Author Topic: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table  (Read 23056 times)

Offline DanA

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2013, 01:10:04 am »
I fully agree with all of that, but that's getting away from my original statement, which is that Sterling would do well to look at how Coutinho plays (economically and efficiently - he doesn't hold onto the ball any more than he needs to), and look to at least match that in two years.

Coutinho isn't the panacea to our woes, by any means, and I wasn't really suggesting that. But he DOES have a lot of the qualities that the best players have, and he's playing more like a veteran than Sterling is. Sterling still has a naivete about him. And I'm talking about Coutinho as a player, not just for Liverpool. Inter are my Serie A team, so I've watched him a little bit over the last 3 years (didn't see him at Espanyol though). So for me, Sterling should look at how Coutinho plays and how he varies his touches on the ball, and learn from it.

I read veteran, match ready now and so forth and that was the bit that didn't ring true. He's ahead of Sterling in terms of development but IMO he himself has a long way to go. My feeling is Coutinho at this stage should be a regular in the team but not always a starter. Compare that to Sterling who I think should be a regular in the match day team but more often than not used as fresh legs coming off the bench in the same way he was used against Norwich.

The comparison in terms of pitch time would be Coutinho = Benyoun (08/09 season) vs Sterling = El Zhar (08/09 season)
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2013, 01:21:07 am »
I read veteran, match ready now and so forth and that was the bit that didn't ring true. He's ahead of Sterling in terms of development but IMO he himself has a long way to go. My feeling is Coutinho at this stage should be a regular in the team but not always a starter. Compare that to Sterling who I think should be a regular in the match day team but more often than not used as fresh legs coming off the bench in the same way he was used against Norwich.

The comparison in terms of pitch time would be Coutinho = Benyoun (08/09 season) vs Sterling = El Zhar (08/09 season)

Yeah I would agree with that. When I say "Veteran" I don't really mean it in the sense of a Carragher or Suarez (i.e. in an absolute sense). I mean it in a relative sense, i.e. he's already played a lot of first team games for someone so young, and has done it in 4 different countries now at this stage. That's a lot of movement for a 20 year old.

Lots of room for improvement for sure, but he's more match-ready than Sterling, and for me his all-round game is better. Which is what my point was - Sterling could do worse than to look at how Coutinho plays. 
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2013, 06:42:36 am »
Thank fuck the manager didn't pay any attention to my preferred starting lineup. Suarez  had an excellent game, as did Lucas, Johnson and Gerrard. All of whom I would have rested with Zenit round the corner.

Pleased as punch with the result and I don't think we were helped that much by Laudrup naming in him naming a weakened - but by no means weak - side. We outplayed them in every respect and were absolutely all over them. We made it difficult for Swansea to get out of their own half (bar maybe the first 10 or so minutes) but like the game against West Brom we just battered them, this time with a result worthy of our dominance.



Was Sturridge trying too hard at the end there?

In what sense? On a whole though, no I don't think Sturridge was trying too hard. He is a player with more flair than most 'clinical' strikers but his pace, movement and trickery does create a lot of space for the players around him.

There was a suggestion that he was a selfish type of player prior to him coming to Anfield, but I've seen nothing of that sort. He created one goal, scored another and could have had two pens (the second one maybe a little bit more dubious than the first). On top of that, had he been a little bit more clinical, he could easily have had two more.

He and Suarez look like a great strike partnership already.

Does he look like he enjoys his football?

Yes, to me he certainly looks like he is loving life at Anfield. A team with some pretty decent quality all round and him being played in his favoured position - life doesn't get much better for a player who has been forced to play anyone but his favoured position for the majority of his career.

He does seem rather stern with himself - a point which I noticed when he spurned that 1v1 and missed that relatively easy header from < 6 yards. But I think he knows that he can improve and the only person that can drive him forward that extra mile is himself. Seems like a man who is determined to succeed and become the best player he can be. Liverpool FC can only benefit from having players with that kind of mentality.

Coutinho. Whaddya think?

To be honest - too early to say. I've liked what I've seen so far and that includes the brief cameo against WBA last week. Nice to see the lad cap off his full debut with a goal though.

He seems surprisingly mature and unawed by the occasion although I would say that he needs to work a bit harder defensively. I fear that at this point he may be found out by teams that are a bit more relentless going down his flank but to be fair to him he really did not have to contend with much in this game. Time will tell in this respect.

Going forward though he seems a pretty intelligent player for a boy of 20. Movement is really good and seems to have good positional sense. He missed that one from Sturridge (the penalty that should have been) and I wonder if we had started Raheem or Hendo whether they would even have been there.

