Topic: Islamism

[KERRYKOP]

There was a big story coming out of Egypt about a guy who was a university graduate student, working as a personal trainer, completely liberal, then disappeared and suddenly after 8 months his facebook and twitter feeds began functioning again and he said he traveled to Syria and joined ISIS.

To say the pictures he puts on his feeds are disgusting would be an understatement. The main issue is brainwashing and ignorance, not illiteracy but ignorance.

They talked about the Gulf war being the first televised war, this could be the first war om Twitter. It's fairly unprecedented in human history having this much access to people who are fighting. Like watching the twitter feed of a Russian soldier at the end of WW2.

[Yorkykopite]

"Please save us. Please save us". An emotional plea in the Iraqi parliament from the Yazidis, being hunted down and butchered right now by ISIS in Iraq.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/JNoP-tQ5mCw?list=UUSLfzD-bhd87qM0ZPuX_ipg

[SadRed]

"Please save us. Please save us". An emotional plea in the Iraqi parliament from the Yazidis, being hunted down and butchered right now by ISIS in Iraq.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/JNoP-tQ5mCw?list=UUSLfzD-bhd87qM0ZPuX_ipg

Absolutely barking mad these ISIS. WTF is wrong with them??!

[KERRYKOP]

Medieval, is the only way I can describe it.40,000 fleeing to the mountains, 500 dead in a few days, 70 of them children.

[AA1122]

Heartbreaking.

[west_london_red]

So when there were no Islamists in Iraq we decided to invade, now that there are actually some Islamists there we do nothing.

[rscanderlech]

This is tragic.

ISIS maybe can't even be described as Islamists, in the sense that Islamists actually have an ideology which they derive from their readings of certain parts of Islam. ISIS are just raving lunatics who purport to have an ideology but who are actually just unsophisticated murderers.

Seeing as Al-Qaeda were forced to distance themselves from them.

[AA1122]

Pictures now appearing on Twitter of people fleeing Arbil. I don't know about the accuracy of them, but if that's true, people are fast running out of places to run to. There are 3 main roads out of Arbil, one to Mosul, one to Kirkuk, and one toward the more mountainous regions of Kurdistan. IS are in Kirkuk and Mosul, so they look in a good strategic position to launch an offensive.

Scary. There's no way the Kurds will run from Arbil, looks like it could be brutal. You wouldn't of thought it made sense for IS to pick a fight here, but nothing would come as a surprise after the past few months.

I hope these are just rumours, but so much has proven not to be recently. After IS's recent success in battles with the Peshmerga, you can't rule out them attacking Arbil. IS are displacing masses of people across the whole of northern Iraq.

[Yorkykopite]

So when there were no Islamists in Iraq we decided to invade, now that there are actually some Islamists there we do nothing.

And are unlikely to do anything either.

This from the New Yorker http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/friend-flees-horror-isis?utm_content=bufferdb7fb&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

It’s hard to know what, if anything, is left of the humanitarian responsibilities of the international community. The age of intervention is over, killed in large part by the Iraq war. But justifiable skepticism about the use of military force seems also to have killed off the impulse to show solidarity with the helpless victims of atrocities in faraway places. There’s barely any public awareness of the unfolding disaster in northwestern Iraq, let alone a campaign of international support for the Yazidis—or for the Christians who have been driven out of Mosul or the Sunni Arabs who don’t want to live under the tyranny of ISIS. The front-page news continues to be the war in Gaza, a particular Western obsession whether one’s views are pro-Israel, pro-Palestinian, pro-peace, or pro-plague-on-both-houses. Nothing that either side has done in that terrible conflict comes close to the routine brutality of ISIS.

Karim couldn’t help expressing bitterness about this. “I don’t see any attention from the rest of the world,” he said. “In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, ‘Save Gaza, save Gaza.’ ”

Yesterday, a senior U.S. official told me that the Obama Administration is contemplating an airlift, coördinated with the United Nations, of humanitarian supplies by C-130 transport planes to the Yazidis hiding in the Sinjar mountains. There are at least twenty thousand and perhaps as many as a hundred thousand of them, including some peshmerga militiamen providing a thin cover of protection.  The U.N. has reported that dozens of children have died of thirst in the heat. ISIS controls the entrance to the mountains. Iraqi helicopters have dropped some supplies, including food and water, but the refugees are hard to find and hard to reach.

