Author Topic: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.  (Read 336102 times)

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5680 on: September 13, 2019, 05:55:09 PM »
Because it's insulting.



I bet you take offense at every opportunity,no matter the subject. 


I had no idea that they were originally loosely based on Dr.King and Malcolm X.  :thumbup
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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5681 on: September 13, 2019, 05:58:45 PM »
This crap has been going round and round for so long now. My view has generally been that unless a characters race is completely tied to their identity (Luke Cage, Kamala Khan), then it doesnt really matter if you change it.

With Magneto, that story has been covered over what, nine films now in recent memory? Is there any value in doing it again with the exact same beats? You could just not use him, sure, or you could take the interesting aspects of his character, oppression of a group of people, revenge, the questionable methods, the paranoia that it will happen again etc, and tell a new story with it in a more modern setting. I'd be fine with it, sounds interesting. You could make a new character with a new name, but isnt that kind of what you'd be doing anyway? All they would be borrowing is the mutant moniker Magneto, and the powers. Same as they do with MJ in the Spider-Man films, shes completely different to comic MJ in personality, looks, background, her initials are just "MJ". Also she rules, as does Marissa Tomei as Aunt May, so I'm completely on board for this kinda thing.

Having to do everything the same as the comic is boring, its OK to shake things up when a character and story was first conceived decades ago in a completely different cultural environment.


The same people would be just as outraged and use the exact same arguments against it.
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Offline Sheer Magnetism

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5682 on: September 13, 2019, 07:29:53 PM »
It also completely fails to recognise that one of the main reasons they changed things for this current Spider-Man series is because we've seen the traditional versions on screen - the first Tobey Maguire film is only 17 years old! Since 2002, we've had three films in that series plus another two starring Andrew Garfield. So understandably, they decided to change things with this series - knowing fine well that there'll be a new version in a few years which will have its own take on the source material.
I agree, it is stale. To be honest, I'd have been happier with Miles Morales as the MCU Spider-Man, considering the series is loosely based on the Ultimate Marvel universe anyway (Nick Fury obviously, and the cinema Thor is closer too). As long as it was an accuarate representation of the character.
I also just don't get the Aunt May complaints. I'm no expert on the comics, but I presume her defining character trait isn't being old with white hair. And Marisa Tomei would have been 50 when she made her Marvel debut, so let's not pretend it's crazy to think she might have a 15 year old nephew.
Her defining character traits are her kindness and vulnerability. Parker can't let her or the world find out his secret identity because he's terrified she'll disapprove of him and fall into serious ill health. Same with Jameson - he villainises Spider-Man but gave Peter his break as a photographer, so there's also that gratitude in the background. It's a three-dimensional relationship. I said it in a longer post a while back but it's that tension that makes the character is so rich, like the fact his jock peers think Peter's a pathetic nerd but Spider-Man is cool. It can still function as a generic superhero film without those elements, without May's frailty and vulnerability, but it feels flatter and more generic.

I bet you take offense at every opportunity,no matter the subject. 

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5683 on: September 14, 2019, 12:02:55 AM »
Magneto isn't American, he's an immigrant whose name is Eisenhardt.

That's a retcon. His original name was Magnus. Then it was Lehnsherr when Chris Claremont decided to make him an Auschwitz survivor, almost twenty years after the character first appeared.

But that would make him a gypsy and Marvel preferred the idea he was Jewish, so they turned him Jewish. "Eisenhardt" has been his surname since, what, 2008? (Until they decide to change it again.)

So yeah, good example.
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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5684 on: September 14, 2019, 12:11:02 AM »
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline Sheer Magnetism

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5685 on: September 14, 2019, 01:03:24 AM »
That's a retcon. His original name was Magnus. Then it was Lehnsherr when Chris Claremont decided to make him an Auschwitz survivor, almost twenty years after the character first appeared.

But that would make him a gypsy and Marvel preferred the idea he was Jewish, so they turned him Jewish. "Eisenhardt" has been his surname since, what, 2008? (Until they decide to change it again.)

