Author Topic: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review  (Read 48584 times)

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2013, 02:36:01 PM »
Love all the passages where Shankly and Matt Busby have their chats, the one after we beat United on the way to the title is just brilliant.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline macca888

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2013, 02:45:43 PM »
:wellin Outstanding review Michael. Absolutely outstanding. Michael. Outstanding from start. Outstanding to the finish.
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Offline shanklylass

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2013, 02:59:07 PM »
DJ Taylor massacred this book in the Independent yesterday.

Saying it was too highbrow for football fans, and highbrow readers would ignore it as it's about football. Also said girls wouldn't be interested which I thought was a load of bollocks judging by posters on here.

So full of shit I feel like complaining.

Have a gander:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/book-review-red-or-dead-by-david-peace-8755012.html

Sounds like a right prick to me.

And a patronising twonk at that. His opinion of football and supporters sound positively archaic. Ironic that he can comment on a book about one of the games true visionaries by showing a complete lack of it himself.


Offline kennedy81

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2013, 03:40:30 PM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pnrdSDx59Ik?fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/pnrdSDx59Ik?fs=1</a>

Offline Filler.

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2013, 09:52:20 PM »
I'm on page 120 or something, but I get genuinely pissed off when we lose. Head in hands stuff. Not pissed off, but I'm in pain. There was a page turner on page 99, where you find out the result in the first line on page 100 and it went the other way, and I was reading it in a break at work and a workmate clocked my face and asked 'what's up?' - laughing a bit - and I got so much joy in telling him with my most serious face on, that we'd just lost a crucial game in 1962. I did the whole Sky thing. Painted the scene as if it was yesterday - he switched off early.

Offline rusty-la

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #85 on: August 19, 2013, 10:12:55 PM »
Superb review, thanks Michael.

Offline Rider

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2013, 04:15:42 AM »
Anyone been listening to this on Radio 4 Book at Bedtime? And if so has anyone got part 1 saved as I missed it and it's no longer on iPlayer?

Thanks in advance

Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2013, 07:15:45 AM »
Only had chance to read reviews so far and only conclusion drawn is, it is obviously going to be a 'Marmite' book. You will either love it or hate it.
I think the author is trying to instill in the reader Bill's repetative method of bringing a 'Janet and Jim' method to training and playing the simple game.
Bill was known for repeating the simple message.
Bill was known for bringing to the club a consistancy through repeated process.
While reading the repetative parts think of 'The sweat box' Bill brought to the training ground. Think also of the way we played the game, pass and move, pass and move, pass and move.
Fans who witnessed 'The Liverpool Way' will all testify, when Lawrence got the ball he rolled it to Lawler, Lawler usually played across to Byrne until one of our fullbacks could find an open half back. If no half back was free it would cross back to Lawler. It was repetative. It was our method not to give the ball away. Repetative it might have been, SUCCESSFUL IT WAS.
We played like automons. I think this is what the author is trying to do, he continually repeats the message until it sinks in. Much the same as what Bill did both on the training ground and on the pitch.

It might be a hard read, but perserverance will bring satisfaction and success much like it did in the club.
I will be sorting a copy out this week. I will suffer any hardship to complete because it is about a man I love. As for reading other books by the author of similar ilk, fuckin forget it ! Unless of course he does Margaret Thatchers Biog, that I might read..........
Margaret was a bitch, Margaret was a bad bitch, Margaret was a bad bitch that tried to bring my City to its knees, Margaret was a bad bitch that tried to bring my City to its knees AND FAILED !



ps. thanks for the reference made in the book, even though you didn't ask  ;D
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 07:21:30 AM by WOOLTONIAN »
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2013, 07:37:24 AM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pnrdSDx59Ik?fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/pnrdSDx59Ik?fs=1</a>
Thanks for this.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline KillieRed

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #89 on: August 20, 2013, 09:05:56 AM »

One hundred pages in. The writing style is quite...hypnotic. I find myself scanning and missing gems of information.

I think the repetition is successful though, it`s like drills in football training, going over and over things to drum them into you.

