Author Topic: Where's the meritocracy in trust?  (Read 5616 times)

Offline -Daws-

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Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« on: November 12, 2014, 06:32:45 pm »
Meritocracy - ‘Government or the holding of power by people selected on the basis of their ability’.

A selection process has been mis-sold to us. Since the arrival of FSG and Brendan Rodgers, the man they plucked from a pool of talent to paint their vision and direct this football club forward in imaginative and sustainable ways, we have been told of the intrinsic worth of a meritocracy. From bottom to top we have been led to believe that this is the philosophy that will remain a constant throughout the club on all levels at every floor. From a 17 year old Raheem Sterling gaining his full first team debut after numerous emphatic displays at younger age levels, to the £200,000pw contract afforded for Luis Suarez, one of the ingenious talents in the world and of this generation leading from the front with tenacity, flair and ruthlessness. Brendan himself was offered a new and improved contract towards the end of a scintillating title charge last season, and justifiably so.

Of course this makes sense. It’s also noteworthy that our manager has previously been lauded for his efforts and ability to get the best out of younger players. The way he speaks, the confidence he cradles these players in has thus far, been exemplary to any youth coach and manager in the game. We have seen Sterling, Henderson, Coutinho and Sturridge all show a steep development curve during his tenure on the way to exploiting their full potential which is still to come. Luis Suarez as well, although older and more experienced upon his arrival at the club, grew into the talent I previously cited from an inconsistent often enigmatic player. It’s a little odd that I am bringing the lack of meritocracy up as a flaw given the previous examples, but here we are in December and I haven’t seen an ounce of meritocracy this season. Instead the buzz word is who Brendan ‘trusts’.

Trust – ‘Firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of someone or something’.

Naturally, I’m not here to insult any body’s intelligence by pointing out the definition of trust and meritocracy, I’m more poised to question the balance at work between these two forces. Given trust is something earned over a period of time and meritocracy based more relevantly on recent events. Meritocracy has to be adhered to for trust to evolve. One cannot truly exist without the other. Like for time to exist there must be space, and vice versa.

There is merit in selecting players based on how much you trust them to perform. Jordan Henderson is an apt example of a player that Brendan trusts. Jordan is a very canny player in my opinion and has shown his adaptability playing in a variety of positions and roles with alternating instructions and performed each admirably. Rodgers knows that although Henderson is best in a midfield three, he can play him on the left of a 442 and tell him to protect the full back because the opposition are particularly effective down that side. The same way he can ask him to go and be Stevie’s legs in a midfield duo, or play as a number #10 and get into the box and run beyond the forward with regularity. Stevie had a similar if superior skill-set and that’s why so many managers trusted and wanted him in their teams.

I have no issue with Brendan trusting certain players in the way he trusts Henderson, or Allen for that matter. They are often trusted in one of two ways; to go out and perform a less familiar role with aptitude, or as in Joe’s situation, a specific job to be done at a very high standard. In Allen’s case it is ability to keep the ball under pressure, make himself available and make life difficult for the opposition with his ball winning skills. I wouldn’t, for instance trust Allen to come on and offer a threat from the right of midfield, whereas with Henderson’s top speed and crossing ability, I’d consider him and option. He may not be a top choice like Sterling for this role, but if he was asked to get beyond the full back and provide quality he would do it. Joe by a similar token, you would expect to go out  keep the ball at a high level of ability.

It’s also of note, that these are young players with scope for improvement. The more trust Brendan places in them, the better it will be for their confidence, experience and overall capabilities. To trust is to nurture talent. Sakho is an example of a player Brendan should show a similar sort of trust in. The boy is a leader, he has ability and the problems surrounding him have in the main been exactly that, surrounding him, not because of him. This is where my gripe starts to flare. I appreciate that Sakho is an example that could be arguable due to injuries, but most would say that he has been dropped somewhat unnecessarily at times. Usually, it’s coincided with the return of Daniel Agger, and more recently Martin Skrtel.

So here’s the anomaly. In the January or Brendan’s first season, Martin Skrtel was dropped for the aging Jamie Carragher. Skrtel had found adapting to the higher line Brendan was trying to employ and develop problematic. The veteran came in and as a result we dropped the backline, purchase a player to play between the lines in Phil and a striker to run beyond them in Sturridge. Our form took a considerable upturn, our play became more dynamic and we were more organised, if considerably deeper in defence as Brendan tweaked his system to compensate for the inclusion of Carra and with the arrival of a more direct threat in Sturridge, slotting our new little playmaker in between the lines. 

Needless to say it worked. It was the first real sign of Brendan’s tactical flexibility in adapting the system to suit the better players he available to play it. After 6 months of tight, possession based football where we often left ourselves exposed in behind with the high line, we evolved into playing deeper, more on the counter attack and usually at a canter. It begged the question at the time as to whether Brendan had totally abandoned his death by football philosophy in favour of a more dynamic, tempo based game where we would react and swerve a punch and use the momentum and gaps created to counter punch. It has, generally speaking, been a more effective tactic in the premier league than anything else, but that’s a different kettle of crabs.

The point I’ve failed to make is, that Carragher came into the side because Rodgers trusted him to be vocal, command the backline with a degree of confidence and competency and that was something he didn’t really have anywhere else in the squad. He didn’t trust Skrtel to play his system (even though he was better suited to it than Carragher), he didn’t trust him to show leadership. He then changed the system and the personnel to make the best of what he had. When you consider the emphasis he drenched in his pressers regarding his system upon arrival at the club, it was refreshing to see that he had adaptability and was prepared to make difficult calls on players for the betterment of the squad and the club.

Fast forward to today, and Martin Skrtel is now the entrusted member of the back line. When fit, he plays. When other players have been out injured they have had to work to get back into the squad. Skrtel did it last season. Now this implies that Skrtel has come on leaps and bounds since then, hence he is now number one centre back, but that in itself is misleading without context. We still leak goals, we have spent a little under £40m in the last two summers to try and stop leaking goals, yet Martin Skrtel still plays whilst one of the players bought in is dropped despite proving pretty effective in his first season whilst still learning the league and language? This is where the hypocrisy lies. How can Brendan justify Skrtel’s selection when he spent all that money to improve that spot? Why does he not show some trust in Lovren and Sakho to develop as a pair? Surely you spend £20m and £16m respectively on centre halves to play together, especially as you are selling your longest term number one centre half due to body is unfortunately breaking down.

Skrtel is just the longest term and oddest example given the events that proceeded, and that’s why I use him first as an example of seemingly misplaced trust. Look further though and we see that Brendan trusts Gerrard, Johnson, and Balotelli. Despite poor performances from those players regularly thus far this season, and the fact that when others have been given a chance in their position they have then been dropped despite playing better, there’s too many players Brendan trusts who just are not performing. I wonder where this trust is coming from. Are they all doing marvellous things on the training pitch? Even if they are they can’t replicate it on match day, it’s all based on reputation.