He clearly doesn't lack confidence and those little dips of the shoulder before accelerating past a defender is something we have missed. Plays with his head up and I think is potentially the kind of creative player we need in the final third. Jury is still out but looking good thus far.

Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2013, 09:12:13 am »
It was a great performance regardless of anything Swansea did or didn't do. We started well and scored our goal and never looked backed, in contrast with WBA and Villa games where we were on top but never scored and lost the game.

Though we won 5-0 I hope Rodgers privately chews into Suarez and Sturridge for their profligacy in front of goal. On another day we may have well failed to win that game despite the chances we created.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2013, 09:13:11 am »
Coutinho. Whaddya think?
He seems surprisingly mature and unawed by the occasion although I would say that he needs to work a bit harder defensively. I fear that at this point he may be found out by teams that are a bit more relentless going down his flank but to be fair to him he really did not have to contend with much in this game. Time will tell in this respect.

If you compare with others we've played in that position this season (mainly Sterling & Suso), his defensive effort was a real step up and probably helped us dominate. May well be found out, but good early signs imho

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2013, 09:32:14 am »
Good performance, and you can see the difference it makes against 'weaker' sides at home when we get the first goal. The pressure is off, they enjoy their football, they let loose and you can sense more and more goals coming.

When we don't get that first goal, the game is so different as we've seen against both Villa and West Brom. I think mentally, because of last season and dominating so many games against weaker opposition but not winning, they feel 'Oh here we go again, we won't win this' which is why Stevie had such a resigned look on his face when he missed the pen.

What to say about Sturridge? Fantastic player, he's almost got the lot. I love his attitude, I love that he looks pissed off when he doesn't score or doesn't get passed to. I think he enjoys himself, but he's got the attitude that he hasn't done his part if he hasn't scored. I've actually been shocked by a few aspects of his game. I had him down as a quick striker with a powerful shot and a good finisher. Completely underestimated his hold-up play or how skillful he is, how quick his feet are in tight spots.

Coutinho looks a really intelligent, clever player. His goal was a bit scuffed, but I remember Suarez first goal against Stoke was a bit of a fluffer. His movement to get there, and the little shimmy to work the ball onto his right foot was quality. Cannot wait for him to get proper match fitness and settled in the team. Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho will tear quite a few teams to shreds.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2013, 10:15:14 am »
He did indeed switch to the left, but he still tucked in during the run of play while on the right. Look at his positioning for the first penalty for an example - he is pinched in, then cycles his movement to the outside of Suarez to offer width and support.

The average positions are only handy ways to look at the positioning of the players. You have to read the play and the roles of the players too while the game is going on. Coutinho held a more wide position in the run of play, Downing came in and spread out. This allowed Johnson to overlap (the trigger for the overlap is the space created by the winger/mid cutting in to create space).

Here are the areas of his touches on the ball. Note that the majority of them are in the outside and inside right positions:



Of course, but it was watching the game and reading the play that prompted me to question the description of Downing as 'tucked in' and check the stats/average position information. Any wide player - particularly an inverted one - will cut in on some specific passages of play, but I think that is somewhat different from a 'tucked in' player, which is more like what Henderson had been doing in previous games (or Houghton did in the 80s). Indeed the second graphic shows that almost twice as many touches are 'outside right' than 'inside right'. Similarly watching the game and looking at Johnson's positions indicates that he 'underlaps' (if that word makes sense for cutting inside the wide player rather than only going down the line beyond him) as often as he overlaps. It's quite flexible and they work pretty well together. As mentioned on the Downing thread though, I'd love to see how Suso looks with Sturridge ahead of him to benefit from him cutting inside and playing those little through balls.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 11:42:53 am by redmark »
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Offline wah00ey

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2013, 10:25:48 am »
If you're going to miss a few easyish chances then tha't the type of game to get them out of your system.  The fact that we created so many chances, and good chances that should really have led to goals, is great to see.

Lots of positives to take from that game, many of which have already been listed here so I won't repeat them.  We didin't learn much new from the game though - we really are extremely good when things go our way and the situation allows.  I'm now looking forward to coming into one of these round tables when we've been 1 or 2 down and under the cosh and have managed to turn it around and get a result.  If that's to be a long way off then I hope all of the in-between games are ones like the Swansea one!

I'm off to watch the highlights again.  Luis' goal was sublime and has been underrated a bit in here and in the press.  If Looney had done that we'd never hear the end of it.
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2013, 10:40:53 am »
If you're going to miss a few easyish chances then tha't the type of game to get them out of your system.  The fact that we created so many chances, and good chances that should really have led to goals, is great to see.

