Topic: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.

[gregorio]

Alberto should be given a go but I'd keep Hendo as RB due to our defensive crisis, he is a reasonable defender.

Blackburn away season before last when Jones was sent off he went to RB and played really well

[steveeastend]

You don't need to win the first ball, though. In fact, it's favourable that you don't. What you need to do is identify the defender with the poorest touch in the opposition backline, and always send the ball in that direction. Make sure your attacking mid/furthest central mid has the legs to get up and press, and then have the rest of the team pushing aggressively towards the ball as the ball is travelling forward - so the defender is now being pressed by 4-5 players, rather than just one. It's the second ball that's the most important. On Saturday, Southampton won over 20 more "second balls" than we did.

But that´s make sense why we couldn´t control the game though. With Henderson having the legs but not the technique to keep the ball, Gerrard not able to press that´s only Lucas left which makes it impossible to "boss" the midfield in winning second balls.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I agree our terrible lack of fitness appears to be really hampering us.

We were promised amazing new training regimes and the players have reported we had an extremely gruelling preseason this year and it's not as though we've spent every minute of every game pressing.

Yet the players are plainly knackered in comparison to our opponents who seem to find a second wind with 25 minutes to go.

Is anyone able to explain in simple terms what has gone wrong?

Don't be so glib about it, if you can't understand it.

We messed up our periodization. Pure and simple. And we haven't been playing the possession game that would allow us to recover our intensity within the game.

On the other hand, after Christmas, all of those teams who are looking like thoroughbred racehorses now, will start to fade rapidly after the 60th minute in games. It's a trade-off between wanting to be 100% fit now, and hoping you can maintain it for a whole year of gruelling games - or surviving on 70-80% fitness now and building up to 100% fitness by mid-season and being able to better maintain that 100% intensity for the run-in.

In graphic terms, it's best explained this way:



Traditional English fitness training is designed to get players as fit as possible, as fast as possible. The drawbacks to this are, of course, the tapering off in the second half of the season, and the possibility of injuries early on

Periodized training involved a slow build-up towards peak fitness at the start of the most competitive part of the season - the last 19 games. The drawbacks of this, are the possibility of a slow start, and the possibility of fitter teams out-working your team. The benefits, though, are that you will be fresher in the run-in than most of your opponents.

As a comparison, Barcelona's training periodization involved two peaks, because they have a mid-winter break. So they always look fit going into the second half of a season because they essentially have two "pre-seasons". They also do almost all of their work with a ball and small sided games.

If you are to follow a traditional English plan, then it's best to have a large squad that you can rotate. Failure to do so leads to a lot of injuries especially in the second half of the season (O'Neill at Villa is a good example of how this can happen). If you are to follow the Periodized plan, you don't need so much of a big squad, but you have to follow the plan to the letter. My guess is that Rodgers fell between the two stools, and tried to make a compromise, and so far it's not working. However, we may still see the benefits of it later in the season when all players are at 100%

[PhaseOfPlay]

But that´s make sense why we couldn´t control the game though. With Henderson having the legs but not the technique to keep the ball, Gerrard not able to press that´s only Lucas left which makes it impossible to "boss" the midfield in winning second balls.

Plus - Henderson has been out on the right, so he's not even in a position to challenge for the second ball most of the time. Until that part is fixed, we're probably going to suffer a bit. Allen in for Coutinho might help, though.

[Yorkykopite]

Five increasingly dodgy performances is a fairer representation.

This is mystifying. We beat Man Utd, played a measured game for a win at Villa Park, outplayed Swansea for 55 minutes on their pitch and were unlucky not to score 5 against Stoke. Southampton was a horrible performance but I can't understand why you're so badly misreading the previous ones Rossi. I wrongly inferred from your original post that you simply hadn't seen them. But now it seems you have which is just plain puzzling.

[sattapaartridge]

Thanks for that Phaseofplay, thats quite informative, and almost definitely the idea would be to get the team to 100% before December where fixtures start coming thick and fast with the possibility of CC, FAC and league fixtures. To be 100% at the business end of the season will definitely be the idea, as its pivotal that we come in that top 4.

Question is, do we have enough in the squad to either rotate or replace tired/injured players with? The answer at this moment seems to be 'no'.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Thanks for that Phaseofplay, thats quite informative, and almost definitely the idea would be to get the team to 100% before December where fixtures start coming thick and fast with the possibility of CC, FAC and league fixtures. To be 100% at the business end of the season will definitely be the idea, as its pivotal that we come in that top 4.

Question is, do we have enough in the squad to either rotate or replace tired/injured players with? The answer at this moment seems to be 'no'.

And it could be that Rodgers thought the answer was "yes", and switched the training accordingly. That's where I think he might have made a mistake.