It was encouraging to learn that humanitarian supplies might be on the way, but we always seem to be at least a step behind as ISIS rolls over local forces and consolidates power.

[Corkboy]

ISIS maybe can't even be described as Islamists, in the sense that Islamists actually have an ideology which they derive from their readings of certain parts of Islam. ISIS are just raving lunatics who purport to have an ideology but who are actually just unsophisticated murderers.

Interestingly, that sort of distinction was the font of much discussion on this thread so far. One or two posters disagreed with your interpretation of Islamists, i.e. that they have an ideology, or at least a religiously based one. I can't say I know much about ISIS but their gruntings sound much the same to me, our god says do shit which you think is evil but we don't care because Allah. A lot of what they do is very Old Testamenty stuff, pillage and seizing women as chattels and killing children and so forth. But it's really all the same batshit insane crap. Religion in "being used for hateful aims" shocker.

Here's a question, though. What better inspiration is there for getting good men to do horrible things? Patriotism (itself a form of religion)? Money? Love?

[SadRed]

So when there were no Islamists in Iraq we decided to invade, now that there are actually some Islamists there we do nothing.

There was an air strike today.

But I still think this will not be a way to beat them. As we have seen numerous times in Afghanistan, Yemen and Somalia. ISIS came to power with a support from various sunni tribes in the region, in fact even supported by former ba'athists. They all are not comfortable allies, only united by their grievance agaisnt the government in baghdad. Infact I would support Iraq splitting up (as if it hasnt already) into Kurdish, Shia and Sunni. The only issue is to get rid of ISIS and get a reasonable bunch of people in the sunni bit.

I think the way will be to not support Maliki, rather support the sunnis in their quest for a separate state and at the same time give them the opportunity to fight ISIS, like the FSA. This will happen soon or less, this is what we need to be prepared for. But concept of Iraq needs to be abandoned as it appeals to no one.

[SadRed]

Here's a question, though. What better inspiration is there for getting good men to do horrible things? Patriotism (itself a form of religion)? Money? Love?

I think its rather more simple - horrible people do horrible things. Good people do good things. No matter the inspiration.

[Corkboy]

I think its rather more simple - horrible people do horrible things. Good people do good things. No matter the inspiration.

I don't buy that. Too many ordinary decent men have gone to war and done horrible things for that to be so. Guns don't inspire people to kill people, nor do knives or stones. The guy Y2J was talking about above is an interesting example. I wonder did he find religion or did religion find him, or was he driven into a movement which happened to be religious, rather than say fascist, and was it because of a family death or a broken heart or being bullied or was it just the religion. That sort of thing.

[SadRed]

I don't buy that. Too many ordinary decent men have gone to war and done horrible things for that to be so. Guns don't inspire people to kill people, nor do knives or stones. The guy Y2J was talking about above is an interesting example. I wonder did he find religion or did religion find him, or was he driven into a movement which happened to be religious, rather than say fascist, and was it because of a family death or a broken heart or being bullied or was it just the religion. That sort of thing.

I wouldnt call anyone decent when he/she goes to war and does horrible things. For love, patriotism, war, religion or money - whatever the reason.  In fact it is when you have the courage to counter your ideology/desire and accept when it is wrong, that is a good person.

It can appear so however - lets say a close friend who is absolutely normal and decent, joins the army and does horrible things to civilians in wartime - he is, in my opinion, harboring a side which you may not see in day to day life but is visible in an extreme situation. It wouldnt absolve him of his moral responsibility. Because not all men do horrible things in war, and thats the distinguishing bit.

Being psychologically affected deeply is a completely different thing, it can affect their mental state. Despite this, many people go through horrendous things in life, but they all dont end up being terrorists. So clearly, the critical thing is not the circumstance or ideology, rather the individual.

Perhaps a balanced argument would be there is a scale of people, some who are always upright and will not do harm, whereas others are more prone to under duress. And some nasty pricks who are just plain nasty.

