Topic: The unravelling. A team, manager and fans shafted by transfer incompetence

[PhaseOfPlay]

I'm curious, is there a specific team in time that you could point to and say: this is how Rodgers wants to play?

I thought at first it was Pep's Barcelona, but then Rodgers doesn't want to play with a Destroyer - or would we call Busquets's role a Controller? We also don't press, at best we pressure high but that's rare as well.

It doesn't seem very Dutch as, it seems, Rodgers doesn't like to go very direct or play diagonal passes - excepting last season with Gerrard + SAS, a style of play we turned away from and did not recruit for after Suarez left.

When we moved to 343, we seemed more like last years team - but then why did we sign a traditional CF (Lambert), a Trequartista-cum-striker who doesn't score and is not mobile (Balotelli), and send off Aspas who of the three would have fit best in such a system, regardless of his corners?

But now that the pressure is off, the 343 as we knew it is gone and we're back to the slow (and poorly done) buildup, no-press, followed by a sudden impatience in the final third that leads to a loss of possession.

We don't look like we're 'learning a system' in these matches. It looks like different players are playing different systems at different times.

There's been some good play in the last two games, it hasn't all been shit, but I'm getting tired of the 'well we need goal scorers that are mobile'. If thats the case, why didn't we get any and send off the one we had and never played? Following Rodgers recent comments about how great we did recruiting this past summer and how he put the stamp on it all, I'm just left scratching my head.

What is Rodgers vision? What is the plan? What are we doing?

To be fair, if its Rodgers that's confused, how can a TC or DoF or anyone else buy players that will work out for us? You could break transfer records but if we're this disorientated and changeable, how are they or any other player going to be at their best?

Aspas' goals mostly came from penalties, though. He never really looked like scoring once he figured out that refs don't whistle every time you are touched, in England.

And the answer is "goalscorers", and more specifically, goalscorers who like to push up and play behind the defenders. I don't know why people have such a hard time accepting that. Look at all the data available on who makes top four, and who challenges for the title, etc. A goal is roughly worth 1 point, in a 3-points for a win system. The more goals you score, generally the more points you gain (as long as you are not also conceding at a ridiculous rate). If you have a great defence, you can score less goals and still gain points (which is why people look at the defences of teams and want to copy that, because it stands to reason that if you start off with zero against, you only need one goal to win - there's no harm in that logic).

The top scorer in every season barring four or five of them since the inception of the Premier league, has been on a top four team. Individuals who have a knack for scoring goals in open play are generally the most expensive players with the biggest wages. That's because they are a relatively rare commodity, and you have to pay to obtain their services.

Now that's not to say we don't have any other problems except for goals. Of course we do. But that's the BIGGEST problem we have - scoring goals. It doesn't matter how else you do in the game, if you're scoring goals, you can win things. If you aren't, it's very difficult, and you might have to rely on your defence a lot more - which we all know isn't Rodgers' strength.

It could be the case that FSG might change tack and instead of looking for managers who coach attack and want to score goals, they might now realise how skewed the market is towards top strikers and the money they command, and might decide they need to go for a more defensive manager who compensates for lack of goals with great defence. Perhaps that's in their minds. But for Rodgers, for the way he works, and for the way football works in general, you need goalscorers to win consistently. Not five of them. Two or three, in descending order of usual goal-rate. 20-15-10 are the magic numbers. Anything better than that, you're flying. Anything worse, you're struggling. And like us, if you're top scorer can't even get to the 10 mark, then you should be REALLY struggling.

[PhaseOfPlay]

This is a genuine question, not a wind-up.

Is Brendan a coach rather than a manager?

Is he the "Peter Taylor" or, dare I say it, "Colin Harvey" of modern football?

He's the Clough, rather than the Taylor. Taylor spotted the players. Clough managed them.

He's not even Clough though.

He's probably more Sacchi. Great thinker on the game, great trainer of players, even a good man-manager - but relentless in his vision of "perfection" and hasn't got the eye for the player that others have.

[Arthurs Bar]

Thing is mate I've been saying that bit in bold for coming up 3 decades. My dad was raised in the dynasty era of LFC, I think this season, and last has taught me that that isn't coming back. It's taken years to learn it, and last season nearly wiped out what I'd learned altogether, but in pretty much every sense the liverpool my dad brought me up on is long since dead.

The fans aren't the same, the ground isn't the same, the club isn't the same and I'm pretty much convinced we'll spend the next 25 years trying to get as close to winning the league as we have in the previous 25 and getting the same results. Accepting where we are now makes it easier, for me, and that's what I've done this season.

I don't even really like a lot of what Liverpool FC is in 2015 if I'm completely honest. Just another global corporation really. I'm not a scouser, so I'm part of the disease rather than the cure if I'm honest...but when i used to go with my dad [who is a scouser, like his father before him] i was afraid to shout incase someone heard my wool accent. I've been to games in the main stand these last 2 years when I've genuinely not heard a scouse accent all game, it's fucking wrong.

I've strayed slightly into the OOT/scouser debate again, but for what it's worth without scousers this club ceases to be LFC. The less scousers in the ground there is, the less it feels like liverpool football club to me and the more it feels like 'the liverpool sports experience'. I don't really care if they're north face lads sniffing lemo - they're scousers, it's their club. Not norweigian lads, not southerners, not thomas cook's gang, not even wools like me [who'd like to think he knows the score] - its called Liverpool football club, if scousers don't like going/don't get to go it ceases to be that really. And it just becomes a corporate attraction in liverpool, which is the way it's going...