[Jizzinho]

/snip/

Thanks for the explanation.

What I don't "understand" is that our techniques have left us looking markedly less fit than our opponents.

So there are a few problems from my comprehension of what you have written.

Firstly, there’s no excuse for our plan to have “fallen between two stools”. We have known the league schedule for quite a while now. We knew Suarez would be out at the beginning of the season. We haven’t had the kinds of injuries that would justify changing our entire system of play so why doesn’t our fitness plan marry up with the way we want to play on the pitch?

In another post you accused Souness of using fitness techniques without properly understanding how to use them. Given the condition of our squad, isn’t that exactly what we have done?

Secondly – if we are aiming to decrease injuries in the second half of the season by peaking fitness during the season (which is hardly a new or cutting edge technique in top level professional football) it seems odd that the players have all been reporting about what a gruelling preseason they have had – especially in comparison to last year – which was meant to prepare them for getting a jumpstart on other teams’ fitness.

Lastly, the points available now are just as important to us as the points in the second half of the season. Whilst we may steal a march on other teams then there is also the possibility we could have been knocked out of the running for competitions by then due to our fitness concerns.


Meanwhile the fittest team Liverpool team we have seen was trained by Rafa and Pako using long stints of running to build up stamina. An approach also used by Jurgen Klopp for one of the current fittest teams in Europe.

Yet they’re wrong and our approach is the “correct” one despite the fact that our players are hanging on at the end of matches like grim death because there isn’t any more fuel in the tank?

Not very convincing I’m afraid.

EDIT:

And it could be that Rodgers thought the answer was "yes", and switched the training accordingly. That's where I think he might have made a mistake.

Rodgers is in charge of the components and size of the squad - unless he has a replacement for Lucas and Gerrard waiting in the wings we havn'e been told about how did you reach this conclusion?

[GrkStav]

You know how you sometimes feel that, while you haven't prepared properly for a difficult task, you have a series of more important/crucial tasks coming up and you decide, "I think that's going to be enough to get me through this next task and I can then concentrate on the next tasks"?

I think this is what happened here with BR. Our having had 'success' vs AVFC and MUFC and getting through vs STFC in the League Cup, without playing really well probably, and unfortunately, gave him a false sense of 'security'.

That was precisely the wrong 'lesson' to take away from the three successive victories plus the League Cup encounter.

BR has been repeating the 3 games in 12 days a bit too much for us to ignore it as being part of his thinking and preparation of the squad.

I hope Wisdom doesn't get, effectively, blacklisted going forward and for a while.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Meanwhile the fittest team Liverpool team we have seen was trained by Rafa and Pako using long stints of running to build up stamina. An approach also used by Jurgen Klopp for one of the current fittest teams in Europe.

Yet they’re wrong and our approach is the “correct” one despite the fact that our players are hanging on at the end of matches like grim death because there isn’t any more fuel in the tank?

Not very convincing I’m afraid.

Wrong and wrong. They use lactate threshold training which works on the anaerobic threshold, which is done in short and sharp bursts, with smaller rest intervals between reps.

[BazC]

Wrong and wrong. They use lactate threshold training which works on the anaerobic threshold, which is done in short and sharp bursts, with smaller rest intervals between reps.

What does that mean, they try and maximise the period during which the player can respire aerobically before anaerobic respiration kicks in?

Proper science and stuff in football these days. Even room for the quants and stuff in the strategising department ha. Love it.

[PhaseOfPlay]

What does that mean, they try and maximise the period during which the player can respire aerobically before anaerobic respiration kicks in?

Other way around.

Proper science and stuff in football these days. Even room for the quants and stuff in the strategising department ha. Love it.

This was all new on the continent in the mid 80's and earlier. It's only new in English football because English football is always at least a decade behind the times.

[BazC]

Ah interesting, thought it would be the other way around as aerobic is more efficient so guessed they'd try to maximise that period (if that's even possible given the various mechanisms and reactions involved). I guess it's more about being able to sustain anaerobic respiration then (so lactic acid builds up at higher levels of respiration). Which would in turn allow the athlete to endure greater levels of high respiration.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Ah interesting, thought it would be the other way around as aerobic is more efficient so guessed they'd try to maximise that period (if that's even possible given the various mechanisms and reactions involved). I guess it's more about being able to sustain anaerobic respiration then (so lactic acid builds up at higher levels of respiration). Which would in turn allow the athlete to endure greater levels of high respiration.

It's a delicate balance of working the ATP/PC system, the lactic system, and the aerobic system.