[Corkboy]

If we follow your logic, a disproportionate amount of Arabs and indeed Jews are further along your nasty scale than say Finns or Fijians right now. Whereas a century ago, it would have been Germans and British and French and so on.

[SadRed]

If we follow your logic, a disproportionate amount of Arabs and indeed Jews are further along your nasty scale than say Finns or Fijians right now. Whereas a century ago, it would have been Germans and British and French and so on.

Perhaps a balanced argument would be there is a scale of people, some who are always upright and will not do harm, whereas others are more prone to under duress. And some nasty pricks who are just plain nasty.

[Corkboy]

You'd better read my post again. The concentrations on the scales seem to vary according to geopolitical forces, rather than being a constant, as you suggest. In Germany in 1914, and again in 1939, there seems to have been an awful lot of nasty pricks and yet since then, they've been very nice. Generally speaking.

[jooneyisdagod]

Corky is spot on. Its a bit like the 'Golden generation' idea we keep hearing in footballing circles. The Arab world must be having a particularly torrid generation coming through the youth ranks at the moment. Like the Germans did back in the 1940's for example. But really when you look a bit closer into the golden generation idea, more often than not, these generations are preceded in football by a revolution in coaching methods and in the Arab world, I'm guessing there has been a revolution of the religious kind.

[rscanderlech]

Interestingly, that sort of distinction was the font of much discussion on this thread so far. One or two posters disagreed with your interpretation of Islamists, i.e. that they have an ideology, or at least a religiously based one. I can't say I know much about ISIS but their gruntings sound much the same to me, our god says do shit which you think is evil but we don't care because Allah. A lot of what they do is very Old Testamenty stuff, pillage and seizing women as chattels and killing children and so forth. But it's really all the same batshit insane crap. Religion in "being used for hateful aims" shocker.

Here's a question, though. What better inspiration is there for getting good men to do horrible things? Patriotism (itself a form of religion)? Money? Love?

There is religion, and then there is ideology. Ideology is something that was really born with Hegel and those German philosopher fellows a couple of centuries ago. These trends in Western thought found their way into the Islamic world during the Colonial era in particular. Within Islamic philosophical discourse, I incline towards those who consider what newspapers and media generally refer to as 'Islamism' is usually Islamically-charged political ideology. (If you want to know more about these trends, you can read any kind of serious academic work by people like Tariq Ramadan, Seyyed Hossein Nasr and so on.)

Groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda (two very different groups which should not be lumped together!), I think, have ideological aspects; that is, a certain political theory of history (which is informed by Islam), potentially (depending on the group, the time and place) a millennialist attitude; that is, ideas about the end of times turned into actual political positions, which you see among Evangelical Christians on the one hand and among Al Qaeda on the other, and so on. It's when particular, limited insights into reality are transformed into a grand theory of all reality - think Karl Marx - that an ideology is born. From that point of view, most Islamist groups probably have some identifiable ideology if you study them, staying well away from the articles that often very ignorant journalists are publishing in broadsheet newspapers and actually learning about Islam in the modern world.

Ideology can come from a religion even if it causes you to not conform with the religion. As a Muslim myself, I find that the vast majority of these groups are in the wrong, and that it's precisely because they have rendered aspects of the religion into ideology.

What I notice about ISIS is that their actions and statements don't even appear to be rooted in Islamic civilisation or in these limited ideologies that might come out of Islam. They really are just raving pillagers with a very very rudimentary, unsophisticated agenda. They are like the very early terrorists of Islamic history that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) warned about, called the Khawarij. I suppose that they do have ideology, but only a very, very unsophisticated one.

On the question of what is better inspiration for committing evil, well, I don't consider these Islamists to be inspired authentically by religion, but otherwise, secular ideologies have done pretty well for war, destruction, social disrepair, environmental crisis and so forth. The accusation that religion is the root of all the bad things in the world is so simplistic.

[AA1122]

(If you want to know more about these trends, you can read any kind of serious academic work by people like Tariq Ramadan, Seyyed Hossein Nasr and so on.)

