Topic: Islamism

[Yorkykopite]

In some ways this might help prevent terrorist acts in this country.

The secret services will now have much more detailed envied nice of who is a violent extremist.  Identification allows monitoring, and prevents acts in this country.

It's akin to them sticking a flag on their head saying "hey look!  I'm a homicidal lunatic, watch me"

That's true I suppose.

At the same time it's got to be a cause for concern that there appear to be so many British-born Muslims who want to become terrorists and fight in foreign countries.

[SadRed]

I didn't call you stupid. I simply pointed out that Corky is "somewhat brighter". That's not an insult. Think of it as a motivation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism

I know what to think of it, thank you. I have better things to do in life than to be motivated by bigotry and xenophobia. Insulting others cultures and faiths gives me no pleasure, unlike some.

[Corkboy]

Because that is what humans are. They interpret things the way they want. Its not just for religion, but for everything. For politics, for war, for economics. To the shock of some, religion does not have every single thing for every single possible scenario written down in a gigantic book somewhere.

Just like secular laws. Why do we need a lawyer and for people to research law? Isnt there one gigantic book that tells you what is correct and what is wrong? No there isnt. Religion is the same.

Secular laws. Politics. War. Economics. Religion. One of those things isn't quite like the others. Only one of them claims to be the Ultimate Truth, as handed down from God. You can say politics is variable, because it is, and likewise economics. Religion isn't open to variation. If it were, it wouldn't be religion. That's the trouble with "delivered" truth. The Delivery Man is infallible.

If a nation has a law which it deems, over time, to be unacceptable, it may change it. This is normal, the society says we were wrong and now we are going to do things better. How can your God be wrong?

[SadRed]

Secular laws. Politics. War. Economics. Religion. One of those things isn't quite like the others. Only one of them claims to be the Ultimate Truth, as handed down from God. You can say politics is variable, because it is, and likewise economics. Religion isn't open to variation. If it were, it wouldn't be religion. That's the trouble with "delivered" truth. The Delivery Man is infallible.

Because your understanding of religion as closed and narrow, as your belief of what religion is.

There are only 5 things which are the basis of Islamic faith:

Shahadah: That there is one God and belief in all messengers of God.
Salat: ritual prayer five times a day
Zakat: giving 2.5% of one’s savings to the poor and needy
Sawm: fasting and self-control during the holy month of Ramadan
Hajj: pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime, if they can afford.

The rest of it is laws, with variations, understanding, culture. That is why you have hundereds of interpretations and rulings, differing sects, differing beliefs.

If a nation has a law which it deems, over time, to be unacceptable, it may change it. This is normal, the society says we were wrong and now we are going to do things better. How can your God be wrong?

Quite simply by saying - our understanding of God was wrong. Religion is for basic moral concepts, jurisprudence is completely different. It is laws derived by humans, and hence they vary. The problem is you repeatedly view religion as one block, monilithic, with no change possible. Which is completely untrue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijtihad

[Doc Red]

You've fed back to me the same information I have already posted but you can't explain how a religion can get it so wrong, even within its own ranks. We came to the same conclusion when Doc Red and I were talking about apostasy and adultery. No, Islam does not condone the death penalty for either and yes, the death penalty exists for both in many Muslim countries, apparently mandated by Islam. How is this so? Doc Red had no clue either.

I don't recall us coming to any sort of conclusion that encompasses what you've just stated. And we weren't "talking" about apostasy as much as it was a case of you presenting a research without context or additional explanation in an attempt to persuade us that your life would be at risk in Muslim countries, whilst I was rejecting your assumptions. My rebuttal of your general statements (such as "why do some Muslim countries want me dead?" etc) which you based on a research (which wasn't supporting your statements as much as you implied it was) is here:

Additionally, I answered some more of your questions on the same subject below:

We never agreed on anything that amounted to "a religion can get it so wrong, even within its own ranks". Additionally, you seem to constantly have a desire to shift the discussion on this thread from a debate on the political concept of "Islamism" to a debate on the social merits (or critiques) on the religion that is Islam. I may not have agreed with a debate on religious extremism and terrorism being played out under the title of "Islamism", but in time, I have at least understood where Yorky seemed to be coming from (or maybe i've just grown to tacitly accepted it as time has passed!).