Lots of positives to take from that game, many of which have already been listed here so I won't repeat them.  We didin't learn much new from the game though - we really are extremely good when things go our way and the situation allows.  I'm now looking forward to coming into one of these round tables when we've been 1 or 2 down and under the cosh and have managed to turn it around and get a result.  If that's to be a long way off then I hope all of the in-between games are ones like the Swansea one!

I'm off to watch the highlights again.  Luis' goal was sublime and has been underrated a bit in here and in the press.  If Looney had done that we'd never hear the end of it.

Pretty much it in a nutshell for the 'normal fan'. I'm sure Brendan/PoP and other 'students' of the game will have seen more though.
But for me it just confirms even more what we already know.
I particularly enjoy the fact that if a team goes toe to toe with us we'll tear them a new arse, no matter who they are, we've done it to the champions, twice, champions elect, for a good portion of the 180 mins we've played them. Imagine where we'd be right now if we had RVP as our striker, or indeed secured Sturridge in August.
For me though, we need to do most of our work on dealing with teams that get in our faces and try to stop us playing.
And I'm sorry, but the few that can't see any improvement over last year ??  Pffft !!!!
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2013, 12:38:01 pm »
Pretty much it in a nutshell for the 'normal fan'. I'm sure Brendan/PoP and other 'students' of the game will have seen more though.
But for me it just confirms even more what we already know.
I particularly enjoy the fact that if a team goes toe to toe with us we'll tear them a new arse, no matter who they are, we've done it to the champions, twice, champions elect, for a good portion of the 180 mins we've played them. Imagine where we'd be right now if we had RVP as our striker, or indeed secured Sturridge in August.
For me though, we need to do most of our work on dealing with teams that get in our faces and try to stop us playing.
And I'm sorry, but the few that can't see any improvement over last year ??  Pffft !!!!

Er, get over yourself.  This is a thread for discussing the Swansea game, not publicly giving yourself a blow job.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2013, 01:29:29 pm »
Firstly, having both Sturridge and Suarez meant that the Swansea back two had marking issues, and the mobility of the two Liverpool forwards was always going to cause disruption to Swansea’s defence, no matter who they played (Williams might have offered more leadership, but he would still have had the problem of who to track and how far). This created space throughout the attacking third, and allowed for some of the good movement from Coutinho and Johnson, as well as giving Gerrard free targets to aim at.

Secondly, Gerrard’s role as an in-between player between the defensive midfield and the forwards forces the corresponding defensive midfielder from the other team to push up on him to press. When this happens, it creates more space for Suarez to play in. If this gets corrected, and the defensive mid drops back again, then Gerrard has the space to play and pick his passes. In the end, the opposition DM gets caught in the middle of those two positions, and Liverpool gets the best of both worlds. This only works if we have a target to play to as an option, like Sturridge, and we saw that against WBA when they pushed on Gerrard, but the space Suarez had to play in didn’t leave a target to play to when the shorter passes weren’t on. Against Swansea, with Sturridge up front and Coutinho finding his feet, it worked a treat, and Gerrard was able to exert a great influence on the game.

I think these two points - and the relationship between them - is absolutely spot on and key to how we've played well, and how we will play well in this system. Suarez as a 'false 9' gives him licence to roam and find his own space; but as a '7' (with a real 9 ahead), he does so firstly with the defence having a very effective striker to think about, and with that very effective striker as a passing option. While Suarez and Sturridge certainly need to get used to each other and trust each other (in that one isn't going to be significantly more 'selfish' than the other), this should follow as they realise that the other amplifies their own effectiveness, in occupying defenders and that they do have some of the natural abilities and tendencies that should assist them 'gelling' - pace, movement, an eye for a clever pass, quick feet and close control. What they have to guard against is that both also has a tendency to shoot early 'on sight', when it might not always be the best option, but certainly should remain an option. That shouldn't be coached out of them.

Gerrard later, when work allows.
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Offline n00bert

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2013, 01:59:04 pm »
If you compare with others we've played in that position this season (mainly Sterling & Suso), his defensive effort was a real step up and probably helped us dominate. May well be found out, but good early signs imho

Agree somewhat. I think that Suso and Sterling both need to also work on their defensive responsibilities although I have seen Raheem put in a couple of very good tackles. Most important is not allowing the fullback to ghost past you and then not track back.