So yeah, good example.
Magneto being a Holocaust survivor and Jewish immigrant is nearly 40 years old, ie. two-thirds of the character's existence. It's canon, so yeah it is a good example. Lehnsherr, Eisenhardt - he's still a Jewish, Eastern European immigrant, and that was something that was added rather than changed. The idea he was ever intended to be one of the Roma is simply false, it was actually something that Marvel dropped on the character without creator permission and relatively quickly went back on.

But my position, as it was from the first post, was that I'd rather see existing characters be promoted or new ones created than changing existing characters' ethnicity. That goes for Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One every bit as much as for an explicity non-Jewish Magneto. These characters have a 50-year long visual trail, if you genuinely want to shake things up then actually do it and go for something genuinely fresh rather than reusing the same characters ad nauseum.

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5686 on: September 14, 2019, 01:56:37 AM »
Agreed. Magneto being about 95 when the X-Men show up in the MCU is far preferable to having the disgusting idea of changing his skin tone.

But if they must...2/3rds of his existence is canon, so if they do "black face" him around 2025, at least that will become canon in 70 years from now. Assuming these numbers hold.

Thank goodness the vast majority of famous comic book characters were created by white men in the early to mid 20th century. Otherwise we'd have to worry about diversity, and being in the 21st century, and learning from the past. Fuck that.

It's also perfectly reasonable that Peter Parker has a 75 year old aunt. We'll square it aware as his grandad was one of those weird fuckers that had a daughter with a wife around his age, pissed off and then had another kid with a woman 30 years younger. And then the two half sisters became close. It happens.

OR. we can say the films are adaptions.

The best way to rally against these egregious changes is to vote with your wallet and your mouth.  Don't pay to see the films, don't talk about them.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5687 on: September 14, 2019, 02:27:52 AM »
Magneto being a Holocaust survivor and Jewish immigrant is nearly 40 years old, ie. two-thirds of the character's existence. It's canon, so yeah it is a good example. Lehnsherr, Eisenhardt - he's still a Jewish, Eastern European immigrant, and that was something that was added rather than changed. The idea he was ever intended to be one of the Roma is simply false, it was actually something that Marvel dropped on the character without creator permission and relatively quickly went back on.

But my position, as it was from the first post, was that I'd rather see existing characters be promoted or new ones created than changing existing characters' ethnicity. That goes for Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One every bit as much as for an explicity non-Jewish Magneto. These characters have a 50-year long visual trail, if you genuinely want to shake things up then actually do it and go for something genuinely fresh rather than reusing the same characters ad nauseum.

"Creator permission" is a tricky concept when you are talking about a character created as "work for hire" by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, who has always been 100% owned by Marvel, and who has been flipped around in various ways over the years. Kirby had no input into Claremont's run on the character, and I doubt Stan had much, either. I'm certain none of them were asked when Greg Pak came up with the Eisenhardt identity, either. Marvel own Magneto, and can do what they like with him. He was originally a sort of Hitler figure, so he's clearly come a long way.

And in the end, the only thing that matters at all is that they make films people will enjoy watching.

All of these characters have been reinvented, rebooted, relaunched and largely re-cast multiple times already. None of the three actors who have played Magneto on film are even Jewish.

As for creating new characters, that's a fair point, but Disney didn't pay four billion dollars for Marvel so they could make up new characters. That's the sandbox they have, and it's the one they are going to keep going back to. It's worked pretty well for them so far.

And the X-Men characters, Marvel have not had the chance to make any films of their own with those yet. Disney did not buy Fox just to get the X-Men back, but now they do have them back, they are obviously going to want to use them. That means a new Magneto, and he can't realistically be a Holocaust survivor any more. So he will need to be reinvented. They all will.

And given how dreadful Dark Phoenix was, that's probably no bad thing, is it?
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5688 on: September 14, 2019, 02:46:34 AM »
I'll miss Fassbender as Magneto, even in his little run in Dark Phoenix he's comfortably the most watchable guy on screen.

People would lose their shit but imagine if they made him a Palestinian?

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5689 on: September 14, 2019, 03:33:50 AM »
I'll miss Fassbender as Magneto, even in his little run in Dark Phoenix he's comfortably the most watchable guy on screen.

