Topic: Our Attack - meaning people at the club now - not players you fancy signing

[OOS]

Mario would of had two tap ins today but QPR defenders took them for him.

Any defender worth their salt would have got their footing right and cleared them.

[BUSHMILLS]

More tricks, much less injuries, half the price.
Seriously, he's much better than Carroll and much worse than Suarez. You know, like most PL forwards. Kind of what you expect if you look at his price tag instead of his twitter following.

Also, he's a very different kind of player than Suarez. He should've scored one, and would have gotten two more open shots if the QPR CBs weren't so eager to score.

It's not the missed sitter that worries me - every striker has those. Suarez missed loads of easy chances in his first full season here.

It's his attitude and low work rate that are the big concerns.

[AM76]

It's not the missed sitter that worries me - every striker has those. Suarez missed loads of easy chances in his first full season here.

It's his attitude and low work rate that are the big concerns.

Shouldn't be a surprise as he's been exactly like that at every single club he's played for.  A leopard doesnt change his spots and you sign Mario Balotelli, you aint gonna get workrate like you would from Suarez, Kuyt, Henderson etc

[BUSHMILLS]

Shouldn't be a surprise as he's been exactly like that at every single club he's played for.  A leopard doesnt change his spots and you sign Mario Balotelli, you aint gonna get workrate like you would from Suarez, Kuyt, Henderson etc

True - which is why he seemed a strange signing for us.

I think BR fancied himself as someone who could change him (remember all that "I don't defend corners"..."er, you do now" business?).

Based on the evidence so far, he hasn't changed him at all.

[AM76]

True - which is why he seemed a strange signing for us.

I think BR fancied himself as someone who could change him (remember all that "I don't defend corners"..."er, you do now" business?).

Based on the evidence so far, he hasn't changed him at all.

He wont change him.  Said to one of the lads in work that he's 25 now and has made a very good living for himself doing what he does.  He has to want to change and the fact he's like this at every club he's at means he doesnt want to

[SwordInYourGut]

Balotelli was a transfer we had to make given the corner we forced ourselves into.

Lambert is the one that irks me. Not one single person thought he'd be good enough for us. All that bullshit about plan b. We needed a quality striker who fits our system and could challenge Studge and Balo for a spot in the team, not a nonsense hoof ball option off the bench.

No worries, I think we still have funds left for Suarez's actual replacement. I think we'll pounce if someone like Benzema or Cavani became available. We didn't in the summer probably because such a profile of player wasn't available. Balotelli was probably just a last minute calculated stop gap gamble.

[jaffod]

Can anyone tell me who and what are we as a team?

Are we a quick transitional, counter-attacking team being more comfortable in chaotic games where there are vast spaces to exploit with our pace? Or are we a team that wants to dominate possession and open up teams with slick , clever movement which results in our strikers having chances of very high quality?
Or are we trying to be pragmatic jack of all trades kind of team that uses whatever style is appropriate for any opponent depending on their weaknesses?

What was our plan today? Did we want to dominate and push them back but failed or did we intentionally let them press us so we can pass around them and create good chances.

I honestly don`t know anymore and I wonder are we suffering from identity crisis or am I looking too hard into this?

I've thought for some time we play 'off the cuff' football where there is no discernible style of play. It paid dividends last season because we had a fucking genius up front supported by a lad having the best season he'll ever have. Towards the end of the season when everyone was concentrating on SAS Sterling and Coutinho stepped it up and it was those 2 who were causing all the problems. Everything just fell into place.
 But to answer your question I honestly haven't got a clue what we're trying to do at the moment.

[Fromola]

I've thought for some time we play 'off the cuff' football where there is no discernible style of play. It paid dividends last season because we had a fucking genius up front supported by a lad having the best season he'll ever have. Towards the end of the season when everyone was concentrating on SAS Sterling and Coutinho stepped it up and it was those 2 who were causing all the problems. Everything just fell into place.
 But to answer your question I honestly haven't got a clue what we're trying to do at the moment.

Rodgers turned up as a manager with a philosophy and way of playing that he was obsessed by and had his dossiers to back up. What we're seeing though is more Keegan football. We play off the cuff, we can't defend and we don't control games. Our only form of defence is attack, if we sit back we'll always concede and we struggle to keep the ball which was Rodgers raison d'etre when he arrived.

