Author Topic: Malaysian passenger plane reportedly shot down. (Read 62710 times)

JongWK · « **Reply #40 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:15:21 pm »

This is a Buk, for those wondering. It's a Soviet-era SAM.

Les Willis · « **Reply #41 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:15:59 pm »

Unbelievable. Obviously shot down by mistake. That wont console the friends and relatives of the passengers.

JohnHobbes · « **Reply #42 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:16:19 pm »

Quote from: Macphisto80 on July 17, 2014, 05:11:21 pm

Yeah, so doesn't that more or less point to a smoking gun? If it was the Russians, surely they should be trying to identify the aircraft before they fire a missile at it.

According to reports it's likely to have been the pro-Russian rebels, who downed an Ukrainian transport plane a week or so ago, and who probably didn't bother checking in this case if it was another Ukrainian transport plane flying higher than normal or an international airliner.

Sir Psycho Sexy · « **Reply #43 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:16:51 pm »

Quote from: Les Willis on July 17, 2014, 05:15:59 pm

Unbelievable. Obviously shot down by mistake. That wont console the friends and relatives of the passengers.

Unless this is a woosh, what makes you say that?

Broad Spectrum · « **Reply #44 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:18:16 pm »

Quote from: Sir Psycho Sexy on July 17, 2014, 05:16:51 pm

Unless this is a woosh, what makes you say that?

Well what good would come from shooting down an Asian airliner in relation to the conflict between Russia and Ukraine?

Les Willis · « **Reply #45 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:19:29 pm »

Quote from: Sir Psycho Sexy on July 17, 2014, 05:16:51 pm

Unless this is a woosh, what makes you say that?

It was a typo. But when I say mistake, or accident I mean that they wouldn't be targeting a commercial airliner on purpose.

Macphisto80 · « **Reply #46 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:19:57 pm »

Quote from: JongWK on July 17, 2014, 05:15:21 pm

This is a Buk, for those wondering. It's a Soviet-era SAM.

That's some heavy gear. Not your standard rebel weaponry.

Red Beret · « **Reply #47 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:20:52 pm »

Well it's unlikely both sides will try to blame each other - seems on the basis of current evidence the pro-Russian rebels are responsible. Also sounds as though the plane was still climbing to cruise altitude - that's about 50,000 ft isn't it?

JongWK · « **Reply #48 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:21:16 pm »

Quote from: Macphisto80 on July 17, 2014, 05:19:57 pm

That's some heavy gear. Not your standard rebel weaponry.

Actually it's pretty common. Even Hezbollah has them.

sms1986 · « **Reply #49 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:21:16 pm »

Awful news, I hope the truth can be found out regardless of who it might or might not implicate as being to blame, if there is blame to be applied.

RIP to those on board the plane.

Sir Psycho Sexy · « **Reply #50 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:21:59 pm »

Quote from: Broad Spectrum on July 17, 2014, 05:18:16 pm

Well what good would come from shooting down an Asian airliner in relation to the conflict between Russia and Ukraine?

Ok, I get you, but it was obviously an intentional attempt to down it. I don't know why they would do that without checking to see what plane it was (assuming they can do that?)

Quote from: Les Willis on July 17, 2014, 05:19:29 pm

It was a typo. But when I say mistake, or accident I mean that they wouldn't be targeting a commercial airliner on purpose.

yeah, got you now

red_lfc_costello · « **Reply #51 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:22:17 pm »

Quote from: Red Beret on July 17, 2014, 05:20:52 pm

Well it's unlikely both sides will try to blame each other - seems on the basis of current evidence the pro-Russian rebels are responsible. Also sounds as though the plane was still climbing to cruise altitude - that's about 50,000 ft isn't it?

im no expert, but its usually around 33,000-36,000 feet, very rarely over 40,000 if ever.

AB LFC · « **Reply #52 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:24:28 pm »

Quote from: Red Beret on July 17, 2014, 05:20:52 pm

Well it's unlikely both sides will try to blame each other - seems on the basis of current evidence the pro-Russian rebels are responsible. Also sounds as though the plane was still climbing to cruise altitude - that's about 50,000 ft isn't it?

It wouldn't go that high. It'd probably have been trying to reach around 38,000 - 42,000ft.

Ray K · « **Reply #53 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:26:03 pm »

Quote from: Red Beret on July 17, 2014, 05:20:52 pm

Well it's unlikely both sides will try to blame each other - seems on the basis of current evidence the pro-Russian rebels are responsible. Also sounds as though the plane was still climbing to cruise altitude - that's about 50,000 ft isn't it?