You've already had several posters respond to your queries/posts/links by explaining their general reluctance on continuing these sorts of discussions within a thread titled "Islamism". Credit to them, they initially took the time to respond to your statements, but even then, it's clear they're not comfortable having to discuss the social aspects of their religion(or other issues outside of the political discussion of Islamism) on this thread. Instead of respecting our stance, and adhering to the main topic of the thread, it certainly feels like you're trying to bait us into continuing.

I've made several statements that have explained my general issue with posters using this thread as an opportunity to discuss/present their opinions on the problems of Islam (as per their stance).If you really are interested in debating and discussing the social aspects of Islam, you're better off continuing the debate via pm (if anyone is interested) or making another thread. This isn't the thread for that.

[The Fletcher Memorial]

This one ?

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2014/07/saudi-families-refuse-condolences-isis-position.html#

yep that's the one...sadly.

[Corkboy]

Quite simply by saying - our understanding of God was wrong.

So when we have millions of Muslims who disagree with you on FGM, which understanding of God is wrong? Yours or theirs?

There are only things which are the basis of Islamic faith:

Shahadah: That there is one God and belief in all messengers of God.
Salat: ritual prayer five times a day
Zakat: giving 2.5% of one’s savings to the poor and needy
Sawm: fasting and self-control during the holy month of Ramadan
Hajj: pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime, if they can afford.

So murder, rape, theft, kidnapping....?

[SadRed]

So when we have millions of Muslims who disagree with you on FGM, which understanding of God is wrong? Yours or theirs?

So murder, rape, theft, kidnapping....?

That does it for me. Carry on your tirade, I just hope people can see what you playing at.

[Corkboy]

I don't recall us coming to any sort of conclusion that encompasses what you've just stated.

Do you think killing people who leave Islam is wrong?
Yes.
If so, why do so many Muslims think it's right?
Do you mean to ask, "the survey shows that the majority of those surveyed in Pakistan, Egypt, and Jordan think killing people who leave Islam is right. why do they think that?
I can't explain why people in Egypt, Jordan, and Pakistan, hold those views.

[GREGtheRED]

There's nearly a thousand Jewish UK residents a year who leave the country to fight in the IDF.
 

That number is hugely inflated. There are less than a thousand British nationals serving in the Israel Defense Forces in total. There certainly are not a thousand joining its ranks every single year.

Regardless, it would be irrelevant if there were. British Jews joining the Tzahal are not indoctrinated with a poisonous ideology that would see them hating the very values we hold dear in the West, leading to them posing a very real and alarming terrorist threat to the British people upon their return. But I think you fully understand the difference and are simply being obstinate.

[Corkboy]

That does it for me.

I make that your fourth time threatening to leave the thread. Maybe your posts are just more open to interpretation...

[SadRed]

I make that your fourth time threatening to leave the thread. Maybe your posts are just more open to interpretation...

Maybe its the way you look at things. Because 'That does it for me' doesnt sound like 'I am leaving this thread'.

[SadRed]

That's true I suppose.

At the same time it's got to be a cause for concern that there appear to be so many British-born Muslims who want to become terrorists and fight in foreign countries.

It is a huge concern. Thats why the government should not cut funding to muslim groups that are combating this. But also significantly, UK needs to seriously not engage in foreign conflicts, especially illegal wars like Iraq which are the major recruitment propoganda for these terrorists.

[Corkboy]

Maybe its the way you look at things. Because 'That does it for me' doesnt sound like 'I am leaving this thread'.

Right, well since you're still here, you missed this one.

So when we have millions of Muslims who disagree with you on FGM, which understanding of God is wrong? Yours or theirs?

[Yorkykopite]

It is a huge concern. Thats why the government should not cut funding to muslim groups that are combating this. But also significantly, UK needs to seriously not engage in foreign conflicts, especially illegal wars like Iraq which are the major recruitment propoganda for these terrorists.