The former thinking was that you had to build an aerobic base first, and then work on the ATP and Lactic systems, but we now know that you can train all systems concurrently, as long as you train them at the right times within a training session. Doing sprints at the end of a session will not have the desired effect, as ATP/PC is most likely depleted. So you train that at the beginning, Lactic threshold in the middle, and Aerobic over the course of the majority of the session - hence the move to small sided games as a model of fitness training.

[John C]

This.
I've been saying this for years (often, to myself, as well). 'Evaluating' backwards from results is lousy analysis.
"We must have played well enough, we won." "We must've played poorly, we lost" etc.
Not so.

Alternatively you can trust peoples judgement to decide when they've witnesses an unlucky draw or defeat as opposed to a fair defeat because we played crap, mate.

[Draex]

It's a delicate balance of working the ATP/PC system, the lactic system, and the aerobic system.

The former thinking was that you had to build an aerobic base first, and then work on the ATP and Lactic systems, but we now know that you can train all systems concurrently, as long as you train them at the right times within a training session. Doing sprints at the end of a session will not have the desired effect, as ATP/PC is most likely depleted. So you train that at the beginning, Lactic threshold in the middle, and Aerobic over the course of the majority of the session - hence the move to small sided games as a model of fitness training.

I reckon its because of his own personal training schedule, forcing the lads into long runs to build stamina as he's trying to keep the pounds off.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I reckon its because of his own personal training schedule, forcing the lads into long runs to build stamina as he's trying to keep the pounds off.

He looks like Duncan Bannatyne in that

"Stewart, your wages are too high, and you don't beat your man, or score enough goals - and for that reason, I am out".

[Jizzinho]

/snip/
Meanwhile the fittest team Liverpool team we have seen was trained by Rafa and Pako using long stints of running to build up stamina. An approach also used by Jurgen Klopp for one of the current fittest teams in Europe.

Yet they’re wrong and our approach is the “correct” one despite the fact that our players are hanging on at the end of matches like grim death because there isn’t any more fuel in the tank?
/snip/

Wrong and wrong. They use lactate threshold training which works on the anaerobic threshold, which is done in short and sharp bursts, with smaller rest intervals between reps.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/craig-bellamy-lifts-lid-life-4041459

“The next day, I met Pako Ayestaran, Rafa’s assistant and the fitness coach. The fitness routines were not that imaginative.
It was army style, really. Long, plodding runs mainly. It was very professional with heart monitors and fitness belts but there was no camaraderie while they took place. It was all double sessions, tactical work, standing in position, walk-throughs of tactical play. Rafa oversaw it all.”

http://footballspeak.com/post/2013/05/16/The-German-Football.aspx

“Pressing opponents relentlessly throughout a game requires players to be as fit as is physically and technically possible. Klopp has trained his players to develop incredible stamina, as evidenced by their Bundesliga and Champions League running distance statistics. Dortmund certainly work tirelessly with and without the ball.”

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/5343?cc=5739

Dortmund's fitness level is one of the best in Europe despite lacking the depth on the bench as rivals Bayern. The ability to not tire easily is vital because it directly improves his players' concentration.

Jurgen Klopp: "Stamina cannot be practiced with the ball but with running, running and running. And the better the stamina, the more players can concentrate on their roles ... at our level you have to be exceptionally trained so that you can stay awake mentally."
 

With respect, that doesn't really tally with with what you have written.

EDIT:

IN the interests of fairness I'll post your previous response to my klopp quote

Klopp is wrong. It's his personal taste, of course, but scientifically he is wrong. The DFB have long relied on physical traits and preparation as a huge part of their coaching methodology. However, they changed that in the early to mid 2000's to reflect the newer approaches using small-sided games to achieve the same effect. Stamina is a function of intensity and duration. It doesn't matter whether you run on hills or whether you play 3v3's. You gain stamina by the intensity, duration, frequency, time and type of exercise (Aerobic vs. Anaerobic). It's easier to do it without the ball because you can manage the work to rest ratios easier, but Klopp is categorically incorrect in saying that you can't develop stamina with the ball. Like Souness before him, he has his preferences, but that statement is so far from the truth it's not even funny. In fact, it has been scientifically proven that the greatest load a player experiences is when they have the ball at their feet. Therefore, working with the ball develops MORE stamina than without, due to the added resistance which creates an overload - one of the principles of fitness training.

Someone needs to email Borussia's opponents to tell them the science isn't working - they look knackered!

[Mr_Shane]

POP I hope you are right that we will peak later in the season, after all we actually finished last season stronger than we started.

I was extremely disappointed with the result and the performance, not necessarily the tactics and the eleven put out. Yes even the four centre backs.... though not satisfactory at all, we were already severely hampered by injuries and fitness issues. We really only have 4 specialist full backs and three of them are out, the last one Rodgers said was not fully fit. We also knew Southampton were going to use the same tactics that were used against us last season with success. The players had problems dealing with it and were giving up the second balls much too easily, and it seemed like they were not really in the game, but until we conceded, I felt it was still possible to grind out a draw or a win despite not playing well, but alas it was not to be.