My concerns are not only for the results and the players who have recently performed better than their senior peers, namely in the shape of Manquillo, Sakho, Lucas and Borini, but in Brendan’s rationale behind his team selections. It appears almost as though he is now focused on players he trusts have great ability, rather than being practical in the system. He’s had time to and money to build his squad in his own image yet we are disjointed and dysfunctional. We have half a defence that likes to back off and play aggressively in small spaces on the right (Johnson and Skrtel), and progressive defenders who want to step out and compress the space ahead of them on the left side (Lovren and Moreno). We were initially told that we wanted to be progressive in defence and step out quickly, but we play two players who are adverse to this on one side and as a result is we are massively lop-sided. There’s Sakho and Manquillo available who want to step out, their inclusion would allow our backline to play as a unified straight line. They however are not trusted, and don’t walk straight back into the side like Skrtel and Johnson do.

To add to this the Gerrard conundrum. I have spoken at length about Gerrard in the only player thread on the board, so I will keep this brief as I don’t think it’s his own fault. The problem being a player who needs time and space on the ball isn’t getting it. Nobody will step out with the ball in the backline as Sakho and Agger might, and it makes it easy for an attacking opposition player to just sit on Gerrard as there’s no threat of the midfield being bypassed from a defender stepping out with the ball. You combine this, with a lack of anyone stretching the game at the top end of the pitch and the space Gerrard can play in is miniscule. Space that is essential to a player of his age to get his head up and ping passes. We need a player with more quickness or mobility and we have a player sitting on the bench (if he’s lucky) who is a specialist in this role with his anticipation and can break games up without the use of excessive physicality. It seems you can’t dislodge Gerrard though, despite him being unfeasible in the system we play with the players available, because Brendan trusts him.

The same goes for Mario. Again a player who would be a good plan C, say two strikers like Suarez and Sturridge were available, but the reason he would be the plan C is not only due to his inferior ability to these players but because he thrives in a different system as he’s a very different player. He isn’t going to stretch teams in behind, he isn’t going to create loads. What he will do is hold the ball, generate some space and fire. Instead of getting a back-up for Sturridge in the summer, we got an upgrade of Lambert, and with Sturridge out we are now void of ideas of how to get in behind. This means Gerrard has nobody to pass to, same for Coutinho, and we are pushed deeper and deeper as we have no outlet to exploit the space teams leave in behind. Lovren and Moreno are more comfortable with the ball than without it, but they get sucked deep by the right side. Gerrard goes wandering and doesn’t have the acceleration or mobility to force mistakes and gets bypassed. We are weak on the back foot, we are vulnerable when we have the ball. It’s all a bit of a mess and although the top names are playing, we don’t look like a unit whatsoever right now, and it’s hurting us.

Without meaning to specifically name players as I have, I just want to point out that the sample sizes for these players are huge compared to the ones who are not getting a game because they are getting so much game time meritocracy is barely given a chance to exist. We saw in Madrid some fringe players come in and perform admirable as a balanced unit with a specific set of instructions, only to go and rip it all up by picking players based on reputation and trust in the next game against Chelsea. Trust in players is outbalancing meritocracy at the moment, and that is neither good for morale and results on evidence so far.

The question begs as to where Rodgers’ trust in his system and football philosophy is hiding? Yes he trusts the senior players like Gerrard, Skrtel, Johnson, and Balotelli, but surely that’s too many wrong pieces to make the puzzle fit? As I say, Brendan has been given licence to go and recruit and mould a squad in tune to his vision, but we seem to be caught between two different ideologies all over the park. It’s disconcerting that Rodgers is placing more trust in several individual players than he is in his own football philosophy when he has been given the time and money to get those personnel. I expected we may take a backwards step during the initial six months of this season, but we have regressed quite significantly. We were laughing at mancs this time last year at how far they had fallen; we’ve fallen almost as far in terms of what is happening on the football pitch, however not a club as a whole, thankfully. But it is nonetheless very concerning that Brendan seems quite so far away from balance at the moment, despite the overhaul.

I take solace in that we have been here before. In all of Brendan’s three seasons we have begun poorly in contrast to how we have developed through the winter and thereon after. I would expect us to get much, much better in the coming months. The problem being akin to his first season however, that we may fall too far to make u the ground we need. I’m still fairly confident of a top four finish, but we must come back after the international break and look for a fresh start. The system should be king. Morale itself is low and that encapsulates our season so far, so it’s time to give some fresh minds a chance to prove themselves and get us playing as a cohesive unit where all the parts are functional if not sensational. Play players who will press from the front, play an energetic midfield with a defensively astute holding player sweeping in behind them and get our two big money centre halves acclimatised to each other stepping up quickly along with a defensively sound full back to balance the explosive Moreno on his opposite side. It might mean big earners on the bench, but if it starts to function as a unit who are all driven by the same instincts then we are more than halfway there.

I believe in Brendan this this will come. He is football man who will surely be aware of so many flaws in how we are performing and how he himself is performing. The pressure is starting to mount and for once an international break couldn't have come at a better time. Rodgers can spend some time away from the majority of the squad, look and watch at what has been occurring these last few weeks. He will have a plan in mind as to how to integrate the right players upon their return. I little analysis of where we are at the moment and I don’t doubt changes will occur. They simply have to if Brendan wants to prove he is a Liverpool manager to the world and his superiors. Big managers make big calls, and maybe it would be easier for a Rafa or Kenny to assert the authority on the squad right now, however they had to make their first big calls to get into the respected positions they have occupied to be more comfortable doing so.

It’s time for Rodgers to be brave and show faith in the balance between meritocracy, trust and his own footballing philosophies.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 03:36:33 am by The Gold Rings Benitle »
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Offline leivapool

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2014, 06:53:14 pm »
I don't have as much faith as you seem to that Brendan will solve the problem sadly, it's gone on for far too many games in my opinion,  this way he has of picking his favourites,  but it's a good read nonetheless!
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2014, 08:27:42 pm »
good post again - i think that Rodgers is experiencing extreme pressure at this moment in time and thus is defaulting to his senior players, the "leaders" in the team and hoping they can pull the team through this rough period

Im sure during this international break that he will reflect upon where the team is right now and i would hope for some real changes but we may not see much of anything new. Sturridge may well come back and we start winning...but what happens when he gets injured again?