We have no identity. We stumbled on one in the second half of last season but now are in another identity crisis where we're neither one thing or the other.

[Haemoglobin]

If the idea really was to have Balotelli just slot into the Suarez-shaped hole rather than have to have the team rearranged around him to suit his style, whoever made that call needs shooting, never mind sacking.

Most of us knew it'd be all about how to tease out the talent with our high energy zooming around him, not replacing what Suarez brings (which would be more up to Sturridge, Sterling, Lallana and maybe Markovic - if he developed well here - all in conjunction, but is pretty much impossible in fairness anyway as he's a very rare talent when you take all his attributes into consideration), and was essentially a gambit. There has to be a plan, and most of us've just presumed that involves a regular Sturridge-Balotelli strike partnership... so we haven't had chance to test the plan much yet, have we. He's not giving good signs that he can learn to lead the line on his own in Dan's absence though, which many hoped could be a possible option when needs must.


It'd be lovely if we could unearth a young Suarez somewhere, itchy teeth and all, but he's probably  a unique mix of strengths (and bewildering weaknesses) in the modern game.

[jaffod]

Rodgers turned up as a manager with a philosophy and way of playing that he was obsessed by and had his dossiers to back up. What we're seeing though is more Keegan football. We play off the cuff, we can't defend and we don't control games. Our only form of defence is attack, if we sit back we'll always concede and we struggle to keep the ball which was Rodgers raison d'etre when he arrived.

We have no identity. We stumbled on one in the second half of last season but now are in another identity crisis where we're neither one thing or the other.

Pretty much my take on things.

[Beninger]

The summer of 2012 was a mess, culminating in the total farce of deadline day where we're trying to flog Henderson to Fulham to get Dempsey. Back then we were in a real transition with a lot of new staff. Much of it was corrected in January 2013 and you'd hoped we'd learnt our lessons both from that and the previous few FSG windows.

Then summer 2013 we can't attract the players we wanted with lack of European football blamed. We were inactive in January, with the pursuits of Salah and Konopylanka ending in farce and briefings that the committee couldn't find defenders.

The summer of 2014 and we're back in the CL, just missed out on the title and this was our chance to push on. Instead we lost our best player and couldn't attract any proven genuine quality (2009 all over again in other words). We didn't sign a player we couldn't have got the year before and strategy wise most of the signings offered more questions than offers.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

Right now we're coming off a 2nd place finish, stuttering a bit this season and still we're on for 4th in maybe the most competitive league in the world.  Looking at individual players, I don't really think we're doing that bad.  Maybe Rodgers has an issue with finding the right defenders and setting them up, but it hasn't been that bad IMO.

[harryc]

Coutinho showing glimpses of what he is capable of doing. Can only be positive with him and Raheem getting back to form.

[MC14]

I still have faith in Balotelli, even though he can be frustrating. I think it was unfortunate for him that Sturridge got injured, instant added pressure

[killer-heels]

I still have faith in Balotelli, even though he can be frustrating. I think it was unfortunate for him that Sturridge got injured, instant added pressure

He needs to deal with it, he is an experienced international.

[killer-heels]

Rodgers turned up as a manager with a philosophy and way of playing that he was obsessed by and had his dossiers to back up. What we're seeing though is more Keegan football. We play off the cuff, we can't defend and we don't control games. Our only form of defence is attack, if we sit back we'll always concede and we struggle to keep the ball which was Rodgers raison d'etre when he arrived.

We have no identity. We stumbled on one in the second half of last season but now are in another identity crisis where we're neither one thing or the other.

To say what we were or are is Keegan-esque is just silly.

[jonnypb]

I'm losing patience with balotelli. I do think tho that he will be more effective playing alongside sturridge. The only problem with that is that's another month away and the clock is ticking on him.

I really hope we get a top class striker in January that looks as if they want to be here.

[Juanyboy]

Rodgers turned up as a manager with a philosophy and way of playing that he was obsessed by and had his dossiers to back up. What we're seeing though is more Keegan football. We play off the cuff, we can't defend and we don't control games. Our only form of defence is attack, if we sit back we'll always concede and we struggle to keep the ball which was Rodgers raison d'etre when he arrived.

