Author Topic: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool  (Read 13385 times)

Offline JerseyKloppite

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Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« on: November 23, 2014, 05:06:35 pm »
Thought I'd start one as I just got back from the game and don't want to face the post-match thread.

We were poor, they wanted it more and deserved the points.

Far too slow and ponderous in our build up. Lovren and Skrtel looked terrified to carry the ball and neither are good enough passers to link up with Gerrard and move the ball into attack the way we want to. Errors from both of them, several times going for the same ball. Lovren looked better in fairness, made a couple of decent tackles but the system is in disarray.

Manquillo looked bright but was given a torrid afternoon by Palace's forwards, Johnson had a bad afternoon and made several unforced errors. All Palace needed to do was run at us or punt it long and we looked incredibly fragile.

Gerrard is not a holding midfielder. The system worked last year because our attack was so potent that other teams had to sit 10-15 yards closer to their own goal and Gerrard was never put under the pressure he is now. There's none of that fear now (with good reason) so we're constantly pressed and Gerrard cannot cope. He should be moved up the pitch with Can or Lucas behind him. If his legs can't cope with a CM role he needs to play as a second striker or AM.

Lallana was a bright spark today, he and Coutinho (who was our best player) make things happen and his assist was good. We looked much worse when he went off for Borini and we resorted to lumping passes forward for Lambert. His work rate is good but playing in a midfield three, especially one where he needs to do a lot of defensive work, is not his best position and limits his game.

Allen looked so lightweight today against a powerful Palace midfielder, bullied off the ball and given little time to do anything. I don't think he's a substitute for Henderson, and really (like Gerrard) needs the protection afforded by the tenacity and work-rate of Lucas, Henderson or Can. By the time Can came on it was too late. Gerrard-Lallana-Allen was a very weak midfield to play in a game like today. Even if all of them are great passers of the ball, none were strong enough defensively and when Palace attacked at pace we were overrun. System or players? Maybe a bit of both.

Coutinho sparkled and looked the only player likely to create something. Sterling was OK, his pace gave us some threat and we might have had a peno at 2-1 when he was barged over. But he lacks confidence, our whole team does. Always looking to pass instead of shoot, which is dangerous when you only have one forward in the XI.

As for Rickie, he gave it a go and took his goal well. Looked a handful for their defenders but lacked support for most of the game.

The players seem sapped of all energy and enjoyment of the game at the moment. I'm sure the miserable driving rain didn't help, but Palace were up for this and didn't stop for 90 mins. It's like our lot want the season to be over already and it's only late November. The travelling Kop did its very best to keep encouraging the players but I think even they found it hard when there was so little to be encouraged by in return. The second half was the quietest I've ever heard Liverpool's away support and that was made all the more stark by the Palace home fans who were fantastic.

We need something significant, a really big turning point. Every week I think 'it can't get much worse' but then it does. Or at least it doesn't get any better.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 05:08:24 pm by JerseyKopite »

Offline archie

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 10:31:40 pm »
Good effort mate.

I don't have any amazing insight or analysis (never do) but I remember saying on a round table that you can learn more from your defeats. (Think it was after Villa). We talked after that game, everyone agreeing it was a blip. We wouldn't, indeed we couldn't, be that shite again. 

And here we are.

Through Brendan's time here he has always learned lessons and adapted when things haven't worked out. For me, there was always an upward trajectory. Not a straight line by any means but enough to see there was a plan and we were making progress. To say it was all down to Suarez does Brendan and other players a disservice imo.

Did we learn anything from Villa or any of the games that followed?
Very little it appears, although there have been pockets of good performances. However, without the results it becomes tougher to justify anything.

Everyone is in front of the ball when we lose it (bar the centre halves). One pass or run through the massive gaps and we are straight into panic mode.
Confidence is low so I don't expect free flowing football, it's points over performance for the forseeable future. But today was poor in so many respects.

Palace did what they needed to do but if we are honest they are not a good side and we made their average players look brilliant at times.

There are players on the bench who have every right to be starting. They have done their jobs when called upon, so why not give at least one of them a go? That's the reason for a squad, isn't it? It makes the whole approach to Madrid slightly baffling to me.

Brendan is a young manager, who is going to make mistakes. This is a big test for him and for us.

I really hope we can come through this.

A big week awaits.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 10:33:41 pm by archie »

Offline Aristotle

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 10:55:48 pm »
A fundamental lack of seeing our actions through is what cost us more than anything today. I mean we were equally atrocious on every level as we were two weeks ago but you could see everything going wrong today. Johnson giving the ball away on a number of occasions had us conceding chances outnumbered, despite having the ball in our own half. Joe Allen was forced off the pitch and no one thought that there was a Joe Allen sized hole in our midfield when they broke on the counter. Then Bolaise, who for all his qualities, really isn't the type of player who should be capable of just bulldozing past us like Yaya Toure in his prime. The follow up was just prime example of this season. Skrtel doesn't tell Lovren that he's lost Bolaise until he shoots, then Lovren closes down too late - neither picks up Gayle who actually snuffs his shot to hit Mignolet on the way in.

The 2nd goal will probably haunt me for the rest of my life. After Real Madrid & Chelsea I thought Mignolet might have gotten things together but that goal sealed the deal for me. I have an extremely high tolerance for GK after a conversation with a former pro who conceded 5 in the only cup final he ever played. But after that goal I shouted "fuck off back to Belgium!". It was the epitome of literally everything you shouldn't do as a GK. That former pro I just mentioned said that there is one fundamental rule that's even more basic than catching the ball when it comes your way. Don't go out of your box to kick the ball unless you know it's going to end up out of touch for anyone coming to attack - or it ends up with a team mate. Mignolet violated that rule. He ran over to the corner flag to take a free kick (why did he even do that?). He told Lovren to piss off when he came for the short ball. He kicked the ball straight out for a throw-in, close to our goal. He was frustrated with himself so he lightly jogged back to the box. Lovren was understandably frustrated and looked way off when the throw-in came [you can blame Lovren for lacking concentration but he did the right thing initially and was let down so he at least had the right instinct]. Mignolet then is in the wrong position and state of mind when the ball comes into the box and then gets beaten by a shot straight at him and between his legs. IT was a quintessential "what not to do" video that you'd put out on YouTube for any aspiring goalkeeper.
Just buy a proper fucking goalkeeper. I like the guy but fucking hell that was an atrocious 30 seconds to sum up his form all season. It was the type of moment where De Gea has helped United get an 8 point lead on us - despite playing equally as badly as we have.