I'm not saying that Coutinho at the moment is necessarily bad  just that I did notice that he didn't track back all that much but that could be orders from the manager considering we weren't being pushed particularly hard.

Offline L666KOP

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2013, 02:06:09 pm »
Er, get over yourself.  This is a thread for discussing the Swansea game, not publicly giving yourself a blow job.

Really?
That's what you read into it.

You need a fucking lie down lad.
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2013, 02:17:24 pm »
Just watched a replay of the game and there are worse ways to spend an hour and a half!

These round-table threads have been an excellent in  analysing the games once emotions have died down a bit ( ) so I' ll just agree with one of the above comments wholeheartedly.

What to say about Sturridge? Fantastic player, he's almost got the lot. I love his attitude, I love that he looks pissed off when he doesn't score or doesn't get passed to. I think he enjoys himself, but he's got the attitude that he hasn't done his part if he hasn't scored. I've actually been shocked by a few aspects of his game. I had him down as a quick striker with a powerful shot and a good finisher. Completely underestimated his hold-up play or how skillful he is, how quick his feet are in tight spots.



Prior to his arrival - my view of Sturridge was, as the above (with the memory of the odd stepover). Like the above we've seen

Someone who can hold the ball up very well.
Can see and execute a pass.
Has wonderful quick feet and control.

Number of occasions he's dragged the ball around with his studs and completely foxed the defender. I know it's only half a dozen appearences so far but he is looking a complete striker.

A downside that others have mentioned is that the difference he has clearly made only emphasizes that we need another striker of this quality in the squad for next season. When we need cover/rotation for Lucas, a New CB and a LB (unless Robinson comes good) then we're asking an awful lot of the summer's transfer budget!
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2013, 02:20:40 pm »
Suarez
Awesome player - that's obvious. I said in the post-match thread that he's doing the same link up with Sturridge a few times in different games, which is so encouraging. He drops deep in the inside left channel, almost near the halfway line to pick up the ball and releases Sturridge who is pulling off to the right (as LFC look at it) of the other central defender. Suarez is brilliant at picking up both lose balls and receiving them from the midfield. He's got a great eye for a quick pass too. He's never really had this kind of opportunity to be the link man at LFC having played either up front by himself or with Andy Carroll to play it too. Another string to his bow, really impressive. Gald he got his goal, which he took with such wonderful ease on his left foot.

Sturridge
Very poor miss from Downing's cross, which was disappointing because that early goal would've made the performance all the more impressive and it would have been a nice goal. (Another whatcouldhavebeen assist for Stewie) Made a couple of bad decisions in the box thereafter as it was playing his mind, but in reality, he was fucking clattered by Bartley and should've had a pen, absolutely no doubt. I think that pen really got us our first one, which although it was a foul, is not the type Suarez usually gets. It was a classic case of evening-up from the ref who tried to let the first one go hoping Coutinho would slot it home, making it irrelevant. When he didn't he found himself caught between a rock and hard place and just bottled it. Delighted he got the goal his game deserved with the second penno.

His quick feet in tight spaces was a joy to watch, he can get the ball into positions to get a pass off in tight spaces on the left touchline (a couple of times) and that dummy to play the right foot pass to Enrique for his goal was a delight. It was such an unusual but deft bit of play - loved it!

Coutinho
Considering that we were all over them after 10 or so, everything seemed to come down the other flank. Put in a good tackle at one point which I completely expected him to shirk and which I think the crowd did too - he got a cheer for it! Gerrard released him a couple of times and you can see he also has pace as well as feints. Get the impression he is not a left winger but on the other hand, was delighted that he was getting in at the far post (although his first miss was pretty bad). He also took his goal with consumate ease. He had a lot of time, you got the impression he knew exactly how he was going to finish, like he'd done that particular feint and shoot back to the left many times in his career. Good start and great to get a goal, but not much of a test so far.

Swansea
The second half makes it look worse than the first half did. We still had to hockey them, they weren't kicking it into their own net.  Glad for us to score some goals before Thursday. Not too worried about what we learn from it. Plenty of teams don't bother turning up at Old Trafford. If anything it's a good sign that Anfield is becoming a place are slightly more cowed by, rather than a place where they know we will become anxious and fraught at.

Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2013, 03:01:03 pm »
To be fair, though, that is the standard for all teams - 10 shots to get 1 goal. It's known as the Reep Ratio and has been found to be fairly consistent throughout the leagues and the years. Teams who score more than the Reep Ratio are the most efficient (United are doing brilliantly against it this season), while teams who score less than they should probably need to buy more goalscorers of quality (like us, for example). So I wouldn't be too aghast at that stat. We had 10 shots on target and scored 5 goals, so we played at a 50% strike rate for shots on target. 35 shots in total and 5 goals was actually a good return (for once!). We need to make that more consistent though. It would be very exciting if we had that one more extra goalscorer to spread the goals around. Next season, for that reason, is already something to look forward to, I think.