As an aside, I read Tariq Ramadan's 'The Quest for Meaning: Developing A Philosophy of Pluralism' recently and I was quite impressed, he pretty much encapsulates the way that I view the world in that book. Nothing groundbreaking, but a satisfying read and lesson in understanding the world. I did find the final chapter a little smug, but it was an enjoyable read.

[Yorkykopite]

The world watches - or a tiny proportion does - as a genocide happens in northern Iraq. This piece tells us about a culture and a people that are about to become extinct. Their crime? "Infidels". The religion of the Yezidi might seem weird and crazy. But it's no weirder and crazier than the religion of the people who are now destroying them - and a lot less violent.

Death of a religion: Isis and the Yezidi
By Sean Thomas August 6th, 2014

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100282674/death-of-a-religion-isis-and-the-yezidi/

They are scared of lettuce. They abhor pumpkins. They practise maybe the oldest religion in the world. And now, after at least 6,000 years, they are finally being exterminated, even as I write this.

If you haven’t noticed this epochal crime – the raping and the slaughter – you’re not alone. Of late, the world has focused on the horrors of Gaza. When we’ve had time to acknowledge the Satanic cruelties of Isis, in Iraq, we’ve looked to the barbaric treatment of women, and Christians. Yet the genocide of the Yezidi, by Isis, is as evil as anything going on right now in the Middle East; it is also uniquely destructive of a remarkable cultural survival.

So who are the Yezidi? Some years ago I studied them when researching a thriller. I also traveled to meet their small diaspora community, in Celle, north Germany. And what I found was astonishing.

Yezidism is much older than Islam, and much older than Christianity. It is also deeply peculiar. The Yezidi honour sacred trees. Women must not cut their hair. Marriage is forbidden in April. They avoid wearing dark blue because it is "too holy".

They are divided strictly into castes, who cannot marry each other. The upper castes are polygamous. Anyone of the faith who marries a non-Yezidi risks ostracism, or worse. Yezidism is syncretistic: it combines elements of many faiths. Like Hindus, they believe in reincarnation. Like ancient Mithraists, they sacrifice bulls. They practise baptism, like Christians. When they pray, they face the sun – like Zoroastrians. There are also strong links with Sufism, the mystical branch of Islam.
Then there is the devil worship: arguably, the Yezidi worship what Christians or Muslims might call “Satan”, though the Yezidi call him “Melek Taus”, and he appears in the form of a peacock angel.

Why might Melek Taus be “the devil”? For a start, the Yezidi believe the peacock angel led a rebellion in heaven: clearly echoing the story of Lucifer, cast into Hell by the Christian God. Also, the very word "Melek" is cognate with "Moloch", the name of a Biblical demon – who demanded human sacrifice.
The avian imagery of Melek Taus likewise indicates a demonic aspect. The Yezidi come from the ancient lands of Sumeria and Assyria, in modern-day Turkey, Iraq and Kurdistan. Sumerian gods were often cruel, and equipped with beaks and wings. Birdlike. Three thousand years ago the Assyrians worshipped flying demons, spirits of the desert wind. One was the scaly-winged demon in The Exorcist: Pazuzu.

The Yezidi reverence for birds – and snakes – also appears to be extremely old. Excavations at ancient Catalhoyuk, in Turkey, show that the people there revered bird-gods as long ago as 7000BC. Even older is Gobekli Tepe, a megalithic site near Sanliurfa, in Kurdish Turkey (Sanliurfa was once a stronghold of Yezidism). The extraordinary temple of Gobekli Tepe boasts carvings of winged birdmen, and images of buzzards and serpents.

Taking all this evidence into account, a fair guess is that Yezidism is a vastly ancient form of bird-worship, that could date back 6,000 years or more. If this is right, it means that Yezidism is therefore the Ur-religion, the mother ship of Middle Eastern faiths, and it is us who have incorporated Yezidi myths and beliefs into our religions, of Christianity and Islam and Judaism.
And now, in the dusty cities of northern Iraq, Yezidism is finally dying. Moloch has returned to devour the gentle and peaceful Yezidi people, in the form of hateful, virulent, sadistic Islamism. Put it another way, the devil has revealed a sense of irony, even as the rest of us sit back, and passively watch the most ancient culture in the world being erased from human history.