As for the free kick. Fair play to Jedinak (whom I kinda like, but no idea why) who took a very good free kick. But sometimes you got to take a calculated risk. From that range, right to the center of goal it was a very biased choice. There was no one on the left side to head the ball in from there. Fair enough if you've got Luis Suarez from there. He did it against Norwich. Bale did it in his last season with Spurs. Messi and Ronaldo have done it. Yaya Toure did it once. But Mile Jedinak is not the type to magically after 30 years develop the technique to fluctuate the path of the ball so it goes away from the goalkeeper but stays inward enough to hit the top corner. When he took his first steps he leaned so far that was only going to hit it one way. It was hard, it was very well hit and maybe impossible to save. But at least take the step - get a finger to it. At least read the situation right. Some shots you just don't save that's fair enough. A well hit penalty should always be impossible to save. This might fall into that category, but at least read it rightly if you're going to be convincingly beaten from that range.



For Liverpool's sake. Brilliantly worked goal by the former Southampton pair. Should've had a penalty when Kelly sealflopped at Sterling's cross. Manquillo had some good runs and should at least have tested Speroni when set up by Coutinho and Sterling. But other than that, it's word-for-word repeat of Newcastle. And I'll bring back from a month back on Sterling. He desperately needs a rest. Not a physical rest but a mental and emotional one. He's 19 years old. He steps onto the pitch for club and country knowing that if he has an off day then chances will be of an extremely limited supply. That's the type of burnout that leads to bad decision making and an indifference which can result in a spiral of shit and the Michael Owen type of burnout. Give the lad a break and show that we can boss without him and maybe he'll knock a few zeros off his contract demands, because otherwise we'll need all those dollar signs lighting up if he isn't supposed to have his head turned.
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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 11:05:04 pm »
Just back the manager. That is all.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 12:22:12 am »
Just back the manager. That is all.

Really? Because I don't buy that at all.

Our best performance in the last while, by some distance, was in Madrid with a second string side. We looked like all the things we used to but don't any more. Confident in defence, snappy in midfield, calm and precise on the ball. The players on the pitch today did not measure up to those standards and haven't for a while. So it isn't a silly observation to say, hey, what about that selection? That's the manager's fault.

When he says he takes responsibility, that's not admirable. That's the sort of thing that successful communicators do, admit guilt while not specifying what you did wrong or what you intend to do about it. In a run like this, I think we are entitled to a little more than someone taking on meaningless "responsibility". So, yeah, I'm backing the manager in that I am not calling for his head but I would like some explaining to be done.

Also, if that's the Gerrard we get after no internationals, he may as well give La Hodgo a call. That would be Roy Hodgson, ex Liverpool manager who sported a not dissimilar record at this point in his sodden spell with us.

Offline Hinesy

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 11:26:21 pm »
Round table up. Bleak midwinter. And its only November.
Yep.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 01:31:51 am »
I was extremely happy to see us finally start with all 3 of Sterling, Coutinho, and Lallana. I actually think those 3 with Balotelli could be quite potent.

Unfortunately also starting with Allen means that we had our 4 lightest weight midfielders on at the same time, which seemed a major gamble and totally backfired. I think you could get away with it if on top and had someone bossing from the base of midfield, but we don't have either of those right now so it wasn't a good decision.

Still cannot comprehend why we play Gerrard at the base of midfield - I don't like it, never have, and I believe it is unhelpful for us all said.

This game was screaming for one (or two if Gerrard was left out) of Can, Henderson, and Lucas. I think we probably would have won if we had done that

Offline trembles97

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 02:06:58 am »
We have to give Rodgers time to adapt to life without Suarez and Sturridge, because that's clearly going to be the case for a sizable amount of games. Of course Suarez isn't coming back, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that Sturridge is going to be a luxury, and anytime that we have him fully fit and ready to go will be a rarity.

That said, its easy to blame the transfers for our largely impotent play. Balotelli hasn't scored. Lambert's been poorly managed and hasn't been able to create traction. Markovic even less so. Lovren. Lovren. Lovren. And yet, for every bad player there seems to be a hit. Can, Moreno, and Manquillo all seem to be astute pieces of business. Lallana is coming into form. They are clear pieces that Rodgers has brought in that look to be Liverpool players. 50% success rate on transfers can create a good side, especially in the long run with all of these young players.

But we have to play those in form players. Get Can in for Gerrard. Moreno for Johnson. Toure for Skrtel or Lovren. Trim the fat. Get rid of players who have become way too comfortable in their position at the club. We need competition in times of duress, not continued reliance upon players that do not deserve to play. Play the players that deserve to play.

And thats all on Rodgers. I'll back him every day of the week, but its becoming increasingly apparent he needs to make a change within the spine of the team. Hopefully that means Toure and Sakho. Hopefully that means using Gerrard sparingly. Hopefully that means bringing back the fluid, poetic play of last season that brought so much excitement and anticipation around this team.

I believe in Brendan Rodgers. But he has to change things up. I'd say bin that CB pairing, get Can, Henderson, and Coutinho in midfield, with Lallana, Markovic, and Sterling up front. Make teams fear our ability to play the creative and fast paced play that this squad is very capable of displaying. But what do I know. I didn't lead a team that had Victor Moses as its super sub to 2nd place and a title run. Brendan did. And its time that he reminds us how he did it.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 02:08:44 am by trembles97 »

Offline hollger

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2014, 08:46:05 am »
Gerrard is not a holding midfielder. The system worked last year because our attack was so potent that other teams had to sit 10-15 yards closer to their own goal and Gerrard was never put under the pressure he is now. There's none of that fear now (with good reason) so we're constantly pressed and Gerrard cannot cope. He should be moved up the pitch with Can or Lucas behind him. If his legs can't cope with a CM role he needs to play as a second striker or AM.

This is the crux of the problem for me. I'm far from anything that resembles a PhaseofPlay so I'll quite happily accept if I'm wrong, but we are incredibly easy to beat at the moment if the opposition just has a go at us - and the root of the problem is the position of Gerrard, to my eyes. His position made sense last year when we had the 'SaS' partnership who loved nothing more than penning opposition CB's back because they had pace and skill - they could destroy in the blink of an eye. Gerrard was therefore afforded the luxury of having more time on the ball and was able to ping about those fantastic passes that he no doubt possesses with gay abandon. Without that (or *any*) threat up front, opposition teams are now free to worry less about our attack and push up, crowd around Gerrard and cause us massive problems.

This may be too simplistic but I've seen the same pattern in a number of our games this season. It was obvious before we even kicked a ball on Sunday that if Gerrard played where he usually does, ahead of Lucas and/or Can, then Warnock's team would relish nothing more than bullying and harrassing our midfield and defence into a mistake. It doesn't seem difficult to see for the fans or for opposition managers, so why can't our management? Do they think we'll cope or that we're better/should be better (either tactically or in personnel)?

