Author Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!  (Read 969617 times)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15280 on: February 23, 2024, 11:56:31 pm »
Interesting. His approach is very similar to Mearsheimer too. It's the Kissinger school of international politics. Big imperialist power blocs coming to 'mutual understanding' in order to crush smaller independent nations who have got all emotionally wound up by boring stuff like 'sovereignty' and 'human rights'.
Why is the Guardian providing Anatol Lieven a platform to shill for Putin?
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15281 on: February 24, 2024, 12:01:01 am »
Why is the Guardian providing Anatol Lieven a platform to shill for Putin?

I hope because it is being true to its traditions and allowing its readers the benefit of hearing all sides of the argument. I don't believe the paper is where it was it a few years back when Seumas Milne was on its editorial staff and the paper became a genuine home for all sorts of insane ideas and apologetics.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15282 on: February 24, 2024, 12:16:49 am »
I hope because it is being true to its traditions and allowing its readers the benefit of hearing all sides of the argument. I don't believe the paper is where it was it a few years back when Seumas Milne was on its editorial staff and the paper became a genuine home for all sorts of insane ideas and apologetics.
But how many Guardian readers would know that Anatol Lieven is a member of the Valdai Discussion Club or what this means? The Guardian do not even make mention of his membership in his profile.

Here's a recent article about the Club and Putin. The Bell is operated by three Russians sacked from Russian outlets due to pressure from the Kremlin in 2017. Subsequently, in 2022, the Bell and its founders and have been designated as 'foreign agents' by the Russian authorities and its website blocked within Russia. Anyway...

https://en.thebell.io/valdais-fall-from-relevance/

https://en.thebell.io/about/
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15283 on: February 24, 2024, 01:18:47 am »
Kissingers Realpolitik has never gone away, those in favour will say Cuba and Turkey should'nt of got the nukes which in the end neither of then did. And of those against it, you'd be hard pressed to find any of them in the US or UK who'd want Mexico or Eire having Russian or Chinese nukes based in either of those countries.
And lets be honest neither the US or UK would allow that...Sovereignty be damned.
 
I'd be interested to hear from anyone on here who thinks Cuba & Turkey should of got the nukes or Eire or Mexico should get them. Should they ever choose to exercise their sovereignty and go down that route...
 

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15285 on: February 24, 2024, 09:40:02 am »
Kissingers Realpolitik has never gone away, those in favour will say Cuba and Turkey should'nt of got the nukes which in the end neither of then did. And of those against it, you'd be hard pressed to find any of them in the US or UK who'd want Mexico or Eire having Russian or Chinese nukes based in either of those countries.
And lets be honest neither the US or UK would allow that...Sovereignty be damned.
 
I'd be interested to hear from anyone on here who thinks Cuba & Turkey should of got the nukes or Eire or Mexico should get them. Should they ever choose to exercise their sovereignty and go down that route...
 
This sounds like a really interesting thread you could start.

Meanwhile, we are entering the third year of the Russian invasion (and the ninth year of the illegal annexation of Crimea) - the biggest European war since the Nazis invaded Poland. It's astonishing to me that there has not yet been a general mobilisation in the country. One could argue that there are sufficient volunteers and they don't need conscription. But you wonder how much longer this will be the case.
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Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15286 on: February 24, 2024, 11:34:39 am »
This sounds like a really interesting thread you could start.

Meanwhile, we are entering the third year of the Russian invasion (and the ninth year of the illegal annexation of Crimea) - the biggest European war since the Nazis invaded Poland. It's astonishing to me that there has not yet been a general mobilisation in the country. One could argue that there are sufficient volunteers and they don't need conscription. But you wonder how much longer this will be the case.

Do you mean a general mobilisation in Ukraine?

This article gives a good explanation of some of the reasons and competing pressures between military needs and that of the civilian government: https://kyivindependent.com/move-to-expand-mobilization-brings-ukrainian-society-face-to-face-with-immense-pressure-of-war/

From what I understand, they don`t have the capacity or resources to do that. It means not only arming and training hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of new recruits, but it also means dragging those recruits away from other economically productive (and tax paying) activities which are needed to fuel the war effort. In that article Zelenskiy says it takes six civilian taxpayers to pay for one fighter.

