Author Topic: Liverpool's Midfield  (Read 1106140 times)

Offline deFacto

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16320 on: September 24, 2019, 03:58:53 AM »
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Interesting that lallana started in the midfield in all the big away wins that we had in 2016/7.  This doesn't prove me right, but it certainly adds to my case.

Without goals or assists in said matches, he isnt impacting the outcome of the match. Keeping in mind that we didn't have the fullbacks we do today at that  particular time.

Quote
I don't know about depth, we probably have more 1st team squad midfielders than they do (we just choose not to select certain people in the big away games), but City certainly have more strength in quality and this is an area, we need to address this going forward IMO

They have more midfielders who are capable of scoring goals as they've done through out their career, they have several midfielders with similar technical ability and creativity, there is a significant difference between us and in them in that regard. That's why I said it was redundant to compare the two.

Their depth in attacking positions succeeds ours.  Last year they had Aguero,Sterling,Jesus,Mahrez,Bernando Silva,Sane competing for 3 attacking positions in the final third [you can even play David Silva in the front 3 as he's played there in his career before] and the drop of in quality when they rotate is very very minimal.

We had Mane,Firmino,Salah,Shaqiri,Origi and Sturridge. Ox was injured all year but he's ineffective in a front 3, as is Lallana [who was also injured all year].  That's a massive difference. They can afford to have that while we can't. There is a massive gap in quality between our starting front three and everyone else I listed in there.

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You seem to be suggesting us winning 2 out of 12 big aways in the league and losing more(5) than we win away(2) in the champions league, is largely down to missed chances, bad luck, unlucky fixture scheduling in approx 20 fixtures over 2 yrs, I think our approach is a bigger issue, I hope, I'm right as that is something we can fix, I believe there is a trend, that we can and should address.

Each game is different from one to the next, particularly when it comes to fixtures of that magnitude. The approach isn't always the same, and us winning 2 out of 12 big aways isn't SOLELY ON THE MIDFIELD APPROACH. That's my argument. It's not one individual reason. I've watched every single one of those games and the results we've gotten aren't because of the midfield in each and every one of those fixtures. I've specifically said that there are number of reasons and that there are fine margins. Your argument on the other hand it's down to the cautious midfield approach. There is context in every one of those matches.

For instance, in that statistic that you're providing, away matches to Chelsea,Everton [2018] are included, both which occurred in the last 4 games of the season whilst we were making our way to a European cup final, and we were running on fumes, it was impossible for us to rotate as we only had 3 fit midfielders at the time and we had to play them in every match for the last 2 months of the season [The only fit midfielders were Henderson,Milner and Wijnaldum] So the context in those matches is far different to us playing Chelsea last year at the Bridge where the match was open and could have done either way [it certainly wasn't a cautious approach]

Then there's the 3-3 match against Arsenal in which we had a 2-0 lead. The points certainly weren't dropped because we were cautious in that match. Our defending was poor, the lack of midfield protection was poor and Mignolet gifted them a goal as well 35 yards out.
There have been good performances, good enough performances to get more than we did Again that has nothing to do with the cautious away approach.

Again I am not saying that we cant improve or that there haven't been poor displays in some of those matches but the notion that a cautious approach took place in 12 away matches is incorrect.



Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16321 on: September 24, 2019, 10:27:47 AM »
Worth pointing out that Lallana contributed 8 league goals & 7 league assists from midfield in 2016/17 - not sure how many of them were in big games, and our full-backs certainly bomb on more now, but I wouldn't mind a contribution closer to that from midfield now.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 10:37:17 AM by LallanaInPyjamas »
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16322 on: September 24, 2019, 10:37:54 AM »
Worth pointing out that Lallana contributed 8 league goals & 7 league assists from midfield in 2016/17 - not sure how many of them were in big games but I wouldn't mind that sort of contribution from midfield now.

Scored away at Arsenal on the first day of the season. That was his only goal against the ‘top 6’ that season.