There've been numerous mentions of Bolasie (even calls for us to sign him in the post-match thread) and yes, he had a decent game. But did he really do that much, other than chance his arm and run at our team!? The saying 'pace kills' is a favourite in football and it was never more apt than in this case - Bolasie is not Ronaldo, Bale or Robben yet he caused us massive problems simply by having the confidence to have a go and knowing his pace would make us, for want of a better phrase, shit ourselves.

It's utterly baffling why Rodgers is persisting with this formation when it seems so easy for the opposition to hurt us. Even if Henderson is fit and being 'Gerrard's legs' the problem remains, as when Henderson shuttles up and down at some point, Gerrard will be inevitably left exposed on the counter.

I'm struggling to recall positives from the match, but Lambert getting a goal was one. A sublime touch and cool finish after he was found brilliantly by his ex-Southampton teammate Lallana and I suspect seeing something like that was what a number of us were hoping might happen if they were played together more regularly. He had a couple more chances with his head and you'd expect him to do better, but with the lack of game time it's understandable he's not quite razor sharp. Coutinho was always trying but I think he finds it very difficult without either a fast and/or tricky forward to feed those through/revers passes in to. It must be very frustrating possessing his vision and ability but being unable to fully realise it at the moment. Manquillo was fairly solid, again. If only he had a little more composure in the final third - but hopefully that can come with his development. There was a moment where Gerrard sprayed a glorious fading pass out to him and he took it first time to cross on the volley, but I don't think there was anyone in the box to aim at (or maybe only Rickie was in there, meaning the pass had to be almost perfect). Joe Allen was good but unfortunately for the second time in a week or so took an elbow to the head. Not really sure what happened with his shirt but whatever it was, we lost a goal without him on the field. Bit of a cock up, that one.

Our best performance in the last while, by some distance, was in Madrid with a second string side. We looked like all the things we used to but don't any more. Confident in defence, snappy in midfield, calm and precise on the ball. The players on the pitch today did not measure up to those standards and haven't for a while. So it isn't a silly observation to say, hey, what about that selection? That's the manager's fault.

This is a very valid and for me somewhat worrying point. There are players who are in the side who just aren't doing enough. After the Madrid game and then the side picked for Chelsea, the comments Rodgers made about picking players on merit look a little like lies. I can understand that there would have been some tired legs from that team because they put in a massive shift in Madrid, and can also maybe go along with wanting some more 'senior heads' in the side - but to keep on picking these players when week after week they aren't doing the business is bordering on the ridiculous now. The starting eleven for Ludogorets (and then Stoke) will speak volumes for me.

I'm 100% in the 'support the team and manager' camp and always will be, but it's starting to really feel like the continuing decisions to play some players over others or to stick with a formation that doesn't work is eroding support in sections of the fanbase - and once that starts to swell it's a very slippery slope, as we know all too well from recent history.

Offline L666KOP

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 08:54:33 am »
.

This is a very valid and for me somewhat worrying point. There are players who are in the side who just aren't doing enough. After the Madrid game and then the side picked for Chelsea, the comments Rodgers made about picking players on merit look a little like lies. I can understand that there would have been some tired legs from that team because they put in a massive shift in Madrid, and can also maybe go along with wanting some more 'senior heads' in the side - but to keep on picking these players when week after week they aren't doing the business is bordering on the ridiculous now. The starting eleven for Ludogorets (and then Stoke) will speak volumes for me.



I posted numerous times on this subject, and I understood where Brendan was possibly going. Drop those that weren't performing for the glamour game in Madrid, give them a kick up the arse for 'letting the team' down.

On Saturday you have a chance to redeem yourselves against Chelsea.

It was the line up yesterday that really got up my nose, those that failed to heed the warning were still picked. And that really rankles me.

The elephant is Gerrard, and I'm not in the 'let's move him higher' camp. He's no longer good enough to be on the pitch by default. Why we insist on finding him a place because he isn't good enough to command his 'regular' berth is astounding. I'm not daft enough to think that Brendan isn't wrestling with himself over the issue, but a little help from FSG might go a long way to solving the problem.
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Offline McrRed

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2014, 10:10:37 am »
I posted numerous times on this subject, and I understood where Brendan was possibly going. Drop those that weren't performing for the glamour game in Madrid, give them a kick up the arse for 'letting the team' down.

On Saturday you have a chance to redeem yourselves against Chelsea.

It was the line up yesterday that really got up my nose, those that failed to heed the warning were still picked. And that really rankles me.

The elephant is Gerrard, and I'm not in the 'let's move him higher' camp. He's no longer good enough to be on the pitch by default. Why we insist on finding him a place because he isn't good enough to command his 'regular' berth is astounding. I'm not daft enough to think that Brendan isn't wrestling with himself over the issue, but a little help from FSG might go a long way to solving the problem.
It's a fascinating perfect storm that Brendan Rodgers is having to deal with. A side that ripped it up last season is now being ripped apart on the field - and many say should be ripped up in the manager's head and on the teamsheet.

Gerrard's place in the side is now being widely questioned, as it was last season. The difference in my opinion is that last year we had the pressing/pressure to keep people away from Gerrard. This year, it's like we're too static and then we remember we're supposed to be fluid and bomb forward in numbers (and in a line). We overcommit and teams counter whilst we flap around in panic.

Interestingly for me our defensive transitions are one of the weakest parts of our game and when I see our back line evaporate to the ten yard line I know we're in trouble. There was one point on Sunday where Gerrard was jogging back with Johnson in tow and then realised and sprinted the rest of the way to a recovery position. Unsurprisingly, that palace attack was negated. The midfield had done its job in slowing the attack down and we could get a defensive shape back.

Still on the subject of Gerrard, last season there were times when I wanted to see him rested but his set-piece delivery and our ability to capitalise on it made his starting berth a sure one. Hendo did his running and it worked (mostly) like a dream.
This year, so far, we're not troubling teams from set-piece situations and Gerrard got shown how to do it by Jedinak of all people. Not necessarily Gerrard's fault that some of the good balls he put in haven't been taken advantage of - we perhaps should have had a couple of headed goals on Sunday - but our finishing hasn't been clinical.

I think Rodgers is hoping that our set-piece magic returns and we can use it to build a way into winning games (though even that is suspect for us at the moment - one nil up after two minutes, we looked good for twenty then gave up).

Testicles. Everyone's talking about them. Brendan's that is. Here's hoping he can do what he needs to sort this sorry puzzle  out.