And at the end of it all, a recruit with a couple of months training at most goes on to become "meat" in the fucked up mix of trench warfare conditions with 21st century precision-and-drone-guided munitions. In regards to volunteers, apparently they have largely dried up in anything like the scale needed, which is unsurprising considering the ongoing human costs of the war. At this stage, the majority of soldiers are already mobilized recruits.

Interestingly, and to give some idea of Ukraine's committment to democracy and constitutional rule, that article mentions that Ukraine's civilian gvoernment is still, even at this stage, unwilling to impelement policies that might be deemed too draconian. At some point that will probably have to bow to necessity.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2024, 11:36:38 am by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline jambutty

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15288 on: February 24, 2024, 02:03:38 pm »
Do you mean a general mobilisation in Ukraine?

This article gives a good explanation of some of the reasons and competing pressures between military needs and that of the civilian government: https://kyivindependent.com/move-to-expand-mobilization-brings-ukrainian-society-face-to-face-with-immense-pressure-of-war/

From what I understand, they don`t have the capacity or resources to do that. It means not only arming and training hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of new recruits, but it also means dragging those recruits away from other economically productive (and tax paying) activities which are needed to fuel the war effort. In that article Zelenskiy says it takes six civilian taxpayers to pay for one fighter.

And at the end of it all, a recruit with a couple of months training at most goes on to become "meat" in the fucked up mix of trench warfare conditions with 21st century precision-and-drone-guided munitions. In regards to volunteers, apparently they have largely dried up in anything like the scale needed, which is unsurprising considering the ongoing human costs of the war. At this stage, the majority of soldiers are already mobilized recruits.

Interestingly, and to give some idea of Ukraine's committment to democracy and constitutional rule, that article mentions that Ukraine's civilian gvoernment is still, even at this stage, unwilling to impelement policies that might be deemed too draconian. At some point that will probably have to bow to necessity.

Interesting. I did go to an event yesterday hosted by Timothy Garton Ash and sponsored by the Ukrainian society in Oxford. It was absolutely brilliant, not least because both the panel and the majority of the audience were so well informed. The Ukrainians there - the majority - were evenly split on whether the government should introduce conscription. There was much talk of the weird age-mix of the current fighting forces with lots of young men and quite a disproportionate amount of older men fighting. Inevitably the 22-35 age bracket was generally unrepresented - young families etc, starting out on married life.

One panellist thought that history showed that a war of this kind could not be won without conscription. Another believed that conscription might hugely reduce the popularity of the government and therefore wasn't a risk worth taking. All - of course - believed that the main problem was lack of ammo.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15289 on: February 24, 2024, 09:17:27 pm »
Considering Russia is now using Iranian and North Korean hardware the world has to really get it's finger out of it's ass and get proper aid to Ukraine.

They should start by releasing all the frozen Russian assets to purchase as much as needed, you'd be hard pressed to find a Russian billionaire that hasn't got that from dodgy links to Putin and exploiting normal Russians.



Would turn the war significantly.
Why's Belgium so far out on front? EU headquarters?
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15290 on: February 26, 2024, 04:11:02 pm »
This sounds like a really interesting thread you could start.
Not really worthy of thread is it ? My question is by design an attempt to introduce a 360 degree view of the conflict and introduce context. Something I've found in real life by people who actually have blood in the game and have been organising and paying for aid convoys,tents, blankets, clothing, medical etc (but I'm sure if anyone wants to fight the good fight... That can be organised and paid for too.)
But that context appears at times to be somewhat lacking on here, which by the very nature of a football forum is understandable.
We tend to view things through a binary, black and white way of thinking but in real life it's not good...It leads to self radicalization.

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15291 on: February 26, 2024, 04:26:17 pm »
Hungary's parliament have just voted in favour to ratify Sweden's accession to NATO.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15292 on: February 26, 2024, 05:08:33 pm »
Hungary's parliament have just voted in favour to ratify Sweden's accession to NATO.

About damn time, I hope that we strong armed the bastard. Ratify or you're on your own.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15293 on: February 26, 2024, 05:14:19 pm »
Hungary's parliament have just voted in favour to ratify Sweden's accession to NATO.


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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15294 on: February 26, 2024, 05:14:46 pm »
Why's Belgium so far out on front? EU headquarters?
Also, on this, why is the US' amount so comparatively tiny?
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15295 on: February 26, 2024, 10:38:23 pm »
Poland gives Russia a history lesson at the UN.