[jerseyhoya]

A Friend Flees the Horror of ISIS

It’s hard to know what, if anything, is left of the humanitarian responsibilities of the international community. The age of intervention is over, killed in large part by the Iraq war. But justifiable skepticism about the use of military force seems also to have killed off the impulse to show solidarity with the helpless victims of atrocities in faraway places. There’s barely any public awareness of the unfolding disaster in northwestern Iraq, let alone a campaign of international support for the Yazidis—or for the Christians who have been driven out of Mosul or the Sunni Arabs who don’t want to live under the tyranny of ISIS. The front-page news continues to be the war in Gaza, a particular Western obsession whether one’s views are pro-Israel, pro-Palestinian, pro-peace, or pro-plague-on-both-houses. Nothing that either side has done in that terrible conflict comes close to the routine brutality of ISIS.

Karim couldn’t help expressing bitterness about this. “I don’t see any attention from the rest of the world,” he said. “In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, ‘Save Gaza, save Gaza.’ ”

Yesterday, a senior U.S. official told me that the Obama Administration is contemplating an airlift, coördinated with the United Nations, of humanitarian supplies by C-130 transport planes to the Yazidis hiding in the Sinjar mountains. There are at least twenty thousand and perhaps as many as a hundred thousand of them, including some peshmerga militiamen providing a thin cover of protection.  The U.N. has reported that dozens of children have died of thirst in the heat. ISIS controls the entrance to the mountains. Iraqi helicopters have dropped some supplies, including food and water, but the refugees are hard to find and hard to reach.

Compelling piece from George Packer of the New Yorker that the west, especially the United States, should be doing more to help in Iraq, but attention is directed elsewhere. Hopefully, as is suggested later in the piece, we are doing something already and clandestinely arming the Kurds.

[Corkboy]

On the question of what is better inspiration for committing evil, well, I don't consider these Islamists to be inspired authentically by religion

Aaaand we're back five pages. Doc Red would be pleased.

Would I be right in thinking that no violence ever comes from an authentic version of Islam, despite the obvious violence done in its name and the obvious violence in many Islamic scriptures (and indeed Christian ones)?

[[new username under construction]]

Is this a plan or something? The west let's ISIS gain as much territory as possible knowing they'll never actually be a major threat and then roll in as saviour of the middle east?

I'm not being a smart ass I'm asking

[Yorkykopite]

Is this a plan or something? The west let's ISIS gain as much territory as possible knowing they'll never actually be a major threat and then roll in as saviour of the middle east?

I'm not being a smart ass I'm asking

I don't think so. It's more likely that ISIS have the plan. And perhaps they already are "a major threat".

40,000 Iraqis stranded on mountain as Isis jihadists threaten death
Members of minority Yazidi sect face slaughter if they go down and dehydration if they stay, while 130,000 fled to Kurdish north
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/40000-iraqis-stranded-mountain-isis-death-threat

[Broad Spectrum]

I don't think so. It's more likely that ISIS have the plan. And perhaps they already are "a major threat".

40,000 Iraqis stranded on mountain as Isis jihadists threaten death
Members of minority Yazidi sect face slaughter if they go down and dehydration if they stay, while 130,000 fled to Kurdish north
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/40000-iraqis-stranded-mountain-isis-death-threat

What do you think their overall goal is in this? And I mean senior figures such as al-Baghdadi, and anyone (Westerners?) else who may be governing this military group.

[Libero]

Is this a plan or something?

You're right, It is a plan. 

I mean, you have to wonder why a globally designated terrorist group like ISIS seem to have consolidated power with such ease with limited equipment, and then, a bit like the movie falling down, going on to gain better weaponry as they progress on their horrible journey. 

How did a nutty group with unkempt beards, 1970s slippers, guns and knives manage to do so well and end up having more & more equipment?   It is too easy to say "they put fear into others".  Mighty odd, that in an age where we've got amazing satellites / drones / lasers even, this group openly congregates together and have continued to thrive.

Money?  ok, what's that in Iraqi Dinars? (please!), more like Petrodollars, because just like Syria, the oil continues to flow - it is just that those selling it are now a different group.

