Topic: LFC sign Mamadou Sakho

[Scott0908]

wheres this video?

[Frizzo]

F*ck me. OKay, given that his form is okay then Agger starts. That is the point Paddy. Is that clear?

That's the opposite of the point you seemed to be making at the start.

Then you got very snide.

But yes, your point is clear now, it wasn't at all before.

[rusty-la]

Ok so you've done a u-turn on your point and don't actually disagree with me then. Clear enough.

I had no idea what you are on about, which makes two of us.

Go back and read it again Patrick

[DyingAtheist]

Bearing in mind the age of Toure anyway, after this season I imagine we'll start to see Skrtel - Agger - Sakho as our main CB pairing if we stick with 3 at the back.

[SwedenRed]

Bearing in mind the age of Toure anyway, after this season I imagine we'll start to see Skrtel - Agger - Sakho as our main CB pairing if we stick with 3 at the back.

Age?! If he is playing well, age has nothing to do with it. At the moment Toure is my first choice out of the 4 anyday.

[csgreen]

This just isn't true IMO. We're not robots. There's a human factor that very much plays a part. A striker who hasn't scored in awhile...doubt may creep in, anxiety building.  It can play on a strikers mind, they get down on themselves and without a doubt I think it can impacting a players game. Likewise if Aspas was on fire and lost his place when form didn't warrant it, that very easily could make him disenchanted. When that happens potentially he might put less in a training, be playing angry, or worse act jaded effecting the whole team.

I agree Suarez comes straight in, he's a world class talent but it's not all simple probability. There's a human factor that has to be considered. Reward and recognition, confidence, stress,  all impact a player.

There's this thing called FORM that allows an average player, or even a poor player, to be better on the pitch than a good player, or even a great player.

Been away from the thread for a bit, but thought I'd reply to these to because I think it's important.  "Form" is definitely something that many people think exists.  And I can see how it would make some amount of intuitive sense (confidence, etc, etc).  However, when statisticians have sat down and tried to find evidence for "form," as far as I know they have never found any evidence that "form" actually exists (e.g. you can ask, "if a player scored in the last game are they more or less likely to score in the next?", or "if they scored in the last two games?", or "not at all over the past five games?" - controlling for their base scoring rate of course - but there's just nothing there).  If there is evidence out there I'd love if someone would point me toward it... 

In general though the belief that there are temporal dependencies in the world is a fallacy that you see all over the place.  People in casinos think they can be on a run of "good luck".  If you flip a coin three times in a row and you get heads all three times, you'll get a decent percentage of people who think that the next flip is more likely to be heads than tails because the coin is on a "run of heads" (funnily enough you'll also get people who make the opposite mistake and think that the next flip is more likely to be tails because "we're due for a tails").  Frick - check the old Stewart Downing thread.  After two good games in a row you'll see two pages of posters saying that he finally "found a run of good form" (when instead instead it's just the case that sometimes you roll back-to-back hard sixes). 

Until I see honest to goodness evidence showing that form is a thing, and not just a consequence of the human brain's tendency to see structure in the world even when there is none, then I'm going to call making decisions based upon "form" irrational. 

I should note though - because a previous poster elegantly put up this exact strawman argument and then tore it down - that this doesn't mean that there has to be a stable pecking order where you trot out the exact same players every single game.  Players can be fatigued, they can be injured, they can match up poorly with opposition.  Using any of these sources of information to make decisions is totally rational because there is a proven mechanism linking a cause with an effect...       

[Dirk Advocate.]

I'd imagine BR will go with Sakho and Toure at centre back once Johnson returns from injury. Agger and Skrtel are both quality defenders but they're also a bit too passive. Pairing Sakho and Toure will enable us to play a high line. We saw that against Southampton in the 2nd half when Sakho moved into the middle. He and Kolo were practically on the halfway line. Agger's loyalty in the face of interest from Barca is to be respected, but it doesn't guarantee him a place in the side.

Bar the first half against Swansea, which was his first game since May, I think Sakho's been a joy to watch so far. He may have a slightly ungainly style but his passing is sublime.

[plskikme]

I should note though - because a previous poster elegantly put up this exact strawman argument and then tore it down - that this doesn't mean that there has to be a stable pecking order where you trot out the exact same players every single game.  Players can be fatigued, they can be injured, they can match up poorly with opposition.  Using any of these sources of information to make decisions is totally rational because there is a proven mechanism linking a cause with an effect...       

