Topic: Southampton Round Table

[lorenzo23]

Don't think much needs to be said we was set up wrong from the off set, the signs were there in earlier games Wigan and even more so in the Spurs game. When you set up so open you can expect that the other team will get time and space. Gerrard too old, Lucas is just recovering (have some good games some average)/Allen well he seems to just be hot and cold at the moment and Henderson not sure why he not in team he been great in my opinion.

We got punished for leaving so much space, hopfully the manager will learn from it and move back to 4231 system and adjust players accordingly. Another point any time there seems to be slight bit of pressure like top 4 we seem to crumble.

One more thing not sure if we practice at all but set plays are shocking at times its so scary every time the ball goes into are box even from crossing. We really need to deal with this as its massive issue how poor we are at defending it.

[Twelfth Man]

Don't be surprised to see Carra announced as defensive coach in the summer. And whatever your view of the lad is, he can organise a defence

We'll need some scouse interpreters Good shout.

[PhaseOfPlay]

On what basis are you saying it was a policy to build from the front first rather than lucky happenstance? perhaps the right players at the right price just have not been available. iF Kompany had been available and still playing at Hamburg would we have snapped him up, if Baines had been at Wigan and a bargain would we have grabbed him?

What have we clearly worked on in training and clearly not worked on? I'm not talking about "building from the front" in terms of transfers. I'm talking about coaching plans for the season. It is quite obvious that Rodgers wanted to get the attacking and possession part of the game right first, and hope that the defence would do a job until he could get to that stage. You only have to look at the patterns of movement and the principles of play that show themselves in the game to see that there has been an abundance of time spent on triggers for possession and a dearth of work done on triggers for pressing and compactness and squeezing the space around the ball.

at the end of last season the defence looked reasonably solid - Agger and Skrtel were thought as good as anything in the Prem - the illuminati on here had been screaming for them for three years given Carra's steady decline - BR's philosophy is agnostic on the subject though isn't it? He needs all areas of his team functioning. Is he really building from the front or getting what pieces he can, when he can and at optimum cost. He gave Skrtel a new contract in the summer didn't he? Does that count as building?

If you think only in transfers, then you could be right. But I'm thinking in terms of what he has clearly been coaching the players.

Dont buy it myself but your opinion as always gives pause for thought.

In terms of the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil approach to BR's management again it strikes me as daft - when we win the lads a tactical genius and his philosophy heaven sent - winnning heavily is down to him, we lose and the players let him down..... really that black and white eh? We need to be a bit more grown up, the lads going to make mistakes better recognising them, so we can see if he's addresiong them than pretending they dont exist and it'll all work when he gets the right players.

I think a lot of posters are blaming Rodgers outright - some in here and a lot in the post-match thread. My take is that all of them are guilty of not doing their best on Saturday - players and manager. It's only the 2nd or 3rd game this season where I looked at it and thought "What are you doing, Brendan?". I think reasonable posters (such as yourself) can see the mistakes he made and accept them as such. Others seemed to think that this game represented the entire canon of Rodgers' work with Liverpool.

If Gerrard and Johnson are so predictably complacent then why hasn't the manager who spends all week with them predicted it? Thats as much of his job as telling them what position to play isn't it? If Gerrard is strolling through the game wheres the hook and Henderson's puppy like enthusiasm unchained?

Because when you go against the senior players at a club, you get ousted before you know it (Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas and Chelsea,Clough and Leeds, for example). He's being a little bit clever in that respect, but next season could be different.

Thankfully BR knows more about football than me, a lot of you know more than me as well, it really isn't hard - doesn't mean you can't get it wrong as saturday and this thread show.

You know a hell of a lot, mate. It's a pleasure to read your posts every week. Incredibly thought-provoking and always get me to think about football in a different way. Rodgers made a huge tactical gaffe on Saturday. For me, though, thankfully it is more of an aberration on his part than the standard weekly fare. We could see a change or a return of emphasis against Villa.

[Twelfth Man]

Do we need a pacy leggy defensive midfielder in the Dembele mould?