Reading it very much reminds me of those season review football annuals with brief match reports, scorers, attendances, players in and out etc. I`m pretty sure i read one Kenny put his name to in the eighties.

I am really enjoying it, and you can tell David Peace agrees with Shanks and Clough that football directors are only there to sign the cheques  ;)
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Offline MichaelA

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2013, 10:17:13 PM »




I've been a complete fanboy over the last week. More to follow when I get a minute.  :wave

Offline kennedy81

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #91 on: August 21, 2013, 07:09:22 PM »
Anyone been listening to this on Radio 4 Book at Bedtime? And if so has anyone got part 1 saved as I missed it and it's no longer on iPlayer?

Thanks in advance
I have it mate, PM'd you.

does anyone have part 2 recorded by any chance?
I missed that one.


Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #92 on: August 21, 2013, 08:13:53 PM »
Loved the bit when Shankly calls up Don Revie before the Boxing Day game to wish him a happy Christmas.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline kennedy81

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #93 on: August 21, 2013, 10:11:39 PM »
Loved the bit when Shankly calls up Don Revie before the Boxing Day game to wish him a happy Christmas.
haha yeah that was great.

"well, goodnight then Don, sleep well"

 ;D

Offline Xabidodger

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2013, 12:27:32 AM »
Went to the London book reading tonight. A mixed crowd of booky types, there was a table of attractive girls that worked for publishing houses talking about who followed Shanks, reds and Peace fans. Interesting some of the points on the repetition, he said that he wanted to get the everyday mundane nature of Shanks training with the team rather than just a line.. he trained with the team for 15 years. Peace spoke with love for the charcacter of Bill and with warmth. Made an interesting point at the end about Hillsborough. I even asked a question about if he would write a book on Boycott. He liked my joke about the repetion of dot ball. Bot ball. Etc...

Got my book signed and what a book. If anyone who reads this wants to read more by Peace, I strongly urge you to read GB84 his occult history of the miners strike. Cole not dole.
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Offline Arcadian

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2013, 06:19:10 AM »


I fully understand his principle but that style... It's REALLY making me hesitant to dive in. Thoughts?

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Offline rob1408

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2013, 06:25:13 AM »

I fully understand his principle but that style... It's REALLY making me hesitant to dive in. Thoughts?

After reading a couple paragraphs online, I had my doubts but I bought the book anyway.  At first it's all a bit odd, bordering on annoying, but after a while it becomes strangely hypnotic.

Offline Arcadian

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2013, 06:32:46 AM »
After reading a couple paragraphs online, I had my doubts but I bought the book anyway.  At first it's all a bit odd, bordering on annoying, but after a while it becomes strangely hypnotic.

That's what I'm hearing. Ta mate.

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Offline koppitekop11

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2013, 07:06:14 AM »
Half way through this at the moment. Highlight so far has to be Bill and Bobs act of genius with boot polish, iodine and St Johns testicles!! :lmao
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2013, 07:11:04 AM »

I fully understand his principle but that style... It's REALLY making me hesitant to dive in. Thoughts?



Stop fucking dilly dallying and read it.
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Offline KillieRed

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2013, 08:52:55 AM »
Loved the bit when Shankly calls up Don Revie before the Boxing Day game to wish him a happy Christmas.

Yes.

"Just to set Don`s mind at rest, he`ll be worrying about the game"  ;)
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Offline edeyj

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2013, 09:05:30 AM »
Must get this book.

I have been listening to the Book at Bedtime on R4 and it's totally addictive.

Just listened to episode 8 on the iPlayer and had a tear in my eye at the bit where John Smith has to tell Bill that he can only train in the afternoon when the players have left. It had to be done but it's hard to take that a man who transformed LFC and built the club up to the giant it was at that time had to be nicely "put in his place". So sad.

I don't know what it is with the presentation on the radio show but the image I get of Bill is one of loneliness. Is it the music they use or the reader's voice or the actual text? I don't know. But it does leave a little bit of a hollow feeling.

Bill was the manager when I was a lad and really it was Bob that was the main man for me. But without Bill the club would not be what it is today. Great, great man. Doubt there will ever be another like him.