Britain's foreign policy should not be held hostage like that. What you're advising here amounts to us giving a veto to the loonies and nutjobs of the Islamist far right. Fuck that.

And let's be sensible about this. These Islamist nutjobs do not need an excuse to (i) run away and join a jihadist war (ii) commit terrorist atrocities on British streets. They'll do these things, irrespective of whether Britain is "engaged in a foreign conflict" or not, as can be seen right now in Syria, and could also be seen when Drummer Rigby was beheaded in South-East London.

[SadRed]

Right, well since you're still here, you missed this one.

Islamic leaders have made clear their position on what the correct Islamic position is WHICH I have mentioned 1000 times. So dont make me go around and around in circles.

[Yorkykopite]

Islamic leaders have made clear their position on what the correct Islamic position is WHICH I have mentioned 1000 times. So dont make me go around and around in circles.

Some have - and they agree with it. Some have - and they disagree with it.

That, in a nutshell, is the problem with appealing to "Islamic scholars" to discover the "true" Koran. They always disagree. As well they might.

[TepidT2O]

It is a huge concern. Thats why the government should not cut funding to muslim groups that are combating this. But also significantly, UK needs to seriously not engage in foreign conflicts, especially illegal wars like Iraq which are the major recruitment propoganda for these terrorists.

You mean that the uk shouldnt get involved in wars in Muslim countries.

What annoys me so much about this position is Kosovo.  The Muslims in Kosovo would have been slaughtered if it weren't for the British government.

Or Libya where the west help overcome the dictatorship that repressed peoples religious freedoms.

Extremists forget this of course. They pick and choose their agenda to suit themselves.

[Corkboy]

Islamic leaders have made clear their position on what the correct Islamic position is WHICH I have mentioned 1000 times. So dont make me go around and around in circles.

You're circling the question. Millions upon millions of Muslims practice FGM. Some Islamic leaders decry it, some support it. This is unquestionable, I have provided the stats and the research. So rather than dodging it, why not just answer the question?

How can your God be wrong?

Quite simply by saying - our understanding of God was wrong.

So when we have millions of Muslims who disagree with you on FGM, which understanding of God is wrong? Yours or theirs?

I'm sure 200 million Indonesians would appreciate an answer.

[SadRed]

Britain's foreign policy should not be held hostage like that. What you're advising here amounts to us giving a veto to the loonies and nutjobs of the Islamist far right. Fuck that.

British foreign policy should be held hostage to what is morally correct. If Islamist far right raises up the issue of illegal war in Iraq, they cannot be dismissed just because they are saying it. There is clear and unquestionable link between the two.

And let's be sensible about this. These Islamist nutjobs do not need an excuse to (i) run away and join a jihadist war (ii) commit terrorist atrocities on British streets. They'll do these things, irrespective of whether Britain is "engaged in a foreign conflict" or not, as can be seen right now in Syria, and could also be seen when Drummer Rigby was beheaded in South-East London.

I dont buy that. Every major intellgence group accepts a link there. If what was the case, how many are going to join jihadists now and how many were going before Iraq war? This is what woolwich murders said:

"The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. And this British soldier is one … By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. So what if we want to live by the Sharia in Muslim lands? Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us? … when you drop a bomb do you think it hits one person? Or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family? … Through [many passages in the] Koran we must fight them as they fight us … I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don’t care about you. You think David Cameron is gonna get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? Do you think politicians are going to die? No, it's going to be the average guy, like you and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back … leave our lands and you will live in peace."

There is a clear link, they are being motivated by foreign wars.

[Yorkykopite]

British foreign policy should be held hostage to what is morally correct.

And you want the Islamist weirdos to arbitrate on what's morally correct, uh?

[Yorkykopite]

This is what woolwich murders said:

I'm aware of what they said.

Fascists have never been short of explanations for why they simply had to murder someone.

