about everything.

It's hard to form an opinion on Rodgers and the squad. It's a Jekyll and Hyde situation.

Following the defeat to Man Utd in December, many heads were shaved. Most noticeably Sterlings. Then we played Bournemouth and Arsenal and Swansea. The hair was gone, so was the lethargy. We were suddenly a team possessed with fighting spirit and hard determination. Pressing high, running hard, playing one touch passes and generating chaos in the final third, winning games. We rode that wave until it crashed on the shores of Anfield when the Mancs came to town. The turgid football returned.

There's most of last season, the exciting diamond, the Blitzkrieg attacks and ruthless goal scoring.

There's the start and end to this turgid season. The terrible defending of last season. There's the shaky first season's blunt football (though it looks quite incisive compared to some of the stuff we've played this season).

Which Rodgers is the true Rodgers? Which squad is the true squad? The man who shelved some of his philosophy and put together a team that nearly won the league? Or the man who played 7 midfielders and no strikers on Sunday? And the squad, are we those bald, possessed, hard-working and exciting technical players that showed up after the first Manc defeat to go undefeated for months? Or the plodding, confused, unfocused and heartless chumps who have been going out on the field since the second loss to the Mancs?

If you take the best opinion of both, then looking at it all from a high level you'd have to say it's madness to give Rodgers his P45 and start a fire sale. Surely, we just need a few tweaks, to steady the transfer business and make the RIGHT buys this summer, and we'll be in the battle for top four all season and finish in it.

If you take the worst opinion, you have no faith in us making the right buys or that Rodgers can put the team together to play in any particular way, flip-flopping between stubborn formations and tactics that don't work to pragmatically shifting talent and tactics around to get wins, only to turn stubborn and then absolutely mad playing almost every player on the pitch out of position.

That's the thing with Rodgers, for me. He's hot or cold, and there's nothing in between. We're either brilliant or terrible and it can flip flop 3 times in a single season, as it did in 14/15.

You look at our squad, you look at the football they have been capable of, even without Suarez or a prolific goal scorer, and you think: surely there is a solid core to a team in there. They should always be there. Why do they go missing entirely for large chunks of the season?

Is it that Rodgers hasn't settled on how he wants to play? He's stubborn for months then suddenly open minded enough to flush it down the shitter and try something completely different. He's done it in every season with us.

Why? Because he always tries to take us back to his core philosophy, the possession game, dominating the ball, starving the other team and generating quality chances. But this is the one style of play we have absolutely failed at since 2012/13 when he first arrived. We ended that season using Coutinho and Sturridge to counter attack. We almost won the league playing a very aggressive counter attacking side that was technically skilled. This season, when we looked sharp with the 3421 we were closer to last season's football than what we played in 2012 and what Rodgers did with Swansea.

With Benteke in the paper talk, and a return to his 4231/433 after Manchester United, it seems he's going to make another go at playing the way he wants.

I just can't see it ending well.

We have some great players, a mix of technical skill and hard work and players who haven't even reached their potential. I can't help but feel Rodgers doesn't know how to mold them into the footballing side he envisions. He can get something out of them playing to their strengths (see last season), but if we continue to ask him to shape our team for the future I can't see it ending well for us.



Offline Guz-kop

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2015, 04:40:30 PM »
I'm all for a good healthy argument with those with differing viewpoints but I do struggle when the person is saying exactly the same thing and still appears to want a nark.

 ;D

I mean bleedinell Guz things are bad enough as it is. I certainly don't want to end up disappearing up me own arse in a rush of semantics.




I wasn't saying I disagreed with you and wasn't necessarily aiming it at you, just using your paragraph as a starting point!
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