Offline MichaelA

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2013, 12:38:12 PM »

I have been listening to the Book at Bedtime on R4 and it's totally addictive.


It's fab. Confusingly, but probably accurately, the Book at Bedtime is being discussed here. :wave

Offline Cracking Left Foot

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2013, 02:30:13 PM »
I'm halfway through now, and completely addicted. I can understand why some find Peace's style an acquired taste but after a few pages you really get into it (a bit like Irvine Welsh's habit of writing using a Scottish dialect).

As said above, I loved the relationship between Busby and Shankly. It really conveys their friendship beautifully. And I love the way that Bill's forever scrubbing the oven clean whenever we lose. It's also clever the way Peace gradually and subtly foreshadows the changes that would hit football, most explicitly, the hooliganism - the odd mention of bottles being thrown and so on.

I also found the section about Jimmy McInnes very moving, and ended up reading up about him afterwards as, much to my shame, I didn't know that much about him. What a heartbreaking story.

Will probably pop back into this thread once I've finished the book.

Offline finchy1972

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #104 on: August 22, 2013, 05:28:08 PM »
Just bought this but was a little hesitant about the style of writing , but having got through the first few chapters I'm hooked , so to anyone that is in the same boat as I was buy it because you really won't regret it .
Whatever we are , we are , whatever we will be is yet to be written .

Offline thew

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2013, 05:53:20 PM »
fantastic review - thank you. bought the book, and compulsively read it over the weekend... very moving.. although I did want him to mix up the breakfast routine. Just once!

Offline saoirse08

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2013, 07:43:25 PM »
330 pages in and it's an absolute masterpiece. He even paraphrases the great Italian Marxist, Antonio Gramsci, on page 317: "The old were dying and the new could not be born."
A reference to the numbing defeat at Watford in 1970, the moment Shankly knew he had to break up and remake the team. The revolution started in the early 1960s was over. St John, Yeats etc were finished.
Like all great revolutionaries in their field, Shankly remade the team, brought in youth, formed new ways of playing. I'm hoping the old is dying and the new cannot be born will be a metaphor for the club's current rocky transformation.

And only David Peace can take the seemingly dry and long-forgotten football statistic and transform it into poetry. As another great man said: Football is the ballet of the masses.

By the way that DJ Taylor review is possibly the most snobby and elitist shite I've had the misfortune to read in a long time. Fuck off back to the 19th century you bourgeois, metropolitan bell end.
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Offline The 92A

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #107 on: August 22, 2013, 08:50:57 PM »
He's not even a proper DJ. Laughed my way through his review, exposed his prejudice and ignorance more than anything else. Not worth another word. Prick. ;)  You really get into the rhythm of Peace to the point that you start copying in your speech and it can bring a few funny looks specially off my kids.
Two minuscule criticisms of detail. It may be 'the' Aldi but it's never 'the' West Derby Road and that Jimmy Hill linesman episode, I was at that match at Anfield rather than an away but that's being churlish a magnificent feat from Peace and more importantly Peace's understanding of what Shankly represented in terms of football and life can't be faulted. It may be a novel but I believed every word.  Authority and authenticity are far more important than anything else in a novel like this and Peace gets it.
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Offline MichaelA

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2013, 09:40:05 PM »
I have an overwhelming sense of relief that I got the tone of my review right...I adored every single moment of it.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #109 on: August 22, 2013, 11:04:06 PM »
Two minuscule criticisms of detail. It may be 'the' Aldi but it's never 'the' West Derby Road and that Jimmy Hill linesman episode, I was at that match at Anfield rather than an away but that's being churlish a magnificent feat from Peace and more importantly Peace's understanding of what Shankly represented in terms of football and life can't be faulted. It may be a novel but I believed every word.  Authority and authenticity are far more important than anything else in a novel like this and Peace gets it.

May be it happened twice? Jimmy Hill definitely ran the line at Highbury.
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Offline John C

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #110 on: August 22, 2013, 11:45:39 PM »
Authority and authenticity are far more important than anything else in a novel like this and Peace gets it.
Lovely description mate, lovely.