I've had all this on my mind for a while now so I'm just going to go for it...

I don't like how much it costs, i fucking hate mighty red, I get really fucking annoyed how regulars get ripped off by thomas cook, the fact people still attended hull in some reasonable numbers annoys me, the SOS lads getting told 'you won't achieve anything' annoys me, Peter Mcdowall announcing the team instead of george annoys me, people staring at me for singing annoys me, to be honest the fact anfield serves wine annoys me a bit, selfie sticks annoy me, selfies annoy me, full kit wankers annoy me, 'who are ya' annoys me, the liverpool fan with the cockney accent sat behind me at the chelsea game going 'classic facking mourinho mate' annoys me, half and halfs annoy me, Wanker Hats annoy me, people filming minutes sileneces or YNWA annoys me....it just feels like every single thing I knew at Anfield is fucked. It used to feel - genuinely - like a quasi religious/spiritual experience going to anfield, it's one up from going to a Westfield now.

Now getting back to the point -  all this was briefly forgotten last year, but now it's back and badder than ever as we slump to another nothing season in what's been by and large a decade of them. It'd be great to think back on last season as the 'norm', that next year we'll be right back up in the mix, but as it stands it's very, very hard to see. United were shit and we were boss last year. Fuck me that was great. But they've spent their way back in, and they'll spend more again and stay there. We might fight a bit harder, might even make it from time to time, but I can't see us getting back to the top table, I really can't. Thank fuck for Rafa and that 5th european cup, it's going to be some time before we add to it.

At mention of Rafa - all this feeling started when Liverpool sacked Rafa, for me. It felt like the club was being run as a business, not as something governed by the heart. I remember texting mates about it thinking how flat out wrong it was. It's not as simple as this of course - 1992, hick and gillette, the loss of the old kop - lots of things have been steadily ripping the heart out of LFC for years, I guess it was just when Rafa was sacked I fully started to realize I was supporting a business institution, not a football club.

I've gone right around the houses with all this, suppose I just wanted to get it all off my chest. This post is more or less how I've felt for 3 or 4 seasons now, but last year did a wonderful job putting it off. But it's hard not to feel that that was the blip, and the norm has now resumed.

I don't know how to sum up. I can't really, it's just a random collection of ranted thoughts. I guess after being so sure up to THAT chelsea game last season that we had one foot back in the holy land, this season has been by and large a relentless tidal wave of shite. And that's what the norm is. I just can't see it changing.

Boss

[Miltonred]

Bonsky's not wrong though. Wenger has a lot of autonomy at Arsenal and that's about it. Mourinho doesn't have autonomy, Rafa, despite what you've said, does not have autonomy. Most managers do not have autonomy over transfers at all. They may have a little involvement but by and large, it's not their job. I even remember Ferguson criticising Rafa by saying that full control over transfers was the last thing he personally wanted. Alex Ferguson didn't want full control over transfers!

The problem is not that Rodgers doesn't get full control over transfers. The problem is if there is an underlying philosophy behind targets. I'd argue that Rodgers' own rumoured signings have less of a cohesive philosophy behind them than the ones the Committee are rumoured to have bought. That's my issue with our transfer setup - it's whether everyone is aware of the types of players we should be buying, not just price wise and age wise but tactically as well.

Rodgers sets the tactical and technical principles in place, then more or less relinquishes control. That's how I think it should be.

Depends how you define autonomy.
All clubs have some kind of financial limitation, whether its the depth of the pockets of some Russian oligarch, or the amount of money a bank will loan a club. Now we have FFP which also places a soft limit (you can ignore it and wait for the fine I suppose) even if you have more money than sense.

Then there are limitations on individual targets fees, because you  might have multiple needs to fill. If you have 50mill, and need three players, spending 49mill on one guy might be a mistake.

Finally there is contractual limitations, club philosophy and wage structure might preclude blowing 150k a week on a 34 yr old and a 5 year contract. So there are limitations, and much of those will be imposed upon a manager (probably agreed upon) but still the total autonomy is eroded.

If I were manager, I would want to be fully involved in setting the philosophy for signing players, age, contract lengths, wage structure etc. I would want to be fully involved in briefing scouts for types of players we should be targetting, and i would want to be reviewing every name suggested, and able to add my own at any point to be scouted.

Then I would want to be deciding who is a yes to approach and who isn't, and based on a window by window budget, how much we would be willing to spend on each target.  I would also want to have an ability to kick up a stink if we are shy of picking up a target because of marginal difference in fee or wage.

[TSC]

Where is the value or promise in Ings and Milner?

Milner = 'value' - free transfer
Ings = 'promise' - scored a few goals for a bottom of the league team and is young, so may get better & perform at a bigger club, or may not.

[Qston]

I'd second that. It's a depressing post, but probably a pretty fair assessment of how many increasingly feel these days.

and I would third or fourth or fifth it

[GregCharrua]

Aspas' goals mostly came from penalties, though. He never really looked like scoring once he figured out that refs don't whistle every time you are touched, in England.