Must admit I was salivating looking at Dembele last week. His ball control reminds me of a couple of French Algerian footballers past and present in the way he glides with the ball. Gerrard use to provide a central thrust through the middle and we have been missing it for a while. The thing about Dembele is that he possibly is better defensively than what Gerrard was in his pomp. I felt at the time, Spurs have a number of qualities, in defence and midfield particularly that we need to address next summer. The problem with getting a Diame/Dembele type player is what do you do with Lucas/Gerrard? There are so many issues to consider when addressing this one position.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Must admit I was salivating looking at Dembele last week. His ball control reminds me of a couple of French Algerian footballers past and present in the way he glides with the ball. Gerrard use to provide a central thrust through the middle and we have been missing it for a while. The thing about Dembele is that he possibly is better defensively than what Gerrard was in his pomp. I felt at the time, Spurs have a number of qualities, in defence and midfield particularly that we need to address next summer. The problem with getting a Diame/Dembele type player is what do you do with Lucas/Gerrard? There are so many issues to consider when addressing this one position.

For Gerrard, you clearly rotate him - he's not getting any younger, he's past his peak ability, and until he retires from England, the rest would do him good. Gerrard will probably retire in the next 3 years (or radically change his position), so that wouldn't be an issue. Lucas has had a bad injury, so his knee is structurally weak (ligaments don't heal 100% as they have a poor blood supply), so rotation would do him good too - more rest equals more security for longer. So it would absolutely be workable to get a Diame/Dembele type of player (although Diame has the same issue now that Lucas has, so he would be a risk himself).

[Kali Yuga]

Must admit I was salivating looking at Dembele last week. His ball control reminds me of a couple of French Algerian footballers past and present in the way he glides with the ball. Gerrard use to provide a central thrust through the middle and we have been missing it for a while. The thing about Dembele is that he possibly is better defensively than what Gerrard was in his pomp. I felt at the time, Spurs have a number of qualities, in defence and midfield particularly that we need to address next summer. The problem with getting a Diame/Dembele type player is what do you do with Lucas/Gerrard? There are so many issues to consider when addressing this one position.

This is where Gerrard being an undroppable club legend is almost a bit of a problem. Thankfully he's been playing very well this season after a slow start (and then with thanks to Lucas and Henderson who freed him up), but I do think Rodgers has his hands tied to a degree in how he deals with him. Gerrard is bigger than Rodgers. Until he's ready to retire or willingly retract into the squad, I don't think Rodgers can plan for a starting XI that doesn't include him. Even if that means we're sticking to a starting XI that has to have his limitations (albeit, of course, he brings great positives too).

[Gazzab]

Shocking performance and I cannot believe that LFC have come away from Southampton saying we need a defensive midfielder I mean WTF. We are miles away from where we need to be, if our back four cannot cope with the Saints front line we are screwed.

[Twelfth Man]

One thing I don't get, which also relates to PhaseofPlay's point about posters who've actually played the game, why don't the players react to what everyone could see was happening within 5 minutes? We were way too stretched and being swamped. The attacking players could see what was happening, aren't they allowed to use their eyes and brain's and react to the situation on the pitch, even if they are not getting directions from the coach? Why couldn't Gerrard or one of the other senior players tell the attacking quartet to drop back, get a bit more compact and help out? Or do players simply carry out instructions like automatons? You would think at this level, the players can see what is unfolding and make relatively minor adjustments in position to help out the team and their team-mates.

[Mutton Geoff]

Shocking performance and I cannot believe that LFC have come away from Southampton saying we need a defensive midfielder I mean WTF. We are miles away from where we need to be, if our back four cannot cope with the Saints front line we are screwed.

Stay away from the ship canal lad, 

it was just a game.

[PhaseOfPlay]

One thing I don't get, which also relates to PhaseofPlay's point about posters who've actually played the game, why don't the players react to what everyone could see was happening within 5 minutes? We were way too stretched and being swamped. The attacking players could see what was happening, aren't they allowed to use their eyes and brain's and react to the situation on the pitch, even if they are not getting directions from the coach? Why couldn't Gerrard or one of the other senior players tell the attacking quartet to drop back, get a bit more compact and help out? Or do players simply carry out instructions like automatons? You would think at this level, the players can see what is unfolding and make relatively minor adjustments in position to help out the team and their team-mates.