Of all things, what I miss most from the back end of last season was our offensive transitions. When the opposition had a free kick or a corner I thought, with joyful regularity, eh up we're gonna score here. That's when THEY had the ball! All gone now like tears in the rain.

Offline gandalf50

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2014, 10:21:42 am »
A fundamental lack of seeing our actions through is what cost us more than anything today. I mean we were equally atrocious on every level as we were two weeks ago but you could see everything going wrong today. Johnson giving the ball away on a number of occasions had us conceding chances outnumbered, despite having the ball in our own half. Joe Allen was forced off the pitch and no one thought that there was a Joe Allen sized hole in our midfield when they broke on the counter. Then Bolaise, who for all his qualities, really isn't the type of player who should be capable of just bulldozing past us like Yaya Toure in his prime. The follow up was just prime example of this season. Skrtel doesn't tell Lovren that he's lost Bolaise until he shoots, then Lovren closes down too late - neither picks up Gayle who actually snuffs his shot to hit Mignolet on the way in.

The 2nd goal will probably haunt me for the rest of my life. After Real Madrid & Chelsea I thought Mignolet might have gotten things together but that goal sealed the deal for me. I have an extremely high tolerance for GK after a conversation with a former pro who conceded 5 in the only cup final he ever played. But after that goal I shouted "fuck off back to Belgium!". It was the epitome of literally everything you shouldn't do as a GK. That former pro I just mentioned said that there is one fundamental rule that's even more basic than catching the ball when it comes your way. Don't go out of your box to kick the ball unless you know it's going to end up out of touch for anyone coming to attack - or it ends up with a team mate. Mignolet violated that rule. He ran over to the corner flag to take a free kick (why did he even do that?). He told Lovren to piss off when he came for the short ball. He kicked the ball straight out for a throw-in, close to our goal. He was frustrated with himself so he lightly jogged back to the box. Lovren was understandably frustrated and looked way off when the throw-in came [you can blame Lovren for lacking concentration but he did the right thing initially and was let down so he at least had the right instinct]. Mignolet then is in the wrong position and state of mind when the ball comes into the box and then gets beaten by a shot straight at him and between his legs. IT was a quintessential "what not to do" video that you'd put out on YouTube for any aspiring goalkeeper.
Just buy a proper fucking goalkeeper. I like the guy but fucking hell that was an atrocious 30 seconds to sum up his form all season. It was the type of moment where De Gea has helped United get an 8 point lead on us - despite playing equally as badly as we have.

As for the free kick. Fair play to Jedinak (whom I kinda like, but no idea why) who took a very good free kick. But sometimes you got to take a calculated risk. From that range, right to the center of goal it was a very biased choice. There was no one on the left side to head the ball in from there. Fair enough if you've got Luis Suarez from there. He did it against Norwich. Bale did it in his last season with Spurs. Messi and Ronaldo have done it. Yaya Toure did it once. But Mile Jedinak is not the type to magically after 30 years develop the technique to fluctuate the path of the ball so it goes away from the goalkeeper but stays inward enough to hit the top corner. When he took his first steps he leaned so far that was only going to hit it one way. It was hard, it was very well hit and maybe impossible to save. But at least take the step - get a finger to it. At least read the situation right. Some shots you just don't save that's fair enough. A well hit penalty should always be impossible to save. This might fall into that category, but at least read it rightly if you're going to be convincingly beaten from that range.



For Liverpool's sake. Brilliantly worked goal by the former Southampton pair. Should've had a penalty when Kelly sealflopped at Sterling's cross. Manquillo had some good runs and should at least have tested Speroni when set up by Coutinho and Sterling. But other than that, it's word-for-word repeat of Newcastle. And I'll bring back from a month back on Sterling. He desperately needs a rest. Not a physical rest but a mental and emotional one. He's 19 years old. He steps onto the pitch for club and country knowing that if he has an off day then chances will be of an extremely limited supply. That's the type of burnout that leads to bad decision making and an indifference which can result in a spiral of shit and the Michael Owen type of burnout. Give the lad a break and show that we can boss without him and maybe he'll knock a few zeros off his contract demands, because otherwise we'll need all those dollar signs lighting up if he isn't supposed to have his head turned.

The only time our goalkeepers have been really outstanding in the last 20 years was the period from 2005 to 2009 and especially in the period when Xavi Valero was goalkeeping coach. If you go back and look at the coaching qualifications he had and then compare John Achterberg to that, you may see why our standards have fallen in this area. Apart from that preiod we seem to take good goalkeepers and turn them into bad ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavi_Valero

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Achterberg

Also speaking of De Gea, was there not an interview with either him or Lindergard where they said that when they came to Manu the goalkeeping coach told them that they would discard the techniques used at their former clubs and rebuild the way they would goal keep?
There really isn't.  I think a lot of us, even our own have started doubting it. It's time to rise up. And take what is rightfully ours. It's a big mountain, but what is the point in achieving something, which everyone can?

Fate has given us a mountain too big. We have to rise. We have to believe.

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Offline robgomm

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2014, 10:26:24 am »
Really? Because I don't buy that at all.

Our best performance in the last while, by some distance, was in Madrid with a second string side. We looked like all the things we used to but don't any more. Confident in defence, snappy in midfield, calm and precise on the ball. The players on the pitch today did not measure up to those standards and haven't for a while. So it isn't a silly observation to say, hey, what about that selection? That's the manager's fault.

When he says he takes responsibility, that's not admirable. That's the sort of thing that successful communicators do, admit guilt while not specifying what you did wrong or what you intend to do about it. In a run like this, I think we are entitled to a little more than someone taking on meaningless "responsibility". So, yeah, I'm backing the manager in that I am not calling for his head but I would like some explaining to be done.

Also, if that's the Gerrard we get after no internationals, he may as well give La Hodgo a call. That would be Roy Hodgson, ex Liverpool manager who sported a not dissimilar record at this point in his sodden spell with us.

Rodgers is two years+ into his time here so Hogdson didn't have a "this point" in his spell. Unless you're saying you can just take any first few months of any season ever and compare records. It removes all context and common sense to view records like this so while in no way denying the current run is bad, it's rather unhelpful and unbefitting to just cherry pick time periods to judge Rodgers' standing.

We won 11 games in a row last season too but we rightly don't cherry pick that against all our other managers or anyone else's managers.

Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2014, 10:40:21 am »
This seems to be like déjà vu week after week. We’re all like a bunch of broken records when the same things are occurring and the same players are making the same mistakes, game after game. The bottom line is that Gerrard, Mignolet, Lovren, Skrtel & Johnson should be nowhere near our starting 11.
 