And the answer is "goalscorers", and more specifically, goalscorers who like to push up and play behind the defenders. I don't know why people have such a hard time accepting that. Look at all the data available on who makes top four, and who challenges for the title, etc. A goal is roughly worth 1 point, in a 3-points for a win system. The more goals you score, generally the more points you gain (as long as you are not also conceding at a ridiculous rate). If you have a great defence, you can score less goals and still gain points (which is why people look at the defences of teams and want to copy that, because it stands to reason that if you start off with zero against, you only need one goal to win - there's no harm in that logic).

The top scorer in every season barring four or five of them since the inception of the Premier league, has been on a top four team. Individuals who have a knack for scoring goals in open play are generally the most expensive players with the biggest wages. That's because they are a relatively rare commodity, and you have to pay to obtain their services.

Now that's not to say we don't have any other problems except for goals. Of course we do. But that's the BIGGEST problem we have - scoring goals. It doesn't matter how else you do in the game, if you're scoring goals, you can win things. If you aren't, it's very difficult, and you might have to rely on your defence a lot more - which we all know isn't Rodgers' strength.

It could be the case that FSG might change tack and instead of looking for managers who coach attack and want to score goals, they might now realise how skewed the market is towards top strikers and the money they command, and might decide they need to go for a more defensive manager who compensates for lack of goals with great defence. Perhaps that's in their minds. But for Rodgers, for the way he works, and for the way football works in general, you need goalscorers to win consistently. Not five of them. Two or three, in descending order of usual goal-rate. 20-15-10 are the magic numbers. Anything better than that, you're flying. Anything worse, you're struggling. And like us, if you're top scorer can't even get to the 10 mark, then you should be REALLY struggling.

PoP, I agree with the importance of a goalscorer. My post was less about that, and more about the amount of confusion about how we want to play at all levels, and how that makes it more difficult to get the right sort of goalscorer in.

I just find it hard to believe that Rodgers had Balotelli and Lambert forced upon him and there were no other targets. And as a member of the TC, if he allowed it to come to the point where at the end of the window Balotelli and Eto'o were all that was left, then he needs to be taken far away from transfer activity.

But beyond the strikers, whats going on with how we play?

Is there a team that you could point us towards in some point of time that represents what Rodgers vision actually is?

I know in your other posts you've said: short passing to feet, high pressure, etc and we're just playing poorly but it looks like more than playing poorly. And if we are playing that poorly then that hangs on Rodgers, doesn't it?

I look at Rodgers success with the diamond and the 343 switch and want to believe that is the 'real' BR at work. But then how do explain the start to 2012/13 and the start to this season and its whimpering finale?

[TSC]

LIVERPOOL -- Brendan Rodgers has defended Liverpool's transfer committee despite claims that it is holding the club back.

I hope for Brendan's sake, and yes ours, that he's being diplomatic in that article.  Because if he genuinely believes what is written in that article then maybe we're even more fucked than we think we are.

It's a bucket of shite Brendan and in over 3 years has never worked, except for a couple of what can only be viewed now as 'flukes' in Coutinho/Sturridge.  Law of averages, if you sign enough players at reasonably high prices then the odd one-in-ten or whatever will turn out decent, no matter how incompetent you are.

[Redman0151]

I hope for Brendan's sake, and yes ours, that he's being diplomatic in that article.  Because if he genuinely believes what is written in that article then maybe we're even more fucked than we think we are.

It's a bucket of shite Brendan and in over 3 years has never worked, except for a couple of what can only be viewed now as 'flukes' in Coutinho/Sturridge.  Law of averages, if you sign enough players at reasonably high prices then the odd one-in-ten or whatever will turn out decent, no matter how incompetent you are.

Wouldn't be surprised if Rodgers' has been told "If it comes down to you or the committee, you'll be packing your bags.", so he's got to show they can still work together to save his own skin too

[Johns_Barn]

I too am an outsider- though I lived in the great city for a decade (inc 2001 & 2005). The biggest thing that grated me was the silence from fans, like you say, folk lookin at you weird for raising your voice. Its a shame the mentality of fans and the people in the UK in general is that we can't drop our partisan divides to help the whole. Scudamore wins

Minus the expectancy it's the possibility of bucking the petrodollar trend that excites me nowadays.

[plura]

Er okay brendan me old china - pick which you want - is it to be tripe and onions or Tripe and radish?

can't I have steak and chips?

nah. sorry mate - tripe and onions or tripe and radish it is.

Er - eeny meeny miny mo - ok I'll take the tripe and onions.

Right. Ian'll just tell them to add a few more million to the fee and we'll get him here.

Coo - ta muchly. What a great bunch you fellas are, leaving the final say to me.

Don't mention it. You're the fuckin boss pal.

Haha!

I doubt there is any way possible to get you to one day believe that he actually has the final say?

If it ever was a challenge if I saw one!

[clinical]

Who decides how much to pay for a player? Is that ian ayre? I mean who thought paying £25m for lallana was a good idea, and £20m for lovren. The committee and/or rodgers have to take responsibility and admit their mistakes

[lindylou100]

I'm curious, is there a specific team in time that you could point to and say: this is how Rodgers wants to play?

I thought at first it was Pep's Barcelona, but then Rodgers doesn't want to play with a Destroyer - or would we call Busquets's role a Controller? We also don't press, at best we pressure high but that's rare as well.

It doesn't seem very Dutch as, it seems, Rodgers doesn't like to go very direct or play diagonal passes - excepting last season with Gerrard + SAS, a style of play we turned away from and did not recruit for after Suarez left.