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1761467698855178556

Cool guy!
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15298 on: February 27, 2024, 10:19:54 am »
Also, on this, why is the US' amount so comparatively tiny?
I was guessing the Russian billionaires don't trust the Americans? Maybe harder for them to travel there? Less opportunities to launder money? Scared of getting shot?  Pure guesses to be fair.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15299 on: February 27, 2024, 10:26:10 am »
Poland gives Russia a history lesson at the UN.

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1761467698855178556

Cool guy!

Anne Applelbaum's husband. Great to see him back in power.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15300 on: February 27, 2024, 10:33:29 am »
Oh - very good!
Superb.

It's kind of interesting lads what Putin's ignorant - and deliberately misleading - forays into 'history' have done. They have accidentally opened up pieces of real history that the West, as well as Russia, has found it convenient to forget for several generations. The most obvious, which Sikorski refers to in that wonderful clip, is the Nazi-Soviet alliance of 1939-41 which plunged the world into war in September 1939. Two brutish totalitarian systems - Nazism and Communism - combined to invade and partition Poland. (One could have added that the German Communist party made a similar alliance with Hitler in 1931-2 in order to throw the Socialist administration out of Berlin and Prussia). Putin, of course, in his long interview with that American cocksucker floated the hilarious thesis that Poland had provoked Hitler to invade.

The other piece of history that the Russians hate to be reminded of is their lousy military record. Sikorski in his own urbane way dropped this into the conversation too - the serial defeats of Russian arms at the hands of the British, French, Japanese, Germans, Poles and Afghans. It doesn't mean much in the current war perhaps but it's exactly the thing that Putin's fragile ego can't bear to hear. "You nearly always run away in the end Ivan".
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15301 on: February 27, 2024, 10:34:28 am »
Anne Applelbaum's husband. Great to see him back in power.

Absolutely.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15302 on: February 27, 2024, 03:55:16 pm »
It's kind of interesting lads what Putin's ignorant - and deliberately misleading - forays into 'history' have done. They have accidentally opened up pieces of real history that the West, as well as Russia, has found it convenient to forget for several generations. The most obvious, which Sikorski refers to in that wonderful clip, is the Nazi-Soviet alliance of 1939-41 which plunged the world into war in September 1939. Two brutish totalitarian systems - Nazism and Communism - combined to invade and partition Poland. (One could have added that the German Communist party made a similar alliance with Hitler in 1931-2 in order to throw the Socialist administration out of Berlin and Prussia). Putin, of course, in his long interview with that American cocksucker floated the hilarious thesis that Poland had provoked Hitler to invade.

The other piece of history that the Russians hate to be reminded of is their lousy military record. Sikorski in his own urbane way dropped this into the conversation too - the serial defeats of Russian arms at the hands of the British, French, Japanese, Germans, Poles and Afghans. It doesn't mean much in the current war perhaps but it's exactly the thing that Putin's fragile ego can't bear to hear. "You nearly always run away in the end Ivan".

You of all people are probably aware of the history of Russia’s colonialism, Yorky. For everyone else keen to increase your understanding of the formation of Russia’s ‘empire’, I urge you to listen to Tim Whewell’s R4 piece this morning. It’s a fascinating and informative exercise, and goes a long way to explain the mindset of many Russians who have (my analogy) like U.S equivalents who fall for Trump’s MAGA populism, failed to see the wood for the trees:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001wq4c?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15303 on: February 27, 2024, 04:04:51 pm »
You of all people are probably aware of the history of Russia’s colonialism, Yorky. For everyone else keen to increase your understanding of the formation of Russia’s ‘empire’, I urge you to listen to Tim Whewell’s R4 piece this morning. It’s a fascinating and informative exercise, and goes a long way to explain the mindset of many Russians who have (my analogy) like U.S equivalents who fall for Trump’s MAGA populism, failed to see the wood for the trees:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001wq4c?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Thanks muchly! Will give that a whirl.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15304 on: February 27, 2024, 05:36:49 pm »
Anything that's happening the last few weeks with the Russians gaining more and more ground isn't surprising to anyone who's been shouting about the warning signs for months now. Still maybe they are all Putinbots or something right.