[Doc Red]

You've fed back to me the same information I have already posted but you can't explain how a religion can get it so wrong, even within its own ranks.
We came to the same conclusion when Doc Red and I were talking about apostasy and adultery. No, Islam does not condone the death penalty for either and yes, the death penalty exists for both in many Muslim countries, apparently mandated by Islam. How is this so? Doc Red had no clue either.

I don't recall us coming to any sort of conclusion that encompasses what you've just stated.
We never agreed on anything that amounted to "a religion can get it so wrong, even within its own ranks".

Do you think killing people who leave Islam is wrong?
Yes.
If so, why do so many Muslims think it's right?
Do you mean to ask, "the survey shows that the majority of those surveyed in Pakistan, Egypt, and Jordan think killing people who leave Islam is right. why do they think that?
I can't explain why people in Egypt, Jordan, and Pakistan, hold those views. If I was inclined, I might have a deeper look at their recent history, and probably try to find a few representative from those countries to give their opinion on the survey. But since the vast majority of the remaining Muslim populace don't hold these views, I'm less inclined to dig deeper.

[SadRed]

And you want the Islamist weirdos to arbitrate on what's morally correct, uh?

No I dont. But people more than just these Islamists agree that British foreign policy is fucked up and cause of ridiculous number of conflicts.

I'm aware of what they said.

Fascists have never been short of explanations for why they simply had to murder someone.

Yes that is true. But the point is they take direct inspiration from it. From a a war which is unjustifiable and led to many civilian deaths. Its not as if British foreign policy holds and moral high ground here, and it only serves excuse for what these fascists do.

Bush and Blair are war criminals responsible for death of hundereds of thousands of innocents. Let them stand trial in the Hague. Let British Foreign policy be an honest arbitrator between Israel and Palestine. Let them stop support for all dictators. This is not just to stop giving oxygen to what this dangerous ideology needs, but also because it is the right thing to do.

[Corkboy]

Doc, you're very funny.

I can't explain why people in Egypt, Jordan, and Pakistan, hold those views. If I was inclined, I might have a deeper look at their recent history, and probably try to find a few representative from those countries to give their opinion on the survey. But since the vast majority of the remaining Muslim populace don't hold these views, I'm less inclined to dig deeper.

I gave you the countries where these views were majority held. Your response was that you couldn't explain it and weren't inclined to dig deeper because the vast majority of the remaining Muslim populace don't hold these views. The key word there is "remaining". If you subtract all the people who do hold such views then by definition the majority of remaining Muslims won't hold such views. That such an analytical fallacy is a comfort to you does not surprise me.

[GREGtheRED]

It is a huge concern. Thats why the government should not cut funding to muslim groups that are combating this. But also significantly, UK needs to seriously not engage in foreign conflicts, especially illegal wars like Iraq which are the major recruitment propoganda for these terrorists.

"We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will. I cannot believe that such a programme would be rejected by the people of this country, even if it does mean the establishment of personal contact with the dictators."

Neville Chamberlain, 1938.

We all know how that went.

[SadRed]

You're circling the question. Millions upon millions of Muslims practice FGM. Some Islamic leaders decry it, some support it. This is unquestionable, I have provided the stats and the research. So rather than dodging it, why not just answer the question?

I'm sure 200 million Indonesians would appreciate an answer.

FGM is wrong, unislamic and abhorrent as proven enough times. If someone in Indonesia thinks it is mandated by religion then they are wrong.

"Parents and religious leaders alike were found to have no significant knowledge on
the formal links between FC and Islam. We can conclude that the practice of FC in
Indonesia is essentially a tradition which has been passed from one generation to the next
with little questioning about its meaning or its basis in Islamic history or law. Many
adhere to, and pass down, this tradition simply because elders and grandparents wish to
preserve this practice in the younger generations. "

"Unfortunately, individual interpretation in various places has turned this cultural
tradition into a religious doctrine that commands FC as a basic element of religious faith

I wont take your bait again. 

[SadRed]

"We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will. I cannot believe that such a programme would be rejected by the people of this country, even if it does mean the establishment of personal contact with the dictators."

Neville Chamberlain, 1938.