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #111 on: August 23, 2013, 12:26:35 AM »
Loved this bit (might be an idea to start a thread of our favourite passages):

"I am not playing with words when I say Liverpool Football Club have the most loyal supporters in the world. That is my challenge, to look after them. Because if the supporters of Liverpool Football Club are happy, then the players of Liverpool Football are happy, and if the players are happy, then the the club is successful. That is the only sort of dividend I seek for my labours. That is the only reward I want. To make the supporters happy, to make the people happy."
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline The 92A

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #112 on: August 23, 2013, 12:44:31 AM »
May be it happened twice? Jimmy Hill definitely ran the line at Highbury.
If it happened at Highbury then you are right Yorkie, I wondered if it might have happened twice but discounted it as being too much of a coincidence. I was at a match at Anfield when Hill ran the line on the Main Stand side after linesman was injured
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Offline Sangria

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #113 on: August 23, 2013, 01:28:46 PM »
Joy of Six: Sporting Flukes

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/aug/23/the-joy-of-six-flukes

"Unfortunately for Liverpool, captain Ron Yeats was tracking back with a view to heading off the line if required. When Libuda's shot rebounded off the woodwork, it flew into the small of the helpless Yeats's back, and ricocheted into the net, soon to be followed by the crumbling frame of the upset defender. The flukiest goal to win any European final, Nayim included, and one which meant Liverpool were destined never to complete the slam of all three continental trophies. The result left Bill Shankly fuming, condemned to a seven-year wait before finally getting his hands on a European pot. Bill went off into the night. The wind and the rain. Bill went home. Bill cleaned the cooker."
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Offline Filler.

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #114 on: August 24, 2013, 11:12:07 AM »
Good review here... http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/aug/23/bill-shankly-red-or-dead-liverpool


Being a Fall fan, (and a Can fan - and here, Jaki Liebezeit's story comes into it - a highly regarded jazz drummer, with an armoury of technical flourishes, gets turned on with the idea of simplicity and repetition - as an idea), Richard Williams mentions in his piece the line... 'As the chapters go by, he builds a relentless momentum: match to match, season to season, every one different, every one the same', which echoes John Peels famous reflection of the Fall... that every album is always the same, always different.


Am on page 260 ish... loving it. Shanks showing Ray Clemence the toilets, and how we had the greatest toilets in the country as it filled up in 15 seconds particularly tickled me ;D

Offline kriss

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #115 on: August 24, 2013, 11:27:49 AM »

I also found the section about Jimmy McInnes very moving, and ended up reading up about him afterwards as, much to my shame, I didn't know that much about him. What a heartbreaking story.


I've always known it happened (the way Jimmy McInnes died) but not what led up to it. As you said, this was a very sad and tragic incident and I thought that David covered it in exactly the right way.

A player from the time recently told me that he was working on the pitch and saw Jimmy walk across a corner of it and climb the Kop. But he never came back :(.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 11:43:31 AM by kriss »

Offline dh07kop

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #116 on: August 24, 2013, 11:35:52 AM »
Where can you buy this book? (not online).. I live in the old swan area..
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Offline KillieRed

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #117 on: August 24, 2013, 11:51:26 AM »

Another favourite part: where Clough starts talking, and talking, but Bill has stopped listening.

Matt Busby seems to deserve the title "Sir", but Don Revie comes across as bitter and churlish.
"Nobody knows anything..." William Goldman.

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Offline Trada

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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #118 on: August 25, 2013, 10:44:50 AM »
Just got a free copy of the Ebook when I downloaded Nook for my Android phone.

http://www.hotukdeals.com/freebies/free-ebooks-magazines-when-download-nook-mobile-app-1639414
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Re: #SHANKLY100 - David Peace: 'Red or Dead' - The RAWK Review
« Reply #119 on: August 25, 2013, 10:49:51 AM »
"An attack on his very manhood. An assault on his unborn children."  Shanks to the Disciplinary Panel, defending Ian St John after he felled a Coventry City player. Bob Paisley smeared St John's 'goolies' with boot polish and iodine the previous day, and Shanks had journo's and photographers document them. His ban was halved.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.