Seems like it was cruising at 33,000 feet as it had been squawking at that altitude for at least 15 mins.

Awful, awful news. Rest in Peace those on board.

Macphisto80 · « **Reply #54 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:26:18 pm »

Quote from: JongWK on July 17, 2014, 05:21:16 pm

Actually it's pretty common. Even Hezbollah has them.

Yeah, but technically those are part of a country's arsenal. These are rogue soldiers/separatists/terrorist, pick your label. Heavy duty, complex weaponry that you don't find your average balaclava wearing fighter operating.

Number 7 · « **Reply #55 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:28:08 pm »

This is terrible.

Someone is going to have to do a lot of explaining here.

Feel for everyone involved. Passengers and families.

IndianRed · « **Reply #56 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:30:07 pm »

RIP to all those on board. Can't begin to imagine what their families are going through right now. I hope the bastards behind this disgusting, barbaric and heinous crime are made to pay for it.

TepidT2O · « **Reply #57 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:30:45 pm »

Let's wait and see.

Facts often get muddled when news like this breaks.

Let's jump to no conclusions or make any assumptions.

JongWK · « **Reply #58 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:31:54 pm »

I am leaning towards the "fog of war causing a tragic accident" theory. I don't think anyone in the area would have shot it down if they knew it was a regular commercial flight.

RedInside · « **Reply #59 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:32:51 pm »

Is it a mistake or is someone trying to escalate the conflict even more? Terrible news this.

DerKaiser · « **Reply #60 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:36:44 pm »

Do the seperatists have the weapon systems capable of bringing down a plane from 30000 ft?

Macphisto80 · « **Reply #61 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:37:56 pm »

Quote from: DerKaiser on July 17, 2014, 05:36:44 pm

Do the seperatists have the weapon systems capable of bringing down a plane from 10000 ft?

From the looks of it, they do now. So, who gave them the goods?

JohnHobbes · « **Reply #62 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:37:57 pm »

Quote from: Macphisto80 on July 17, 2014, 05:26:18 pm

Yeah, but technically those are part of a country's arsenal. These are rogue soldiers/separatists/terrorist, pick your label. Heavy duty, complex weaponry that you don't find your average balaclava wearing fighter operating.

The suggestion is that they've been supplied tanks and other heavy weaponry from Russia.

They've already shot down a Ukrainian AN-26 transport plane (plus a helicopter and SU-25 fighter), so shooting down an airliner which has no chaff/flares would have been even easier.

PhilV · « **Reply #63 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:38:31 pm »

Looking at that flight radar map someone posted, the airspace is still quite busy in that region, why did they pick that plane out of all of them... pure chance?

So sad.

Zizou · « **Reply #64 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:40:30 pm »

All because some big boys wanted to play soldier. Fucking imbeciles. RIP to those on board

Carly · « **Reply #65 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:42:04 pm »

Quote from: Macphisto80 on July 17, 2014, 05:37:56 pm

From the looks of it, they do now. So, who gave them the goods?

Macphisto80 · « **Reply #66 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:43:17 pm »

Quote from: JohnHobbes on July 17, 2014, 05:37:57 pm

The suggestion is that they've been supplied tanks and other heavy weaponry from Russia.

They've already shot down a Ukrainian AN-26 transport plane (plus a helicopter and SU-25 fighter), so shooting down an airliner which has no chaff/flares would have been even easier.

I'd say it's more than a suggestion going by the video shown a few weeks ago of tanks coming from Russia and being driven into Ukraine. These lot appear to be just going into to military bases and having their pick. it's mad. If it turns out to be the case that it was the Russian faction in Ukraine, then Russia itself has a lot to answer for. They're as guilty as anyone.

armchair-fan · « **Reply #67 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:47:18 pm »

Quote from: Macphisto80 on July 17, 2014, 05:37:56 pm

From the looks of it, they do now. So, who gave them the goods?

I don't think we need to be experts to figure out who is supplying the arms to the pro-Russians 'rebels'.

Red Beret · « **Reply #68 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:49:22 pm »

Thank you for the correction on the altitude people.

Seems likely this is the result of some trigger happy idiot who couldn't be bothered to check his target before he fired.

Macphisto80 · « **Reply #69 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:51:32 pm »

Quote from: armchair-fan on July 17, 2014, 05:47:18 pm

I don't think we need to be experts to figure out who is supplying the arms to the pro-Russians 'rebels'.