Horrible, Horrible, Horrible group, and some of their propaganda would make a talmudist like Manis Friedman proud.


More considered analysts have stated that this ISIS group are "Khurooj" (not sure of the spelling - but worth checking out?) - In fact, as I recall when an interviewer suggested this to an ISIS terrorist, the latter totally lost the plot - the kind of reaction that proves a point I think.  Clearly, they are rejected by most of the 1.8 Billion Muslims on this earth.

Worryingly, whilst shmoozing this thread I came across this scary post:

In fact Islamism [is] ignorant (about anything except the Book).

Suggesting what exactly? That ISIS / Islamists are interpreting "The Book" in non-ignorant way? seems a bit dangerous to the 1.8 Billion Muslims who actually believe that it is the Islamists that are in fact ignorant about "The Book";

Given that the majority of Muslims reject & oppose ISIS as "khurooj", does this then make the majority of ordinary Muslims who are anti-ISIS ignorant of "The Book"?

Scary indeed, but the show must go on...

[SadRed]

You'd better read my post again. The concentrations on the scales seem to vary according to geopolitical forces, rather than being a constant, as you suggest. In Germany in 1914, and again in 1939, there seems to have been an awful lot of nasty pricks and yet since then, they've been very nice. Generally speaking.

Ok fair point.

[Euskadi]

You're right, It is a plan. 

I mean, you have to wonder why a globally designated terrorist group like ISIS seem to have consolidated power with such ease with limited equipment, and then, a bit like the movie falling down, going on to gain better weaponry as they progress on their horrible journey. 

How did a nutty group with unkempt beards, 1970s slippers, guns and knives manage to do so well and end up having more & more equipment?   It is too easy to say "they put fear into others".  Mighty odd, that in an age where we've got amazing satellites / drones / lasers even, this group openly congregates together and have continued to thrive.

Money?  ok, what's that in Iraqi Dinars? (please!), more like Petrodollars, because just like Syria, the oil continues to flow - it is just that those selling it are now a different group.

Horrible, Horrible, Horrible group, and some of their propaganda would make a talmudist like Manis Friedman proud.


More considered analysts have stated that this ISIS group are "Khurooj" (not sure of the spelling - but worth checking out?) - In fact, as I recall when an interviewer suggested this to an ISIS terrorist, the latter totally lost the plot - the kind of reaction that proves a point I think.  Clearly, they are rejected by most of the 1.8 Billion Muslims on this earth.

Worryingly, whilst shmoozing this thread I came across this scary post:


Suggesting what exactly? That ISIS / Islamists are interpreting "The Book" in non-ignorant way? seems a bit dangerous to the 1.8 Billion Muslims who actually believe that it is the Islamists that are in fact ignorant about "The Book";

Given that the majority of Muslims reject & oppose ISIS as "khurooj", does this then make the majority of ordinary Muslims who are anti-ISIS ignorant of "The Book"?

Scary indeed, but the show must go on...

Agreed, found this bit rather ill thought out and somewhat offensive most notably from someone who has previously admitted that he does not have much knowledge on the Qu'uran itself. I considered reporting it but then thought that it might kill off any proper discussion the issue of Islamism. Shame that this sort of leniency was not extended to the recently locked Palestinian thread.

[Broad Spectrum]

You're right, It is a plan. 

I mean, you have to wonder why a globally designated terrorist group like ISIS seem to have consolidated power with such ease with limited equipment, and then, a bit like the movie falling down, going on to gain better weaponry as they progress on their horrible journey. 

How did a nutty group with unkempt beards, 1970s slippers, guns and knives manage to do so well and end up having more & more equipment?   It is too easy to say "they put fear into others".  Mighty odd, that in an age where we've got amazing satellites / drones / lasers even, this group openly congregates together and have continued to thrive.

Money?  ok, what's that in Iraqi Dinars? (please!), more like Petrodollars, because just like Syria, the oil continues to flow - it is just that those selling it are now a different group.

Horrible, Horrible, Horrible group, and some of their propaganda would make a talmudist like Manis Friedman proud.