Not sure about assists.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16323 on: September 24, 2019, 10:52:46 AM »
Scored away at Arsenal on the first day of the season. That was his only goal against the ‘top 6’ that season.

Not sure about assists.

Yeah sounds about right. Think him and Gini both scored in that crucial game against Boro on the last day of the season.

There's no doubt our full-backs bomb on more now than Milner and Clyne did that season, so our midfielders spend more time protecting the counter. But equally I think the growing narrative on here that they therefore shouldn't be expected to chip in isn't quite right. The truth is none of our midfielders really possess a great shot or a great killer ball (or even a great cross) on them. Ox has shown glimpses of the former and Keita glimpses of the latter throughout their careers but not consistently. Gini is having fewer shots now than he did in 2016/17 - but he is still getting at least one in a game on average, and tends to fluff his lines more often than not. Henderson has rarely shown composure or technique in front of goal.

How much all of this matters is a good debate...but I'm not sure the 97 point laurel can be rested on forever. A player who can bang a few goals or assists to help the front three would be extremely useful, particularly in big games where they've regularly looked isolated.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 10:55:57 AM by LallanaInPyjamas »
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Offline Bjornar

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16324 on: September 24, 2019, 09:36:15 PM »
Our midfield is incredible. I'm appreciating it more and more each game

I agree, and fantastic post, which captures what the people going 'look at the stats, our midfielders aren't producing as they should' are missing IMO. LFC under Klopp have arrived at solutions gradually through trial and error, and if it weren't for those solutions we'd be back in the pack with the rest of them gawking at City in a mixture of admiration and contempt (because of the financial doping). The last thing we want to be doing is to be throwing away what got us to this point by trying to do things in a more conventional or textbook way instead, or becoming a second rate City by trying to copy them. The 'let's just add more goals to what we're already doing' argument completely overlooks the question of team balance (which Klopp seems obsessed about), and doesn't' IMO seem realistic at all.
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Offline xRedmanLFCx

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16325 on: September 24, 2019, 09:55:47 PM »
Yeah sounds about right. Think him and Gini both scored in that crucial game against Boro on the last day of the season.

There's no doubt our full-backs bomb on more now than Milner and Clyne did that season, so our midfielders spend more time protecting the counter. But equally I think the growing narrative on here that they therefore shouldn't be expected to chip in isn't quite right. The truth is none of our midfielders really possess a great shot or a great killer ball (or even a great cross) on them. Ox has shown glimpses of the former and Keita glimpses of the latter throughout their careers but not consistently. Gini is having fewer shots now than he did in 2016/17 - but he is still getting at least one in a game on average, and tends to fluff his lines more often than not. Henderson has rarely shown composure or technique in front of goal.

How much all of this matters is a good debate...but I'm not sure the 97 point laurel can be rested on forever. A player who can bang a few goals or assists to help the front three would be extremely useful, particularly in big games where they've regularly looked isolated.

Henderson's goal away to Chelsea a few years ago was sublime. He hasn't scored many in the last few years, but he is definitely capable.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16326 on: September 25, 2019, 09:15:13 AM »
I agree, and fantastic post, which captures what the people going 'look at the stats, our midfielders aren't producing as they should' are missing IMO. LFC under Klopp have arrived at solutions gradually through trial and error, and if it weren't for those solutions we'd be back in the pack with the rest of them gawking at City in a mixture of admiration and contempt (because of the financial doping). The last thing we want to be doing is to be throwing away what got us to this point by trying to do things in a more conventional or textbook way instead, or becoming a second rate City by trying to copy them. The 'let's just add more goals to what we're already doing' argument completely overlooks the question of team balance (which Klopp seems obsessed about), and doesn't' IMO seem realistic at all.

Exactly. Great post.

We used to be vulnerable on the counter then our midfield was tasked with preventing that, and now we aren't.