Offline McSquared

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 08:31:52 pm »
Could stubborness be playing a role? Brendan throws in Lovren at every opportunity which cannot be based on merit or trust. Kolo would be there on merit after Real.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2014, 08:55:22 pm »
I think if Rodgers turns this around he`ll prove he`s a proper Liverpool manager. It`s obviously by far the biggest test of his managerial career because it`s always gonna be easier to get to where he is rather than staying there. And even if the turns it around and we`re all happy at the end of the season either his eye for a player will have to improve or we`ll have to get better scouts.

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2014, 09:14:37 pm »
Rodgers got stick in the media particularly for the Madrid game but in a way it was the best thing he's done this season in terms of picking a team that would perform well and do a job, we were so inept at Anfield against them and the Newcastle performance (and most games this season league and CL) have been bloody awful. But it was the fact that you just knew it'd be the same old players back in on the Saturday who haven't performed all season and the same old disjointed crap, wrong team wrong system and it'd take 70 minutes for us to change it. That's exactly what happened and it wasn't a surprise when I seen the team. I read the point somewhere else that Rodgers has probably annoyed the majority of the dressing room last week. The players who started in Madrid will wonder how and why they've been dropped when Rodgers praised them all and said they were in his plans for the weekend. The players who got us into the CL will be annoyed not to start the glamour tie of the group. The fans who defended Rodgers for his team selection by virtue of the Newcastle performance and the game at Anfield against Madrid will feel let down as soon as they saw the Chelsea teamsheet. Then there's the fans who felt Rodgers threw the game in Madrid by leaving out most of his regulars. It's a awful week when you manage to piss everyone off and undo a lot of well earned goodwill left over from last season.

I did hold out hope the Madrid game could be the making of Rodgers this season and propel us to better performances because he's been way off his game this season. Even if the Madrid team was just something he stumbled on he could have kept faith with most of those players. I do worry that he's too concerned with the media and what they think in some cases. Certainly with Gerrard where he got stick for not playing him in Madrid and he won't want people like Carragher and Redknapp on his back on Sky and stuff like that for leaving Gerrard out the team. Lovren's his guy and he's staked a lot on paying all that money for him after the Sakho signing last season who he doesn't seem to want, so he'll keep him in for the duration. Lallana is a weird one and you wonder why we signed him in the first place if he can't fit him in the side, or even bring him off the bench. Manquilo deserves to play over Johnson.

We're not going to have free midweeks for a while yet so we do need to use the squad but you've got to do it intelligently and be most fair to the players that are performing, not to the biggest names, your blue eyed boys or your tenants.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 09:19:57 pm by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Robinred

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2014, 09:17:09 pm »
I think most fair, thoughtful posters who watch us regularly would find themselves nodding at most (if not all) of that.

Brendan had a lot of credit in the bank after last season. Some of his signings and many of his selections thus far this term have had the effect of making us question whether he is the manager we thought we'd acquired.

I believe a season following a failed title challenge, a loss of your best player, major recruitment and a World Cup summer, can be legitimately be used to explain some of our woes. Chelsea aside, other clubs expected to challenge for a top four place are also doing their share of soul searching after a disappointing points total thus far.

So I welcome this international break (for once). My suspicion is that the period from the resumption to Christmas will tell us far more about the trajectory of our club and it's rivals for CL places than the previous three months have. As you say, Brendan and his staff have time to reflect. One thing you and many others hope he reflects on is the nature of meritocracy and it's potency in shaping our season last term.
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Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2014, 09:23:16 pm »
Square pegs round holes. There is no philosophy this season, four months is a decent sample size to see that, one good performance in four months and Spurs was and still are pretty dire. We all know who the underperformers are, it's not gonna change this season, don't look for it, just be happy when Daniel is back papering over the cracks and do a better job at building next summer with a clear idea of what you actually want.

Offline diegoLFC7

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2014, 11:00:13 pm »
Its inexplicable to be in the position we are after all the money available we had in the summer. Sure most of our players had mediocre to poor world cups, we lost our best player in decades, and we had to rebuild but that happened to other teams as well. Teams that were in mid table to relegation spots last season.

Southampton proved that with the right management and without getting those so called "marquee" players that they can turn things around. I would have thought for sure with the 100 mill quid that we and to splurge that we would have brought proven quality in. NO, in fact were bringing players in that have the future to develop and then to make a quick buck off them. If thats the type of club that we want to become then thats perfect business, but i think like much of you that we are meant to be a title contending club every season. Much of the criticism in the summer was put on Rodgers to sign a big name. If he didn't have that pressure I'm sure he would have signed a player with a better track record than Balotelli, but then again no one wants to come to Liverpool.

Our arguably biggest problem is the location of Liverpool. Theres players that would fancy playing for Spurs than us purely because they are in London, and thats sad but at the same time we can't control that. What we can control is to make sure that we are consistently a threat in every competition and that players and agents start taking us more seriously. Brendan Rodgers is still trying to perfect his team, but its tough when you look at the player he lost in Suarez. Still thats no excuse for losing games to rubbish teams at Anfield, and fielding a team to prevent a rout instead of looking for a win (Madrid away). These next couple of months will be crucial for Brendan Rodgers and like it or not if he continues with these sub par performances especially with the return of Sturridge he will be sacked in my opinion.

Crucial games coming up.

Ludogorets Away-Champions league
Basel Home- Champions League
Bournemouth - League Cup
Arsenal Home- Premier League

I trust Brendans ideology but results are king.
Seen us win everything

Offline harryc

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2014, 11:18:56 pm »
Players not wanting to move to merseyside because of the location needs stamping on now. Players move down the East Lancs Rd easily enough, it's all to do with ambition and sometimes that means ignoring your self imposed pay as you earn pay scale.

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2014, 11:27:21 pm »
Its inexplicable to be in the position we are after all the money available we had in the summer. Sure most of our players had mediocre to poor world cups, we lost our best player in decades, and we had to rebuild but that happened to other teams as well. Teams that were in mid table to relegation spots last season.

Southampton proved that with the right management and without getting those so called "marquee" players that they can turn things around. I would have thought for sure with the 100 mill quid that we and to splurge that we would have brought proven quality in. NO, in fact were bringing players in that have the future to develop and then to make a quick buck off them. If thats the type of club that we want to become then thats perfect business, but i think like much of you that we are meant to be a title contending club every season. Much of the criticism in the summer was put on Rodgers to sign a big name. If he didn't have that pressure I'm sure he would have signed a player with a better track record than Balotelli, but then again no one wants to come to Liverpool.

Our arguably biggest problem is the location of Liverpool. Theres players that would fancy playing for Spurs than us purely because they are in London, and thats sad but at the same time we can't control that. What we can control is to make sure that we are consistently a threat in every competition and that players and agents start taking us more seriously. Brendan Rodgers is still trying to perfect his team, but its tough when you look at the player he lost in Suarez. Still thats no excuse for losing games to rubbish teams at Anfield, and fielding a team to prevent a rout instead of looking for a win (Madrid away). These next couple of months will be crucial for Brendan Rodgers and like it or not if he continues with these sub par performances especially with the return of Sturridge he will be sacked in my opinion.