I don't mean this in a confrontational way but it doesn't matter if you don't believe it as long as the player "on/in form" believes it. Confidence, whether under the placebo effect or not, becomes the cause of increased likelihood of scoring or performing well again.

[LoubySoho]

I still think that it will be Agger Sakho in the middle 2 if it goes back to that. If BR wanted to replace Agger then he could have been sold in the summer and pretty much have paid for Sakho, I think he was bought to play along side Agger

[shanks_legend]

This guy is going to be immense. Hes still feeling his way in the league and team, but you can see the promise. Quick, fearless, strong in the tackle and uses the ball very well.

[Frizzo]

I don't mean this in a confrontational way but it doesn't matter if you don't believe it as long as the player "on/in form" believes it. Confidence, whether under the placebo effect or not, becomes the cause of increased likelihood of scoring or performing well again.

This is the exact point he's making thought isn't it?

That this perceived "form", due to a players "confidence" is all just something we as observers have
constructed that doesn't necessarily exist.

It's not down to his bad run of "form" that Fernando Torres isn't scoring as much as he used to for example, he's just physically not as good a player as he used to be. But people will say as soon as he scores in back to back games that he's on a run of "form" and will be more likely to score because now he's confident again. Which there's no scientific evidence for. We just have faith in the theory because it makes sense.

[Frizzo]

I still think that it will be Agger Sakho in the middle 2 if it goes back to that. If BR wanted to replace Agger then he could have been sold in the summer and pretty much have paid for Sakho, I think he was bought to play along side Agger

I think he was bought to partner Agger as well. However if Rodgers has decided that, having seen them all together in games and training, that Toure is the better player right now, then I think we'll see Toure/Sakho more often.

No one expected Toure to be as immense as he has been this season.

[Xanderzone]

Since Sami left, we lacked a powerful centre-back who can rise above players and head the ball clear. Kyrgiakos did it to a degree but was only a short term solution, Coates was signed to be that man but didn't prove up to it, but I think with Sakho we finally have that aerial strength we've been lacking since Sami left. That was the pitch problem with the Skrtel-Agger partnership. Both very good defenders but mostly on the deck. Put someone big and powerful up against them and they often struggled. I think with Sakho in our defence it's going to be our defender doing the bullying.

Monumental signing, in my opinion.

[keyo]

But you're essentially saying that form doesn't matter except when it does. You can't have it both ways mate.

Agger has given away a really silly penalty this season, and he has continued his poor marking from corners. The 3 playing now have done nothing to be dropped, so it's upto Agger to impress when he nexts gets the chance. He shouldn't just be handed a place because of his name, regardless of form.

For me the players who are performing the best deserve to play. And right now Sakho has no issues on that front.

whilst i agree with the sentiment, we also know that over the course of a season players are rotated, even the centre back partnership which tends to be the most stable of the positions...this season maybe less so, due to the lack of european football......this always gives opportunities to players...in addition, managers have their own thoughts and preferences and take what they want from training etc.....so whilst we go on form (from what we see at least) managers do not necessarily......a vision in their head may be what they want, so if agger is the preferred choice rodgers will find a way for him to be in the side

whilst a player may do nothing wrong and do what it appears is a very good job, that is not necessarily the only criteria a manager uses for picking a side.....and that is the risk attached to changing a 'winning team'....rodgers will pick his team based on what the players bring and what he is looking for....agger brings ability to play out and a higher line with the right partner, amongst other things.....maybe they are the things that rodgers will seek and use to bring agger in...maybe not...

[SMacDougall]

Having read through the above discussion, I personally agree with the posters saying that Kolo Toure should be starting.

For me, Toure is the first name on the teamsheet in defence. If we're playing 3 at the back, I'd go with Agger, Toure and Sakho.

Yes, Agger has made a couple of mistakes recently and has been quite poor in terms of marking players on set pieces, but Skrtel isn't some kind of unmoveable force just because he's had a couple of good games (it helps him hugely to have the likes of Sakho and Toure to back him up)

Let's not forget his performance against City last season where he gifted the ball to Tevez and his many other poor games.

Best back three, in my eyes, is Agger, Toure and Sakho.