Interestingly this season we have tweaked things a bit tactically by playing a higher line, but our 8s and Fab are seeming to be a bit more involved in the offensive third. I don't know if stats back that up though.
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Offline Knight

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16327 on: September 25, 2019, 12:48:15 PM »
It seems to me that ball progression is a big problem against better sides. When we play workmanlike midfields we struggle to progress the ball through our midfield 3, and then Firmino has to come deeper and deeper to get the ball, ending up almost as another 8 rather than a 10  (Babuyagu, formally of this parish, has made this point recently in his live tweets of games) and Salah and Mane don't get it in dangerous places. The issue with our midfield 3 isn't, then, so much about a lack of goals and assists when we play the top 6, it's about an inability to progress the ball once we come up against the better sides. A Lallana type in a midfield 3 (although not current Lallana), offers hockey assists (the pass before the assist), and moves the ball up the pitch through vertical passing and dribbling. Plus they offer Fabinho, the fullbacks and Matip vertical passing options by being willing to take up positions 'inside' the opponent's shape. Of course, if we were playing CMs with these abilities, they would as a matter of course pick up assists, because they'd be getting the ball in positions where it'd be possible to hurt the opposition. Fabinho, Gini and Henderson are very unlikely, when we're attempting to progress the ball from back to front, to receive the ball in a position where they can hurt the opposition.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 12:51:12 PM by Knight »

Offline deFacto

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16328 on: September 25, 2019, 01:05:33 PM »
Imagine not being able to progress the ball further up the pitch against the better sides but having won the European cup and made it to two consecutive European cup finals.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16329 on: September 25, 2019, 01:06:41 PM »
Imagine not being able to progress the ball further up the pitch against the better sides but having won the European cup and made it to two consecutive European cup finals.

No no better teams, like Everton and Wolves.

Offline wige

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16330 on: September 25, 2019, 05:10:41 PM »
Imagine not being able to progress the ball further up the pitch against the better sides but having won the European cup and made it to two consecutive European cup finals.

I take your point and there's no way it's been a consistent issue in every game or even a majority, but I remember watching the Madrid final in particular and thinking it highlighted a struggle to play through the midfield. I think the club saw similar as the Keita deal was completed and we added Fabinho as well - having already brought in Oxlaide-Chamberlain during that season and by all accounts targetted Fekir as well - settlling for Shaqiri instead to play in an advanced midfield type of role.

In the Spurs final I don't recall too many instances of any of the team stringing more than 3 or 4 passes together.

Whether playing through the midfield is something we really target doing is another thing - seems to me most of our build up play in midfield is quick recycling of the ball and ideally getting our fullbacks on it wide who look to link with Bobby or whichever of Mo/Mane they're with. Fabinho and the centre-halves also primarily create triangles with the full backs and when the vertical passes are made, it tends to be in the right/left sided half space for Bobby, or and advanced 8 who's immediately looking to link up with the forwards, or, again (a theme) play the advanced full backs in.

Our style of play is different to cities, and I don't think we put anywhere near as much emphasis on playing through the midfield - we play through our fullbacks much more - and look to get it into advanced areas and the feet of Bobby, Mane and Mo much more regularly. City's game, as an example, or take a Barcelona/CL finalists Madrid - are looking much more to move the ball around more, probing and pulling, looking for a killer pass.

I don't think it's too unreasonable the point that was being made - that our midfield looks a lot better, at least in terms of creativity and penetration when there's that Lallana "type" in it - which I'd add Ox, Keita and, to a lesser extent, Shaqiri too.

Offline deFacto

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16331 on: September 25, 2019, 05:14:17 PM »
I take your point and there's no way it's been a consistent issue in every game or even a majority, but I remember watching the Madrid final in particular and thinking it highlighted a struggle to play through the midfield. I think the club saw similar as the Keita deal was completed and we added Fabinho as well - having already brought in Oxlaide-Chamberlain during that season and by all accounts targetted Fekir as well - settlling for Shaqiri instead to play in an advanced midfield type of role.

In the Spurs final I don't recall too many instances of any of the team stringing more than 3 or 4 passes together.