When we moved to 343, we seemed more like last years team - but then why did we sign a traditional CF (Lambert), a Trequartista-cum-striker who doesn't score and is not mobile (Balotelli), and send off Aspas who of the three would have fit best in such a system, regardless of his corners?

But now that the pressure is off, the 343 as we knew it is gone and we're back to the slow (and poorly done) buildup, no-press, followed by a sudden impatience in the final third that leads to a loss of possession.

We don't look like we're 'learning a system' in these matches. It looks like different players are playing different systems at different times.

There's been some good play in the last two games, it hasn't all been shit, but I'm getting tired of the 'well we need goal scorers that are mobile'. If thats the case, why didn't we get any and send off the one we had and never played? Following Rodgers recent comments about how great we did recruiting this past summer and how he put the stamp on it all, I'm just left scratching my head.

What is Rodgers vision? What is the plan? What are we doing?

To be fair, if its Rodgers that's confused, how can a TC or DoF or anyone else buy players that will work out for us? You could break transfer records but if we're this disorientated and changeable, how are they or any other player going to be at their best?

I agree completely, after 3 seasons it's not unreasonable to expect that we should have a certain system of play with a set of 3-4 core players along the spine that can be relied upon to implement it. My main problem is when i look at the bigger picture,  we have no playing identity and a bunch of players suited different types of system, it's all so disjointed and gives the impression the manager doesn't know himself how he wants the team to play. Everything looks like a short term fix for "now" instead of thinking ahead.

My other problem is that all too often the conversation seems focused on the balotelli transfer which may or may not be in BR control, when we should be focusing on his management of things that are in his control, like our defence and midfield which look weak and cobbled together after 3 seasons. Frankly I don't care what anyone says, without both of these things we are never going to progress enough to win anything even with a top class striker. As far as the attack goes, balotelli aside its shocking to me how little threat we pose from set pieces and from our attacking midfield players, it's like we don't practice or something. A striker isn't going to be enough to paper over the deeper cracks we have in our squad.

All together it makes me doubt whether Rodgers has a long term plan or even knows where he is taking this club.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Start to 2012-13: new manager setting his ideas with unfamiliar players being asked to do some things they never had to do before.

This season - a complete fustercluck of epic proportions from the moment Suarez left to Barcelona. Let's look at the woefulness of the season:

- Suarez leaves
- Gerrard comes back from a disappointing World Cup
- We go for Sanchez, end up with Balotelli
- Mignolet has a meltdown and his hands turn to butter and his brain to candyfloss
- Lovren plays like a player who won a competition to play football
- Sturridge gets injured
- Gerrard's legs go
- Sterling decides that he needs another club
- Sturridge returns
- Sturridge gets injured again
- Rodgers makes managerial mistakes you shouldn't make at pub league level (changing team for Madrid but then changing it back again for Chelsea despite Madrid XI working hard; keeping the passing game going even though we're being pressed into defeat because we won't play a long ball; not pushing for a new striker in January; not playing Lucas when we needed defending performances)
- Speculation all season long about his position as manager
- Lucas gets injured again
- Sakho gets injured again
- Team goes from a great run to completely collapsing in the latter stages

It's a perfect storm of crapness all round. It's bound to affect the players and manager. But most importantly, it's also bound to put the manager under pressure, and when you're under pressure, you resort to what you know the most, and for Rodgers, that's pure possession. So with an under-pressure manager, no penetrating goalscorers, an out-of-sorts midfield, and a fluctuating goalkeeper, it's no surprise that everything looks "safe" and "passive". Rodgers is coaching what he knows, the players are trying to play to that, and without targets to hit up front, there's no attack being generated, so our game gets bogged down in midfield and the back third, passing forever, hoping something happens up front. A friend of mine once described a team like a bird, with hard working wings, a strong central core, a sense of direction, and a sharp front (the beak) with a keen vision. We've been like a headless bird all season, flying this way and that, and never really knowing where we're going - except to keep beating our wings and trying desperately to stay in flight.

[Mainstanderbutsitting]

He's the Clough, rather than the Taylor. Taylor spotted the players. Clough managed them.

He's not even Clough though.

He's probably more Sacchi. Great thinker on the game, great trainer of players, even a good man-manager - but relentless in his vision of "perfection" and hasn't got the eye for the player that others have.

And that asks the question - is he really?

The SG situation this season? Sterling? Borini out of the picture and now he's back on the bench? Mario and Lambert? It seems the list goes on.

[wah00ey]

I don't like how much it costs, i fucking hate mighty red, I get really fucking annoyed how regulars get ripped off by thomas cook, the fact people still attended hull in some reasonable numbers annoys me, the SOS lads getting told 'you won't achieve anything' annoys me, Peter Mcdowall announcing the team instead of george annoys me, people staring at me for singing annoys me, to be honest the fact anfield serves wine annoys me a bit, selfie sticks annoy me, selfies annoy me, full kit wankers annoy me, 'who are ya' annoys me, the liverpool fan with the cockney accent sat behind me at the chelsea game going 'classic facking mourinho mate' annoys me, half and halfs annoy me, Wanker Hats annoy me, people filming minutes sileneces or YNWA annoys me....it just feels like every single thing I knew at Anfield is fucked. It used to feel - genuinely - like a quasi religious/spiritual experience going to anfield, it's one up from going to a Westfield now.