Remember last season when the players were more or less left to their own devices in the attack, but were well drilled and rehearsed in defence?

A lot of our players are not "thinking" players. They don't read the game. Most will not make it as managers if they choose that route. Lucas will - he thinks the game. Hyppia thought about the game, he's not doing too bad at all. In Holland, they don't say they are developing players - they say they are developing future coaches. Carragher will become a good coach with experience, because he thinks the game. It is no surprise that we've played a lot tighter at the back in open play when he returned to the side - he played like a traditional central defender once the ball moved into the middle and attacking thirds. So yes, you would think that the players would adjust to what they see - but I think a lot of these players are still stuck in a state of learned helplessness.

[Twelfth Man]

In Holland, they don't say they are developing players - they say they are developing future coaches.

I hope our Academy is following this approach.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Remember last season when the players were more or less left to their own devices in the attack, but were well drilled and rehearsed in defence?

A lot of our players are not "thinking" players. They don't read the game. Most will not make it as managers if they choose that route. Lucas will - he thinks the game. Hyppia thought about the game, he's not doing too bad at all. In Holland, they don't say they are developing players - they say they are developing future coaches. Carragher will become a good coach with experience, because he thinks the game. It is no surprise that we've played a lot tighter at the back in open play when he returned to the side - he played like a traditional central defender once the ball moved into the middle and attacking thirds. So yes, you would think that the players would adjust to what they see - but I think a lot of these players are still stuck in a state of learned helplessness.

That's interesting. I have always had the notion that a few of them were a bit less developed between the ears. Johnson and Enrique are the biggest culprits for me, faced with too many or not enough options they are awful IMO. Skertle doesn't strike me as a thinker, and say it quietly I don't hink Gerrard is coach material either.

It's going back to Roy's stupid football thread. You eradicate it by selection, mature players without it are never going to get it. But it's going to take time to bring in players with the right game intelligence. The good news is perhaps that it seams to have been one of the major recruitment factors at the youth levels for a while now.

[Kali Yuga]

Does Suarez think the game? Or does he simply attack the game and shred it to pieces.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Does Suarez think the game? Or does he simply attack the game and shred it to pieces.

His decision making is often not team tactical, so I'm guessing that he is 90 percent instinct. And that's fine for me because he has a touch of genius and he plays up top.

[Mutton Geoff]

Does Suarez think the game? Or does he simply attack the game and shred it to pieces.

well i think all great players are instinctively good readers of the game, so does he think the game well he is a very crafty player, who must be a nightmare to play against, does he check out defenders before the game perhaps but for me he is a totally off the cuff player and the team fit around him.

[Timbo's Goals]

Great thread but something's missing for me - the attitude of some of the players stank.  I mean really stank.  Johnson couldn't be arsed - was just going through the motions - and Gerrard wasn't a lot better.  Downing's been so much better in recent weeks but was back to his lame previous incarnation on Saturday too.  Sturridge looked frustrated at the lack of any service too.

Anybody else pick up on this or am I in a minority of one here?

Not at all.

 

I made the same point in a roundabout way without naming any names a few posts before yours via my lighthearted lasting image of Joe Allen post. And one of the posters actually made a great point as to why Gerrard and Johnson in particular may have been comparatively speaking so woeful. 

The contrast in the workrate between the two teams was stark. And, frankly, more than a bit embarrassing. That said, these games do happen in sport but especially football as we all know too well. Even the finest teams, ours included, have succumbed to an otherwise pretty ordinary team raising its individual and collective performance level, getting in our faces and sticking one on the so-called better team. The competitive flimsiness of the essentially attack orientated team we had out plus Carragher's absence was especially vulnerable to such a "giantkilling".

Of course - and simply to bring in an entirely different perspective - you do question how the undoubtedly quite amply gifted players of the Wigans and Southamptons of this world can look themselves in the face following the remaining 90% of fixtures when they can't be fuckin arsed to raise their game to level Southampton did against us and Wigan did against Everton.   