Actually had time to read up about the Reep Ratio today and it led me to thinking, has anyone built upon this type of analysis by then breaking this down to the number of shots it takes to score the team's first goal versus the second, third, etc..? The websites I looked at didn't examine this route, and a natural assumption would be that as you scored more then you'd get more confident with a virtuous circle.

Obviously whilst any striker scoring will in most scenarios boost their confidence and likeliness to score should a good chance come along, I realise that scoring the team's fourth in a 4-0 win is completely different to equalising to make it 4-4. So, obviously the ultimate breakdown of this analysis would do it not just by the goal count but also be filterable on the scoreline at the time.

What the above breaks down to is in our case, we did pretty well against the Reep Ratio by the end of the game but how well would we have done against one measuring against each goal? In other words, do we take more than the average number of shots to get our first goal compared to the best teams, but then for goals two and three we get closer and by four goals or more we might be ahead? Anecdotal evidence would suggest that we struggle to get that first goal and we seem to be snatching for it (confidence being low maybe) and thus we take a lot more shots to score than most but once we get it then we gain the confidence and once we get going then we actually beat the curve.

In this case we had 35 shots and scored 5. What was the shot count total after we scored the first goal, how many then to get the second? Would be good to see in a cricket score fashion, e.g. 12/1, 20/2, 26/3, 32/4, 35/5. I think it would fascinating to see whether the above supposition is true or not, stats aren't the be all and end all but they do give a good insight into things that we otherwise would never have considered either relevant or likely.

Offline paddysour

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2013, 03:03:06 pm »
Very interesting line of thought John. I'd like to see that myself

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2013, 03:26:14 pm »
JohnHobbes -

Here is an image from Whoscored.com that shows the shot frequency. It's an interesting slant you have, but I'm not qualified to delve into the statistics of it - Prof or Dan A or JP-65 or someone will be better at that. I just apply them :D



I think it would be worth looking into.

It's also interesting that on an individual level, for top players their shots on target per game average out at about 3 shots per game, I think, and their scoring rate if they are good is 1 in 3 shots. There are lots of nice little measurements like that which are relevant to players that can show that some are better than average, of course, but also that some players aren't as bad as people would believe. That's a different topic though :D
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2013, 03:50:04 pm »
Of course, but it was watching the game and reading the play that prompted me to question the description of Downing as 'tucked in' and check the stats/average position information. Any wide player - particularly an inverted one - will cut in on some specific passages of play, but I think that is somewhat different from a 'tucked in' player, which is more like what Henderson had been doing in previous games (or Houghton did in the 80s). Indeed the second graphic shows that almost twice as many touches are 'outside right' than 'inside right'. Similarly watching the game and looking at Johnson's positions indicates that he 'underlaps' (if that word makes sense for cutting inside the wide player rather than only going down the line beyond him) as often as he overlaps. It's quite flexible and they work pretty well together. As mentioned on the Downing thread though, I'd love to see how Suso looks with Sturridge ahead of him to benefit from him cutting inside and playing those little through balls.

You make a great point, and I probably would have been more accurate to call Downing an "inverted winger" or something more precise than saying "tucked in" for sure. Also, good points about Johnson. It begs a question, though, which is a topic all by itself, but I'll go over it a little here - what actually is our system? It started off in August being 2-3-2-3, as traditional and as rigid as you can get; then it morphed through a few Back 3 experiments into a 4-2-3-1, and then with the form of Henderson and the introduction of Sturridge into a lopsided 4-4-2. Now with Coutinho available, and a lot more mobility, it's like we've settled on mobility rather than a set attacking shape and positions. With this in mind, I think it's easier to break the team down into roles, and for that I think we have two key factors - the shape and roles of the team, and the spine and reference points.