This x10

[PhaseOfPlay]

And that asks the question - is he really?

The SG situation this season? Sterling? Borini out of the picture and now he's back on the bench? Mario and Lambert? It seems the list goes on.

The list of what?

[TSC]

Agree with almost all of that, although I haven't quite reached the same levels of acceptance re where we are/will be longer term.  But if pressed I suppose I couldn't argue a good case against your vision, depressing as it is.  Just blind hope if no longer faith exists.

[muyuu]

Thing is mate I've been saying that bit in bold for coming up 3 decades. My dad was raised in the dynasty era of LFC, I think this season, and last has taught me that that isn't coming back. It's taken years to learn it, and last season nearly wiped out what I'd learned altogether, but in pretty much every sense the liverpool my dad brought me up on is long since dead.

The fans aren't the same, the ground isn't the same, the club isn't the same and I'm pretty much convinced we'll spend the next 25 years trying to get as close to winning the league as we have in the previous 25 and getting the same results. Accepting where we are now makes it easier, for me, and that's what I've done this season.

I don't even really like a lot of what Liverpool FC is in 2015 if I'm completely honest. Just another global corporation really. I'm not a scouser, so I'm part of the disease rather than the cure if I'm honest...but when i used to go with my dad [who is a scouser, like his father before him] i was afraid to shout incase someone heard my wool accent. I've been to games in the main stand these last 2 years when I've genuinely not heard a scouse accent all game, it's fucking wrong.

I've strayed slightly into the OOT/scouser debate again, but for what it's worth without scousers this club ceases to be LFC. The less scousers in the ground there is, the less it feels like liverpool football club to me and the more it feels like 'the liverpool sports experience'. I don't really care if they're north face lads sniffing lemo - they're scousers, it's their club. Not norweigian lads, not southerners, not thomas cook's gang, not even wools like me [who'd like to think he knows the score] - its called Liverpool football club, if scousers don't like going/don't get to go it ceases to be that really. And it just becomes a corporate attraction in liverpool, which is the way it's going...

I've had all this on my mind for a while now so I'm just going to go for it...

I don't like how much it costs, i fucking hate mighty red, I get really fucking annoyed how regulars get ripped off by thomas cook, the fact people still attended hull in some reasonable numbers annoys me, the SOS lads getting told 'you won't achieve anything' annoys me, Peter Mcdowall announcing the team instead of george annoys me, people staring at me for singing annoys me, to be honest the fact anfield serves wine annoys me a bit, selfie sticks annoy me, selfies annoy me, full kit wankers annoy me, 'who are ya' annoys me, the liverpool fan with the cockney accent sat behind me at the chelsea game going 'classic facking mourinho mate' annoys me, half and halfs annoy me, Wanker Hats annoy me, people filming minutes sileneces or YNWA annoys me....it just feels like every single thing I knew at Anfield is fucked. It used to feel - genuinely - like a quasi religious/spiritual experience going to anfield, it's one up from going to a Westfield now.

Now getting back to the point -  all this was briefly forgotten last year, but now it's back and badder than ever as we slump to another nothing season in what's been by and large a decade of them. It'd be great to think back on last season as the 'norm', that next year we'll be right back up in the mix, but as it stands it's very, very hard to see. United were shit and we were boss last year. Fuck me that was great. But they've spent their way back in, and they'll spend more again and stay there. We might fight a bit harder, might even make it from time to time, but I can't see us getting back to the top table, I really can't. Thank fuck for Rafa and that 5th european cup, it's going to be some time before we add to it.

At mention of Rafa - all this feeling started when Liverpool sacked Rafa, for me. It felt like the club was being run as a business, not as something governed by the heart. I remember texting mates about it thinking how flat out wrong it was. It's not as simple as this of course - 1992, hick and gillette, the loss of the old kop - lots of things have been steadily ripping the heart out of LFC for years, I guess it was just when Rafa was sacked I fully started to realize I was supporting a business institution, not a football club.

I've gone right around the houses with all this, suppose I just wanted to get it all off my chest. This post is more or less how I've felt for 3 or 4 seasons now, but last year did a wonderful job putting it off. But it's hard not to feel that that was the blip, and the norm has now resumed.

I don't know how to sum up. I can't really, it's just a random collection of ranted thoughts. I guess after being so sure up to THAT chelsea game last season that we had one foot back in the holy land, this season has been by and large a relentless tidal wave of shite. And that's what the norm is. I just can't see it changing.

You're conflating two wildly contradicting things here. LFC no longer being a town club and success in the league. If you turn down all the money from outside the Merseyside we're going down to League One. Even the Bitters have substantial support from outside. So good luck with being a nice provincial sports club supported by tickets in a league moving billions of pounds. If anything we have turned away from Europe and into Britain recently and this is costing us, in terms of vision.

As for actual success, yeah the American model is not working and it doesn't seem to be changing. Nothing to do with wools though. We have the resources to be a strong team at the CL level, if it doesn't happen it's because the club direction is wrong. The fans having often poor judgment in regards to players shouldn't have much influence in this.

And yeah I hate Mighty Red, selfies, wanker hats, crappy mobile phone videos of YNWA, etc but you cannot ban c*nts just for that and this is not a problem with LFC but society at large being fucking retarded.

