Author Topic: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.  (Read 322307 times)

Online WhereAngelsPlay

  • Rockwool Marketing Board Spokesman. Cracker Wanker.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,418
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5680 on: September 13, 2019, 05:55:09 PM »
Because it's insulting.



I bet you take offense at every opportunity,no matter the subject. 


I had no idea that they were originally loosely based on Dr.King and Malcolm X.  :thumbup
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Online WhereAngelsPlay

  • Rockwool Marketing Board Spokesman. Cracker Wanker.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,418
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5681 on: September 13, 2019, 05:58:45 PM »
This crap has been going round and round for so long now. My view has generally been that unless a characters race is completely tied to their identity (Luke Cage, Kamala Khan), then it doesnt really matter if you change it.

With Magneto, that story has been covered over what, nine films now in recent memory? Is there any value in doing it again with the exact same beats? You could just not use him, sure, or you could take the interesting aspects of his character, oppression of a group of people, revenge, the questionable methods, the paranoia that it will happen again etc, and tell a new story with it in a more modern setting. I'd be fine with it, sounds interesting. You could make a new character with a new name, but isnt that kind of what you'd be doing anyway? All they would be borrowing is the mutant moniker Magneto, and the powers. Same as they do with MJ in the Spider-Man films, shes completely different to comic MJ in personality, looks, background, her initials are just "MJ". Also she rules, as does Marissa Tomei as Aunt May, so I'm completely on board for this kinda thing.

Having to do everything the same as the comic is boring, its OK to shake things up when a character and story was first conceived decades ago in a completely different cultural environment.


The same people would be just as outraged and use the exact same arguments against it.
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,568
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5682 on: September 13, 2019, 07:29:53 PM »
It also completely fails to recognise that one of the main reasons they changed things for this current Spider-Man series is because we've seen the traditional versions on screen - the first Tobey Maguire film is only 17 years old! Since 2002, we've had three films in that series plus another two starring Andrew Garfield. So understandably, they decided to change things with this series - knowing fine well that there'll be a new version in a few years which will have its own take on the source material.
I agree, it is stale. To be honest, I'd have been happier with Miles Morales as the MCU Spider-Man, considering the series is loosely based on the Ultimate Marvel universe anyway (Nick Fury obviously, and the cinema Thor is closer too). As long as it was an accuarate representation of the character.
I also just don't get the Aunt May complaints. I'm no expert on the comics, but I presume her defining character trait isn't being old with white hair. And Marisa Tomei would have been 50 when she made her Marvel debut, so let's not pretend it's crazy to think she might have a 15 year old nephew.
Her defining character traits are her kindness and vulnerability. Parker can't let her or the world find out his secret identity because he's terrified she'll disapprove of him and fall into serious ill health. Same with Jameson - he villainises Spider-Man but gave Peter his break as a photographer, so there's also that gratitude in the background. It's a three-dimensional relationship. I said it in a longer post a while back but it's that tension that makes the character is so rich, like the fact his jock peers think Peter's a pathetic nerd but Spider-Man is cool. It can still function as a generic superhero film without those elements, without May's frailty and vulnerability, but it feels flatter and more generic.

I bet you take offense at every opportunity,no matter the subject. 

Offline Nessy76

  • Shits alone and doesn't condone public self-molestation. Literally Goldenballs' biggest fan
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,918
  • We All Live In A Red And White Klopp
    • Andrew Ness Photographer
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5683 on: Yesterday at 12:02:55 AM »
Magneto isn't American, he's an immigrant whose name is Eisenhardt.

That's a retcon. His original name was Magnus. Then it was Lehnsherr when Chris Claremont decided to make him an Auschwitz survivor, almost twenty years after the character first appeared.

But that would make him a gypsy and Marvel preferred the idea he was Jewish, so they turned him Jewish. "Eisenhardt" has been his surname since, what, 2008? (Until they decide to change it again.)

So yeah, good example.
Fuck the Daily Mail.
Abolish FIFA
www.twitter.com/AndrewNessy

Online WhereAngelsPlay

  • Rockwool Marketing Board Spokesman. Cracker Wanker.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,418
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5684 on: Yesterday at 12:11:02 AM »
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,568
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5685 on: Yesterday at 01:03:24 AM »
That's a retcon. His original name was Magnus. Then it was Lehnsherr when Chris Claremont decided to make him an Auschwitz survivor, almost twenty years after the character first appeared.

But that would make him a gypsy and Marvel preferred the idea he was Jewish, so they turned him Jewish. "Eisenhardt" has been his surname since, what, 2008? (Until they decide to change it again.)

So yeah, good example.
Magneto being a Holocaust survivor and Jewish immigrant is nearly 40 years old, ie. two-thirds of the character's existence. It's canon, so yeah it is a good example. Lehnsherr, Eisenhardt - he's still a Jewish, Eastern European immigrant, and that was something that was added rather than changed. The idea he was ever intended to be one of the Roma is simply false, it was actually something that Marvel dropped on the character without creator permission and relatively quickly went back on.