We are 18 games into our season (12 in the league) and these players have consistently under performed this season but they still continue to play every game. Both Lovren & Gerrard have only a 68% successful tackle percentage and Gerrard, bearing in mind he is playing as a DCM, has only won 54% of duels. How can you have someone playing in a role whose main duty is to protect the back four when nearly half of the time he’s not winning the ball back?

Johnson’s stats are a little better but still very poor reading in that he is only successful in 73% of his tackles and only wins 54% of his duels! Is it any surprise that when you get a team that runs at us that we shit ourselves when we clearly have an inability to win a challenge?

Mignolet’s strengths are his shot stopping ability, but when you consider that this season he only has a 63% shot/save ratio, you have to question why he is still playing when his distribution, communication and ability to catch a cross is so poor? Surely it’s time to give Brad Jones a go? The poor lad was fast asleep on the bench on Sunday as he knows that no matter how crap Mignolet is, he’s never getting a game! That pissed me off something rotten to be honest, but I think we have more pressing issues than Brad Jones’s concentration on the bench.

Gerrard is not a holding midfielder. The system worked last year because our attack was so potent that other teams had to sit 10-15 yards closer to their own goal and Gerrard was never put under the pressure he is now. There's none of that fear now (with good reason) so we're constantly pressed and Gerrard cannot cope. He should be moved up the pitch with Can or Lucas behind him. If his legs can't cope with a CM role he needs to play as a second striker or AM.


This is the nail on the head for me. We’re not at a point that we can play an ‘Allen’ or ‘Henderson’ alongside him to provide the legs that he hasn’t got anymore. People have found us out. It’s not working and he needs to be removed from the position. We can all see it so why can’t Brendan? He either knows about the problem and doesn’t have the cojones to drop him or he hasn’t even recognised that there is a problem. Either way, it’s not a very good sign and doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence.

Sterling needs a rest as he looks knackered. It’s a massive amount of pressure for someone who’s only 19 years old. He’s had a very good season last year, he’s then had a world cup, 3 weeks rest, then back to Liverpool where he is now the one player that everyone is looking at to ‘light up’ a game. You can see in his play he’s running out of ideas, shifting the ball onto his right every time, cutting back instead of running at defenders, misplaced passing, lack of concentration in following runners etc. He needs a rest.

I’m happy for Lambert that he got his first goal. It was a fantastic ball from Lallana (who looked lively all game) and it was a great touch to bring the ball down and slot it home. It was a great finish and the type of composed finish we’ve missed in recent months. The worrying thing though and I’m sure I’m not alone when I say this was that when the goal went in, we knew that we’d need at least another goal (if not 2 more) to get the win. When you are a team with aspirations of getting in the top 4 and have hopes of progressing into the CL knockout stages, you have to be confident of holding a lead when you go to places like Crystal Palace away. The fact that we weren’t tells its own story.

Brendan has a huge few weeks coming up and has some very tough decisions to make quickly. He has my full support and I pray that he makes the right decisions and gets us back on track as I really like the guy. With the fixtures and results coming in thick and fast, if things don’t go our way, the pressure and criticism will mount extremely quickly and who knows what will happen at that point.
We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2014, 11:34:40 am »
The story is pretty simple, it's the last game days of a Liverpool legend, probably the best Liverpool player a lot have witnessed with their own eyes.

That's what it's all about really, and how a manager tries to deal with it.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline L666KOP

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2014, 11:56:43 am »
How do you know that FSG aren`t telling him to play our top Jersey seller every game?

Ha, that's another angle to the 'story'.

Nobody knows why, and nobody ever will I suppose. Just like the rest of the opinions aired on the forum.

But we can all see it isn't working, so we look for reasons why Brendan persists.

13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline faisfais

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2014, 12:26:28 pm »
We have to give Rodgers time to adapt to life without Suarez and Sturridge, because that's clearly going to be the case for a sizable amount of games.

I think a majority of people on this forum were in this camp before the Crystal Palace game. What appears to worry me is that he had quite a few days during the international break to devise a new system with fresh players and yet we looked devoid of any cohesive game plan.

Offline Tony19:6

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2014, 12:44:57 pm »
Don't really get the criticism of Allen, despite the silly headgear thought he was comfortably our best MF.

Coutinho too looked lively if wasteful at times and Rickie took his goal well, as well as providing a threat in the first half at least.

I'd have gone with Toure in the back four, looked decent in his previous outing and thought he deserved a spot, Lovren needs to be taken out of the firing line for a while.

Think Moreno or Enrique should have started at LB, it just isn't happening for Johnson.

At the end of the day Palace won, not through quality, more through wanting it more, bullying us at times, which I'd expect us to be able to match physically.

Worrying times...
A Great man once said...
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It is terribly simple."

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Offline stockdam

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2014, 02:10:26 pm »
You could say the we were unfortunate to lose as their first goal was going wide until it hit Mignolet. For their third goal their player was holding Skrtel as much as the other way round. However that would be papering over the cracks.

In the halftime thread I said that we would lose the game unless we started to fight. We did have a better 2nd half but there was no real fight.

We have no speed to our play and are content to play the ball sideways in our own half. Our midfield look fine when they have the ball but they just will not track back or press when they lose the ball. There were probably four players watching their player during the buildup to their first goal. Our midfield do not protect our defence and then it looks as if our defence are the problem. For their 2nd goal there was nobody busting a gut to get back to help out.

Palace wanted it more but they had very little threat. We just rolled over and allowed a team that fought harder to win. This has happened many times in the past and I'm sick of listening to the excuses about giving the squad time to gel. Giving 100% and pressing the opposition is a basic thing that all players should do. Strolling back when you lose the ball has nothing to do with the changes to the squad, it is all to do with attitude and commitment. Either the manager is allowing this attitude to prevail or the players just don't really care. Tactics and formation are useless if the basics are not going to be done.

If I could see us doing the basics right then I would be optimistic but when I see a team that costs a fortune getting beaten by a weak team who try then I see no hope for improvement.

The first thing to do is to bring back the "2nd" team who played against RM because at least they tried their best.

There is something ridiculously wrong when after paying over €100M we have attackers who wouldn't get on the Palace team.

I've heard enough excuses and too much "give them time". There are no excuses for losing that match the way they did.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 02:54:55 pm by stockdam »
#JFT97

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 02:11:02 pm »
Don't really get the criticism of Allen, despite the silly headgear thought he was comfortably our best MF.

Coutinho too looked lively if wasteful at times and Rickie took his goal well, as well as providing a threat in the first half at least.