[Rob Dylan]

Who decides how much to pay for a player? Is that ian ayre? I mean who thought paying £25m for lallana was a good idea, and £20m for lovren. The committee and/or rodgers have to take responsibility and admit their mistakes

You always end up paying more for players from the Premier League. But whatever, even if he thinks buying those players was a mistake, or that we paid too much, do you really expect Rodgers to come out and say one of his players is rubbish and not worth the money, or that the committee is incompetent? I don't understand why people expect managers to publically announce that they've made a major mistake, or that they don't know what they're doing - no manager does that. As long as they recognise their mistakes and learn from them, that's all that matters. Not everything can be played out in public.

[naka]

Start to 2012-13: new manager setting his ideas with unfamiliar players being asked to do some things they never had to do before.

This season - a complete fustercluck of epic proportions from the moment Suarez left to Barcelona. Let's look at the woefulness of the season:

- Suarez leaves
- Gerrard comes back from a disappointing World Cup
- We go for Sanchez, end up with Balotelli
- Mignolet has a meltdown and his hands turn to butter and his brain to candyfloss
- Lovren plays like a player who won a competition to play football
- Sturridge gets injured
- Gerrard's legs go
- Sterling decides that he needs another club
- Sturridge returns
- Sturridge gets injured again
- Rodgers makes managerial mistakes you shouldn't make at pub league level (changing team for Madrid but then changing it back again for Chelsea despite Madrid XI working hard; keeping the passing game going even though we're being pressed into defeat because we won't play a long ball; not pushing for a new striker in January; not playing Lucas when we needed defending performances)
- Speculation all season long about his position as manager
- Lucas gets injured again
- Sakho gets injured again
- Team goes from a great run to completely collapsing in the latter stages

It's a perfect storm of crapness all round. It's bound to affect the players and manager. But most importantly, it's also bound to put the manager under pressure, and when you're under pressure, you resort to what you know the most, and for Rodgers, that's pure possession. So with an under-pressure manager, no penetrating goalscorers, an out-of-sorts midfield, and a fluctuating goalkeeper, it's no surprise that everything looks "safe" and "passive". Rodgers is coaching what he knows, the players are trying to play to that, and without targets to hit up front, there's no attack being generated, so our game gets bogged down in midfield and the back third, passing forever, hoping something happens up front. A friend of mine once described a team like a bird, with hard working wings, a strong central core, a sense of direction, and a sharp front (the beak) with a keen vision. We've been like a headless bird all season, flying this way and that, and never really knowing where we're going - except to keep beating our wings and trying desperately to stay in flight.

POP whilst reading this you have increased my doubts that BR has the experience and know how to get out of this rut.

[PhaseOfPlay]

POP whilst reading this you have increased my doubts that BR has the experience and know how to get out of this rut.

I can't help that

But bigger managers than Rodgers have also succumbed to similar bad seasons. That's football.

He'll either sink like a stone because of this, or turn into a champion swimmer if he comes out the other side.

A lot of learning opportunities there if he wants them

[GregCharrua]

Start to 2012-13: new manager setting his ideas with unfamiliar players being asked to do some things they never had to do before.

This season - a complete fustercluck of epic proportions from the moment Suarez left to Barcelona. Let's look at the woefulness of the season:

- Suarez leaves
- Gerrard comes back from a disappointing World Cup
- We go for Sanchez, end up with Balotelli
- Mignolet has a meltdown and his hands turn to butter and his brain to candyfloss
- Lovren plays like a player who won a competition to play football
- Sturridge gets injured
- Gerrard's legs go
- Sterling decides that he needs another club
- Sturridge returns
- Sturridge gets injured again
- Rodgers makes managerial mistakes you shouldn't make at pub league level (changing team for Madrid but then changing it back again for Chelsea despite Madrid XI working hard; keeping the passing game going even though we're being pressed into defeat because we won't play a long ball; not pushing for a new striker in January; not playing Lucas when we needed defending performances)
- Speculation all season long about his position as manager
- Lucas gets injured again
- Sakho gets injured again
- Team goes from a great run to completely collapsing in the latter stages

It's a perfect storm of crapness all round. It's bound to affect the players and manager. But most importantly, it's also bound to put the manager under pressure, and when you're under pressure, you resort to what you know the most, and for Rodgers, that's pure possession. So with an under-pressure manager, no penetrating goalscorers, an out-of-sorts midfield, and a fluctuating goalkeeper, it's no surprise that everything looks "safe" and "passive". Rodgers is coaching what he knows, the players are trying to play to that, and without targets to hit up front, there's no attack being generated, so our game gets bogged down in midfield and the back third, passing forever, hoping something happens up front. A friend of mine once described a team like a bird, with hard working wings, a strong central core, a sense of direction, and a sharp front (the beak) with a keen vision. We've been like a headless bird all season, flying this way and that, and never really knowing where we're going - except to keep beating our wings and trying desperately to stay in flight.

I like your post because it's easy, in our frustration, to simplify the narrative to reinforce our own negative feelings about how the season is panning out - the focus on TC/Balotelli, the passive play, etc. Here you've done a fine job of cobbling together the crazy dynamics of this past season I think.

Standing back, I guess you have to ask not how responsible Rodgers is but rather how beneficial it would be to remove him, or remove others involved in scouting/recruitment. He's shown he is a problem solver and willing to try new things/bend his philosophy to accommodate new ideas (343, Diamond), but at the same time shown he's handled certain important aspects of the club poorly (player selection at key moments, recruitment, preparing for big matches).