People would lose their shit but imagine if they made him a Palestinian?

Would they? The people who actually go and see these films worldwide. Not that I'm a fan of lumping "people" together.

Offline Macphisto80

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5690 on: September 14, 2019, 03:45:36 AM »
The people who get pissed off at the unfaithful recreation of the characters probably amounts to little more than 1% of the audience of these movies, why pander to them?
True, it's probably a very low percentage. However, if you've been keeping up with nerd culture via Youtube or whatnot, there are some very prominent channels and Youtubers pandering to politics and creating narratives according to their own politics that may, or in a lot of cases, may not exist. I've noticed this is becoming a rising trend too. Outrage of people being seemingly outraged by what they would call "outrage culture". The irony and hypocrisy of these people is astounding, and frankly fucking bores the bollocks out of me to listen to. It's gotten to the point now where if they even get a whiff that a woman is taking the leading role of something they are into (or not into) they vent their bile out into the comments sections of social media. It's a recent thing too, and I dare say that the likes of the orange-faced fuckwit across the Atlantic, and Brexit as had a major role in it. The sad thing is, it's grown men venting their political vitriol on comic book films and Star Wars of all things.

Offline Macphisto80

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5691 on: September 14, 2019, 04:07:08 AM »
These people:

I just think it would be a bold move to replace a Jewish survivor of the holocaust with a Palestinian victim of Israel's treatment of Palestine.
Yeah, it'd be bold, but a bit too transparent, and to be honest, I don't think something that's designed to be entertainment should be the place for something that is obviously making some kind of modern political statement. There's other forums for that. I know comics do have underlying political subtexts to them, but to change them willy-nilly like that is just pushing an agenda down people's eyes and ears to the point where it just belittles what they are pushing it for.

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5692 on: September 14, 2019, 04:37:06 AM »
Yeah, it'd be bold, but a bit too transparent, and to be honest, I don't think something that's designed to be entertainment should be the place for something that is obviously making some kind of modern political statement. There's other forums for that. I know comics do have underlying political subtexts to them, but to change them willy-nilly like that is just pushing an agenda down people's eyes and ears to the point where it just belittles what they are pushing it for.

Oh totally, I just can't imagine anything more ballsy. My guess is they do black guys (Denzel and Fishburne!) and connect it to the civil rights movement

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5693 on: September 15, 2019, 04:36:08 PM »
So RDJ is back as Iron Man in the upcoming Black Widow film.

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5694 on: September 15, 2019, 04:43:48 PM »
It's a prequel set around Civil War apparently, but sort of a shame his death lasted one movie.

Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5695 on: September 15, 2019, 06:12:26 PM »
If they are going down the multiverse route then all bets are off

Offline Macphisto80

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5696 on: September 15, 2019, 06:33:30 PM »
Well, they did chuck in the whole time travel thing for a reason, I think. It wasn't just to serve the plot. Can just about hear the groans of CGI artists once they realised they'll have to de-age everyone.

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5697 on: September 15, 2019, 10:48:46 PM »
Yeah or.....it’s a prequel. You know....set in the past.

You know how like  and  were in  even though they’d already
Or he could read Babu's Twitter threads, which is where I get my opinions from

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5698 on: September 16, 2019, 03:28:33 AM »
Yeah or.....it’s a prequel. You know....set in the past.

You know how like  and  were in  even though they’d already

14 years and still gets spoiler tags :D
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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5699 on: September 16, 2019, 09:46:55 AM »
These people:

I just think it would be a bold move to replace a Jewish survivor of the holocaust with a Palestinian victim of Israel's treatment of Palestine.

"Bold move" - That last sentence is a disgraceful remark on its own merits - and certainly has no place in a discussion of a comic book franchise. Don't DM me or any such nonsense either.
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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5700 on: September 16, 2019, 04:13:12 PM »
‘Kin hell.

Seriously who gives a fuck about skin colour, I just want someone to make a decent fucking x-men movie that isn’t campy and full of origin bullshit.

Offline RacerX34

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5701 on: September 16, 2019, 04:16:33 PM »
‘Kin hell.