[didi shamone]

Remember last season when the players were more or less left to their own devices in the attack, but were well drilled and rehearsed in defence?

A lot of our players are not "thinking" players. They don't read the game. Most will not make it as managers if they choose that route. Lucas will - he thinks the game. Hyppia thought about the game, he's not doing too bad at all. In Holland, they don't say they are developing players - they say they are developing future coaches. Carragher will become a good coach with experience, because he thinks the game. It is no surprise that we've played a lot tighter at the back in open play when he returned to the side - he played like a traditional central defender once the ball moved into the middle and attacking thirds. So yes, you would think that the players would adjust to what they see - but I think a lot of these players are still stuck in a state of learned helplessness.

Couldn't agree more. Many players dont think the game and it's up to the manager to make their role clear or else it results in chaos. Benitez critics believed he was too controlling  and didn't trust players enough. Whether you buy into that or not it seems to me that Rodgers may be too far the other way. Many of our players seem to lack direction when we dont have the ball. Saturday played into Gerrards weakness. When he plays deep he doesn't have the ability to read the play and finds himself wrong side of attackers. His lack of effort is another story. Add Allens horror show to that and we effectively had no midfield. I'm not against a two man midfield but it's essential that both are good readers of the game. Our defense gets stretched as a result of so many unchecked runners pulling them all over the place.
I suppose the question is do you aim to buy numerous players who are all great readers of the game to make the system work, or do you bite the bullet and change approach somewhat. I'm in favour of the latter as it's a hell of a lot cheaper and it works for better sides than us.

[Prof]

Remember last season when the players were more or less left to their own devices in the attack, but were well drilled and rehearsed in defence?

A lot of our players are not "thinking" players. They don't read the game. Most will not make it as managers if they choose that route. Lucas will - he thinks the game. Hyppia thought about the game, he's not doing too bad at all. In Holland, they don't say they are developing players - they say they are developing future coaches. Carragher will become a good coach with experience, because he thinks the game. It is no surprise that we've played a lot tighter at the back in open play when he returned to the side - he played like a traditional central defender once the ball moved into the middle and attacking thirds. So yes, you would think that the players would adjust to what they see - but I think a lot of these players are still stuck in a state of learned helplessness.

And herein lies the crux of the dilemma.

Players have to be educated to understand, not just to play on instinct.  The art of the coach is to help develop this understanding in all players.

I actually think it was the thing I respected Rafa for most.  He educated his players.  With players like Lucas and Sami, it would have been deep learning.  With Stevie, he reduced what he needed to know by simplifying his role.

How good is Rodgers as an educator?

[007.lankyguy]

A lot of my thoughts on Saturday's game were expressed in Prof's repost of mine in the match thread

[snip]

I think people are talking too much about playing two midfielders and not enough about how we weren't compact or organised enough. We needed Downing and Coutinho, when he was playing on the left, to drop into the space and control the space around Allen and Gerrard better. I honestly think most of the blame lies with the players. You can say it was naïve of Rodgers to play all four of Coutinho, Downing, Sturridge and Suarez and leave Allen and Gerrard (who have shown defensive weaknesses before) isolated and outnumbered with space around them but you have to look at the players and ask, why was there such a lack of compactness? Why were we losing the second balls? Why didn't we control the tempo better? Why didn't we play out through the full backs more against Southampton's narrow pressing block?

Clearly some blame lies with Rodgers and maybe the coaching staff for this and our lack of coordination and compactness in defending is worrying, as I talked about in the link at the top of the post. But we didn't control space or ball and if you don't do either against any well prepared, well performing team, you will lose.