[PhaseOfPlay]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/craig-bellamy-lifts-lid-life-4041459

“The next day, I met Pako Ayestaran, Rafa’s assistant and the fitness coach. The fitness routines were not that imaginative.
It was army style, really. Long, plodding runs mainly. It was very professional with heart monitors and fitness belts but there was no camaraderie while they took place. It was all double sessions, tactical work, standing in position, walk-throughs of tactical play. Rafa oversaw it all.”



With respect, that doesn't really tally with with what you have written.

I stand corrected on Ayesteran. I have practice plans from the pre-season in 2009 where there was no long runs at all, but that was after Ayesteran left. And perhaps that's one of the reasons why they fell out.

As for your Klopp quote - IIRC he specifically mentions work without a ball, rather than long, steady runs. His stance was that he didn't believe you had to use the ball all the time, and that you have to do fitness work without the ball. That is a different discussion. Our discussion referencing that quote was about Souness using 45 minute duration aerobic runs as opposed to short and sharp reps of higher intensity work, which replicates the game. The two discussions shouldn't be confused. 

[Jizzinho]

/snip/

From what I read of the quote it seemed to imply that Klopp was interested in looking at "total distance run" charts and how to maximise their efficiency. From that I take it that lengthy spells running are an integral part of training - I don't have any further details about Klopp's methods; i'd be interested to see  a link if you have one that might shed some more light on it.

PS regarding the previous conversation about Souness - whether or not Pako and Rafa fell out over those fitness plans, they were definitely working together closely on them before Pako left which shows Souness wasn't as unintelligent as you were implying given he had been using some of the methods 20 years earlier.

[BazC]

Interesting stuff.

By the way, I think Pako and Rafa did have differences of opinion on the fitness across a season, I think Rafa wanted to change it up and be fitter for the first part of the season. And to be fair, that season we did get to 2nd place didn't we? Although we looked like the fittest team in the league at the end of the season, so could be wrong. Or maybe even it was the double peak thing that Barca do, but without the break in games - we actually did have a slower mid-season, and it was then that we had the chance to pull ahead of the Mancs at the top of the table (that was the time when we went top of the table by drawing at West Ham, and the crowd booed- it was an opportunity missed because the Mancs had game/s in hand, and we did need to win that one to put the pressure on them). By the end of the season of course, we went on that run, and even that Arsenal game which was 4-4, we scored goals right at the end of the match to get that point.

But anyway, I think that change up in ideas was why they fell out apparently, I just can't remember where I read that.

[PhaseOfPlay]

From what I read of the quote it seemed to imply that Klopp was interested in looking at "total distance run" charts and how to maximise their efficiency. From that I take it that lengthy spells running are an integral part of training - I don't have any further details about Klopp's methods; i'd be interested to see  a link if you have one that might shed some more light on it.

PS regarding the previous conversation about Souness - whether or not Pako and Rafa fell out over those fitness plans, they were definitely working together closely on them before Pako left which shows Souness wasn't as unintelligent as you were implying given he had been using some of the methods 20 years earlier.

You can watch Dortmund training sessions on Youtube, and some of his sessions at Mainz as well. Nothing on those suggest long, steady-state runs - everything points to lactic interval training.

The one manager you can find who is famous for using long, slow steady runs is Felix Magath. He also had injury lists as long as your arm, in much the same way Souness had.

[steveeastend]

The one manager you can find who is famous for using long, slow steady runs is Felix Magath. He also had injury lists as long as your arm, in much the same way Souness had.

I am not sure on the injury list but what´s true is that Magath squeezed everything out of the players within one or two seasons with the players collapsing more or less after two years under his "regime" and revolting against him.There are stories of players passing out during pre season preperations, one player is quoted that Magaths training sessions would be enough to bring him to court for assault...

[Timbo's Goals]

On Satdee I emerged from the ground as depressed as fuck.

Been ridiculously busy since so only just got the opportunity to watch the thing again this evening in the hope it might give me hope for tonight.

It did.

What the repeat viewing showed me is that huge expectation and massive disappointment at the unfulfillment of such expectation can distort your take on what actually took place. Sure we had a n off day. but we weren't THAT bad and the injection of just one of our best attacking players - Coutinho, Suarez or johnson - would likely have seen a positive outcome.

Conversely, Soton were by no means as good as I left the ground believing. Yes they wee good but owed so much to their centre back who was outstanding.

Anyoad, it cheered me up a bit before the game tonight.