Seriously who gives a fuck about skin colour, I just want someone to make a decent fucking x-men movie that isn’t campy and full of origin bullshit.

I just want a proper Gambit & Rogue movie.

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5702 on: September 16, 2019, 04:29:23 PM »
‘Kin hell.

Seriously who gives a fuck about skin colour, I just want someone to make a decent fucking x-men movie that isn’t campy and full of origin bullshit.

Marvel basically make campy origin stories as their bread and butter, it might be a rough few years...

Offline RacerX34

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5703 on: September 16, 2019, 04:40:01 PM »
Marvel basically make campy origin stories as their bread and butter, it might be a rough few years...

I'll take a campy/flirty Rogue over the goth emo one that was served up before.

Offline wampa1

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5704 on: September 16, 2019, 07:24:00 PM »
X-Men is serious business.

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5705 on: September 16, 2019, 09:25:41 PM »
It's a prequel set around Civil War apparently, but sort of a shame his death lasted one movie.

You could say that about Black Widow too lol.

Hell, who's to say Steve Rodgers doesn't turn up, on his way putting the Infinity Stones back?
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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5706 on: September 16, 2019, 10:17:23 PM »
I just want a proper Gambit & Rogue movie.

I'm with you, brother.

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5707 on: September 17, 2019, 02:22:26 AM »
My feeling is with X-Men, they can either have the whole cast fairly young with Fassbender and McAvoy and set it in the 60s-80s, like the series just ended, and hook it into the broader MCU via time travel/interdimensional travel.

Or they could have an older Magneto/Professor X and have the rest of the cast be younger, like X-Men-X-Men 3. Either works.

I actually think the X-Men franchise is too big and unwieldy and doesn't really marry up with the MCU though due to sheer size. Too many characters, too many balls in the air. Feige will mess up sooner or later.

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5708 on: September 17, 2019, 10:28:11 AM »
Can someone explain how and why the tesseract features in so many marvel films?

So far I've seen it being unearthed from a Norwegian safe house by a crazy nazi. 

Attached to Loki's Scepter.

An infinity stone in both Guardians films, infinity wars and endgame.

Being tracked down by the Skrulls and the Kree in Captain Marvel.

Is it more than just the "one" stone as in it's an energy source that's also a powerful weapon?

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Offline Trump's tiny tiny hands

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5709 on: September 17, 2019, 10:46:06 AM »
Can someone explain how and why the tesseract features in so many marvel films?

So far I've seen it being unearthed from a Norwegian safe house by a crazy nazi. 

Attached to Loki's Scepter.

An infinity stone in both Guardians films, infinity wars and endgame.

Being tracked down by the Skrulls and the Kree in Captain Marvel.

Is it more than just the "one" stone as in it's an energy source that's also a powerful weapon?

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Different stone

Offline Betty Blue

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5710 on: September 17, 2019, 11:16:28 AM »
My feeling is with X-Men, they can either have the whole cast fairly young with Fassbender and McAvoy and set it in the 60s-80s, like the series just ended, and hook it into the broader MCU via time travel/interdimensional travel.

Or they could have an older Magneto/Professor X and have the rest of the cast be younger, like X-Men-X-Men 3. Either works.

I actually think the X-Men franchise is too big and unwieldy and doesn't really marry up with the MCU though due to sheer size. Too many characters, too many balls in the air. Feige will mess up sooner or later.

I wonder if they might introduce the X-Men in a similar way to how they did the Avengers. Rather than going headlong into an ensemble movie, they could introduce a number of the more interestering characters in solo movies (oh please God, Gambit) while being careful not to retread old ground with Fox's versions - i.e. the Wolverine saturation. Having said that, the Avengers 'A-list' stars lend themselves far more to solo movies. Another direction is to use links to current characters in the MCU. Storm could easily appear in Black Panther, Kitty Pryde in Guardians, Wolverine and Deadpool love-in etc. It's a difficult task though as the Fox iterations are still quite fresh in our minds. Like you say, one option is to keep on McAvoy and Fassbender, meaning they instantly avoid repeating themselves with origin stories. But I think this is the least likely outcome. I believe they will want to put their own stamp on the franchise without any previous baggage. Doing Apocalypse justice is an absolute must.