When in the name of christ are western leaders going to wake up and tackle the Moscow dwarf head on.  :no
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15305 on: February 27, 2024, 06:00:55 pm »


When in the name of christ are western leaders going to wake up and tackle the Moscow dwarf head on.  :no


Maybe when time can be turned back before the atom was split, or something.

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15306 on: February 27, 2024, 09:08:05 pm »
Another dissident, Oleg Orlov, sent to prison for the crime of......."discrediting the army".

With words presumably.

https://twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/1762429748876054722
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15307 on: February 28, 2024, 09:37:10 am »
Interesting. I did go to an event yesterday hosted by Timothy Garton Ash and sponsored by the Ukrainian society in Oxford. It was absolutely brilliant, not least because both the panel and the majority of the audience were so well informed. The Ukrainians there - the majority - were evenly split on whether the government should introduce conscription. There was much talk of the weird age-mix of the current fighting forces with lots of young men and quite a disproportionate amount of older men fighting. Inevitably the 22-35 age bracket was generally unrepresented - young families etc, starting out on married life.

One panellist thought that history showed that a war of this kind could not be won without conscription. Another believed that conscription might hugely reduce the popularity of the government and therefore wasn't a risk worth taking. All - of course - believed that the main problem was lack of ammo.

Sounds like a really interesting event, and certainly no easy options.


Another dissident, Oleg Orlov, sent to prison for the crime of......."discrediting the army".

With words presumably.

https://twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/1762429748876054722

The brass balls on him to go in there smiling, knowing Putin has no compunction about having people killed who've hurt his feelings.

You of all people are probably aware of the history of Russia’s colonialism, Yorky. For everyone else keen to increase your understanding of the formation of Russia’s ‘empire’, I urge you to listen to Tim Whewell’s R4 piece this morning. It’s a fascinating and informative exercise, and goes a long way to explain the mindset of many Russians who have (my analogy) like U.S equivalents who fall for Trump’s MAGA populism, failed to see the wood for the trees:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001wq4c?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

I'll definitely give that a listen. There was a book I finished reading a couple of months back that I saw recommended on here - "The Road To Unfreedom" by Timothy Snyder. It was absolutely fascinating and put shot to any illusions that this war is anything but existential.

Another one I'd recommend to anyone who wants an insight into the Soviet and later Russia mindset more generally, is "Second Hand Time" by Svetlana Alexievich. Some absolutely incredible stories in there, reflecting both a lot of suffering and a lot of nostalgia (sometimes at the same time!). But one of the big things that shines through a high proportion of the stories is the obsession with Russian "Greatness" as a way to  counteract and justify experiences of suffering.

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15308 on: February 28, 2024, 09:43:51 am »

I'll definitely give that a listen. There was a book I finished reading a couple of months back that I saw recommended on here - "The Road To Unfreedom" by Timothy Snyder. It was absolutely fascinating and put shot to any illusions that this war is anything but existential.

Another one I'd recommend to anyone who wants an insight into the Soviet and later Russia mindset more generally, is "Second Hand Time" by Svetlana Alexievich. Some absolutely incredible stories in there, reflecting both a lot of suffering and a lot of nostalgia (sometimes at the same time!). But one of the big things that shines through a high proportion of the stories is the obsession with Russian "Greatness" as a way to  counteract and justify experiences of suffering.

You have named two of the best books I've read in the last few years, Snyder is a superb authority on all things Ukraine (and Belarus and Russia) and is a brilliant mind. But 'Second Hand Time' - like everything SA writes - is a work of great literature.

I often recommend another of her books about Russian soldiers (and families) who went through the Soviet-Afghanistan war ('Boys in Zinc'). Also mind-blowing. You get a sense of what Russia's conscripted soldiers are probably going through now when you read it (and what is still to come). It's chilling.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 09:48:10 am by Yorkykopite »
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15309 on: February 28, 2024, 09:47:11 am »
Another one I'd recommend to anyone who wants an insight into the Soviet and later Russia mindset more generally, is "Second Hand Time" by Svetlana Alexievich. Some absolutely incredible stories in there, reflecting both a lot of suffering and a lot of nostalgia (sometimes at the same time!). But one of the big things that shines through a high proportion of the stories is the obsession with Russian "Greatness" as a way to  counteract and justify experiences of suffering.
Quite a lot of that in the UK too. How else can we explain how many hang on to Brexit, continue to bang on about UK having its shackles removed, and even the 'glory days' of the British Empire. An entitled and all-consuming delusional belief in British greatness.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15310 on: February 28, 2024, 09:48:38 am »
I'll definitely give that a listen. There was a book I finished reading a couple of months back that I saw recommended on here - "The Road To Unfreedom" by Timothy Snyder. It was absolutely fascinating and put shot to any illusions that this war is anything but existential.