I'd have gone with Toure in the back four, looked decent in his previous outing and thought he deserved a spot, Lovren needs to be taken out of the firing line for a while.

Think Moreno or Enrique should have started at LB, it just isn't happening for Johnson.

At the end of the day Palace won, not through quality, more through wanting it more, bullying us at times, which I'd expect us to be able to match physically.

Worrying times...

I thought Allen was fine in isolation, but...

Given the real play that we made was putting Lallana Sterling and Coutinho on at the same time (afaik thats the first time all 3 have started together), using Allen as well is just a really risky move. And I think it showed holistically, as we weren't able to compete when trying to win the ball back, which is probably what you'd expect with those 4. He played fine on the ball though.

So no issues with Allen specifically, but issues with the tactic

Offline JerseyKloppite

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 05:02:42 pm »
I thought Allen was fine in isolation, but...

Given the real play that we made was putting Lallana Sterling and Coutinho on at the same time (afaik thats the first time all 3 have started together), using Allen as well is just a really risky move. And I think it showed holistically, as we weren't able to compete when trying to win the ball back, which is probably what you'd expect with those 4. He played fine on the ball though.

So no issues with Allen specifically, but issues with the tactic

He wasn't atrocious but I really didn't see him do anything. Crossed to the back post for a Lambert headed chance in the first half but that was about it. Can't remember him doing a great deal of defensive work either, he got muscled off the ball a couple of times and I thought Lallana was working harder.

I don't want to do him a disservice though, so without stats about his tackling/passing etc I won't say any more. But I agree that the main issue was, as I said above, the combination of him with Coutinho, Lallana and Sterling (and the limited Gerrard). Not strong enough.

Offline robgomm

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 05:44:01 pm »
I thought Allen was really good. Harried and got his foot in off the ball and was smart with it, making some good passes. According to WhoScored he:

- Completed 98% of his passes
- Made 3 key passes
- Completed 1 tackle and 4 interceptions, higher total of 5 than anyone else

In fact, every player bar Gerrard in the diamond completed 90%+ of their passes and every one made tackles and interceptions. If you put Lucas in there instead of Gerrard you might actually get a solid looking midfield but we'd still be fairly open with the full backs getting forward.

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 10:18:31 pm »
Really?

Yes, really. We've played the best football I can remember in a very long time under this manager. At some stage we have to commit to a long term project. If we don't, forget any kiddie on plans you might have of any kind of sustainable success. Simply forget it.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2014, 10:25:41 pm »
Yes, really. We've played the best football I can remember in a very long time under this manager. At some stage we have to commit to a long term project. If we don't, forget any kiddie on plans you might have of any kind of sustainable success. Simply forget it.
FWIW Rodgers is not the only manager out there practicing this particular brand of football so if what was unthinkable last season happens in the near future won`t mean we have to take a different direction because if lucky maybe we even find someone as good who on top of it has a better tactical nous on the defensive side of the ball. Personally I`m desperate for Rodgers to succeed but if by the end of the next season we`re still conceding at 1.3+ goals per game on average situation will become untenable.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2014, 10:57:00 pm »
Yes, really. We've played the best football I can remember in a very long time under this manager. At some stage we have to commit to a long term project. If we don't, forget any kiddie on plans you might have of any kind of sustainable success. Simply forget it.

For how long and with which players healthy and in form at the same time?

Btw, we played that wonderful football only after he went to the diamond, which was, apparently, not one of his favorite formations/approaches. God only knows how many times many of us suggested it and we were shot down for it. Then when he did choose to go with it, he was the genius.

Ludi Circenses!

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2014, 10:58:30 pm »
For how long and with which players healthy and in form at the same time?

Btw, we played that wonderful football only after he went to the diamond, which was, apparently, not one of his favorite formations/approaches. God only knows how many times many of us suggested it and we were shot down for it. Then when he did choose to go with it, he was the genius.


Now I want you as our manager, though I doubt the players would understand your big words  :P

Offline 007.lankyguy

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2014, 11:05:41 pm »
For how long and with which players healthy and in form at the same time?

Btw, we played that wonderful football only after he went to the diamond, which was, apparently, not one of his favorite formations/approaches. God only knows how many times many of us suggested it and we were shot down for it. Then when he did choose to go with it, he was the genius.
What are you expecting? A team to play sublime football with unfit, terrible players?

And we actually played a lot of our good football in a 4-3-3. Tottenham away, Arsenal at home, Everton at home - all 4-3-3
"Mind you, I've been here during the bad times too - one year we came second." Sir Bob

Offline wige

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2014, 11:13:53 pm »
FWIW Rodgers is not the only manager out there practicing this particular brand of football so if what was unthinkable last season happens in the near future won`t mean we have to take a different direction because if lucky maybe we even find someone as good who on top of it has a better tactical nous on the defensive side of the ball. Personally I`m desperate for Rodgers to succeed but if by the end of the next season we`re still conceding at 1.3+ goals per game on average situation will become untenable.

It shouldn't though.

Next bit not aimed at you personally  :)

After last season, every single Liverpool fan should be singing his and the team's name as loudly as possible. Backing him & them. Last season was just fucking joyous. To turn on the group this quickly would be criminal.

Things need to settle. Personally I think he's got an absolute nightmare scenario! Lost Suarez. Missed out on Sanchez/Remy. Loses Sturridge to injury, arguably 3 times if you think of it from Brendans point of view (ie, any plans he may be making around 5 game blocks) 8 new players in. Huge expectations from huge fanbase. Extra games. New signings being injured/nervous/young/not up to scratch. The world cup ending so soon to start of season. I'm sure there are more things you could add to that.

Having said that, Gerrard needs to be moved or rotated, at least until the return of Sturridge. I could handle a 1 infront of the defence if it was Lucas, but would prefer a two. Maybe a combination of Can/Allen/Henderson, basically a partnership and pivot that is energetic, good on ball, determined, box to box. Reasoning for that, is it might provide a bit of light relief and a shield for our defence, which has taken an almighty shafting this season so far. Protect them, maybe - they relax, Mignolet doesn't get tested as much.

This team will improve once Sturridge is back. Lets imagine we get him fully fit. If he stayed like that until the end of the season, I'd still feel comfortable of challenging for the top four. His presence gives opposition defences a quick moving, adaptable, skillful, ruthless finisher to contend with. One who can pull wide right or left and be a threat. Run in behind. Drop deep. If we partnered a fit, firing Sturridge with a settled, confident Balotelli or Lambert - we'd have a pretty good strikeforce.

Any combination that includes 2 of Sterling/Coutinho/Lallana and one other - Markovic/Suso I'd be pretty comfortable with for about half the teams in the league.