One of the reasons I like Rodgers is I can see he has a plan, a vision for moving us forward. He's intelligent, he wants to create a team that controls games and wants to create the mechanisms to do that. He could have played three in the midfield but then you either have Sturridge or Suarez on the wing and you're still left with the problem of being outnumbered in a '1-2' around the holding player (presumably would have been Allen) like United were doing around Lucas at Old Trafford. The main problem I saw was a complete lack of compactness and intelligence from the team on Saturday and I think everyone was to blame for that.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

A lot of my thoughts on Saturday's game were expressed in Prof's repost of mine in the match thread

I think people are talking too much about playing two midfielders and not enough about how we weren't compact or organised enough. We needed Downing and Coutinho, when he was playing on the left, to drop into the space and control the space around Allen and Gerrard better. I honestly think most of the blame lies with the players. You can say it was naïve of Rodgers to play all four of Coutinho, Downing, Sturridge and Suarez and leave Allen and Gerrard (who have shown defensive weaknesses before) isolated and outnumbered with space around them but you have to look at the players and ask, why was there such a lack of compactness? Why were we losing the second balls? Why didn't we control the tempo better? Why didn't we play out through the full backs more against Southampton's narrow pressing block?

Clearly some blame lies with Rodgers and maybe the coaching staff for this and our lack of coordination and compactness in defending is worrying, as I talked about in the link at the top of the post. But we didn't control space or ball and if you don't do either against any well prepared, well performing team, you will lose.

One of the reasons I like Rodgers is I can see he has a plan, a vision for moving us forward. He's intelligent, he wants to create a team that controls games and wants to create the mechanisms to do that. He could have played three in the midfield but then you either have Sturridge or Suarez on the wing and you're still left with the problem of being outnumbered in a '1-2' around the holding player (presumably would have been Allen) like United were doing around Lucas at Old Trafford. The main problem I saw was a complete lack of compactness and intelligence from the team on Saturday and I think everyone was to blame for that.

Posts like this, from posters like that gives me great hop for the future.

[Prof]

Well said again L G.  I hope me reposting you in here was ok 

I'd started to reply in the post match just as it was locked.

[mulfella]

I enjoy reading your post but the stats for last season need to be taken in entirety yes we scored 47 but lets add the mammoth times we hit the woodwork, if only half of those go in you get a different picture.

To be fair its hard enough for Rogers to have to follow Kenny without him having to live up to ' if it hadn't been for the....' as well.

[Vulmea]

If we are building from the front, trying to recognise triggers, particular movements then what does a player like Luis do to that approach - he doesn't even know what he'll do from one second to the next - he has linked well with Coutinho in  a short space of time but is that familiarity with system or because the brazilian has a good instinctive understanding of crazy/brilliant uruguayan? Sturridge has decent movement but is much more predictable, Suarez again has linked well with him - is that drilled or because he can use that movement to his own instinctive ends.

If you develop a 433 attacking system for half a  season, get in the players to support it and then switch to a 2 - I'm a bit baffled - its good to have options  but what does that do to your triggers  and patterns - which is why I just can't figure what the little fellla was trying to accomplish on saturday - it could be as simple as he wanted to try something different see if he could get all four in form attacking options into the game but why?

One thing with rafa you could almost always see what he was trying to do - even with the odd bizarre team selection (not just Degen) you could still see a purpose - Saturday though struggling to see it

[The G in Gerrard]

Do we need a pacy leggy defensive midfielder in the Dembele mould?

For the price he was, we should have got De Jong from City imo

[007.lankyguy]

Well said again L G.  I hope me reposting you in here was ok 

I'd started to reply in the post match just as it was locked.

Thanks, of course it was fine

[keyop]

Funny this sort of line, due to the fact that if everyone's opinion was correct, we'd need an entire new team and squad.

Sometimes you just got to make the best of what you have and thats something of a bitter piil I think we will all have to swallow come the start of next season.

I think its because many people think of the team as a jigsaw puzzle, where we just need the final missing pieces and suddenly it all goes to plan.

However, teams are not like jigsaw puzzles at all. They are like Lego. Lots of different pieces that can be assembled and changed many times over, depending on what you want to build.

We have shown on several occasions this season (especially since January) that we have the necessary pieces to build a winning team - we just need to choose the right combinations at the right times.

A few extra signings always helps, but you are right - it can't keep being 'the solution to our problems' year after year.

[steveeastend]

Did he over rate them and what they are capable of by expecting them to play to his system?

