Author Topic: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC  (Read 15767 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #120 on: December 23, 2013, 03:04:16 PM »
If he times his run correctly, he wouldn't be offside.  He's got the same amount of time to react to the cross as everyone else does, but he's got the clearest view and he's running on to the ball as opposed to turning to see how play is unfolding behind before reacting to it - this is what gives him the advantage and makes him more likely to get to the ball before anyone else if they all start on the same line.

The same as when someone crosses the ball in open play, if a striker is level with the defender, but 5 yards behind him, if the cross is good, he's got a clear advantage.

The answer to the question had better not be 42 btw.


Damn it! How did you know???


Seriously, though, it's worth thinking about, because a lot of people don't see it.

They have a free kick on our left side, just outside the width of the box. We set up with an offside line. They place a player 5-10 yards away from our last man, who will be the target for the cross. He is outside the width of the box on the opposite side, looking to get a run on the header.

What advantage does this give the defence?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #121 on: December 23, 2013, 03:05:12 PM »
More time to sort it out?

Let's say that they see the player there, but they stick to their zones.

What advantage do they still have?
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #122 on: December 23, 2013, 03:09:25 PM »

Damn it! How did you know???


Seriously, though, it's worth thinking about, because a lot of people don't see it.

They have a free kick on our left side, just outside the width of the box. We set up with an offside line. They place a player 5-10 yards away from our last man, who will be the target for the cross. He is outside the width of the box on the opposite side, looking to get a run on the header.

What advantage does this give the defence?

Depends on the freekick, doesn't it?  If he's 5-10 yards behind, then that gives the ball enough time to dip and he's in a very decent position to receive it to feet as opposed to getting a header on it.  Or at least to have a chance to take a touch to get it down.  If you were setting up to defend using that system and saw that someone like Suarez was in that position, with that much space, and with Gerrard on the ball, would you be happy to see how that scenario unfolds?

And even if he only gets a head on it, he can head it back square across the box, and then it's going to be a free-for-all as to who gets to the ball first.  Or slightly backwards of square so the keeper has less of a chance to come and grab it.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #123 on: December 23, 2013, 03:10:42 PM »
Depends on the freekick, doesn't it?  If he's 5-10 yards behind, then that gives the ball enough time to dip and he's in a very decent position to receive it to feet as opposed to getting a header on it.  Or at least to have a chance to take a touch to get it down.  If you were setting up to defend using that system and saw that someone like Suarez was in that position, with that much space, and with Gerrard on the ball, would you be happy to see how that scenario unfolds?

And even if he only gets a head on it, he can head it back square across the box, and then it's going to be a free-for-all as to who gets to the ball first.  Or slightly backwards of square so the keeper has less of a chance to come and grab it.

You still haven't answered the question, though.

What advantage does the defending team have?
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #124 on: December 23, 2013, 03:14:32 PM »
You still haven't answered the question, though.

What advantage does the defending team have?

Uh... 42?

I don't see an advantage.  If they had someone closer to the furthest player, that'd be different.  But leaving someone to have a free run on the ball doesn't strike me as advantageous.  But this is obviously different to what actually happened on the weekend, as the Cardiff player was a lot closer to our zonal line.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #125 on: December 23, 2013, 03:35:02 PM »
Uh... 42?

I don't see an advantage.  If they had someone closer to the furthest player, that'd be different.  But leaving someone to have a free run on the ball doesn't strike me as advantageous.  But this is obviously different to what actually happened on the weekend, as the Cardiff player was a lot closer to our zonal line.

The advantage the defending team has is time. The further away from the ball the receiver is, the more time it takes to get to its destination. The more time and distance the ball has to travel, the more time a zonal defence has to shift across to apply pressure. And in fact, this is what happened in the Cardiff goal, except that Sakho was very well screened to stop him from jumping. Had that screen not existed, Sakho would have won the ball, or at least deflected it. Because he had time to move with the flight of the ball. That's why defences shift across the field and leave weakside attackers open, even in open play - they are not an imminent threat, and the defence can shift across just as quickly as the ball can travel, given that the nearest defender to that open player usually has to travel less than 20 yards to get to the receiver.

So in the situation diagrammed above, the attacking "advantage" is somewhat negated by the defenders advantage of time.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #126 on: December 23, 2013, 03:50:01 PM »
The advantage the defending team has is time. The further away from the ball the receiver is, the more time it takes to get to its destination. The more time and distance the ball has to travel, the more time a zonal defence has to shift across to apply pressure. And in fact, this is what happened in the Cardiff goal, except that Sakho was very well screened to stop him from jumping. Had that screen not existed, Sakho would have won the ball, or at least deflected it. Because he had time to move with the flight of the ball. That's why defences shift across the field and leave weakside attackers open, even in open play - they are not an imminent threat, and the defence can shift across just as quickly as the ball can travel, given that the nearest defender to that open player usually has to travel less than 20 yards to get to the receiver.

So in the situation diagrammed above, the attacking "advantage" is somewhat negated by the defenders advantage of time.

Fair enough.  I think this is the keyword here.

As I said, I wouldn't like to be facing Suarez on the end of a low, whipped ball from Gerrard in 5 yards of space in the box.  But then, if I were the opposing team, I wouldn't want Suarez anywhere near the ball, anywhere on the pitch.  Or in the tunnel.