As you said in another post, perhaps FSG will look at a more defensive system where the cost is less (Klopp's geggenpressing, Simeone's compact and hardworking 442)... or is it less? Simeone needed a Falcao, a Costa, a Mandzukic, a Griezmann. Klopp needed Lewandowski, Gotze, Reus, Kuba, Gundogan, etc. With the exception of Falcao, Mandzukic and Griezmann all those players were recruited before they were the finished article... and are now worth huge fees.

So in the end you still need goalscorers. Whether you find a cheap gem in a far flung market or pay out the nose doesn't matter.

I like how we played the end of 2012/13 with Coutinho giving Sturridge balls to run on. I liked the SAS diamond and the sheer intensity, confidence, and determination to beat every team into submission we met. I enjoyed the first few matches with the 343 including United, for the energy, pressing, quick short touches and excitement.. even if we lost at United and still struggled to score in later outings.

I want to see that football every weekend, whether we're at Stoke on a cold wet night or at the Bernabeu under CL floodlights, and I've seen enough to know Rodgers can do it and do it well with the right personnel. Somedays Gerrard will slip or we'll be porous in defense but its always good football that will win more than lose.

I just hope this season is digested as the Big Learning Experience of his career as well as for FSG's stewardship of the club. He deserves next season to show us that and I hope things conspire to help him in terms of recruitment, injuries to key players, and all the rest.

And I don't care if we spend £5m or £50m but we need to come up with the quality that is missing, and Rodgers has to make sure he gets the best out of that talent.

[Twitter.com]

Interesting comment from other forum:


"This is certainly the summer to buy players from Europe, given the Pound / Euro rate at the moment. "

[muyuu]

I can't help that

But bigger managers than Rodgers have also succumbed to similar bad seasons. That's football.

He'll either sink like a stone because of this, or turn into a champion swimmer if he comes out the other side.

A lot of learning opportunities there if he wants them

You make it sound like we got hit by thunder and nothing you listed there is completely unpredictable. In fact many things could be predicted seasons in advance like Gerrard's obvious decline. Even Suarez getting into trouble again was in the cards, and that's about the most unpredictable random thing in that list. We didn't even have substantial injuries outside of Lucas, Sakho and Sturridge who are all injury prone.

Absolutely nothing to do with luck this.

[Redman0151]

Interesting comment from other forum:


"This is certainly the summer to buy players from Europe, given the Pound / Euro rate at the moment. "

Nah mate, Ings, Benteke, Milner woop woop

[didi]

Depay = Babel 2.0. I hope to Fowler we'll go nowhere near him.

Dutch press seem to have the English press syndrome off over hyping their players therefore adding millions to their value?

[PhaseOfPlay]

You make it sound like we got hit by thunder and nothing you listed there is completely unpredictable. In fact many things could be predicted seasons in advance like Gerrard's obvious decline. Even Suarez getting into trouble again was in the cards, and that's about the most unpredictable random thing in that list. We didn't even have substantial injuries outside of Lucas, Sakho and Sturridge who are all injury prone.

Absolutely nothing to do with luck this.

Of course it hasn't.

Top four teams are always losing their two top scorers every season, their keeper having a mare, and their defensive lynchpins getting injured, all at the same time, and still finishing in the top four.

That happens every season, yes?

[TSC]

You're conflating two wildly contradicting things here. LFC no longer being a town club and success in the league. If you turn down all the money from outside the Merseyside we're going down to League One. Even the Bitters have substantial support from outside. So good luck with being a nice provincial sports club supported by tickets in a league moving billions of pounds. If anything we have turned away from Europe and into Britain recently and this is costing us, in terms of vision.

As for actual success, yeah the American model is not working and it doesn't seem to be changing. Nothing to do with wools though. We have the resources to be a strong team at the CL level, if it doesn't happen it's because the club direction is wrong. The fans having often poor judgment in regards to players shouldn't have much influence in this.

And yeah I hate Mighty Red, selfies, wanker hats, crappy mobile phone videos of YNWA, etc but you cannot ban c*nts just for that and this is not a problem with LFC but society at large being fucking retarded.

I think to be fair you've completely missed the point of his post.

[ahfolk79]

- Gerrard's legs go

Hi PoP. This is something that I can't get my head around. Have you ever seen anything like Gerrard's decline in another player? He has just fallen off a cliff this season, almost overnight. I think most of us expected continual gradual decline but nothing like this.

[baynesy]

Shouldn't a manager play to the strengths of the remaining squad HE has put together if injuries hit?

Take the strikers for an easy example, why not try Balotelli in a two up top system that he's used to if Sturridge is out? He was never going to be a tireless lone striker, and neither was Lambert - signed as a Plan B then ignored most of the season.

And PoPs list isn't a one off perfect storm, could easily happen again next year if you change the names...

Hopefully Brendan can turn it around again, but is very worrying how the awful run / form around Oct / Nov is being repeated already, after he seemed to have fixed it in that 13 game 343 run. That's not learning on the job that we were asked to invest in with a young manager...

And most of this season's displays have not been exciting or shown signs of a style developing.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Hi PoP. This is something that I can't get my head around. Have you ever seen anything like Gerrard's decline in another player? He has just fallen off a cliff this season, almost overnight. I think most of us expected continual gradual decline but nothing like this.