I think they're valid questions. But saying he got it wrong isn't, not when all the circumstances aren't taken into consideration.

Rodgers definitely overestimated the quality of his players in this one, you could also say he fucked it up, but that´s something we probably will see more often from him as it´s typical Rodgers, his character/style/way... whatever you wanna call it.

The way he implemented the youngsters at the beginning of the season was pretty adventurous in a similar way. I cannot think of one manager who would have done the same, ship out players we bought for big money just the season before, benching two english internationals and start with a 17 and 19 year old in the first couple of games instead.

With a manager being up for a something like this in his first couple of games at his first big club just for realising his vision of football, this line up in the Southampton game didn´t suprise me at all but it was pretty clear after the first ten minutes that he would have to rethink the pace of implemeting his vision for the next couple of games once again. 

Personally I like it, especially as I think results wouldn´t be that much different anyway due to the quality of the squad and it will give him a pretty clear result at the end of the season of what to fix for the next one.

[BCCC]

Great thread but something's missing for me - the attitude of some of the players stank.  I mean really stank.  Johnson couldn't be arsed - was just going through the motions - and Gerrard wasn't a lot better.  Downing's been so much better in recent weeks but was back to his lame previous incarnation on Saturday too.  Sturridge looked frustrated at the lack of any service too.

Anybody else pick up on this or am I in a minority of one here?

No I agree, hence why there's nothing to discuss really unless it continues. Hopefully just an off day.

[barbudo]

Remember last season when the players were more or less left to their own devices in the attack, but were well drilled and rehearsed in defence?

A lot of our players are not "thinking" players. They don't read the game. Most will not make it as managers if they choose that route. Lucas will - he thinks the game. Hyppia thought about the game, he's not doing too bad at all. In Holland, they don't say they are developing players - they say they are developing future coaches. Carragher will become a good coach with experience, because he thinks the game. It is no surprise that we've played a lot tighter at the back in open play when he returned to the side - he played like a traditional central defender once the ball moved into the middle and attacking thirds. So yes, you would think that the players would adjust to what they see - but I think a lot of these players are still stuck in a state of learned helplessness.

After that performance I'm sure that BR was asking himself why his message hasn't got through at the individual level. If you watched any of our senior players (i.e. anyone who's been in the squad since before 2012) in that game, how many of them played the game any differently than they might have under Kenny, Roy or Rafa? I certainly don't see any fundamental changes in the way in which Gerrard, Johnson, Agger, Lucas or Skrtel have played the game in that time period. Some of them may already have played the game in a way that individual managers favoured, so fundamental changes in patterns of play needn't change too much as the manager changes, but for others, they play now as they did a decade ago. 

It's a fundamental question. Once habits are established (in football, as in life), how easily can anyone else convince you to change them? Is it because they aren't "thinking players"? Or is it that habits become so instinctive in football, that it's it not possible to do more than tweak them?

So as someone said earlier in this thread, what we're witnessing is another stage in a renovation project. But coaches may have to recognize that the "heritage" elements of the building are almost immune to change, they have to be left as they are, and the project somehow has to accommodate them, or declare them redundant.

[Asam]

the best defensive team will concede 20-35 goals (approx),  when we concede 1, we allow teams to score goal #, 2 & 3 far too easily, the best teams do not let that happen more than a handful of times a season.

[PhaseOfPlay]

the best defensive team will concede 20-35 goals (approx),  when we concede 1, we allow teams to score goal #, 2 & 3 far too easily, the best teams do not let that happen more than a handful of times a season.

How many times have we conceded 3 goals this season, then?

[Andy]

How many times have we conceded 3 goals this season, then?

7 times I think?

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/match/fixtures

...sorry, 8.

[PhaseOfPlay]

7 times I think?

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/match/fixtures

...sorry, 8.

4 in the league. 4 elsewhere.

4 in the league is a handful

Joint second in clean sheets too, with 11.

[jaffod]

Will be the most goals we've conceded in a season since the early 90's, and still 8 games to go....