I think he's made mistakes with team selection - Johnson doesn't deserve his spot on the pitch - both Manquillo & Moreno have superior claim to it, I'd argue Enrique too. Kolo & Lucas deserved to retain their spots after the Real Madrid away.

Simply though, if he disagrees with me, who's arsed. I'm sat on my arse behind a computer.

Back the manager.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 12:30:30 am by wige »

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2014, 12:00:30 am »
I've a new opinion: Rodgers isn't being stubborn, he's just going all in to make his approach to football, his larger plan for LFC, work.

Last season, he set it aside to play the SAS Diamond and the attacking verve and fantastic results made it a worthwhile detour.

This season, and after 24 months working on elements of his passing-posession footballing philosophy in training and in matches, he wants to start playing his football.

He didn't replace Suarez with another striker like him. He bought Lambert and Markovic and Lallana who all fit with his ideas: a slower game, in control, dominating the ball.

Only somehow the squad has forgotten how to pass and receive the ball. And worse are being bullied off it.

Was Palace Rodgers trying to get his best passers on the pitch to try again (Coutinho, Lallana, Gerrard, Allen)?

But we are incapable of holding the ball in a useful let alone dangerous manner, and the squad is underperforming massively here. The back four and Migs draw the most attention with their poor misplaced passes, etc, but its systemic and not individual. And Gerrard. If we can get our passing and movement working Gerrard can actually play the role Rodgers has set him out to do (controller, not DM), too, and we won't be saying he's shit and at fault for everything wrong.

I hope Rodgers gets them playing. We are no Barca but are nowhere near playing our level right now. Rodgers is all in and I guess we have to put our chips with his.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 12:08:37 am by GregCharrua »

Offline irish musicman

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2014, 12:28:41 am »
I've a new opinion: Rodgers isn't being stubborn, he's just going all in to make his approach to football, his larger plan for LFC, work.

Last season, he set it aside to play the SAS Diamond and the attacking verve and fantastic results made it a worthwhile detour.

This season, and after 24 months working on elements of his passing-posession footballing philosophy in training and in matches, he wants to start playing his football.

He didn't replace Suarez with another striker like him. He bought Lambert and Markovic and Lallana who all fit with his ideas: a slower game, in control, dominating the ball.

Only somehow the squad has forgotten how to pass and receive the ball. And worse are being bullied off it.

Was Palace Rodgers trying to get his best passers on the pitch to try again (Coutinho, Lallana, Gerrard, Allen)?

But we are incapable of holding the ball in a useful let alone dangerous manner, and the squad is underperforming massively here. The back four and Migs draw the most attention with their poor misplaced passes, etc, but its systemic and not individual. And Gerrard. If we can get our passing and movement working Gerrard can actually play the role Rodgers has set him out to do (controller, not DM), too, and we won't be saying he's shit and at fault for everything wrong.

I hope Rodgers gets them playing. We are no Barca but are nowhere near playing our level right now. Rodgers is all in and I guess we have to put our chips with his.
Only one problem with all this. The guy who is probably our best pass and move player can't get on the bench, nevermind in the first 11.

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2014, 12:34:11 am »
Only one problem with all this. The guy who is probably our best pass and move player can't get on the bench, nevermind in the first 11.

I presume you're speaking of Lucas, and I'd agree. If I have criticism its that he doesn't set Gerrard aside for Lucas now and allow the team to get better on the ball while being a bit more shored up in defense.

Offline Redwhiteandnotblue

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2014, 12:38:53 am »
Am I alone in thinking that, regardless of the position he's playing and the rights and wrongs of playing him at the base of the diamond, Stevie looks less and less like a captain? In the past, his captaincy has lacked a vocal element on the pitch to some extent, but that has always been made up for by the way that he has led by example on the pitch, set the example for effort and application and quite frequently pulled more than one rabbit out of his metaphorical hat.

This season, I can't see anything to suggest that he is leading this side in anything but name. Whether it is the after-effects of the disappointment of May or the way that England failed so miserably under his captaincy at the World Cup, I don't know. Whether the other players have lost respect for him or something more inward looking, I don't know either. But I do know that we suddenly looked like a team with a rudder without him against Madrid (small sample size, I accept). The manager is continuing to support him in public. However, that Brendan feels that he has to make such pronouncements to the press, to my mind, tells you all you need to know about the situation. Relinquishing the captaincy doesn't mean he has to retire or leave. Sami gave up the captaincy to Stevie under Gerard Houllier and played for another six years here; it's time for Stevie to make that decision or for Brendan to make it for him. The most ridiculous thing though is that his obvious replacement is now busy playing for Brondby IF and went there for a pittance in modern footballing terms.

Another thought is that I don't know why people are saying that Brendan "has had time during the international break..." when most of the players have been away with their international sides. Thinking time, yes. Training time with the players, no.

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2014, 04:25:53 am »
What are you expecting? A team to play sublime football with unfit, terrible players?

And we actually played a lot of our good football in a 4-3-3. Tottenham away, Arsenal at home, Everton at home - all 4-3-3

What do all of those great 433 performances have in common, though? (Serious question, do they have anything in common, other than being 433).

And what I meant was that we had Suarez, Sturridge and Sterling all healthy, available, and in form at the same time when we played our most exciting football.
Ludi Circenses!

Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2014, 05:31:50 am »
What can a say about a match I feel like I've seen before several times.. I'm not going to lie, I'm seriously starting to doubt Rodger's ability as our manager.

Newcastle, Villa, West Ham and Palace 4 games we haven't earned so much as a point against this season. All 4 sides managers would of gladfully told the press before the game that they intend on playing on the counter and hope to take their oppurtunity's should they come along. So it's clear how each is going to play, it's clear to how they'll set up so a good manager with a side of much superior ability should be able to at least gain points in a few of these games, right?

In the pre game thread I mentioned how Palace would play on the counter and I'd be very surprised if we didn't play a 4-2-3-1 as a 4-3-3 is more suited to pressing teams rather than a 4-2-3-1 which suits breaking up counter's by your two dm's/cm's playing across the lines. You have energetic options like Can and Henderson on the bench, Lucas who is excellent defensively and made for breaking up counter attack's but you still choose Gerrard over all? Offensively against Palace and with Lambert up front how effective was he really going to be? Gerrard is only effective as Regista when you have runner's and space in behind for him to hit diagonal's, Palace were never going to afford us that and bar Sterling we hadn't got the movement anyhow. Yet Rodger's a debatable world class manager doesn't see this or choose's not to and persists with Gerrard.