If we're playing 2 at the back, I'd be playing Toure and Sakho.

However, that is unlikely, what with Agger being vice-captain and all.

We should all just be really grateful that from now on, when Agger gets his inevitable injuries, we're pretty much covered with equal quality and don't suddenly look really weak at the back.

[SlowRap]

Indeed it's a very healthy situation we have at the back, now we need to build the same competition in the midfield and to a lesser extent the forwards and competition for Mignolet.

[Durlmints]

This is the exact point he's making thought isn't it?

That this perceived "form", due to a players "confidence" is all just something we as observers have
constructed that doesn't necessarily exist.

It's not down to his bad run of "form" that Fernando Torres isn't scoring as much as he used to for example, he's just physically not as good a player as he used to be. But people will say as soon as he scores in back to back games that he's on a run of "form" and will be more likely to score because now he's confident again. Which there's no scientific evidence for. We just have faith in the theory because it makes sense.

I think you're underestimating how big of a role psychology plays in sporting ability.

I remember when I was having a particularly hard year in College, my ability as a goalkeeper was terrible. I couldn't save some easy shots, I fumbled a lot of things, and generally I couldn't buy a save if I wanted to. I was then quite understandably, dropped to the bench.

During the summer at the end of that year, when the exams were over and my head was sorted out, I was a completely different player. Absolutely nothing got by me, and nearly every game we were getting clean sheets when I played.

Since moving outfield (and dropping down a few levels) I can say I've had similar experiences playing as a forward too.

[Something Awful]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSKWCqEBd0w&feature=youtu.be

Seems like a funny guy

[Frizzo]

I think you're underestimating how big of a role psychology plays in sporting ability.

I remember when I was having a particularly hard year in College, my ability as a goalkeeper was terrible. I couldn't save some easy shots, I fumbled a lot of things, and generally I couldn't buy a save if I wanted to. I was then quite understandably, dropped to the bench.

During the summer at the end of that year, when the exams were over and my head was sorted out, I was a completely different player. Absolutely nothing got by me, and nearly every game we were getting clean sheets when I played.

Since moving outfield (and dropping down a few levels) I can say I've had similar experiences playing as a forward too.

I'm not necessarily saying I totally agree with the poster I quoted. I do to some extent but I'm also playing a little devils advocate.

However, most of the evidence used to back up "form swings" is anecdotal, such as yours above. The difficulty with football is that it's a lot harder than say baseball or basketball in evaluating a performance with stats. So finding solid evidence one way or the other is difficult.

It's also possible that your poor goal-keeping run just coincided with your hard year (regardless of what you might think), because - as previously mentioned - we as a species are hard-wired to look for patterns when they're not there. And just by the laws of probability you're bound to have a bad run at some point.

[Pinky_Bieber]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSKWCqEBd0w&feature=youtu.be

Seems like a funny guy

finally a new upload from them...lazy arses

[outlaw_nas]

finally a new upload from them...lazy arses

Haha class

[IndianRed]

Sakho vs Australia

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/yKYdgpKPp0A" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/yKYdgpKPp0A</a>

His composure on the ball is outstanding in this video. He has his head up on the ball every time looking for the forward pass along the channel instead of taking the easier option and passing it backwards. No wonder Brendan likes him so much. Him and Toure would be my first choice starters if we switch back to a 4 man defense once Johnson is back.

[vagabond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSKWCqEBd0w&feature=youtu.be

Seems like a funny guy

[Frizzo]

His composure on the ball is outstanding in this video. He has his head up on the ball every time looking for the forward pass along the channel instead of taking the easier option and passing it backwards. No wonder Brendan likes him so much. Him and Toure would be my first choice starters if we switch back to a 4 man defense once Johnson is back.

I love how every touch it seems like he's saying "I need to prove myself, watch this!!", and he literally nails every pass. Lovely to watch.

[Zeb]

Complete package. Strong, fast, good in the air, good passer.

What´s impressed me the most is his calmness on the ball. Plays in into the feet of midfielders even under pressure.

He's adapting quickly. Really think he's got everything that we need, and then some more. Looking forward to watching him develop even more after seeing him start like this.

[Hank Scorpio]

His composure on the ball is outstanding in this video. He has his head up on the ball every time looking for the forward pass along the channel instead of taking the easier option and passing it backwards. No wonder Brendan likes him so much. Him and Toure would be my first choice starters if we switch back to a 4 man defense once Johnson is back.