Whether playing through the midfield is something we really target doing is another thing - seems to me most of our build up play in midfield is quick recycling of the ball and ideally getting our fullbacks on it wide who look to link with Bobby or whichever of Mo/Mane they're with. Fabinho and the centre-halves also primarily create triangles with the full backs and when the vertical passes are made, it tends to be in the right/left sided half space for Bobby, or and advanced 8 who's immediately looking to link up with the forwards, or, again (a theme) play the advanced full backs in.

Our style of play is different to cities, and I don't think we put anywhere near as much emphasis on playing through the midfield - we play through our fullbacks much more - and look to get it into advanced areas and the feet of Bobby, Mane and Mo much more regularly. City's game, as an example, or take a Barcelona/CL finalists Madrid - are looking much more to move the ball around more, probing and pulling, looking for a killer pass.

I don't think it's too unreasonable the point that was being made - that our midfield looks a lot better, at least in terms of creativity and penetration when there's that Lallana "type" in it - which I'd add Ox, Keita and, to a lesser extent, Shaqiri too.

I agree, I didn't say we haven't had an issues but my problem is the generalizing statement that we've struggled against big sides in every match because of the same issue.

The final against Madrid is a fair point however we also played with 3 midfielders who we couldn't rotate for the best part of 2 months due to injuries.

Offline Knight

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16332 on: September 26, 2019, 08:48:45 AM »
Yes it's possible to be absolutely brilliant whilst still having flaws that would make us even better. No where in my post did I intend to say we're never able to progress the ball with our common midfielders. I did said they 'struggle' and are 'very unlikely' to be able to do so. Since this is a thread about our midfield, rather than our general brilliance, and superb success over the last 2 years, I'm chilled about being relatively critical, although if the tone was overly so, apologies.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16333 on: September 26, 2019, 05:49:11 PM »
I take your point and there's no way it's been a consistent issue in every game or even a majority, but I remember watching the Madrid final in particular and thinking it highlighted a struggle to play through the midfield. I think the club saw similar as the Keita deal was completed and we added Fabinho as well - having already brought in Oxlaide-Chamberlain during that season and by all accounts targetted Fekir as well - settlling for Shaqiri instead to play in an advanced midfield type of role.

In the Spurs final I don't recall too many instances of any of the team stringing more than 3 or 4 passes together.

Whether playing through the midfield is something we really target doing is another thing - seems to me most of our build up play in midfield is quick recycling of the ball and ideally getting our fullbacks on it wide who look to link with Bobby or whichever of Mo/Mane they're with. Fabinho and the centre-halves also primarily create triangles with the full backs and when the vertical passes are made, it tends to be in the right/left sided half space for Bobby, or and advanced 8 who's immediately looking to link up with the forwards, or, again (a theme) play the advanced full backs in.

Our style of play is different to cities, and I don't think we put anywhere near as much emphasis on playing through the midfield - we play through our fullbacks much more - and look to get it into advanced areas and the feet of Bobby, Mane and Mo much more regularly. City's game, as an example, or take a Barcelona/CL finalists Madrid - are looking much more to move the ball around more, probing and pulling, looking for a killer pass.

I don't think it's too unreasonable the point that was being made - that our midfield looks a lot better, at least in terms of creativity and penetration when there's that Lallana "type" in it - which I'd add Ox, Keita and, to a lesser extent, Shaqiri too.

The problem with playing through midfield is that you have to play through to someone else at the top of the midfield (usually the attackers). So when we lost our most important one to injury, our midfield patterns of play went right out the window. Depth is super-important to getting the ball from one end of the field to another, and without it, we were always going to be in trouble once Salah went off (him being our "depth" player in possession, more often than not).

It's so much easier to explain in the famous 4v2 "Rondo" exercise -

With the 4v2, all elements of the principles of attack are present - Penetration, Width, Depth, Mobility, Creativity and Surprise. Penetration is the primary objective, Width and Depth give the "shape" (which is the correct use of the phrase "get your shape"), and Mobility/Creativity/Surprise are the technical tools to make the Penetration happen, or to enable Possession when there is no Penetration option.