Crucial games coming up.

Ludogorets Away-Champions league
Basel Home- Champions League
Bournemouth - League Cup
Arsenal Home- Premier League

I trust Brendans ideology but results are king.

Sorry but that's mostly cobblers.
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Offline Kopite13

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 12:28:39 am »
Great read -Daws-!
Been thinking along these lines for some time now.

Hard to fathom the Sakho situation really.

Hopefully Brendan can turn things around.

Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 02:10:45 am »
Excellent read, I think a lot of us share this same opinion but you've put it together very well.

Maybe I took it up wrong but seem's you contradicted yourself slightly by wondering why Brendan stick's with Balotelli but should also stop sticking with Skrtel ahead of Sakho due to Skrtel being more established and Sakho needing time to settle. Balotelli too need's time to settle and I find with strikers if they don't hit the ground running they tend to struggle, when they get dropped though that's generally the end of them before they get time to settle. At the moment our hands are tied and we have no one else who will offer more than Balotelli up top in the current system, what we need to do though is try accomadate him more and if that means playing Borini or Sterling around him then that's what needs to happen.

With Brendan being so young it's easy to think that he maybe doesn't have the command of the dressing room the same way as Kenny or indeed Rafa would of, that could be true but I agree totally there are some big calls to be made and if he doesn't make them it's either down to poor management or lack of bottle. Either way, both are attributes you don't want to see from a manager of this football club.

I understand Rodger's trusting more experienced players and fan's favouring young players/new signings but I think its blatantly obvious to everyone the players letting us down regularly are the more experienced players who are less suited to the system. The system being so fitness based, it's obvious younger players will prosper anyhow.

Agree this is the one international break that has happened at the right time. As you say it gives Brendan a couple of week's to review what's going on, who's underperforming, who's not getting a fair crack and what's going wrong tactically that we haven't created a clear cut chance since playing Hull. We have Balotelli recalled to the Italian squad where hopefully he can bag a goal in a system more suited to him and build up some confidence. Also we have Daniel recovering from injury and should be back in action by the time it's over, Sakho will be closer to a return and Flanagan also who Rodgers seemed to trust last season.

Will he make these changes coming into what now have become the most important 6 or 7 games of our season? I'm not so sure unfortunately but as always remain hopeful. If he doesn't make these change's and we end up out of the CL and losing more ground on top 4 then you'd have to start questioning his ability as a manager. The problems are so blatantly obvious it defy's belief a top manager as we consider Rodgers isn't addressing them.
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Offline redrockydennis

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 08:03:35 am »
Rodgers is a right bastard making all these new players live 5 to a bedsit in kenny.
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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 01:25:08 pm »
Only just seen this. Good post, and one that I agree with the vast majority of.
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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 05:39:22 pm »
I have thought this too. The most blatant example is Lovren. It's not just that he is playing badly, is that he's not doing what he was bought to do. He's not the player Rodgers thought he was. The place for him to learn it is not the first team.
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Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 06:34:19 pm »
I have trust in Rodgers because I have seen his merit. When judging people it is important to remember the original plan.  Rodgers was hired to overhaul a team in 8th to become a Champions League team that would sustain itself by intelligently buying youth and developing that talent.  This was going to be a structural overhaul, a long term plan without a guarantee of success when in competition with the likes of Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd., and Arsenal.
How has he done?  The team is much, much younger.  We are in the Champions League.  Rodgers' winning percentage is equal to (only Rafa) or higher than any Liverpool manager since Kenny's first stint.

You don't go from being a great manager at the end of one year to a manager unable to make rational decisions six months later.  He's going to make mistakes, like every single manager.  The process, the plan, will inevitably have ups and downs. 

How about we all wait until he's at least won a smaller percentage of his games at Liverpool than Roy Evans or Gerard Houllier before we start thinking that there's something inherently flawed in Rodgers as a manager.  He will pick the wrong players, and the wrong tactics, and buy the wrong players some of the time, but to think that he is incapable of objectively analyzing his players because he has warm feelings towards some of them seems an enormous stretch to me.

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 09:32:34 pm »
I

You don't go from being a great manager at the end of one year to a manager unable to make rational decisions six months later.  He's going to make mistakes, like every single manager.  The process, the plan, will inevitably have ups and downs. 



I think you're actually saying that it's inappropriate for a person to go from THINKING/PRAISING Brendan Rodgers as a great manager at the end of one season to thinking/lambasting Brendan Rodgers as a manager incapable of making rational decisions six months later.

It is not an established, objective fact that Brendan WAS a great manager at the end of last season.

The more one illegitimately, impulsively over-generalizes positively about someone, the more illegitimately, impulsively will he/she over-generalize negatively about that same someone at a later stage. It's the "you betrayed me, I believed in you, I believed you were great, it 'turns out' you're not, you're 'shit'" process.

Many "fell in love" with Brendan Rodgers last season. We all know what happens when  . . . that happens. And then, when the 'disappointments' came this season, they've been reacting like disillusioned lovers.

That's my $0.02, anyway.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 11:42:11 pm by GrkStav »
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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 10:19:25 pm »
I have trust in Rodgers because I have seen his merit. When judging people it is important to remember the original plan.  Rodgers was hired to overhaul a team in 8th to become a Champions League team that would sustain itself by intelligently buying youth and developing that talent.  This was going to be a structural overhaul, a long term plan without a guarantee of success when in competition with the likes of Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd., and Arsenal.
How has he done?  The team is much, much younger.  We are in the Champions League.  Rodgers' winning percentage is equal to (only Rafa) or higher than any Liverpool manager since Kenny's first stint.

You don't go from being a great manager at the end of one year to a manager unable to make rational decisions six months later.  He's going to make mistakes, like every single manager.  The process, the plan, will inevitably have ups and downs. 

How about we all wait until he's at least won a smaller percentage of his games at Liverpool than Roy Evans or Gerard Houllier before we start thinking that there's something inherently flawed in Rodgers as a manager.  He will pick the wrong players, and the wrong tactics, and buy the wrong players some of the time, but to think that he is incapable of objectively analyzing his players because he has warm feelings towards some of them seems an enormous stretch to me.

Yes, but shouldn't we be developing our own talent via a prosperous youth system rather than spending money on importing youth?

This is not me blaming Brendan - this is blaming the club's policy over the last 16 years where our youth output has been putrid.

We cannot expect to be as successful as Barca, Milan - dare I say it, the 90s Man Utd team - if we don't develop our own talent. Until we can balance spending transfer funds on established players and young talent coming through the Academy, we will forever be destined to be 'nearly men'.

Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2014, 10:51:56 pm »
Yes, but shouldn't we be developing our own talent via a prosperous youth system rather than spending money on importing youth?

We should be as well.  It doesn't really matter as long as you are getting the same or more money for the older players you sell as it costs to buy or produce your young players.  That's the sustainable model.  I would say that it would be reasonable to expect that the players we have bought aged under 25 will be worth more than it cost to buy/produce them.  This means that either we can spend more money on wages, or we can buy older players to fill in the missing pieces.
I would say that Rodgers has given a good number of academy places produced from previous managers a chance. 

Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2014, 08:13:43 am »
I think you're actually saying that it's inappropriate for a person to go from THINKING/PRAISING Brendan Rodgers as a great manager at the end of one season to thinking/lambasting Brendan Rodgers as a manager incapable of making rational decisions six months later.

It is not an established, objective fact that Brendan WAS a great manager at the end of last season.

The more one illegitimately, impulsively over-generalizes positively about someone, the more illegitimately, impulsively will he/she over-generalize negatively about that same someone at a later stage. It's the "you betrayed me, I believed in you, I believed you were great, it 'turns out' you're not, you're 'shit'" process.

Many "fell in love" with Brendan Rodgers last season. We all know what happens when  . . . that happens. And then, when the 'disappointments' came this season, they've been reacting like disillusioned lovers.

That's my $0.02, anyway.

I think it's interesting the debate on how much our great season last season was down to Rodgers and how much down to other factors.

From Kenny's reign, to Rodgers first season to his second season there was continual improvement but with the sample size being so small its hard to judge him on that. Of course he also set the bar so high last season so it isn't fair to compare this season's final position to that.

With a 100m net spend now I think it's fair to say we expect an improvement on Kenny's final positions in the league (6th,8th) and Rodger's first season (7th). With that in mind, is finishing outside the top 4 this season very much acceptable and would a top 4 finish be seen as progress regardless of our second place finish last season?

Personally I would of took 4th and a cup at the start of the season, another title race was always going to be tough. I wonder will FSG see it that way also.

Even when we were flying last season you could still see there were errors being made and our side was far from the finished article both tactically and in personnel. Our defence, set pieces have never really improved under Rodgers. His record at clubs like Villa and Chelsea is shocking, in fact his record on the road to any of the top 4 sides is poor. He seem's tactically naive at times and in his search for perfect, fluid football he leaves us too exposed at the back. Our pressing has never been at a top top level either, I've always doubted that about our game and think it accounts to the goals leaked at the back.

His naivety against Chelsea and then Palace last year summer it up for me though, he's a manager still very much learning. He's not the finished article, he's not a Ferguson, Mourinho level of tactical and mental nous but he has the potential to be as good and possibly better than both. He has us playing some excellent football and we're probably the most entertaining side in the league, sometimes for the wrong reasons however. To me he's not at that top level of managers yet and I don't feel we should be looking at him as one just yet. I'll be happy for him to prove me wrong though, if we hit a run and finish in the top 3 no one will be able to deny Rodgers the credit for that especially with Suarez now gone.

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2014, 12:26:05 pm »
Awesome OP.

I don't trust Rodgers to change anything after the international break, it's going to be the same players same system and same results.
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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2014, 12:51:19 pm »
Its inexplicable to be in the position we are after all the money available we had in the summer. Sure most of our players had mediocre to poor world cups, we lost our best player in decades, and we had to rebuild but that happened to other teams as well. Teams that were in mid table to relegation spots last season.

Southampton proved that with the right management and without getting those so called "marquee" players that they can turn things around. I would have thought for sure with the 100 mill quid that we and to splurge that we would have brought proven quality in. NO, in fact were bringing players in that have the future to develop and then to make a quick buck off them. If thats the type of club that we want to become then thats perfect business, but i think like much of you that we are meant to be a title contending club every season. Much of the criticism in the summer was put on Rodgers to sign a big name. If he didn't have that pressure I'm sure he would have signed a player with a better track record than Balotelli, but then again no one wants to come to Liverpool.

Our arguably biggest problem is the location of Liverpool. Theres players that would fancy playing for Spurs than us purely because they are in London, and thats sad but at the same time we can't control that. What we can control is to make sure that we are consistently a threat in every competition and that players and agents start taking us more seriously. Brendan Rodgers is still trying to perfect his team, but its tough when you look at the player he lost in Suarez. Still thats no excuse for losing games to rubbish teams at Anfield, and fielding a team to prevent a rout instead of looking for a win (Madrid away). These next couple of months will be crucial for Brendan Rodgers and like it or not if he continues with these sub par performances especially with the return of Sturridge he will be sacked in my opinion.

Crucial games coming up.

Ludogorets Away-Champions league
Basel Home- Champions League
Bournemouth - League Cup
Arsenal Home- Premier League

I trust Brendans ideology but results are king.
its the players who are putting in sub par performances not brendan,as they say,once you cross the white line ur on your own.yes,some players havent been doing that well but brendan obviously looks at all the stats from training and picks the team accordingly.I remember constantly questioning rafas teams but it became futile as he had a very sofisticated way of determining players fitness levels etc and picked his team on those stats.also,the signings should be doing better,theyre not bad players just need time to adapt to been at a big club.as for southhampton,well,lets see where they finish up,west ham are 4th ffs so dont be fooled by the prem league table,especially as its only november.

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2014, 12:54:19 pm »
I don't trust Rodgers to change anything after the international break, it's going to be the same players same system and same results.

Except his tenure at the club argues against practically every word you've written there.

When Rodgers arrived, many thought (some feared) that he was a stubborn idealist, with a vision that he was unwilling to compromise at any cost. That impression was understandable as well, given the public statements from him at the time, as well as through simply witnessing his Swansea team in action. But what we got was far more akin to a pragmatist. Would a stubborn manager, unwilling to learn and adapt have made the decision to move away from that 'death by football' approach - that he had so passionately advocated - just a few months into the job, in favour of a far more direct system designed to extract the best from the tools at his disposal? I doubt it. The tactics, formations and approaches have changed regularly throughout his time at the club, and he's not been averse to changing his mind on personnel either - Henderson (offered to Fulham by Rodgers in his early months) and Flanagan (well and truly out of the picture) being prime examples.

I wouldn't say that the willingness to change or adapt has deserted Rodgers this term either - we've seen it in recent games, with a shift in focus from the attack to the organisation of the team defensively. He has struggled to knit the various issues that are evident at the moment together though, no doubt. The changes that he's making aren't working at the moment, so to criticise that fact would be far more accurate I think. To say that he's not likely or willing to adapt would be to ignore the previous two and a half years. Not only in terms of approach, but results too. They've also meandered from patchy (pre-Christmas year 1), to a steady and consistent improvement (up to Christmas year 2) and then exponential improvement (post-Christmas year 2), to a noted decline (opening period year 3). Comparisons have been made between Rodgers' first season at the club and this, and with good reason because there are several similarities. Not least a number of players within the squad out of sync with what is being asked of them. How long did it take for that to come together the first time around? Answer that question and it stands to reason that the current crop may well require similar.