Most def (I talk like this now after watching the first season of The Wire).

I'm actually surprised at how good he is on the ball.  Not afraid to play the difficult pass because he i) trusts himself ii) trusts his team mate & iii) makes himself instantly available to the receiver.

Takes the sting out the ball really well too which means attacks can be started pretty soon after recovering the ball.

[El_Pelusa_10]

Most def (I talk like this now after watching the first season of The Wire).

I'm actually surprised at how good he is on the ball.  Not afraid to play the difficult pass because he i) trusts himself ii) trusts his team mate & iii) makes himself instantly available to the receiver.

Takes the sting out the ball really well too which means attacks can be started pretty soon after recovering the ball.

Happens to the best of us!

[AshbourneRed]

Most def (I talk like this now after watching the first season of The Wire).

I found myself saying Yo and Bitch! a lot after watching Breaking Bad. Easily happens Must start watching The Wire now.

On topic, Mamadou is Boss! Love how he's not afraid to play the difficult pass. Fantastic signing for us. Can't wait til he gets his first goal for us.

[mallin9]

Most def (I talk like this now after watching the first season of The Wire).

Congrats on starting the greatest TV show ever produced.  The Wire will change your life.

Sakho has such solid reactions coupled with great vision, was at the Palace match and he made a few reads/passes that were fun to watch.  Top drawer.  Sakho, French God of Power Heading.  He's the best aerial defender we've had since Sami.  Have I mentioned I like Sakho?

[Cid]

That's what it means to take your chance, Skrtel waited; Kolo was injured for the ManU game and Skrtel took his chance. Agger got injured and Sakho took his chance. Now Agger has to wait for his chance to reclaim his place in the team.

I consider that strength in depth.  Agger is better than Skrtel and should get back into the side.

[Nessy76]

Congrats on starting the greatest TV show ever produced.  The Wire will change your life.

Tru dat.

[RideTheWalrus]

Bit at fault for their second, but Cissokho's more to blame.

coming into his own more now after his shaky start, he's going to be a good player for us.

[buzzing]

the side of his game that worries me is that he comes out too quickly to get the ball and can mistime leaving us exposed

[elsewhere]

Poor positioning in 2nd but he is still so young and learn a lot this year

[jake11]

Just wanted to bump this guy up on to page 1.

I think he is the signing of the summer.

Okay, at set pieces today we were a bit Keystone Cops (they always got their man ), but in open play we were ultra solid. Skrtel was outstanding, Toure was his usual self and Sakho, well, he is just a pleasure to watch.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Just wanted to bump this guy up on to page 1.

I think he is the signing of the summer.

Okay, at set pieces today we were a bit Keystone Cops (they always got their man ), but in open play we were ultra solid. Skrtel was outstanding, Toure was his usual self and Sakho, well, he is just a pleasure to watch.

Really hard to decide between Mignolet, Toure or Sahko for best signing. All improved us this season though.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

Very well played today. I like that he's always looking for a deep pass, moving up play. He misplaced just one of those  today, and was still solid in defensive headers.

[cptrios]

Really hard to decide between Mignolet, Toure or Sahko for best signing. All improved us this season though.

It really was a great window, despite the early rough times for Aspas. The best thing about it? The real best signing of the summer might eventually turn out to be someone you didn't even mention there. I've got some seriously high hopes for Alberto and Chirivella.

Sakho, though - I'm still kind of surprised that we got him, and I'm thrilled that he's turned out will so far. The fact that he isn't playing as well as he could be yet and is still kicking ass is just excellent.

[Harris96]

like how he likes to play it out of defense, although it did nearly cost him when he couldnt find a pass, so dirbbled with it, nearly lost it ans had to make a crunching tackle to get it back 

[BazC]

like how he likes to play it out of defense, although it did nearly cost him when he couldnt find a pass, so dirbbled with it, nearly lost it ans had to make a crunching tackle to get it back 

He did it on purpose, I think he was getting a bit bored - which he does if he's not had the opportunity to crunch into someone for a few mins - and he just decides to show the West Brom player enough of the ball and goes steaming in. If he was a matador, he wouldn't move out the way of the bull, he'd just slide tackle it one.