The aim of the keepaway exercise with 2 or more defenders in the middle is NOT to keep the ball, but to split the defenders with a penetrating pass. If that isn't on, then you keep the ball until you create a gap that you can play the ball through:



So for our midfield, and especially with Mane and Firmino both happy to drop in to the middle to help out or receive the ball, the loss of Salah blunts our midfield play as without the Depth/Penetration option, we end up going more side-to-side, ending up with the fullbacks, who then have nobody to play to, so the ball gets recycled. The obvious alternative to this is to have dribblers in midfield who are happy in 1v1 and 1v2 situations, hence Keita - but we didn't have him at the time. Against most teams, we can deal with this using patience, because we have more quality than most teams. But against a team like Madrid, with no Salah and a concussed goalkeeper, we can be very easily put off our midfield game.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that "midfield ball progression" has two sides to the coin - the midfield side, and the attacker side, because without dribblers, you have to progress TO someone, and if that player isn't there, ball progression through passing alone becomes almost non-existent (see Rodgers without any strikers worth the name).
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16334 on: September 26, 2019, 06:12:58 PM »
It seems to me that ball progression is a big problem against better sides. When we play workmanlike midfields we struggle to progress the ball through our midfield 3, and then Firmino has to come deeper and deeper to get the ball, ending up almost as another 8 rather than a 10  (Babuyagu, formally of this parish, has made this point recently in his live tweets of games) and Salah and Mane don't get it in dangerous places. The issue with our midfield 3 isn't, then, so much about a lack of goals and assists when we play the top 6, it's about an inability to progress the ball once we come up against the better sides. A Lallana type in a midfield 3 (although not current Lallana), offers hockey assists (the pass before the assist), and moves the ball up the pitch through vertical passing and dribbling. Plus they offer Fabinho, the fullbacks and Matip vertical passing options by being willing to take up positions 'inside' the opponent's shape. Of course, if we were playing CMs with these abilities, they would as a matter of course pick up assists, because they'd be getting the ball in positions where it'd be possible to hurt the opposition. Fabinho, Gini and Henderson are very unlikely, when we're attempting to progress the ball from back to front, to receive the ball in a position where they can hurt the opposition.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16335 on: September 26, 2019, 07:00:45 PM »
I think the midfield is in a good spot. The Fab-Gini-Hendo trio is a proven, trophy-winning combo, a solid as any base, with Milner as a very useful plunger of gaps to call on. The key is probably getting Keita, Ox and Shaq involved and up to speed over the course of the season.

Offline phil236849

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16336 on: September 26, 2019, 07:21:29 PM »
The problem with playing through midfield is that you have to play through to someone else at the top of the midfield (usually the attackers). So when we lost our most important one to injury, our midfield patterns of play went right out the window. Depth is super-important to getting the ball from one end of the field to another, and without it, we were always going to be in trouble once Salah went off (him being our "depth" player in possession, more often than not).

It's so much easier to explain in the famous 4v2 "Rondo" exercise -

With the 4v2, all elements of the principles of attack are present - Penetration, Width, Depth, Mobility, Creativity and Surprise. Penetration is the primary objective, Width and Depth give the "shape" (which is the correct use of the phrase "get your shape"), and Mobility/Creativity/Surprise are the technical tools to make the Penetration happen, or to enable Possession when there is no Penetration option.

The aim of the keepaway exercise with 2 or more defenders in the middle is NOT to keep the ball, but to split the defenders with a penetrating pass. If that isn't on, then you keep the ball until you create a gap that you can play the ball through:



So for our midfield, and especially with Mane and Firmino both happy to drop in to the middle to help out or receive the ball, the loss of Salah blunts our midfield play as without the Depth/Penetration option, we end up going more side-to-side, ending up with the fullbacks, who then have nobody to play to, so the ball gets recycled. The obvious alternative to this is to have dribblers in midfield who are happy in 1v1 and 1v2 situations, hence Keita - but we didn't have him at the time. Against most teams, we can deal with this using patience, because we have more quality than most teams. But against a team like Madrid, with no Salah and a concussed goalkeeper, we can be very easily put off our midfield game.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that "midfield ball progression" has two sides to the coin - the midfield side, and the attacker side, because without dribblers, you have to progress TO someone, and if that player isn't there, ball progression through passing alone becomes almost non-existent (see Rodgers without any strikers worth the name).