We all know how that went.

So you are saying the Iraq was was justified?

[Yorkykopite]

. From a a war which is unjustifiable.

So you say. Others disagree. At the very least you might notice that the electorate continued to vote for the person you call "a war criminal".

And now you appear to be saying that the Islamist Nutters can decide the matter themselves and do something the British electorate couldn't do - ie decide on the "morality" of the war. 

Sorry. It's just not the way we do it in Britain.

[SadRed]

So you say. Others disagree. At the very least you might notice that the electorate continued to vote for the person you call "a war criminal".

And now you appear to be saying that the Islamist Nutters can decide the matter themselves and do something the British electorate couldn't do - ie decide on the "morality" of the war. 

Sorry. It's just not the way we do it in Britain.

I dont know who disagrees that Iraq war nowadays. If someone has support of the public does not mean what they do is correct. Hitler had large amounts of support. Dangerous argument to use.

Iraq war was illegal which led to millions of civilian deaths. You cannot defend that on its own. We dont judge what by what Islamists want, but by our standards. If Islamists derive insipration from that and use that for terrorism, it just makes the situation worse.

Also I dont know who you mean by 'we in Britain'. Surely you dont speak for everyone in Britain. A million british people marched to stop this mad war.

[Corkboy]

FGM is wrong, unislamic and abhorrent as proven enough times. If someone in Indonesia thinks it is mandated by religion then they are wrong.

There is no "if" and it isn't just someone. Look at you trying to downplay what I've conclusively shown. It's 200 million someones and it's mandated by their Islamic leaders.

The chairman of the Majelis Ulama Indonesia, the nation's most powerful council of Islamic leaders, issued this statement: "Circumcision is a requirement for every Muslim woman," said Amidhan, who like many Indonesians goes by a single name. "It not only cleans the filth from her genitals, it also contributes to a girl's growth." source

In March [2010] this year, the Nahdlatul Ulama (NU), the country's largest Muslim organization, issued an edict supporting FGM/C, though a leading cleric told the NU’s estimated 40 million followers “not to cut too much”. source

[TepidT2O]

I dont know who disagrees that Iraq war nowadays. If someone has support of the public does not mean what they do is correct. Hitler had large amounts of support. Dangerous argument to use.

Iraq war was illegal which led to millions of civilian deaths. You cannot defend that on its own. We dont judge what by what Islamists want, but by our standards. If Islamists derive insipration from that and use that for terrorism, it just makes the situation worse.

Also I dont know who you mean by 'we in Britain'. Surely you dont speak for everyone in Britain. A million british people marched to stop this mad war.

It was a "mad war" not because of its aim being to dispose Hussain, it was a mad war because it did not address the issue of 9/11.  It didn't have any way of tackling those who brought down the twin towers.

It was also silly as there was no clear succession plan for how the replace Hussain's government.

There is nothing illegitimate about deposing a dictator who kills hundreds of thousands of his own people in cold blood.

[Doc Red]

Doc, you're very funny.
I gave you the countries where these views were majority held. Your response was that you couldn't explain it and weren't inclined to dig deeper because the vast majority of the remaining Muslim populace don't hold these views. The key word there is "remaining". If you subtract all the people who do hold such views then by definition the majority of remaining Muslims won't hold such views. That such an analytical fallacy is a comfort to you does not surprise me.

It really is interesting "debating" issues with you, Corky. The debate keeps getting dragged on and on, into different issues, and somewhere a long the line you'll throw in a slight dig at your opponent. The only reason I directed a post towards yourself was  because you put words into my mouth, which I never said, in an earlier post that you directed at SadRed. I've since shown that I never agreed with you on the stance that "a religion can get it so wrong, even within its own ranks", and that therefore your initial premise "that Doc agreed with you" was false.

As for whatever else you've tried to bring up and shift the "debate" towards, I'm sure you already know that it doesn't hold any interest for me as I've already let you know I'm just not interested in debating with you anymore. In the meantime, there seems to be some sort of a political debate going on which I'd rather not take the spotlight away from.