The other similarity - with each of Rodgers two previous seasons at the club - has been the steady improvement as the season has gone on, particularly post-Christmas. I've mentioned this a few times, but it has certainly seemed as though pre-season is geared towards building fitness to a peak leavel approaching the mid-way point, with a view to really taking off in that second half of the season. We've seen lethargic performances in the early part of each season under Rodgers, as well as the steady improvement and increase in intensity as the weeks pass by - both of which, on the face of it at least, add some credence to this theory.

So yeah, overall, I wouldn't be so quick to paint Rodgers as rigid, or to downplay the likelihood of things coming together (i) under him (ii) as the season goes on. History (small sample size acknowledged) suggests otherwise on both counts.
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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2014, 01:05:57 pm »
i really cant understand some fans questioning brendans ability after 11 games into a new season with our top strikers missing.as some have said,world cup hangover,reaching fitness at the right time,new players settling in to a new club/system.all these things take time,and of all fans,we should be  patient atm.it will come right,just keep the faith.do we seriously want to go down the sack/hire/spend /sack hire spend model of a lot of clubs?longevity is the key to most top managers reigns.they are giving the time and support of the board to get their long term plans to fruition.we only have to look at newcastle,the natives were getting restless but the board backed pardew and they have turned things around.you cant underestimate the benefit of that support to a manger when things arent going well,when you think of it,he has enough shite to deal with without the board sticking their oar in and putting more pressure on him.

Offline sharpmono

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2014, 01:19:28 pm »
Yes, but shouldn't we be developing our own talent via a prosperous youth system rather than spending money on importing youth?

I don't get this bit. When Ged came in, he was said to have instilled professionalism that was missing during the Spice Boys era. Don't remember whether he was said to have improved the academy. Then Rafa came in and was said to have improved the academy, including firing the Heighway gang and bringing Kenny back. Ok forget about Hodge. I read in some other posts here that BR has also been improving the academy.

So, did any of the previous and current managers improve the academy or not?


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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2014, 02:17:17 pm »
Except his tenure at the club argues against practically every word you've written there.

When Rodgers arrived, many thought (some feared) that he was a stubborn idealist, with a vision that he was unwilling to compromise at any cost. That impression was understandable as well, given the public statements from him at the time, as well as through simply witnessing his Swansea team in action. But what we got was far more akin to a pragmatist. Would a stubborn manager, unwilling to learn and adapt have made the decision to move away from that 'death by football' approach - that he had so passionately advocated - just a few months into the job, in favour of a far more direct system designed to extract the best from the tools at his disposal? I doubt it. The tactics, formations and approaches have changed regularly throughout his time at the club, and he's not been averse to changing his mind on personnel either - Henderson (offered to Fulham by Rodgers in his early months) and Flanagan (well and truly out of the picture) being prime examples.

I wouldn't say that the willingness to change or adapt has deserted Rodgers this term either - we've seen it in recent games, with a shift in focus from the attack to the organisation of the team defensively. He has struggled to knit the various issues that are evident at the moment together though, no doubt. The changes that he's making aren't working at the moment, so to criticise that fact would be far more accurate I think. To say that he's not likely or willing to adapt would be to ignore the previous two and a half years. Not only in terms of approach, but results too. They've also meandered from patchy (pre-Christmas year 1), to a steady and consistent improvement (up to Christmas year 2) and then exponential improvement (post-Christmas year 2), to a noted decline (opening period year 3). Comparisons have been made between Rodgers' first season at the club and this, and with good reason because there are several similarities. Not least a number of players within the squad out of sync with what is being asked of them. How long did it take for that to come together the first time around? Answer that question and it stands to reason that the current crop may well require similar.

The other similarity - with each of Rodgers two previous seasons at the club - has been the steady improvement as the season has gone on, particularly post-Christmas. I've mentioned this a few times, but it has certainly seemed as though pre-season is geared towards building fitness to a peak leavel approaching the mid-way point, with a view to really taking off in that second half of the season. We've seen lethargic performances in the early part of each season under Rodgers, as well as the steady improvement and increase in intensity as the weeks pass by - both of which, on the face of it at least, add some credence to this theory.

So yeah, overall, I wouldn't be so quick to paint Rodgers as rigid, or to downplay the likelihood of things coming together (i) under him (ii) as the season goes on. History (small sample size acknowledged) suggests otherwise on both counts.
Good post and fair points.

Let's hope as the previous season's show with Rodger's that we have a strong second half of the season.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Where's the meritocracy is trust?
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2014, 03:04:10 pm »
its the players who are putting in sub par performances not brendan,as they say,once you cross the white line ur on your own.yes,some players havent been doing that well but brendan obviously looks at all the stats from training and picks the team accordingly.I remember constantly questioning rafas teams but it became futile as he had a very sofisticated way of determining players fitness levels etc and picked his team on those stats.also,the signings should be doing better,theyre not bad players just need time to adapt to been at a big club.as for southhampton,well,lets see where they finish up,west ham are 4th ffs so dont be fooled by the prem league table,especially as its only november.

So, we might as well pack it in, and await the end of the season to see the final prem league table before we render a judgment.

If we go by final prem league table, then BR's first season was not very good. His second season was very good. Evaluating him as a manager based on either one alone seems irrational.
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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2014, 03:18:16 pm »

The same goes for Mario. Again a player who would be a good plan C, say two strikers like Suarez and Sturridge were available, but the reason he would be the plan C is not only due to his inferior ability to these players but because he thrives in a different system as he’s a very different player. He isn’t going to stretch teams in behind, he isn’t going to create loads. What he will do is hold the ball, generate some space and fire. Instead of getting a back-up for Sturridge in the summer, we got an upgrade of Lambert, and with Sturridge out we are now void of ideas of how to get in behind. This means Gerrard has nobody to pass to, same for Coutinho, and we are pushed deeper and deeper as we have no outlet to exploit the space teams leave in behind. Lovren and Moreno are more comfortable with the ball than without it, but they get sucked deep by the right side. Gerrard goes wandering and doesn’t have the acceleration or mobility to force mistakes and gets bypassed. We are weak on the back foot, we are vulnerable when we have the ball. It’s all a bit of a mess and although the top names are playing, we don’t look like a unit whatsoever right now, and it’s hurting us.


Excellent piece Daws.