Is that a long-winded way of advocating Route 1😉

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16337 on: September 26, 2019, 07:37:50 PM »
Is that a long-winded way of advocating Route 1😉

Nope. A penetrating pass is simply a pass that eliminates at least 1 defender. But in order to do that, you need someone at the end of it. So if we want to play through midfield, we need the attacking depth to make that happen:

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16338 on: September 26, 2019, 08:46:37 PM »
In other words, with Salah we're 'packing' heat
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16339 on: September 26, 2019, 08:48:46 PM »
In other words, with Salah we're 'packing' heat

We're packing something :D

(But yes. Packing.)
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16340 on: September 26, 2019, 11:47:26 PM »
Nope. A penetrating pass is simply a pass that eliminates at least 1 defender. But in order to do that, you need someone at the end of it. So if we want to play through midfield, we need the attacking depth to make that happen:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Tgb29FdqsLY" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Tgb29FdqsLY</a>

I was only joking. I appreciate it must be like teaching teenagers😛

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16341 on: September 26, 2019, 11:51:45 PM »
I was only joking. I appreciate it must be like teaching teenagers😛

Ha ha!

Although Sam Allardyce is convinced they are used for training route one football. He does 4v2 on a full-sized pitch ;D ;D ;D
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16342 on: October 20, 2019, 06:34:31 PM »
If Naby and Ox are not good enough to get into this midfield we'll have to address this issue urgently in January or we can say goodbye to the league.

Today's performance was a performance we saw many times from this midfield set-up - completely and utterly blunt, devoid of any creativity or God forbid goal threat. The amount of talent Henderson lacks for this position is frightening, I don't know if he's a fullback or a DM but an attacking player for this team he is not.

I fear that if today's performance is not a final straw for Klopp and he doesn't go for more talented players we saw coming off of bench today we stand no chance to win the league.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16343 on: October 20, 2019, 06:41:44 PM »
Final straw for Klopp :lmao Fucking hell.
Nobody hasn't embarrassed me, because i have no respect for you and 4-5 others like you.

Offline markmywords

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16344 on: October 20, 2019, 06:44:29 PM »
If Naby and Ox are not good enough to get into this midfield we'll have to address this issue urgently in January or we can say goodbye to the league.

Today's performance was a performance we saw many times from this midfield set-up - completely and utterly blunt, devoid of any creativity or God forbid goal threat. The amount of talent Henderson lacks for this position is frightening, I don't know if he's a fullback or a DM but an attacking player for this team he is not.

I fear that if today's performance is not a final straw for Klopp and he doesn't go for more talented players we saw coming off of bench today we stand no chance to win the league.

I think Klopp has settled for this level of performance away from home in big games, we have won 2 out of 13 away to the big 6 and lost 5 out of the last 7 away in the champions league. Most of the defeats happened over the last 2 yrs and resulted in a summer transfer window where we basically just signed some promising secondary school kids from around europe
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 06:53:18 PM by markmywords »

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16345 on: October 20, 2019, 06:44:51 PM »
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16346 on: October 20, 2019, 06:47:03 PM »
I think Klopp has settled for this level of performance away from home in big games, we have won 2 out of 13 away to the big 6 and lost 5 out of the last 7 away in the champions league. Most of the defeats happened over the last 2 yrs and resulted in a summer transfer window where we signed some promising secondary school kids from around europe
Yeah it can work at home but in big away games it almost always lets us down. I'm more bothered about shite teams like Utd - using more talented players in midfield would make our life much easier.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16347 on: October 20, 2019, 07:11:53 PM »
If Naby and Ox are not good enough to get into this midfield we'll have to address this issue urgently in January or we can say goodbye to the league.