The shape and roles of the team could probably be broken up into 4 units - the Keeper, The back 5, Gerrard, and the front 4. The back 5 always play in a 2-3 formation, with the fullbacks pushing up, and Lucas holding the central space. Then we have the front four, which takes on various guises, but if Sturridge and Coutinho (and by extension, Assaidi) are any indicators of future buys, then mobility rather than position is the key to the front 4, and Sturridge will be the main reference point. This makes positioning of the players less static and harder to track (for both the opposition defenders and the Opta boffins :D). Then there is Gerrard, who knits the two units together (and why it is important to manage his successor). So essentially we play a 5-1-4 shape, even if the formation is written differently, and where the "4" move according to the flow of attack, but they move from their position/zone, so it's not all chaotic:



However, in order for the fluidity of the team to be effective, it needs to be structured (just like Jazz improvisation needs a chord progression to "hold onto"). The structure for that mobility seems to be the spine of the team, with three clear reference points - Reina (to recycle the ball), Lucas (to hold the midfield together) and Sturridge (to give a target to play to, and to offer penetration and a breakout pass option). This is the spine of the team, and we can see the effect that is created when one of these reference points is missing (Jones is a good traditional goalkeeper, but our possession suffers as he's not as good with the ball at his feet and he can't switch the play as well as Reina can); Lucas protects the central area and offers a midfield out ball, and when he doesn't play, the midfield is a lot less solid and we suffer in the gaps created. Sturridge we all know changes our attack completely, and holds up play, plays off the shoulder, has quick little touches, and gives the midfield an option to play to when the short pass is pressured.


It is no surprise then that some of our better performances have come when all three players have been on the field, maintaining that solid spine. When one or more are missing, there are clear gaps in the way we play (although we have also played well without them, for sure).

So I think that you are correct that average positions can be skewed, but I also think we are starting to play a new way, and a more mobile way, and we may have to reduce talk of attacking positions with this Liverpool team when they get in full swing, because I think it will be as good, if not better, as any good performance we had under the first 6 months of Kenny's second reign. In that case, movement, rather than position, will be the main talking point, I think? If so, then we will all be clearly able to see what kinds of attackers we should be looking at, and who might be surplus to requirements?
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Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2013, 04:11:27 pm »
JohnHobbes -

Here is an image from Whoscored.com that shows the shot frequency. It's an interesting slant you have, but I'm not qualified to delve into the statistics of it - Prof or Dan A or JP-65 or someone will be better at that. I just apply them :D



I think it would be worth looking into.

It's also interesting that on an individual level, for top players their shots on target per game average out at about 3 shots per game, I think, and their scoring rate if they are good is 1 in 3 shots. There are lots of nice little measurements like that which are relevant to players that can show that some are better than average, of course, but also that some players aren't as bad as people would believe. That's a different topic though :D

Thanks. Didn't know about whoscored.com and looks a very useful resource. I guess the main problem for any such analysis is whether the data is already present somewhere where it can then be easily crunched for this purpose. I suspect it isn't and is unlikely to be done in the future either which will mean this will probably end up as a theoretical exercise.

I suspect this might well eat at me and I'll end up spending time, when I should be doing something else, to do some amateur analysis on this! As you say, player stats are just as important and probably again would be interesting view within such analysis. Ah for a research grant :)

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2013, 04:15:16 pm »
Really?
That's what you read into it.

You need a fucking lie down lad.

Is English your second language? That clearly labels me a "normal" fan whereas you and others are able to offer a deeper insight into the game and see improvements us mere mortals cannot perceive. If you meant it otherwise then it's poorly worded.
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2013, 04:28:23 pm »
Is English your second language? That clearly labels me a "normal" fan whereas you and others are able to offer a deeper insight into the game and see improvements us mere mortals cannot perceive. If you meant it otherwise then it's poorly worded.

Ha,

I included PoP/Brendan as 'students', then ended the sentence, I started another one and spoke of 'normal' fans, and spoke of my views.

I was actually agreeing with you, but for some reason you went all 'precious'.

 :wave
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2013, 05:26:49 pm »
Ha,

I included PoP/Brendan as 'students', then ended the sentence, I started another one and spoke of 'normal' fans, and spoke of my views.

I was actually agreeing with you, but for some reason you went all 'precious'.

 :wave
 
Apologies but having re-read your post a couple of times I still can't see how it's not patronising at best.
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2013, 06:10:59 pm »
... to look at how Coutinho plays (economically and efficiently - he doesn't hold onto the ball any more than he needs to), and look to at least match that in two years.

Coutinho isn't the panacea to our woes, by any means, and I wasn't really suggesting that. But he DOES have a lot of the qualities that the best players have, and he's playing more like a veteran than Sterling is.

That´s typical brasilian football school though. It is a quality of a any great player, but overall one of the main differences between brasilian football and the rest of the world. The ball is always moving, players attacking spaces and passing the ball on quicker so the opponent will ALWAYS be too late. It´s also the nature of the first touch with would be never one dimensional in brasilian football, instead they always know what to do next BEFORE receiving the ball while having head up all the time at any speed.