Forgive me for extracting a single para after all the sterling effort you've given your piece but I cannot move away from what I see as the beginning, middle and end of our problems this season. Whilst I can see the logic in everything else you've said, I really do feel we would not even be referencing such matters were it not for the summer aberration of failing to provide cover/replacement where we really needed it.

When I began my initial tirade a month or so ago I can recall a phrase I used then - 'a team without an attacking outlet is not a team'. It's an over-simplification I know but for me every other aspect of our stuttering form - including our defensive lapses - pales into insignificance compared to what I see as the fundamental error by the club that has left us with a gaping, life-draining self-inflicted wound.

It is why I can see a huge improvement when Sturridge returns. And if Origi comes in we will even win the boat race.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2014, 03:31:26 pm »
I don't think there's enough data yet to confidently judge Brendan's ability as a manager, there's been too many other factors both ways over the past 2 years. At the end of next season feels like the appropriate time to sit down and think "Does he have it in him to be a top manager?", and hopefully the answer we come to is a resounding yes.

I feel like the largest part of that answer is going to come with how he develops the defence and midfield over the next 12 months.


Rodgers is (hopefully) learning, and I hope stubbornness/ego doesn't hide the current faults from him, that are present in playing 3 games a week and our system without Suarez + sturridge
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 03:34:17 pm by Crosby Wych »
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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2014, 04:14:11 pm »
I cannot move away from what I see as the beginning, middle and end of our problems this season. Whilst I can see the logic in everything else you've said, I really do feel we would not even be referencing such matters were it not for the summer aberration of failing to provide cover/replacement where we really needed it.

When I began my initial tirade a month or so ago I can recall a phrase I used then - 'a team without an attacking outlet is not a team'. It's an over-simplification I know but for me every other aspect of our stuttering form - including our defensive lapses - pales into insignificance compared to what I see as the fundamental error by the club that has left us with a gaping, life-draining self-inflicted wound.

It is why I can see a huge improvement when Sturridge returns. And if Origi comes in we will even win the boat race.

I agree with you overall there, Timbo. The bit in bold though, I think they're all interlinked. The lack of the kind of attack that our system is built on is having a knock-on effect on every other area of the side, and not in a positive way.
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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2014, 05:20:03 pm »
I agree with you overall there, Timbo. The bit in bold though, I think they're all interlinked. The lack of the kind of attack that our system is built on is having a knock-on effect on every other area of the side, and not in a positive way.

Absolutely Grob. In fact, that's really what I mean but hadn't phrased it as accurately or succinctly as yourself.

On the bright side I can also envisage the reverse process with Sturridge's return with a positive knock-on effect right through the team.

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2014, 06:24:42 am »
I agree with you overall there, Timbo. The bit in bold though, I think they're all interlinked. The lack of the kind of attack that our system is built on is having a knock-on effect on every other area of the side, and not in a positive way.

What kind of attack is our system built on?

What is our system, anyway, at this point?
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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2014, 09:22:00 am »
What kind of attack is our system built on?

What is our system, anyway, at this point?

I think Daws tried pretty well to convey the chronology of how Brendan has attempted to orchestrate it.

Reflecting on it in broad as distinct from specific terms I'd say that the bit we're really interested in - or certainly me because i never bought the death by football shite in any case - is the post Coutinho/Sturridge phase.

The way I see it is the system was dead simple. It was all about players. It was them that dictated the system. And by that I mean what was a truly world class attacking quartet of Suarez/Sturridge/Coutinho/Sterling. They transcended any real or pre-determined requirement for tactics/systems because their individual and collective quality was at such a rare and irrepressible level it rendered any real tactical approach to a game incidental. We played off the cuff attuned purely to the whims of four players who at times were unplayable individually and collectively.

Needless to say the rest of the team merely fell into place at a level which for the most part - though clearly not always especially defensively - complemented the symphonies being composed on the hoof by the magical quartet.

The problem has been this season that since Sturridge has been absent it has shown that two of the quartet were it would seem almost entirely dependent upon taking their lead from at least one but essentially upon both of the other two parts of the quartet.

We'll see when Daniel returns to full throttle whether what we saw at Spurs confirms that we only require three of the quartet to get back to something like what the full complement gave us last season.

Whether it does or doesn't we certainly need to recruit in january something akin to the missing fourth member of the quartet to ensure we're able to get as near as possible to the dream ticket of last season.

The point is the horrendous time we've had since Daniel left us so bare is not really as complex an issue as so many seem to think it is. We had the blueprint - and it was one that depended to a huge extent on improvisation on the day - and we need to get back to it by recruitment of the right personnel to go with the three we've already got. In the meantime we must hope Daniel's return is enough to get us most of the way there.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 09:28:35 am by Timbo's Goals »

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2014, 09:43:02 am »
Timbo, in Sturridge absence we was always going to struggle but what's the excuse for not getting these points whilst he's been missing? We still have plenty of talent in the team but Brendan has seemingly done his best to play onto the hands of the opposition.

We've seen evidence of Balotelli perform better when he's got a partner. We've seen sterling be more influential in that number 10 role and we've seen Lucas provide more then Gerrard with the current players available.

So why has Balotelli been shoved up on his own? When he drops deep there is nobody in front of him and when he makes runs he's often caught offside. Sterling is often on the wing, with Balotelli either deep or in an offside position, he's double marked and isolated. Gerrard's role is literally pass a couple of yards to full backs or centre backs or long diagonal that's intercepted, he has no defensive responsibility, or doesn't show any except his position on the pitch, he doesn't have defensive qualities required.

I'm mystified why we would use the players available in the current formation, it suits nobody. Even Jordan Henderson is struggling instead if playing  in that inside right channel a diamond provides he's doing two or three jobs as things stand.

I couldn't invisage a worse way to utilize the players on the absence of Sturridge and Suarez.   

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2014, 09:49:32 am »
I agree it's a bit ridiculous how his absence seems to have had such a disproportionate negative impact.

The team have failed to man up.

I don't fully understand it and I don't know exactly where blame lies but I do feel the morale of the team stepping out onto that pitch without an attacking outlet worthy of the name has been severely hit. Especially when seeing no reward for an opening 20 minutes endeavour.

As I say I think morale will be restored to at least something like the level it needs to be at with the return of Sturridge.

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2014, 03:25:57 pm »
It's not a 'system' when you rely on the 'creativity' of a combination of 4 players.

Trying to reproduce such an approach (let's not call it a 'system' as then the word loses any of its meaning) in the absence of two of its four crucial components is less than brilliant.

Trying to reproduce it in the future by purchasing the equivalent of one of the two now missing and hoping the other one returns and stays healthy is, imo, again not the most brilliant.

The phrase 'death by football' may very well be moronic, but the actual approach it is used to label is not in the least so.