But my position, as it was from the first post, was that I'd rather see existing characters be promoted or new ones created than changing existing characters' ethnicity. That goes for Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One every bit as much as for an explicity non-Jewish Magneto. These characters have a 50-year long visual trail, if you genuinely want to shake things up then actually do it and go for something genuinely fresh rather than reusing the same characters ad nauseum.

Online Brian Blessed

  • Gordon's ALIVE? Practically Bear Grylls. Backwards Bluesman Bastard.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,626
  • Super Title: Feedback Tourist #4
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5686 on: Yesterday at 01:56:37 AM »
Agreed. Magneto being about 95 when the X-Men show up in the MCU is far preferable to having the disgusting idea of changing his skin tone.

But if they must...2/3rds of his existence is canon, so if they do "black face" him around 2025, at least that will become canon in 70 years from now. Assuming these numbers hold.

Thank goodness the vast majority of famous comic book characters were created by white men in the early to mid 20th century. Otherwise we'd have to worry about diversity, and being in the 21st century, and learning from the past. Fuck that.

It's also perfectly reasonable that Peter Parker has a 75 year old aunt. We'll square it aware as his grandad was one of those weird fuckers that had a daughter with a wife around his age, pissed off and then had another kid with a woman 30 years younger. And then the two half sisters became close. It happens.

OR. we can say the films are adaptions.

The best way to rally against these egregious changes is to vote with your wallet and your mouth.  Don't pay to see the films, don't talk about them.

Offline Nessy76

  • Shits alone and doesn't condone public self-molestation. Literally Goldenballs' biggest fan
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,918
  • We All Live In A Red And White Klopp
    • Andrew Ness Photographer
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5687 on: Yesterday at 02:27:52 AM »
Magneto being a Holocaust survivor and Jewish immigrant is nearly 40 years old, ie. two-thirds of the character's existence. It's canon, so yeah it is a good example. Lehnsherr, Eisenhardt - he's still a Jewish, Eastern European immigrant, and that was something that was added rather than changed. The idea he was ever intended to be one of the Roma is simply false, it was actually something that Marvel dropped on the character without creator permission and relatively quickly went back on.

But my position, as it was from the first post, was that I'd rather see existing characters be promoted or new ones created than changing existing characters' ethnicity. That goes for Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One every bit as much as for an explicity non-Jewish Magneto. These characters have a 50-year long visual trail, if you genuinely want to shake things up then actually do it and go for something genuinely fresh rather than reusing the same characters ad nauseum.

"Creator permission" is a tricky concept when you are talking about a character created as "work for hire" by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, who has always been 100% owned by Marvel, and who has been flipped around in various ways over the years. Kirby had no input into Claremont's run on the character, and I doubt Stan had much, either. I'm certain none of them were asked when Greg Pak came up with the Eisenhardt identity, either. Marvel own Magneto, and can do what they like with him. He was originally a sort of Hitler figure, so he's clearly come a long way.

And in the end, the only thing that matters at all is that they make films people will enjoy watching.

All of these characters have been reinvented, rebooted, relaunched and largely re-cast multiple times already. None of the three actors who have played Magneto on film are even Jewish.

As for creating new characters, that's a fair point, but Disney didn't pay four billion dollars for Marvel so they could make up new characters. That's the sandbox they have, and it's the one they are going to keep going back to. It's worked pretty well for them so far.

And the X-Men characters, Marvel have not had the chance to make any films of their own with those yet. Disney did not buy Fox just to get the X-Men back, but now they do have them back, they are obviously going to want to use them. That means a new Magneto, and he can't realistically be a Holocaust survivor any more. So he will need to be reinvented. They all will.

And given how dreadful Dark Phoenix was, that's probably no bad thing, is it?
Fuck the Daily Mail.
Abolish FIFA
www.twitter.com/AndrewNessy

Online Something Worse

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,891
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5688 on: Yesterday at 02:46:34 AM »
I'll miss Fassbender as Magneto, even in his little run in Dark Phoenix he's comfortably the most watchable guy on screen.

People would lose their shit but imagine if they made him a Palestinian?

Online Brian Blessed

  • Gordon's ALIVE? Practically Bear Grylls. Backwards Bluesman Bastard.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,626
  • Super Title: Feedback Tourist #4
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5689 on: Yesterday at 03:33:50 AM »
I'll miss Fassbender as Magneto, even in his little run in Dark Phoenix he's comfortably the most watchable guy on screen.

People would lose their shit but imagine if they made him a Palestinian?

Would they? The people who actually go and see these films worldwide. Not that I'm a fan of lumping "people" together.