That was sort of the point.

eirwen · « **Reply #70 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:53:00 pm »

This is just crazy. Why have airlines not changed their routes to avoid war zones?

JongWK · « **Reply #71 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:54:06 pm »

Russian media had reported some time ago that the rebels had Buk missiles:

http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1287030

The AP says that one of its journalists saw a launcher that resembled a Russian BUK system near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier today. The Russian network TV Zvezda, the news network for the Russian military, reported that a Buk fell to separatist hands on June 29th (same day as the Itar Tass report above). So even if Russia didn't supply it to the rebels, they definitely had access to these missiles.

JohnHobbes · « **Reply #72 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:56:24 pm »

Quote from: Macphisto80 on July 17, 2014, 05:43:17 pm

I'd say it's more than a suggestion going by the video shown a few weeks ago of tanks coming from Russia and being driven into Ukraine. These lot appear to be just going into to military bases and having their pick. it's mad. If it turns out to be the case that it was the Russian faction in Ukraine, then Russia itself has a lot to answer for. They're as guilty as anyone.

I think it's certain too but I kept it as "suggestion" as I'd not been keeping track of developments since those tank videos, and wasn't sure how conclusive the evidence was now.

The fact that Putin vehemently denied any of his special forces went into Crimea but then awarded medals to them later, makes me think any pledge about none of his forces being in Ukraine/no matériel being supplied is utter bollocks.

Red Beret · « **Reply #73 on:** July 17, 2014, 06:01:13 pm »

Quote from: eirwen on July 17, 2014, 05:53:00 pm

This is just crazy. Why have airlines not changed their routes to avoid war zones?

Money.

Longer flight times, more fuel consumption etc.

Just read up on the KAL 007 that was mentioned earlier and there was a big stink kicked up by the airline companies about the the air corridor the flight used being closed for a month, as it was the shortest route between Alaska and the Far East.

HighSix · « **Reply #74 on:** July 17, 2014, 06:08:31 pm »

Awful news & the pictures on twitter are terrible. Thoughts with the familys involved.

Naively I didn't realise you could shoot down a plane at such a height without a drone, radar or something like that.... & if they could strange passenger planes fly over such risky areas.

JerseyKloppite · « **Reply #75 on:** July 17, 2014, 06:08:39 pm »

So the rebels are blaming the Ukrainian government.

Why on earth would Ukraine blow up a plane - the rebels don't have an Air Force.

The only reason to do it would be to stitch up the rebels and ensure international condemnation, but that would be an unimaginable, 9/11 conspiracy theory risk. Not credible unless I'm missing something.

viteslesrouges · « **Reply #76 on:** July 17, 2014, 06:09:16 pm »

Quote from: JongWK on July 17, 2014, 05:54:06 pm

Russian media had reported some time ago that the rebels had Buk missiles:

http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1287030

The AP says that one of its journalists saw a launcher that resembled a Russian BUK system near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier today. The Russian network TV Zvezda, the news network for the Russian military, reported that a Buk fell to separatist hands on June 29th (same day as the Itar Tass report above). So even if Russia didn't supply it to the rebels, they definitely had access to these missiles.

Most of the hardware the separatists have is probably from the Ukrainian army, either captured or brought over by defecting troops. Slavyansk has a massive military storage depot, hence the struggle to control it and the Donbass has thousands of military veterans so the separatists could well have guys proficient in the use of anything they can get hold of.

Why would anyone shoot down a plane at 30,000 + ft. ?

Terrible news.

Red_Irishman · « **Reply #77 on:** July 17, 2014, 06:22:05 pm »

This is fucking crazy.

RIP to everyone on board.

Not that it makes a difference what the nationality of the victims are, I bet there is some Uk and Irish people on there. Very popular route.

Anywhichwayicant · « **Reply #78 on:** July 17, 2014, 06:24:23 pm »

Quote from: JerseyKopite on July 17, 2014, 06:08:39 pm

So the rebels are blaming the Ukrainian government.

Why on earth would Ukraine blow up a plane - the rebels don't have an Air Force.

The only reason to do it would be to stitch up the rebels and ensure international condemnation, but that would be an unimaginable, 9/11 conspiracy theory risk. Not credible unless I'm missing something.

Why would it be unimaginable?

CornerFlag · « **Reply #79 on:** July 17, 2014, 06:26:58 pm »

Absolutely crazy, so much speculation but not going to comment on any of it until things are more confirmed. RIP the 295 who have lost their life.