Allen I can understand to a degree, he puts in a shift even if he's more suited to pressing and ball retention (neither effective against a side that sit so deep) and he did well. With his height though and the options we have in midfield I was surprised to see he got the nod.

I suggested a 4-2-3-1 in the pre game thread with Lucas and Can in midfield. Two players who can break up play, are tidy in possession and offer a physical presence against a side who clearly use their physical attributes to their advantage. They might lack the ball retention of Allen or the set pieces of Gerrard but both would have tightened up our midfield and defence massively.

Ahead of them then Lallana, Sterling, Coutinho and Lambert along with our full backs could all play their attacking game knowing they have that kind of protection behind them. If we fail to score, we can always bring on Gerrard or Allen in the hope they can help nick us a goal with their attacking attributes.

This all seem's like a massive dig at Gerrard and to an extent Allen. In fact though it's the opposite, I'm happy to have both players. I'm happy we have Lovren, Balotelli and any other scapegoat the fans have created this season. Eventually people need to realise it's the system thats the problem and the man with sole resposnsibility for that is Rodgers.

I'm not suggesting we sack him or anything like that, I am however having serious doubts about his ability as a manager. Is his persistence with playing a system that suits Gerrard but leaves us open for any average counter attacking side to embarrass us the only problem? If Gerrard retires/leaves at the end of the season as I'd expect will that mean a change in system and can Rodgers finally get a result against Chelsea, Paul Lambert or any of the other bogey teams who see him coming  a mile away tactically?

If anyone think's Sturridge is the sole reason we've been doing so badly also they are deluded, in fact even with Suarez back the problems would be still clear to see and we're there last season we just had two strikers among the top 5 in the world last season. Team's were also naive and afforded us space in behind, we don't get that anymore and when we didn't last season we struggled also even with the SAS (and Sterling).

We've all hoped to see change, but when? Will Rodgers persist til Sturridge comes back and hopes he can single handidly out score what our defence are conceding? Does he wait til Gerrard retires or leaves at the end of the season? I can understand Brendan believing in a system that had us within a slip of a Premier League title but with more than one game a week now (pressing isnt as effective), teams sitting deeper (sides know how to beat us a la Mourinho) and Sturridge and Suarez both effectively gone a system that depend's primarily on the 3 things I've mentioned above is no longer suited to this side.

If we sign another Suarez (not just Origi), a hybrid of Gerrard and Makelele, CM's and AM's that can press like Henderson twice a week for 90mins a game and keep Sturridge injury free then maybe that's the correct system for us. For now though it seem's as if it's in place for Gerrard and coincidentally it's the player who it's doing the most damage to.
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Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2014, 05:37:27 am »
What do all of those great 433 performances have in common, though? (Serious question, do they have anything in common, other than being 433).

And what I meant was that we had Suarez, Sturridge and Sterling all healthy, available, and in form at the same time when we played our most exciting football.

What they have in common (the 3 sides he's mentioned Spurs, Everton and Arsenal) is the playing style of the opposition. All sides who want to pass the ball and control the game but in honesty aren't all that good at it (certainly not to the Barcelona level clubs aspire to get to). In a 4-3-3 we can get at them with players like Allen, Henderson, Sterling, Coutinho and Lallana through our pressing ability.

Team's that sit deep and want to play on the counter though requires a different type of system and a different type of player. Fortunately we have effective options in the squad to play such a role but the persistence on the same system means they don't get game time.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 05:44:11 am by ShayGuevara »
"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life" Bill Shankly

Offline Gerrard#1

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2014, 06:25:20 am »
I recall Sterling, Coutinho and Allen were all beaten by the same player in the lead up to their first goal. Can't help to think Can or Lucas would've done better. Our midfield was too lightweight.
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Offline plskikme

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2014, 09:41:09 am »
I'd like to add to Carra's thought on Coutinho getting too deep or attracted to the ball on MNF.



This was after Lallana came out of the box to help with play. After the initial ball fails, we just don't have enough presence in the box, either as targets, running into space or simply making decoy runs.

A few seconds later, again Coutinho and Sterling checked back to try and receive the ball despite Gerrard already being in prime position to play it to them in and around the box. That's despite the fact Allen is already stood right next to Gerrard should he need to recycle possession. Granted, Sterling did make a late run when he saw Gerrard shift the ball (which he then either shot or tried to pick out Lambert), but an earlier run could have seen him get free at the back post.


I don't know if Coutinho is instructed to look actively for the ball or he simply feels he can't rely on his teammates to feed it to him in dangerous positions but it exacerbates the problem we have up front despite his occasional sparks when he beats more men than should be humanly possible. Like Jamie said, imagine Coutinho receiving and turning in the vast land between the centrebacks in the latter picture! We should aim to get him there as much as possible even if it fails on most occasions.

P.S I know images aren't always the best way to discuss tactics but this particular play really stood out for me even in real time when I saw the absence of yellow shirts or even forward runs in the first picture.

Offline plskikme

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2014, 09:46:35 am »
I recall Sterling, Coutinho and Allen were all beaten by the same player in the lead up to their first goal. Can't help to think Can or Lucas would've done better. Our midfield was too lightweight.

That reasoning, Gerrard's seeming inclusion and my above post suggest to me we should go with Lucas, Can holding with Gerrard, Coutinho and Lallana ahead for Ludogerets. I don't think we've battled enough to earned the right to pass it around in the opposition half. Hopefully Stevie can show more strength in our advanced midfield position and turn things around for us since he's not gonna be dropped any time soon.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 09:48:09 am by plskikme »

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2014, 09:48:19 am »
That reasoning, Gerrard's seeming inclusion and my above post suggest to me we should go with Lucas, Can holding with Gerrard, Coutinho and Lallana ahead for Ludogerets. I don't think we've battled enough to earnt the right to pass it around their defence. Hopefully Stevie can show more strength in our advanced midfield position and turn things around for us since he's not gonna be dropped any time soon.

I like the idea of Sterling not being an automatic starter in favour of Coutinho and Lallana too

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Round Table - Palace v Liverpool
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2014, 09:54:50 am »
For me it`s not a big problem if Coutinho drops deep - because he`s the best through-baller we have - but if he does so then Sterling and Lallana in particular have to make the runs or threaten to make the runs into that vacated space. We saw something similar with Barca and their false 9 where Messi drops deep but then you have Villa and Pedro making good runs into that empty space , latching onto through balls and scoring easily.

Either way it`s not orchestrated or practiced on enough because games are always the reflection of the work that goes on in training. Unfortunately we play too many games and don`t get to spend much quality time on the training ground so maybe that`s why we look a bit clueless at times in the final third.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 09:56:41 am by SerbianScouser »