Offline Macphisto80

  • The Picasso of RAWK. But wants to shag Charlie Brooker. Go figure! Wants to hear about bi-curious Shauno's fantasies.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,913
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5690 on: Yesterday at 03:45:36 AM »
The people who get pissed off at the unfaithful recreation of the characters probably amounts to little more than 1% of the audience of these movies, why pander to them?
True, it's probably a very low percentage. However, if you've been keeping up with nerd culture via Youtube or whatnot, there are some very prominent channels and Youtubers pandering to politics and creating narratives according to their own politics that may, or in a lot of cases, may not exist. I've noticed this is becoming a rising trend too. Outrage of people being seemingly outraged by what they would call "outrage culture". The irony and hypocrisy of these people is astounding, and frankly fucking bores the bollocks out of me to listen to. It's gotten to the point now where if they even get a whiff that a woman is taking the leading role of something they are into (or not into) they vent their bile out into the comments sections of social media. It's a recent thing too, and I dare say that the likes of the orange-faced fuckwit across the Atlantic, and Brexit as had a major role in it. The sad thing is, it's grown men venting their political vitriol on comic book films and Star Wars of all things.

Online Something Worse

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,891
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5691 on: Yesterday at 03:51:23 AM »
Would they? The people who actually go and see these films worldwide. Not that I'm a fan of lumping "people" together.

These people:

True, it's probably a very low percentage. However, if you've been keeping up with nerd culture via Youtube or whatnot, there are some very prominent channels and Youtubers pandering to politics and creating narratives according to their own politics that may, or in a lot of cases, may not exist. I've noticed this is becoming a rising trend too. Outrage of people being seemingly outraged by what they would call "outrage culture". The irony and hypocrisy of these people is astounding, and frankly fucking bores the bollocks out of me to listen to. It's gotten to the point now where if they even get a whiff that a woman is taking the leading role of something they are into (or not into) they vent their bile out into the comments sections of social media. It's a recent thing too, and I dare say that the likes of the orange-faced fuckwit across the Atlantic, and Brexit as had a major role in it. The sad thing is, it's grown men venting their political vitriol on comic book films and Star Wars of all things.

I just think it would be a bold move to replace a Jewish survivor of the holocaust with a Palestinian victim of Israel's treatment of Palestine.

Offline Macphisto80

  • The Picasso of RAWK. But wants to shag Charlie Brooker. Go figure! Wants to hear about bi-curious Shauno's fantasies.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,913
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5692 on: Yesterday at 04:07:08 AM »
These people:

I just think it would be a bold move to replace a Jewish survivor of the holocaust with a Palestinian victim of Israel's treatment of Palestine.
Yeah, it'd be bold, but a bit too transparent, and to be honest, I don't think something that's designed to be entertainment should be the place for something that is obviously making some kind of modern political statement. There's other forums for that. I know comics do have underlying political subtexts to them, but to change them willy-nilly like that is just pushing an agenda down people's eyes and ears to the point where it just belittles what they are pushing it for.

Online Something Worse

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,891
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5693 on: Yesterday at 04:37:06 AM »
Yeah, it'd be bold, but a bit too transparent, and to be honest, I don't think something that's designed to be entertainment should be the place for something that is obviously making some kind of modern political statement. There's other forums for that. I know comics do have underlying political subtexts to them, but to change them willy-nilly like that is just pushing an agenda down people's eyes and ears to the point where it just belittles what they are pushing it for.

Oh totally, I just can't imagine anything more ballsy. My guess is they do black guys (Denzel and Fishburne!) and connect it to the civil rights movement

Offline AndyMuller

  • Has always wondered how to do it. Rice, Rice, Baby. Wants to have George Michael.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,071
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5694 on: Today at 04:36:08 PM »
So RDJ is back as Iron Man in the upcoming Black Widow film.

Online Something Worse

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,891
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5695 on: Today at 04:43:48 PM »
It's a prequel set around Civil War apparently, but sort of a shame his death lasted one movie.

Offline gazzalfc

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,445
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5696 on: Today at 06:12:26 PM »
If they are going down the multiverse route then all bets are off

Offline Macphisto80

  • The Picasso of RAWK. But wants to shag Charlie Brooker. Go figure! Wants to hear about bi-curious Shauno's fantasies.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,913
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5697 on: Today at 06:33:30 PM »
Well, they did chuck in the whole time travel thing for a reason, I think. It wasn't just to serve the plot. Can just about hear the groans of CGI artists once they realised they'll have to de-age everyone.

Offline fucking appalled

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,160
  • Buck Dancer
Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5698 on: Today at 10:48:46 PM »
Yeah or.....itís a prequel. You know....set in the past.

You know how like  and  were in  even though theyíd already
I believe the average spend will go up £5 ahead and thatís being very conservative. So thatís £185k. Then you have a new 25k who will spend £10 a head thatís £250k. This is without the massively enhanced hospitality areas.