Although hesitant at first, the more I think about the idea of throwing Professor X and Magneto forward into the black rights era, the more interesting this could be. Especially as a way to truly separate these films from Fox's versions. I loved the dream casting above of Denzel and Fishbourne. Actually not sure who should play who! I think giving both characters their own separate movie could be very interesting as well. Giving a villain in Magneto his own solo movie would certainly be new for the MCU. It would also give both characters the proper screen time to fully immerse us into their opposing ideologies. Because that's the thing about Eric, he isn't completely wrong - even if his methods are. It's mad that I never knew about the story being based on MLK and Malcolm X because it makes so much sense when you realise it.

In any case, I think we'll see the Fantastic Four introduced first. Especially because all previous films are utter shite, so no-one needs to compare anything. I wait in hope for a proper origin story for one of my favourite Marvel characters - Norinn Rad AKA the Silver Surfer.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 11:19:26 AM by Betty Blue »
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Offline WillG.LFC

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5711 on: September 17, 2019, 02:22:47 PM »
Think x men is too big a cast to add to the existing world. I suspect they may introduce them in a crossover avengers film first as part of another universe where they come together to fight a common foe like galactus or each other. They can then do xmen films thereafter in that already established world without having to fit in where they have been hiding so far

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5712 on: September 17, 2019, 02:27:17 PM »
Can someone explain how and why the tesseract features in so many marvel films?

So far I've seen it being unearthed from a Norwegian safe house by a crazy nazi. 

Attached to Loki's Scepter.

An infinity stone in both Guardians films, infinity wars and endgame.

Being tracked down by the Skrulls and the Kree in Captain Marvel.

Is it more than just the "one" stone as in it's an energy source that's also a powerful weapon?

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

It’s one of the infinity stones (6, possibly 7, of them) which contain unlimited energy and feature across many of the storylines - hence why they are often in so many of the films.

As someone said above the one in Loki’s sceptre was not the tesseract, it was the mind stone.

Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5713 on: September 17, 2019, 03:43:27 PM »
Well like they said in endgame

'If you pick the right time, there are 3 stones in New York'

3 stones of unlimited energy and power all within 10 blocks of each other

They are macguffins that drive the story and that is going to be the next big issue in the MCU. What macguffin can you have thats equal/more important than singularities of unlimited power

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5714 on: September 17, 2019, 04:14:03 PM »
Just watched Dark Phoenix, what a terrible movie.

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5715 on: September 19, 2019, 12:12:50 PM »
Just watched Dark Phoenix, what a terrible movie.

I heard The Joker is also a dark Phoenix movie
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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5716 on: September 19, 2019, 01:31:04 PM »
I wonder if they might introduce the X-Men in a similar way to how they did the Avengers. Rather than going headlong into an ensemble movie, they could introduce a number of the more interestering characters in solo movies

My plan for ages was this - introduce Bobby Drake in Spider-Man 3, introduce Ororo Munroe in Black Panther 2, have post credit scenes in each with Xavier inviting them to his school.  Then you do X-Men with Jean, Scott and Hank already there and Bobby and Ororo as new students.

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5717 on: September 19, 2019, 06:45:06 PM »
Just watched Dark Phoenix, what a terrible movie.

Yep just awful, Sophie Turner being the worst on display here, closely followed by the usually good Jessica Chastain, Definitely the worst X men movie
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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5718 on: September 19, 2019, 08:37:56 PM »
Apocalypse was way worse. They should have called it a day with Days of Future Past (and Logan, obvz).

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Re: Marvel Musings. Now with Endgame Spoilers.
« Reply #5719 on: September 20, 2019, 01:53:22 AM »
Oh totally, I just can't imagine anything more ballsy. My guess is they do black guys (Denzel and Fishburne!) and connect it to the civil rights movement

The keen investigative journalists at TheLadBible say Denzel is in line to play Magneto.

You're all welcome. I forgot Fishburne was in AntMan 2: Ant Harder so I guess that won't happen, but also at this point Marvel don't really care about any of that so why not just reuse him?

Rudd can look at the camera and wink when they first appear on screen together.