Today's performance was a performance we saw many times from this midfield set-up - completely and utterly blunt, devoid of any creativity or God forbid goal threat. The amount of talent Henderson lacks for this position is frightening, I don't know if he's a fullback or a DM but an attacking player for this team he is not.

I fear that if today's performance is not a final straw for Klopp and he doesn't go for more talented players we saw coming off of bench today we stand no chance to win the league.

8 wins and 1 draw away to old trafford and we have no chance of winning the league  :lmao :lmao :lmao

In games like today, form goes out the window. The united players were up for it and you could see it gives them that 10% extra. A draw away to united is a good result.

On the midfield note, henderson added nothing going forward. Especially in the 1st half. His passing and movement was the same as when he plays DM. I agree we need a "number 10" that can create a little bit of magic with a pass or a goal from 30 yards but its not as urgent as some people make it out to be. For me, I would of pulled hendo off at half time and given ox that role of right CM the whole 2nd half.
Wijnaldum tired out towards the end but he was our best player in the 1st half and Fabinho did what he always does.
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Offline deFacto

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16348 on: October 20, 2019, 07:15:16 PM »
If Naby and Ox are not good enough to get into this midfield we'll have to address this issue urgently in January or we can say goodbye to the league.

Today's performance was a performance we saw many times from this midfield set-up - completely and utterly blunt, devoid of any creativity or God forbid goal threat. The amount of talent Henderson lacks for this position is frightening, I don't know if he's a fullback or a DM but an attacking player for this team he is not.

I fear that if today's performance is not a final straw for Klopp and he doesn't go for more talented players we saw coming off of bench today we stand no chance to win the league.

Many times? What the 97 points missing out in the end by 1 point and CL wasn't good enough for you?

If Keita and Ox were fit they would have been picked consistently. It's not like keita has been on the bench ignored by the manager. Ox did his knee in every way possible.

You're talking absolute nonsense

Offline rawcusk8

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16349 on: October 20, 2019, 07:25:52 PM »
Fucking hell some people really have short memories :lmao
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16350 on: October 20, 2019, 07:27:28 PM »
Many times? What the 97 points missing out in the end by 1 point and CL wasn't good enough for you?

If Keita and Ox were fit they would have been picked consistently. It's not like keita has been on the bench ignored by the manager. Ox did his knee in every way possible.
Nobody on this planet could convince me that all the success we had since the start of last season was due to our midfield. Yes they hold their heads above water somehow but all these wins for the most part were in spite of them not due to them, don't care what anybody says.

The moment we had people who thrive in tight spaces today the difference in class between the sides was visible momentarily - shame it happened too late. The midfield that started today is unbalanced and offers precious little on the ball - it is dragging this team back and it's unfair that front 3 has to cover for their deficiencies every single game, it's not allowing us to play to our fullest potential every game which is a crying shame.

As for Naby and Ox I'm talking about an IF.

Offline deFacto

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16351 on: October 20, 2019, 07:35:43 PM »
Quote
Nobody on this planet could convince me that all the success we had since the start of last season was due to our midfield.

Nobody on this planet can convince me that the success of this side wasn't attainable without the midfield doing the job they needed to do. It's a team sport, it's 11 players on the pitch, if one piece doesn't do it's job, it affects the other.

Quote
The moment we had people who thrive in tight spaces today the difference in class between the sides was visible momentarily - shame it happened too late. The midfield that started today is unbalanced and offers precious little on the ball - it is dragging this team back and it's unfair that front 3 has to cover for their deficiencies every single game, it's not allowing us to play to our fullest potential every game which is a crying shame.

So we've achieved all of our success, because the front three? Yeah that's a load of horseshit.

Quote
As for Naby and Ox I'm talking about an IF.

So WHY go on about ''final straw'' and we can kiss the title goodbye nonsense, if it's clear that the two players who have something that the others don't, aren't available?

Despite that we've found ways to win and be successful.

It's not in spite of the midfield.