Or in Costco.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #127 on: December 23, 2013, 03:53:56 PM »
The advantage the defending team has is time.

Also to have made the attacking team's options more predictable, which might well be an considered advantage in countries where unpredictability is akin to being "sneaky" or "tricky."
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #128 on: December 23, 2013, 03:57:42 PM »
Fair enough.  I think this is the keyword here.

As I said, I wouldn't like to be facing Suarez on the end of a low, whipped ball from Gerrard in 5 yards of space in the box.  But then, if I were the opposing team, I wouldn't want Suarez anywhere near the ball, anywhere on the pitch.  Or in the tunnel.

Or in Costco.

Given the lines in Costco, that's probably the only place they'd ever get close to him ;D
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #129 on: December 23, 2013, 03:58:30 PM »

Or in Costco.

Especially when he's had a couple of bevvies in him. He's like the Brown Bottle
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #130 on: December 23, 2013, 04:53:11 PM »
Just a minor, anorak-style point: The 'mandarins'  :wave ought to be 'drawing' their offside lines 'behind' our players, not in front of them. Preferably, such lines ought to be 'drawn' at the point where a goal-scoring part of the body of the least advanced LFC player is located at any particular time, and when the ball is struck.

Re assistant referees: it is physically impossible for their (human) eyes to perceive BOTH the ball being struck AND the most withdrawn/most advanced goal-scoring part of the bodies of the 'last defender'/'first attacker'.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 05:43:25 PM by GrkStav »
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #131 on: December 23, 2013, 04:55:31 PM »
Just a minor, anorak-style point: The 'mandarins'  :wave ought to be 'drawing' their offside lines 'behind' our players, not in front of them. Preferably, such lines ought to be 'drawn' at the point where a goal-scoring part of the body of the least advanced LFC player is located at any particular time, and when the ball is struck.

Re assistant referees: it is physically impossible for their (human) eyes to perceive BOTH the ball being struck AND the most withdrawn/most advanced goal-scoring part of the bodies of the 'last defender'/'first attacker'.

Anorak style pedantic point rebuttal -

The lines weren't drawn to show the actual offside line, but to show that the players were in a line rather than man-marking. The lines were also positioned so as to not obscure any of the players.
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Offline Al 666

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #132 on: December 23, 2013, 05:40:49 PM »
I don't disagree - but the point of the trap isn't solely to catch players offside, but to have them try to get back onside and have them running away from the goal, so that the ball effectively goes to dead space or the keeper. I think this is what Sakho was furious about, and what gave Cardiff the benefit when Skrtel dropped. I'm not saying I think it was a clever plan, but having played in and coached a lot of offside traps, I recognise all the signs, and I think the intention was more to set and hold a line, rather than mark individual players. If you look back at the Cardiff free kick that started the run of play leading to Sterling's goal, you see the same thing, so it wasn't accidental that there was a 2v1 on Sakho - because the players weren't really man-marking, they were setting a line:



We can see here that Johnson has a 2v1 situation, and nobody corrects it. In the next frame, one of the Cardiff players moves behind the line, and nobody picks him up:



So that tells me that we were trying operate some sort of offside line, some sort of zonal set piece defending, and that Skrtel jumped the gun on the one that led to the goal.

As I said, I don't disagree that it's risky - "live by the trap, die by the trap" as the old saying goes. But people here need to realise what was happening when the goal was scored. We were clearly playing zonally, and it clearly hasn't been rehearsed enough.

Cheers for that PoP.

To me it looked like we were doing a bit of both with certain players going man to man Skrtel on Caulker for example with the other players fitting in around that and treating the situation in a similar way to open play where we setup zonally. Wide free kicks are the ones that really seem to cause us problems and I can't really see a way of changing that in the near future without affecting our fluidity in their half.

I think you have it pretty much spot in that it isn't a massive problem and is probably something we are going to accept unless we want to drastically change the way we want to play.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #133 on: December 23, 2013, 05:44:09 PM »
Anorak style pedantic point rebuttal -

The lines weren't drawn to show the actual offside line, but to show that the players were in a line rather than man-marking. The lines were also positioned so as to not obscure any of the players.

I crossed out that part upon edit.

The other part supports your general position, I think.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #134 on: December 23, 2013, 05:45:12 PM »
How much of it might be that we're positioning for the swift counter? We scored a goal from their set piece on Saturday as well. And it's happened a few times this season I'm sure. As well as some good chances missed from such situations. It'd be interesting to see how many goals or chances we've scored and created from counter attacking an opponent's set piece relative to how many goals we've conceded from such situations.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #135 on: December 24, 2013, 10:43:16 AM »
I thought it was in general, a very good and professional performance. Second half wasn't as good, we gave away too many set pieces, didn't deal with them well enough and Campbell coming on for Odemwingie gave us more to think about with his runs behind. But overall, I thought Cardiff made it easier for us and we took advantage very well.

Cardiff defended in a very reactive and pretty passive way, especially for much of the first half. And under Rodgers, that sort of defensive 'plan' is always going to allow us to come out on top. We had threat on both sides, we always moved it round well, we always had numerical superiority in midfield and not only all that, we had the direct movements to take advantage of how Cardiff defended. It's this sort of aggression, intensity and fluidity that is precisely where we want to be under Rodgers. And such is the league now that if we have this balance, we can challenge for the title.
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