It´s an endless discussion though... where european teams have to be drilled tactically it´s about playing "the brasilian way" within a long established tactical frame work for brasilian players. As their biggest weakness is lacking overall discipline their advantage in passing and moving often gets lost recently.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 06:12:43 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2013, 08:10:45 pm »
That´s typical brasilian football school though. It is a quality of a any great player, but overall one of the main differences between brasilian football and the rest of the world. The ball is always moving, players attacking spaces and passing the ball on quicker so the opponent will ALWAYS be too late. It´s also the nature of the first touch with would be never one dimensional in brasilian football, instead they always know what to do next BEFORE receiving the ball while having head up all the time at any speed.

It´s an endless discussion though... where european teams have to be drilled tactically it´s about playing "the brasilian way" within a long established tactical frame work for brasilian players. As their biggest weakness is lacking overall discipline their advantage in passing and moving often gets lost recently.

Yep, definitely. You can see the four principles of Brazilian football in that whole performance from Coutinho - Ball on the ground, Switch the Play, Minimal Touches and Diagonal pass and move. Looking forward to seeing a lot more performances from him
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2013, 08:26:01 pm »
After the first 5 or so minutes, it really was just the one way traffic. Like many have said, similar to previous games but again like many have said, we got the goal to see us forward.
There is really very little to say at this point because when we win games, we are winning them in the same fashion for the most part...get a goal and trash the opposition.
In the league, the last time we won a close game was probably West Ham. Which isnt a bad thing but shows you that we have a huge difference between our peaks and valleys.


Sturridge is ridiculously good and it is shocking how much he has assimilated himself into our team. No pre season with us...very few games for Chelsea and the guy has played for us like he has been playing for us for years.
Imagine what he will look like next season with Suarez.
When you watch other teams, do they ever seem to generate as many chances as our forwards do? Even when Torres was flying or Fowler...did they ever have as many chances as Suarez and Sturridge seem to have on a game to game basis.
Suarez had 4 gems in mid week and then has the same amount the next game. Sturridge really, could have had 5 on his own.


Coutinho is what everyone knew/thought he was. There will be obvious flaws in execution that come with being 20 but he is another one that very easily could have had a couple goals and an assist. Such is the ease in which he moves with and without the ball, it will be a nightmare for defenders because they have to concentrate their efforts and #15 and #7...so Coutinho will be ghosting quite often.


I think it was the best game Lucas has had since he came back from injury. He was nipping the ball back with frequency and ease...plus, like others stated, his passing was much more efficient.
We talk about guys getting settled within the team structure but I was thinking the other day that we all take a Gerrard-Lucas duo for granted when in actuality, they have barely played together as a duo.
They clearly fit together but even they must be learning things about each other that they didnt really know beforehand.


As for Swanseas team...this is the PL and I dont care who you put out there, you still have to play well to beat a team. If we lost, we would have been trashed so the game still counts all the same and we turned it on in every department.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 08:27:53 pm by b_joseph »

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Re: Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2013, 08:41:45 pm »
Apologies but having re-read your post a couple of times I still can't see how it's not patronising at best.
English must be YOUR second language then as its quite clear to me what he meant

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2013, 08:58:36 pm »
English must be YOUR second language then as its quite clear to me what he meant
So there's another way of reading the following, "Pretty much it in a nutshell for the 'normal fan'. I'm sure Brendan/PoP and other 'students' of the game will have seen more though."?

In which case you're wrong, English isn't my second language, it's my fifth at best.  FFS.

 :butt
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:05:26 pm by wah00ey »
Look up "Odious" in the dictionary and Martin Samuel is the given definition.  Call me Klopphooey please.

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Re: Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2013, 09:14:19 pm »
So there's another way of reading the following, "Pretty much it in a nutshell for the 'normal fan'. I'm sure Brendan/PoP and other 'students' of the game will have seen more though."?

In which case you're wrong, English isn't my second language, it's my fifth ay best.  FFS.

 :butt
well with a little bit of hard work ,you'll soon make it your first :P

It's the next line that you should be looking at where he agrees with you, I think he just meant the manager types that look at every single detail a few times over would probably have seen something different that they can take away from the game

Offline wah00ey

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2013, 09:20:46 pm »
well with a little bit of hard work ,you'll soon make it your first :P

It's the next line that you should be looking at where he agrees with you, I think he just meant the manager types that look at every single detail a few times over would probably have seen something different that they can take away from the game

Well I'm one who's not seeing any improvements in our play over last year either so the last sentence irks me as well.  Actually, that's not entirely true, I do when Sturridge has played (with the notable exeption of Oldham).