It's not perfect but this notion that the title will be lost because of the midfield, is again, absolute shite

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16352 on: October 20, 2019, 07:36:49 PM »
If Naby and Ox are not good enough to get into this midfield we'll have to address this issue urgently in January or we can say goodbye to the league.

Today's performance was a performance we saw many times from this midfield set-up - completely and utterly blunt, devoid of any creativity or God forbid goal threat. The amount of talent Henderson lacks for this position is frightening, I don't know if he's a fullback or a DM but an attacking player for this team he is not.

I fear that if today's performance is not a final straw for Klopp and he doesn't go for more talented players we saw coming off of bench today we stand no chance to win the league.

Yeah whatever.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16353 on: October 20, 2019, 07:43:49 PM »
If we don’t have our usual front 3 out there then that midfield should be totally binned off. Just no creativity to play through the middle and those long balls that we usually play to salah doesn’t work. Need to play more through midfield when we’re missing either Mo or mane and the likes of keita, chamberlain and lallana need to be involved in those games. Games where they can break the line and get at their defence

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16354 on: October 20, 2019, 07:48:23 PM »
If Naby and Ox are not good enough to get into this midfield we'll have to address this issue urgently in January or we can say goodbye to the league.

Today's performance was a performance we saw many times from this midfield set-up - completely and utterly blunt, devoid of any creativity or God forbid goal threat. The amount of talent Henderson lacks for this position is frightening, I don't know if he's a fullback or a DM but an attacking player for this team he is not.

I fear that if today's performance is not a final straw for Klopp and he doesn't go for more talented players we saw coming off of bench today we stand no chance to win the league.

No chance winning the league, with midfield from last season that missed out by a point plus Ox back. Ridiculous statement. They will all play their part and I’ve no doubt as the season progresses like we saw with Fabinho last season Keita and Ox and possibly Lallana will have a greater role to play.
But no chance of winning the league is beyond a joke.

Offline MD1990

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16355 on: October 20, 2019, 07:48:54 PM »
If Naby and Ox are not good enough to get into this midfield we'll have to address this issue urgently in January or we can say goodbye to the league.

Today's performance was a performance we saw many times from this midfield set-up - completely and utterly blunt, devoid of any creativity or God forbid goal threat. The amount of talent Henderson lacks for this position is frightening, I don't know if he's a fullback or a DM but an attacking player for this team he is not.

I fear that if today's performance is not a final straw for Klopp and he doesn't go for more talented players we saw coming off of bench today we stand no chance to win the league.
we are 6 points clear

After 9 games having played 3 of last seasons top 6. 2 away from home. And currently the 3rd best team in the league.

Offline So... Howard Phillips

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16356 on: October 20, 2019, 07:51:25 PM »
A think a couple of posters have taken Sky's pundits comments to heart.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16357 on: October 20, 2019, 07:52:16 PM »
No chance winning the league, with midfield from last season that missed out by a point plus Ox back. Ridiculous statement. They will all play their part and I’ve no doubt as the season progresses like we saw with Fabinho last season Keita and Ox and possibly Lallana will have a greater role to play.
But no chance of winning the league is beyond a joke.

It's the worst thing I've read on here in a while and that's saying something.

I must have lived in an alternative universe last season when the title was decided on the final game of the season. ''No chance'' of winning midfield and all

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16358 on: October 20, 2019, 07:52:21 PM »
A think a couple of posters have taken Sky's pundits comments to heart.

Haha knee jerk on RAWK?! Not having it ;)

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16359 on: October 20, 2019, 07:55:41 PM »
we are 6 points clear

After 9 games having played 3 of last seasons top 6. 2 away from home. And currently the 3rd best team in the league.
Again, In my opinion, it has precious little to do with our midfield.

Henderson has 0 goals, 0 assists and looks incredibly short in talent and ability to play such an important position. We are clearly carrying him which is not something we did for entirety of last season, so it's very dangerous to continue with this. We'll need more from that role or we won't continue to win as much IMO.