I've seen it plenty of times. But not at that level It's usually the lower levels where fitness isn't as high level, that you see such a drop off. The only one I can think of from Liverpool, off-hand, is Barnes. Once he came back from that Achilles Tendon injury, he was a different player - not as fast, not as mobile. Went into central midfield but even then, as good as he was, it just wasn't the same.

[Zoomers]

LIVERPOOL -- Brendan Rodgers has defended Liverpool's transfer committee despite claims that it is holding the club back.

Former Reds midfielder Jan Molby told the Liverpool Echo on Friday that it was time to scrap the committee because "it hasn't worked."

Rodgers has the final say on signings, but they are identified by a committee consisting of the manager, chief executive Ian Ayre, director Mike Gordon, head of analysis Michael Edwards, head of recruitment Dave Fallows and chief scout Barry Hunter.Liverpool's transfer activity last summer, in the wake of the sale of Luis Suarez to Barcelona last summer, has come in for criticism.

Eight players were brought in to play for the club this season -- along with striker Divock Origi, who was loaned back to Lille for a year -- with limited success.

There were suggestions earlier this season that American owners Fenway Sports Group were planning a summer review of the committee, but Rodgers said that he feels the people within the system are doing a good job.

He said: "When I came to Liverpool, I knew 100 percent the model of how the club worked -- but on top of that we've got a really good team of people here. They're good guys who work very, very well.

"We all work well together and understand the model of the club and how it all functions. We have to look at it over the summer and work out what's going to help our squad, and to put up a better challenge for next season, a more consistent challenge. That's something we'll work together on."Liverpool are fifth in the Premier League ahead of Saturday's home game against relegation-threatened Queens Park Rangers.

The club are unlikely to qualify for next season's Champions League, with only four games left to make up a seven-point gap on fourth-placed Manchester United.

Asked how that might impact on Liverpool's summer transfer plans, Rodgers said: "I haven't thought about that to be honest."


Speaking more generally on how significant missing out on Champions League football would be, the manager said: "It will be a disappointment but we would have to regroup again the summer and look to put up a better challenge the following season. That's how it remains.

"But it will never be over until the final whistle blows. We will continue to fight. As we've seen in the past, over many years, there can always be twists that take place.

"We have to work to the end of the season and see where it takes us."

Please make it stop 

[rscanderlech]

Dutch press seem to have the English press syndrome off over hyping their players therefore adding millions to their value?

Depay is far better than Babel.

[ahfolk79]

I've seen it plenty of times. But not at that level It's usually the lower levels where fitness isn't as high level, that you see such a drop off. The only one I can think of from Liverpool, off-hand, is Barnes. Once he came back from that Achilles Tendon injury, he was a different player - not as fast, not as mobile. Went into central midfield but even then, as good as he was, it just wasn't the same.

Thanks. I guess it just proves that fitness is not an exact science. And to think people used to talk about him playing on into his late 30s! I also wonder how much of it is mental - the Demba slip and the awful world cup didn't help.

[rscanderlech]

Probably seen him more than pretty much anyone on here I guess. Overrated player who won't make the grade in a top league. Buying him for anywhere near the prices mentioned in the papers would be a complete catastrophy. A skills video of him bossing around some of the Mickey Mouse defenders in the Dutch league should indeed be taken for nothing more than that: a circus act.

While I also have reservations about just how good he is, he is far more talented than Babel, surely. Look at some of those free kicks...

[TSC]

Hi PoP. This is something that I can't get my head around. Have you ever seen anything like Gerrard's decline in another player? He has just fallen off a cliff this season, almost overnight. I think most of us expected continual gradual decline but nothing like this.

I'd agree performance wise but I think ever since the contract talks, or lack off, quickly followed by announcement of being LA bound, I think he's played well within himself.  Not necessarily deliberately, but maybe simply to a lack of motivation. 

But let's not forget the hangover he must have suffered after last season.  He probably still gets sweats thinking about that slip.  I think it prob affected him on England duty in the WC.  He probably felt like packing it all in after all that.  He done the next best thing - cleared off to LA.

A sad and totally undeserved end (opposition fans will disagree or take glee obviously, the more moderate would sympathise) to a fantastic career.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Shouldn't a manager play to the strengths of the remaining squad HE has put together if injuries hit?

Take the strikers for an easy example, why not try Balotelli in a two up top system that he's used to if Sturridge is out? He was never going to be a tireless lone striker, and neither was Lambert - signed as a Plan B then ignored most of the season.

And PoPs list isn't a one off perfect storm, could easily happen again next year if you change the names...

Hopefully Brendan can turn it around again, but is very worrying how the awful run / form around Oct / Nov is being repeated already, after he seemed to have fixed it in that 13 game 343 run. That's not learning on the job that we were asked to invest in with a young manager...

And most of this season's displays have not been exciting or shown signs of a style developing.

It's not about Balotelli and the system. It's about Balotelli and his woeful finishing. That happens regardless of whatever system he was playing in.

[L666KOP]

I can't help that

But bigger managers than Rodgers have also succumbed to similar bad seasons. That's football.

He'll either sink like a stone because of this, or turn into a champion swimmer if he comes out the other side.

A lot of learning opportunities there if he wants them

The thing is mate, your last two sentences might apply somewhere else.

[PhaseOfPlay]

The thing is mate, your last two sentences might apply somewhere else.

I think so too