When they took over the numerous outposts the Iraqi army deserted what do you think they found upon their arrival? Millions and millions of pounds/dollars worth of military hardware, provided to the Iraqi army by the US, UK, NATO/UN etc. during the occupation of Iraq during the 00's.

In addition, it's been claimed (obviously difficult to verify information such as this) that members of this 'terrorist' group were in fact recruited and trained by US military personnel in Jordan in 2011/2012 to help protect the insurgents fighting the Assad regime in Syria.

Although what you see on TV is crazy, radicalised young Muslim men, some of whom have been recruited from Western countries such as the UK, it would be foolish to believe that these men are being led by anything other than highly trained military personnel. If some of the men leading the military operations within ISIS have indeed been trained by US forces, these may well be here to stay.

[Euskadi]

A Friend Flees the Horror of ISIS
Compelling piece from George Packer of the New Yorker that the west, especially the United States, should be doing more to help in Iraq, but attention is directed elsewhere. Hopefully, as is suggested later in the piece, we are doing something already and clandestinely arming the Kurds.

Yeah lets just arm everyone because that seems to have worked in Lybia, Syria or even in Palestine with Israel/America arming Hamas. It is not a long term solution, in fact in the long run recent history shows that it is a poor solution.

[Corkboy]

Suggesting what exactly? That ISIS / Islamists are interpreting "The Book" in non-ignorant way? seems a bit dangerous to the 1.8 Billion Muslims who actually believe that it is the Islamists that are in fact ignorant about "The Book";

Given that the majority of Muslims reject & oppose ISIS as "khurooj", does this then make the majority of ordinary Muslims who are anti-ISIS ignorant of "The Book"?

Agreed, found this bit rather ill thought out and somewhat offensive most notably from someone who has previously admitted that he does not have much knowledge on the Qu'uran itself. I considered reporting it but then thought that it might kill off any proper discussion the issue of Islamism. Shame that this sort of leniency was not extended to the recently locked Palestinian thread.

Eh? What were you considering reporting it for, being offensive? To whom?

It is an unfortunate feature of a religion that it can be used for many different ends. For every Muslim who says Islam is a peaceful religion, there will be another who thinks Islam mandates killing for apostasy. Both sets of Muslims clearly get their inspiration from the same source and yet you're casting aspersions on people who are simply pointing this out. It is not offensive to point out the unmistakable truth that Islamists derive their inspiration from the exact same words that "ordinary" Muslims do, just like it is not offensive to point out that the Westboro Church get their inspiration from the same source that the Pope does. In each case, it is up to the followers of each religion to square that circle, not the objective onlookers.

[Euskadi]

Eh? What were you considering reporting it for, being offensive? To whom?

It is an unfortunate feature of a religion that it can be used for many different ends. For every Muslim who says Islam is a peaceful religion, there will be another who thinks Islam mandates killing for apostasy. Both sets of Muslims clearly get their inspiration from the same source and yet you're casting aspersions on people who are simply pointing this out. It is not offensive to point out the unmistakable truth that Islamists derive their inspiration from the exact same words that "ordinary" Muslims do, just like it is not offensive to point out that the Westboro Church get their inspiration from the same source that the Pope does. In each case, it is up to the followers of each religion to square that circle, not the objective onlookers.

I have absolutely no issue with everything you have just said Corkboy and in fact I agree with a lot of it, however what I don't agree with is the double standards on this thread compared to the other. I called up Libero immediately for making an inflammatory and offensive statement regarding Israelis in the same way that on this thread others have taken up people for ignorant Islamophobic posts, therefore my question why is the leniency afforded on this thread and not on the other.

Edit: Disregard this post.

[bigbonedrawky]

 Both sets of Muslims clearly get their inspiration from the same source

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Judaism
 If we look at the root of it and follow the logic I think all Christians and Muslims are guilty of Apostasy by default.

[Yorkykopite]

Agreed, found this bit rather ill thought out and somewhat offensive most notably from someone who has previously admitted that he does not have much knowledge on the Qu'uran itself. I considered reporting it but then thought that it might kill off any proper discussion the issue of Islamism. Shame that this sort of leniency was not extended to the recently locked Palestinian thread.