[SadRed]

It was a "mad war" not because of its aim being to dispose Hussain, it was a mad war because it did not address the issue of 9/11.  It didn't have any way of tackling those who brought down the twin towers.

Except there was no Al Qaeda in Iraq. There was no link to 9/11. There sure is ISIS now.

There is nothing illegitimate about deposing a dictator who kills hundreds of thousands of his own people in cold blood.

So, we decide to kill millions of them in cold blood?

I cannot believe I am reading this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3661134.stm

Why dont we go about invading everyone else that do this? There are over 50 countries that have dictators accused of terrible human rights absues. Some we bring over to Bukcingham Palace, others we decide to dispose off when we feel like it. The millions who die are just collateral.

Such right wing neo con hawikish ideology is just as dangerous in my opinion. Infact one supports the other. Neo cons in the west want to bomb the shit out of countries because people there are terrorists, terrorists keep going because the west keep bombing people and inadvertantly killing civilians. Which makes more terrorists. Which will lead to more bombing. Which will lead to more terrorists.

[GREGtheRED]

So you are saying the Iraq was was justified?

In the minds of many politicians, commentators, analysts and obviously members of the public, it was obviously justifiable and justified. But that is not my point.

What I am saying is that appeasing psychopathic, hate-filled, murderous jihadists, be they home-grown or foreign, is not a realistic strategy for British foreign policy to follow. Many comparisons can be made between the ideologies of Islamic-fascists in the 21st century and Nazi Germany of the 1930s of whom Chamberlain was speaking. Although, thankfully, their ability to hurt us here in Britain are worlds apart.

The day that Britain decides upon placating home-grown potential jihadists above acting in our national interest and the interests of safeguarding the values and standards of Western civilization on the international stage, whether that is giving humanitarian aid to people in need up to the utilization of the armed forces against any potential threat, is the day that we cease to be an independent, robust, and respectable nation.

[Corkboy]

It really is interesting "debating" issues with you, Corky. The debate keeps getting dragged on and on, into different issues, and somewhere a long the line you'll throw in a slight dig at your opponent. The only reason I directed a post towards yourself was  because you put words into my mouth, which I never said, in an earlier post that you directed at SadRed. I've since shown that I never agreed with you on the stance that "a religion can get it so wrong, even within its own ranks", and that therefore your initial premise "that Doc agreed with you" was false.

My apologies for not being clear. What I meant was that I had badgered you for about two weeks to answer the question, if the death penalty for adultery and apostasy was not Islamic, how come so many Muslims agreed with it? Your answer was, I don't know. Equally, for SadRed, the fact that so many millions of Muslims think their religion commands them to mutilate their little girls is just a massive mystery to him. It's almost like there is more than one version of your God's word.

[Yorkykopite]

If someone has support of the public does not mean what they do is correct. Hitler had large amounts of support. Dangerous argument to use.

Again, you show your flair for debate. 

[Yorkykopite]

Also I dont know who you mean by 'we in Britain'. Surely you dont speak for everyone in Britain. A million british people marched to stop this mad war.

"We" as in 'we, the British people'.

Who says I speak for them? (Seriously, what is wrong with your comprehension?)

[SadRed]

"We" as in 'we, the British people'.

Who says I speak for them? (Seriously, what is wrong with your comprehension?)

Because you said 'We dont do it that way in Britain', i.e. decide in morality of war. But people in Britain did and they marched against this war, the largest I have ever witnessed. So I meant you cannot speak for everyone when you say 'We dont do it this way'. Its a tangent though, lets get back on topic.

[Mutton Geoff]

So you are saying the Iraq was was justified?

in my opinion if they had been honest and said it was a regime change more would have supported it given what Saddam had already done to his own people, people i think only had a problem with the subterfuge used for WMD's . I am sure the Kurds agreed with the war.

The problem we always get though is not being able to manage the peace as well as they managed the conflict.

However as a caveat i also think the creation of Iraq was a political disaster waiting to happen, we used to have a mindset of drawing lines on a map rather than looking at the people living between these lines.