We have no identity. We stumbled on one in the second half of last season but now are in another identity crisis where we're neither one thing or the other.

Our identity is made up by a number of elements, namely our 11 players on the pitch....these players have been changed and moved around, hence our 'identity' will also change, and take some time to come back to being a cohesive unit.

Not really that hard to understand, right? 8 games in, it's been hard but let's be reasonable.


PS: forgot to mention that we've also lost one of the best players in the world.

[kevin87]

I'd honestly start playing Fabio up top with Mario now. He isn't the greatest, but his movement is good and he will press the opposition and work his socks off.

absolutley seconded,

whatever peoples views on his technical ability and finishing are... he does have the ability to "break the lines" and pull defenders with him. He still might not score but I think he's our best chance of allowing others to get some goals

[KirkVanHouten]

He's got 14 goals in 54 games in Italy from open play.

He's got 1 goal in his last 20 Premier League games.

He's got one assist in his entire Premier League career.

He's not the Italian Downing, but he's pretty close to being the Italian version of Fernando Torres post LFC.

I'm not sure if our transfer committee or Rodgers had even watched him play or of they just saw his goal record for Milan. My problem is that the narrative around him was all this talent not being used. From what I've seen for us and other teams is that he just isn't that good. He scores a wonder goal every once and a while and a shitload of pens.

We fucked up replacing Suarez. I've said it for a while but I still don't understand our transfer policy. It looks like we just tried to get bodies in without any system in mind.

[JackWard33]

absolutley seconded,

whatever peoples views on his technical ability and finishing are... he does have the ability to "break the lines" and pull defenders with him. He still might not score but I think he's our best chance of allowing others to get some goals

He absolutely does not have the ability to 'break the lines' - I have no clue where his reputation for 'good movement' comes from. He moves a lot but it's generally headless chicken stuff
He gets off very few shots and almost none of them are in threatening areas.
Borini is suffering from the Babel/Pacheco/Suso phenomena when an attacking player becomes the answer by not playing
Balotelli playing like he is right now (which by the way is nowhere near as bad as people believe) is a million miles better than Borini at his best

Our strength in attack comes from our direct attacking midfielders who actually can break the lines - henderson, lallana, sterling (with coutinho behind) - we need to be making the most of those players. Can't see how Borini or Lambert improve our team in any way

[kcbworth]

Borini is suffering from the Babel/Pacheco/Suso phenomena when an attacking player becomes the answer by not playing

Suso? Wtf

Seriously...

Balotelli playing like he is right now (which by the way is nowhere near as bad as people believe) is a million miles better than Borini at his best

Where do you get this stuff from? What are you basing this on?

[JackWard33]

Suso? Wtf

Seriously...

Where do you get this stuff from? What are you basing this on?

I'm talking about the general phenomena that people over rate players because their not playing when things aren't going well as 'the answer'
My argument is that Balotelli is the best striker at the club when Sturridge isn't available and that changing him will worsen not improve the team
Thought it was pretty clear but obv not

[Zoomers]

I thought he was more clinical than this, those 2 sitters still baffle.

[Zelnaga]

Mario would of had two tap ins today but QPR defenders took them for him.

I love Mario, but no excuses from him missing an open sitter at 6 yards where he blazed it over!

[Zelnaga]

Balotelli playing like he is right now (which by the way is nowhere near as bad as people believe) is a million miles better than Borini at his best

Whatever your smoking ill have some of it. Watch his Sunderland performances.

[JackWard33]

Whatever your smoking ill have some of it. Watch his Sunderland performances.

I have. He isn't good enough - I've posted on this before so at the risk being repetitive ...
His underlying numbers at Sunderland were barely PL level let alone our level - the problem he has almost no end product, he doesn't affect games - he barely shoots, when he does it isn't from threatening positions or accurately. He has almost no goal involvement over a season as a scorer or a provider
All he brings you is a decent defensive level for a forward player
There are reasons we were trying to shift him this summer

[NorthamptonKopite]

I also still think Balotelli will come good. He's a confidence player like most strikers. He needs a couple goals to settle his nerves and he'll be good for us. You can talk about his work rate all you want (which is far better than most make out) but if he'd have scored a few of the chances so far he's missed, people wouldn't care. The fact is it's got to his head now which is forcing pressure upon himself causing him to be rash, snap at chances and generally try to force things too much.