[Mutton Geoff]

Will be the most goals we've conceded in a season since the early 90's, and still 8 games to go....

its not the amount of goals for me its the fact many of them are the same mistakes, players running through us centrally and high balls not dealt with in the box should we not be learning from our mistakes rather than repeating them?

[Passmaster Molby]

4 in the league. 4 elsewhere.

4 in the league is a handful

Joint second in clean sheets too, with 11.

The concern for me is the number of games where we concede 2 or more (16 league games we have done this) and if you are needing 3 or more to win a game in over half of your league games then you have a real problem defensively.

[Andy]

4 in the league. 4 elsewhere.

4 in the league is a handful

Joint second in clean sheets too, with 11.

Shows how schizophrenic we are.

Don't think anyone can argue that the defense is a problem. For me there a couple of potential solutions:

- Bring back Masch. He'll provide the cover for the centrebacks that we need, when Gerrard can't be arsed, Allen isn't his game, and Lucas isn't back to full form. He (or a player like him) would also cover for Johnson when he has one of his shocking games.

- Play Henderson. Him, Gerrard and Lucas/Allen have looked solid (most of the time) and it frustrates me that most people can see this would be a better option than all-out attack in games like away to S'ton. Gerrard still has no discipline as a central midfielder, but playing Henderson allows him to get forward when he wants as Henderson can drop back, and also defends from the front of the midfield 3.

- Get Lucas back on form. Easier said than done obviously, but hopefully it is just a matter of time...

I'm not sure buying new centrebacks is going to solve the problem as the midfield has looked porous, and the centrebacks exposed, far too often. The problems often lie further up the pitch for us (although Agger, Skittles, Carra and Coates re-learning how to head the ball would be good).

[007.lankyguy]

How many games we've conceded three or more goals in every season since 04/05

Rafa
04/05: 3
05/06: 3
06/07: 6
07/08: 3
08/09: 4
09/10: 2

Hodgson/Kenny
10/11: 5

Kenny
11/12: 4

Obviously doesn't tell whole story, played more games under Rafa for example and also some of those games into extra time as well.

[Eeyore]

This is where Gerrard being an undroppable club legend is almost a bit of a problem. Thankfully he's been playing very well this season after a slow start (and then with thanks to Lucas and Henderson who freed him up), but I do think Rodgers has his hands tied to a degree in how he deals with him. Gerrard is bigger than Rodgers. Until he's ready to retire or willingly retract into the squad, I don't think Rodgers can plan for a starting XI that doesn't include him. Even if that means we're sticking to a starting XI that has to have his limitations (albeit, of course, he brings great positives too).

I think you make some good points. For me when Gerrard plays well we play well. That for me is the very reason a succession of managers have wanted to move Gerrard out of the centre of the pitch. Personally I think your CMs need to be solid consistent players who give you 7 or 8 out of ten week in week out.

Stevie for me is a mercurial genius who naturally fluctuates between periods of brilliance and periods where he loses interest and subconsciously switches off. Games against the top sides are were he is switched on and often irrepressible. Games against Southampton and the like are the games were he tends to relax and become over confident and a touch laxadasical.

The further up the pitch and the less defensive responsibility you players like that the better for me.

[Twelfth Man]

I think you make some good points. For me when Gerrard plays well we play well. That for me is the very reason a succession of managers have wanted to move Gerrard out of the centre of the pitch. Personally I think your CMs need to be solid consistent players who give you 7 or 8 out of ten week in week out.

Stevie for me is a mercurial genius who naturally fluctuates between periods of brilliance and periods where he loses interest and subconsciously switches off. Games against the top sides are were he is switched on and often irrepressible. Games against Southampton and the like are the games were he tends to relax and become over confident and a touch laxadasical.

The further up the pitch and the less defensive responsibility you players like that the better for me.

Recall Arsenal at home this season, the ball bounced off Gerrard in the CAM role leading to instant transition. Since then, BR, quite rightly has been reluctant to play him there. Of course it could of been a one off, a bad day at the office. He has been brilliant for us this season, perhaps his best form since peaking under Rafa. Even an in-form Stevie could not have rescued us at St. Mary's, too many other players had off days.