Go on, report it. It'll make you feel better.

[Libero]

Eh? What were you considering reporting it for, being offensive? To whom?

It is an unfortunate feature of a religion that it can be used for many different ends. For every Muslim who says Islam is a peaceful religion, there will be another who thinks Islam mandates killing for apostasy. Both sets of Muslims clearly get their inspiration from the same source and yet you're casting aspersions on people who are simply pointing this out. It is not offensive to point out the unmistakable truth that Islamists derive their inspiration from the exact same words that "ordinary" Muslims do, just like it is not offensive to point out that the Westboro Church get their inspiration from the same source that the Pope does. In each case, it is up to the followers of each religion to square that circle, not the objective onlookers.

Yes, Corkboy, fair comment.  And of course you are correct:  Many people have different many views on many topics. 


That said, can I also add that you don't have to be Muslim to be offended by what could reasonably be interpreted as hate-inciting remarks, no matter how well hidden.  The sad thing is in the end, it will only hurt the domain that allows these comments to seep through, more so than the posters who utter such nonsense.

And, a double kudos for you insofar as that I get your point (and the previous ones too) when citing Islam and Christianity as having violent phrases in them; but may I ask, why the omission of the Talmud?  A bit exclusionary no?    

I mean, if I may say so, I think you're missing on hell of a violent-fest of a read, if you're into that sort of thing.  Just a little advice: do not have some sections of it as prescribed bed-time reading, otherwise you'll start to believe in monsters!



But yeah,  back to ISIS:  The parallels with Early Zionism are uncanny: 

Both want an insert-religion-here-only state.

Both are using terrorism to try to achieve it (one is far more advanced in its terrorism having achieved "state-hood")

Both will evict and subjugate its current inhabitants of the time to gain hold of the land.

Both (wrongly in  my personal view!) claim they are using religion to achieve objectives - including "scriptures" - for example Simeon bar Yochai's utterances give an all new meaning to "terror", and make that Baghdadi character blush.

Both state that many of their people perished at the hands of Europeans (in the case of ISIS, the USA too)....

I guess if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[Yorkykopite]

Early Zionism of course was a secular movement vehemently opposed by the Orthodox Jewish community in just about every land where stateless Jews were being persecuted. Its methods were political not military. It sought to win the argument in its own community and among the democratic nations of the world. To that end it built up its own representative institutions which operated freely and openly. It didn't believe it had a monopoly on truth and it didn't force Jews to become zionists. 

[Libero]

So then the so-called mythical "stateless", took by force an existing state, caused all manner of carnage, murder and terror, to create a new state, through terrorism.  And is now currently heralded as a "one-religion" state - Officially I might add.

Interesting, but doesn't change the fact that ISIS and Zionism :

Both want an insert-religion-here-only state.

Both are using terrorism to try to achieve it (one is far more advanced in its terrorism having achieved "state-hood")

Both will evict and subjugate its current inhabitants of the time to gain hold of the land.

Both (wrongly in  my personal view!) claim they are using religion to achieve objectives - including "scriptures" - for example Simeon bar Yochai's utterances give an all new meaning to "terror", and make that Baghdadi character blush.

Both state that many of their people perished at the hands of Europeans (in the case of ISIS, the USA too)....

Those parallels remain intact, factual, and true.


Speaking of "monopolies" and "force", when considering Early Zionism:

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not...You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world." (ChaimWeizmann, Published in "Judische Rundschau," No. 4, 1920)

And modern Zionism goes on to state...

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz* Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

 
It really is a case of Groucho Marx with some people:

Who are you going to believe, me or your lyin' eyes?

* Please note that Eretz Israel isn't done yet.  So actually, there's another parallel to add:  The land expansionism isn't complete for either ISIS or Israel (Eretz)

[Yorkykopite]

Anyway, leaving the Jews aside for a moment to return to the works of Islamism....

Up to a quarter of Iraq's Christians are now said to be fleeing.

Iraq Christians flee as Islamic State takes Qaraqosh
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28686998

[XabiAlonsosBeard]

Why is everybody going on about ISIS in Iraq and Syria and ignoring what's happening in Gaza.....