Its infuriating but patience is needed, I still have a lot of faith he will score a lot of goals for us.

[kcbworth]

I'm talking about the general phenomena that people over rate players because their not playing when things aren't going well as 'the answer'
My argument is that Balotelli is the best striker at the club when Sturridge isn't available and that changing him will worsen not improve the team
Thought it was pretty clear but obv not

Pacheco and Suso weren't seen as "the answer" at any point... they were (or in Suso's case, are) seen as great prospects who have done well in their limited opportunities and it sometimes baffles that they don't get more opportunities to continue to develop.

I don't think anyone seriously has considered them "the answer".

RE Borini - I cannot comprehend that he could have done worse than Balotelli in that game yesterday. If being better than absolutely shite is seen as "the answer', then sure, Borini is the answer.

---

Anyway how good was Coutinho when he came on I think the secret to our success this year will be figuring out how to maximise the talent of Coutinho, Lallana, and Sterling at the same time. A big part of that will be Allen and Henderson I believe.

[Max_powers]

I thought we looked decent as a team today while on counter. There were players always trying to get inside the box and break quickly. Even Balotelli who was very poor today did get in goalscoring positions and made some good runs. Like it has been the theme this season the final pass was generally poor but if keep doing the basics well I do think it will click.

[Alonso_The_Assassin]

I also still think Balotelli will come good. He's a confidence player like most strikers. He needs a couple goals to settle his nerves and he'll be good for us. You can talk about his work rate all you want (which is far better than most make out) but if he'd have scored a few of the chances so far he's missed, people wouldn't care. The fact is it's got to his head now which is forcing pressure upon himself causing him to be rash, snap at chances and generally try to force things too much.

Its infuriating but patience is needed, I still have a lot of faith he will score a lot of goals for us.

Tend to agree with you, mate. I think with Phil coming back into some form will help Ballotelli's chances, particularly if he continues playing down the middle and not coming in from the flanks.

[Reese]

I thought he was more clinical than this, those 2 sitters still baffle.

Where are people getting these two sitters from? Yeah he should have done better with the first, but it was also a snapshot at height. As for the second, the one where he was infront of the post and tried to backheel/flick it in? I dont understand how that can be considered a sitter.

Mario's inability to put the ball in the net besides, let's not make him the scapegoat for our inability to put a string of passes together for much of the game and a decent chunk of this season.

It is even worse that for some reason we have digressed to long balls, even though we only have one up front. Plus for all his scoring woes at the moment, he has actually provided quite a few players with quality chances who have failed to convert (just like him), but he is getting all the stick. (That's not directed at you Zoomers)

But really though, it paints a pretty clear picture to where Lambert and Borini stand when they can't even get a game or get on the bench. I'd be shocked if we don't pick up a striker in the winter, likely to replace Borini but be a viable 2nd or 3rd option to partner with Balo or Sturridge.

[telekon]

If the idea really was to have Balotelli just slot into the Suarez-shaped hole rather than have to have the team rearranged around him to suit his style, whoever made that call needs shooting, never mind sacking.

Most of us knew it'd be all about how to tease out the talent with our high energy zooming around him, not replacing what Suarez brings (which would be more up to Sturridge, Sterling, Lallana and maybe Markovic - if he developed well here - all in conjunction, but is pretty much impossible in fairness anyway as he's a very rare talent when you take all his attributes into consideration), and was essentially a gambit. There has to be a plan, and most of us've just presumed that involves a regular Sturridge-Balotelli strike partnership... so we haven't had chance to test the plan much yet, have we. He's not giving good signs that he can learn to lead the line on his own in Dan's absence though, which many hoped could be a possible option when needs must.


It'd be lovely if we could unearth a young Suarez somewhere, itchy teeth and all, but he's probably  a unique mix of strengths (and bewildering weaknesses) in the modern game.

Was looking at that lad Vargas today and thought exactly that. Obviousöy he's no Suarex but he's got that unique technique mixed with a never say die attitude. We could have used him or someone like him at Liverpool.

[keyo]

Mario would of had two tap ins today but QPR defenders took them for him.

as opposed to the one he missed?