Helter-skelter football (or any other team sport) relying on creative brilliance and one-of-a-kind combination of players is exciting but unsustainable. If BR (and FSG) go the way of trying to reproduce it, we'll be unsuccessful.
Ludi Circenses!

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2014, 08:02:12 pm »
It's not a 'system' when you rely on the 'creativity' of a combination of 4 players.

Trying to reproduce such an approach (let's not call it a 'system' as then the word loses any of its meaning) in the absence of two of its four crucial components is less than brilliant.

Trying to reproduce it in the future by purchasing the equivalent of one of the two now missing and hoping the other one returns and stays healthy is, imo, again not the most brilliant.

The phrase 'death by football' may very well be moronic, but the actual approach it is used to label is not in the least so.

Helter-skelter football (or any other team sport) relying on creative brilliance and one-of-a-kind combination of players is exciting but unsustainable. If BR (and FSG) go the way of trying to reproduce it, we'll be unsuccessful.

Ha ha

I'd settle for such a shit system any day.

To hell with whether it's non-existent, haphazard or whatever.
 
;D


Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2014, 11:10:38 am »
It's not a 'system' when you rely on the 'creativity' of a combination of 4 players.

Trying to reproduce such an approach (let's not call it a 'system' as then the word loses any of its meaning) in the absence of two of its four crucial components is less than brilliant.

Trying to reproduce it in the future by purchasing the equivalent of one of the two now missing and hoping the other one returns and stays healthy is, imo, again not the most brilliant.

The phrase 'death by football' may very well be moronic, but the actual approach it is used to label is not in the least so.

Helter-skelter football (or any other team sport) relying on creative brilliance and one-of-a-kind combination of players is exciting but unsustainable. If BR (and FSG) go the way of trying to reproduce it, we'll be unsuccessful.

I'd say the highlighted bits are utter bollocks and a million miles removed from reality. Particularly the underlined bit. It's all about players. Systems have a place but very much way down in the pecking order of footballing reality. It's players wot count.

Damien Comolli obviously reads my posts on RAWK...
 
;D

...because he seems to agree it's all about players


The highlighted bit in the following interview extract kindly posted by Surfer is obviously the most relevant and the fact is what's said is simply basic common sense and reasoned logic.

It sort of harks back in a broad sense to the old adage  that if something's not broke then don't fuckinwell try and mend the damned fucking godforsaken thing. Liverpool had something that was beautiful, rare and precious but were losing Suarez. It meant they had a gun to their heads which screamed at them to at least attempt to replace him and what he brought to the table [tactics? sytsems? fucking arseholes!]with a player or players that could go at least some way towards replicating what he brought to the table.

As I've said time and again they fucked up.

Perhaps because they were too obsessed with fucking sytems bollocks like you seem to be and took their eye off the ball and the fact that what they'd had was utterly and entirely quality player driven - inspired from the attacking top of the pitch by two outstanding talents who could get beyond any defence and who inspired the other two members of the world class quartet.

Everything we were about last season began and ended with that quartet. Everything else was utterly incidental.

"I think it’s very interesting to compare it with Atletico Madrid’s approach. They and Liverpool both lost their key player – Diego Costa won the league for Atletico on his own and took them to a Champions League final on his own.  Luis Suarez took Liverpool to second place on his own, Champions League too. [THAT'S BOLLOCKS OF COURSE - IT WAS BY NO MEANS LUIS ON HIS OWN BUT AS I'VE SAID ABOVE THE WORLD CLASS QUARTET OF SUAREZ PLUS STURRIDGE, COUTINHO AND STERLING]

Atletico asked themselves ‘Can we find a replacement for Costa that we can afford? No we can’t. But what we can do is sign Mandzukic, who is quite similar, and Griezmann.’ They basically swapped one for two and kept a very stable team. Liverpool have done it the other way around. [NO - LIVEROOL HAVE SIMPLY FUCKED UP WITH NOT SIGNING THE PACY, MOBILE STRIKERS TO AT LEAST ATTEMPT TO REPLACE SUAREZ AND COVER FOR MISTER FRAGILE MUSCLES - NO DISRESPECT DANNY BOY - I LOVE YOU TO BITS BUT THOSE FUCKIN LEG MUSCLES  -JEEZ]
. ”

“Liverpool have invested in youth with the likes Philippe Coutinho, Mamadou Sakho, Raheem Sterling, Jon Flanagan and suddenly they change everything. I think the philosophies (at Atletico and Liverpool) are very different and time will tell which is the best one.”

"But Atletico still have a very functional team and are doing very well. They haven't destroyed what they've built. You look at Liverpool from the outside and they’ve kind of destroyed what they built, what they had. . If you compare the two clubs – and if you ask yourself whose been the most successful at it, you’d say Atletico Madrid.”

“I don’t know what’s going on from a fitness point of view. They don’t look right. Being in clubs for a long time, I know sometimes that the eyes tell you that the team is not right physically but when you look at the data, it tells you otherwise. But when you look at the Liverpool players against Newcastle, the quick players looked slow, the players with great stamina looked heavy-legged so I don’t know if there’s a physical aspect to why they’re not performing.”

“Last year, as much as they were killing everybody with the pace they had, the team spirit, team dynamics, togetherness and cohesion was unbelievable in the second part of the season. And it seems that this season, they’ve lost that completely. Which brings me back to my first point – bringing so many players in compared to Atletico Madrid. Did they kill the team spirit? Did they kill the cohesion they had? Maybe they did and that takes a long, long time to come back – especially if results aren’t going their way.”

"That’s why Liverpool deserve credit. Losing your strike-force – one player because he’s sold, the other because he’s injured, is probably too much to cope with. NOT IF YOU'D HAVE FUCKINWELL CATERED FOR IT IT'S NOT!!!.  If Sturridge was fit, it would be a different story. But it reminds me so much of what happened to us at Spurs. We had programmed to sell Dimitar Berbatov and we ended up selling both Berbatov and Robbie Keane because Keane wanted to go and the money offered by Liverpool was unbelievable and impossible to turn down. And then we lost the best attacking partnership in the Premier League – the best pair over two seasons was Berbatov and Keane in terms of assists made and goals scored. Liverpool have been getting a lot of criticism but I think it’s a bit unfair because Sturridge is not there. If it’s still not working when Sturridge gets back, then there’s really grounds for concern.”

« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 11:26:09 am by Timbo's Goals »

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Where's the meritocracy in trust?
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2014, 11:21:56 am »
Apologies to anyone deluded enough to read the fragmented mess that is my above post - but every now and again I simply lose it in bitter frustration that what we had last season has been so fucked up by utter incompetance by our management.

The immensity of such frustration simply has to be expelled every now and again and bollocks about sytems etc from afar lights the touch paper.

Sorry GrK Stav - I know you mean well.

And breath.

 ;D