Another one I'd recommend to anyone who wants an insight into the Soviet and later Russia mindset more generally, is "Second Hand Time" by Svetlana Alexievich. Some absolutely incredible stories in there, reflecting both a lot of suffering and a lot of nostalgia (sometimes at the same time!). But one of the big things that shines through a high proportion of the stories is the obsession with Russian "Greatness" as a way to  counteract and justify experiences of suffering.
You have named two of the best books I've read in the last few years, Snyder is a superb authority on all things Ukraine (and Belarus and Russia) and is a brilliant mind. But 'Second Hand Time' - like everything SA writes - is a work of great literature.
Between the pair of you, you have convinced me to purchase one or both of those books.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15311 on: February 28, 2024, 09:53:47 am »
Quite a lot of that in the UK too. How else can we explain how many hang on to Brexit, continue to bang on about UK having its shackles removed, and even the 'glory days' of the British Empire. An entitled and all-consuming delusional belief in British greatness.

I think that's right. But it's counterbalanced by genuine scrutiny of, and remorse about, Britain's past. Plus we have free enquiry and are capable of great acts of scholarship without the State laying down what we have to believe. Anti-racism, for example, is one of the most successful ideologies in the UK in the last 50 years. And it has certainly affected our ordinary historical understanding.

I have no doubt that there are those on the Far Right of British politics (in lunatic fringe parties like Reform and the Conservative Party) who would like to dictate what Britons believe about their past and would rather the National Trust was gagged completely than it should even mention slavery. Given the chance they'd go full Putin. But they are hugely outnumbered.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15312 on: February 28, 2024, 10:01:27 am »
Another dissident, Oleg Orlov, sent to prison for the crime of......."discrediting the army".

With words presumably.

https://twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/1762429748876054722

How many guards do they need to lead a 70 year old man down a corridor? Pathetic.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15313 on: February 28, 2024, 10:10:43 am »
I think that's right. But it's counterbalanced by genuine scrutiny of, and remorse about, Britain's past. Plus we have free enquiry and are capable of great acts of scholarship without the State laying down what we have to believe. Anti-racism, for example, is one of the most successful ideologies in the UK in the last 50 years. And it has certainly affected our ordinary historical understanding.
Yes. Fortunately, the UK population is generally more conservative rather than fascist in nature.* This is partly why voters have been able to pull away from going full-on fascist (which is where too many of Tory MPs seem quite happy as an end destination for the UK), and reverse course. The second reason for a reversal by voters being the total and unadulterated incompetence the Tory Government, especially since Brexit. Their total failure in all aspects of managing a state, in the round, might be see as fortunate.

* Though, I think they were sleepwalking there given that the Tories were voted back in only four years ago, and with a thumping majority.
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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15314 on: February 28, 2024, 10:17:45 am »
When in the name of christ are western leaders going to wake up and tackle the Moscow dwarf head on.  :no
"In the name of Christ" here we go  ::)
Hopefully sometime after you've left school and a few weeks before Wesstern Russia  Europe and the UK are burned to a crisp, that's my guess anyway.

So you want the UK to go to war with Russia ? How do you think that will play out  ?

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15315 on: February 28, 2024, 10:20:39 am »
Between the pair of you, you have convinced me to purchase one or both of those books.

I'm re-reading "the road to unfreedom ". It's an incredible piece of work. 

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Re: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!
« Reply #15316 on: February 28, 2024, 10:36:12 am »
I'm re-reading "the road to unfreedom ". It's an incredible piece of work.
Cheers for the additional recommendation.
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Alexei Navalny's mother, Lyudmila Ivanovna, bids farewell to her son at his memorial service.

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Bravery.

The hope is that Navalny will not go away - that his name will become more prominent over the years, not less.
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Ukrainian pilots are into combat training.. Wonder if they are practicing on Su35s :D.. Won't be far away from combat, big news really, especially with Russia losing planes daily, they are one of the hardest things for Russian to replace properly.