[jonytoe]

He should have scored that chance he had, that is something I definitely agree with, although I am definitely not writing him off, these things do happen to even the best players. If he had scored a couple more already there would be less uproar about it but the time it has taken and the lack of goals is creating reason for people to justify negative views they initially may have feared.

The truth is along with our new players, after our performances last season, we are walking around with a target on our backs and because Sturridge has been out Balotelli has unfortunately copped the brunt of it. Every team has come out to stifle us and slow the game down in order to frustrate us and kill off what was our strength in having quick starts. Add to this Balotelli's reputation and the fact that he is a lone striker and the amount of aggressiveness that is being dished out by defenders on Balotelli is quite intense. I am from Australia and I was watching it here and the co-commentator was Brad Freidel who shared some insight into what teams discuss in terms of how to handle Balotelli, and what he basically said was they just are told to be very aggressive with him and get him frustrated. They know it puts him off his game.

I think we need to give our team and Balotelli the time to adapt to this new challenge of being a 'top team' who needs to deal with these tactics and the sort of attention. In the mean time I also look at the positives and the simple fact of the matter is whenever we broke in behind the line Balotelli was there offering a square ball along side our other attacker providing an option to either draw attention or receive the ball and that definitely did contribute to the two own goals. The other positive is when Coutinho, Sterling and Henderson link up our transition and counter attack is lightning!

[Loo Pan]

I have. He isn't good enough - I've posted on this before so at the risk being repetitive ...

His underlying numbers at Sunderland were barely PL level let alone our level - the problem he has almost no end product, he doesn't affect games - he barely shoots, when he does it isn't from threatening positions or accurately. He has almost no goal involvement over a season as a scorer or a provider....

Reckon it might be worth giving Borini a go...

[gjr1]

We all knew that signing Mario would be a risk.

Looks like that risk is not paying off.

If he can't play up front on his own (or in the system we're currently playing) we need to use a different option.

Perhaps we should play a 'false 9' with either Phil or Raheem?

[ThePoolMan]

A silver lining is that Coutinho looks like he is finally returning to some level of form...hopefully it is not because QPR was naively playing too openly against him at that stage in the match...

[Xxavi]

True - which is why he seemed a strange signing for us.

I think BR fancied himself as someone who could change him (remember all that "I don't defend corners"..."er, you do now" business?).

Based on the evidence so far, he hasn't changed him at all.

May be Rodgers expected that Mario would be saying "fuck you" to him and team mates, and setting the dining room on fire occasionally. So when he saw Mario being quite, he probably started thinking he is changing him.

I don't doubt that Mario Balotelli would eventually stop his stupid off the pitch antics as he gets older. But I think he just cannot change himself on the pitch. And Rodgers wouldn't be able to change him either. It is his nature, that is basically him and not much can be done.

Regarding those who are saying Balotelli would have scored 2 goals had it not been own goals. Well, he didn't score a tap in chance he had, why is it now guaranteed that he would have scored those 2 own goals? As the article above shows in pictures, he should have been running a different channel and scoring those 2 goals by himself, instead of hiding behind the defenders. You cannot expect defenders to be letting that ball past them, and if this is how he expects to score, he won't get many.

[Haggis36]

Balotelli isn't working but we really don't have much choice at the moment.

Baffled by people wanting to play Borini up top with him though. Apart from the bizarre board-wide clamour for two up top, even if Balotelli does play better with a partner, you're just taking away another player from the team to replace him with someone totally ineffectual in the hopes it might click. It would, most probably, mean playing just one of Coutinho, Sterling, Lallana and Markovic - all of these players are better than Borini. By extremes, in some cases. You're sacrificing far superior players to try and get the best out of Balotelli, who is unlikely to pull up trees even if we build the whole side around him (which we absolutely should not do anyway). The degree to which he might improve Balotelli's game would almost certainly be more than offset by the loss of better, more creative players.

[Xxavi]

Was looking at that lad Vargas today and thought exactly that. Obviousöy he's no Suarex but he's got that unique technique mixed with a never say die attitude. We could have used him or someone like him at Liverpool.

I am liking Vargas, too. He looked good at Valencia, he looks good in Premier League now. And he looked good in the World Cup matches.

Cannot ask for more. However, he is a bit lightweight, and he doesn't seem like a pure striker. Still much better than current Liverpool options, it seems.