Anyway, not really the right thread for this, is it?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:26:57 pm by wah00ey »
Look up "Odious" in the dictionary and Martin Samuel is the given definition.  Call me Klopphooey please.

Offline Motty

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Re: Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2013, 09:28:57 pm »
Well I'm one who's not seeing any improvements in our play over last year either so the last sentence irks me as well.  Actually, that's not entirely true, I do when Sturridge has played (with the notable exeption of Oldham).
Id like to think that if he had signed in August we not only would have more points but there would be more confidence in our play after getting better results up to now

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Re: Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2013, 09:51:19 pm »
English must be YOUR second language then as its quite clear to me what he meant

Cheers Shady, I was doubting myself for a while.  :)

well with a little bit of hard work ,you'll soon make it your first :P

It's the next line that you should be looking at where he agrees with you, I think he just meant the manager types that look at every single detail a few times over would probably have seen something different that they can take away from the game


Correct, those that have access to the software, the time, and the inclination to do so, more than likely will have. I am a 'normal fan' I see what I see. We did a 'Norwich' on them.

Well I'm one who's not seeing any improvements in our play over last year either so the last sentence irks me as well.  Actually, that's not entirely true, I do when Sturridge has played (with the notable exeption of Oldham).

Anyway, not really the right thread for this, is it?

No it's not, you're correct, so we'll leave it as it is, you misunderstood me. I'm not patronising, I'm not in a position to be, and if I was PoP , or another 'student of the game' would soon tie me in knots. :lickin
But I guess the real issue is that you don't agree with my opinion we've got better ? I do, and there are a few more of us as well, but you're not alone with your opinion.
Anyways, I'm off now to try and achieve what should really be anatomically impossible, and suck my own knob.
 ;)
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2013, 10:14:05 pm »
Because the few touches he had were all quality touches, he released the ball early, moved, and looked to get it back, and he was physically strong enough to hold off challenges. Sterling right now holds the ball too long, gets knocked off the ball easily, and doesn't shoot enough. I've been watching Coutinho a lot longer than he's been a Liverpool player

Seriously though, Coutinho is very economic with his play, and it's something Sterling needs to learn. He's playing against men now, rather than Academy players, so he has to be more clever in his game. Coutinho has played for Inter in the harsh physical world of Serie A, so his education was more precise. Sterling sometimes looks like a kid playing against men (which he technically is), whereas Coutinho looked like a man playing against men (despite being only 2 years older than Sterling).

Just less than a page
I think you are being a little harsh on Sterling. For an eighteen year old, he uses his body quite well, and is not shrugged of the ball as easily as you suggest. Yes, recently his performances have not been that great and at Zenit he had a tough game as he was penned back on defensive duty for much of the game, but at the start of the season we saw some excellent performances, in fact the way he slotted in straight into the first team from the Academy was remarkable. He didn't look out of place tactically or physically. Swansea gave us a lot of time and space on the ball. Lets wait and see how Coutinho performs against sides that press hard. Having Coutinho should provide motivation and competition for Sterling, hopefully both being at a similar level should spur each of them on. I don't think they are as far apart as you suggest.
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2013, 10:23:14 pm »
I think you are being a little harsh on Sterling. For an eighteen year old, he uses his body quite well, and is not shrugged of the ball as easily as you suggest. Yes, recently his performances have not been that great and at Zenit he had a tough game as he was penned back on defensive duty for much of the game, but at the start of the season we saw some excellent performances, in fact the way he slotted in straight into the first team from the Academy was remarkable. He didn't look out of place tactically or physically. Swansea gave us a lot of time and space on the ball. Lets wait and see how Coutinho performs against sides that press hard. Having Coutinho should provide motivation and competition for Sterling, hopefully both being at a similar level should spur each of them on. I don't think they are as far apart as you suggest.

I didn't mean to sound like I was being harsh on Sterling - he's certainly a talent - but I wanted to point out more the maturity of Coutinho's performances. Again, I'm not basing my view solely on his performances for Liverpool, but also having watched him for Inter. The main thrust of my comparison was that Sterling could look at where Coutinho is now, and use that to spur him on, as you say, to keep improving and not rest on his laurels. Certainly, I wasn trying to downplay Sterling's talent; rather I was emphasising Coutinho's ability and reading of the game as something to encourage Sterling over the next two years (having said that, if I was sent to scout Liverpool/Inter with a view to signing either one of the two, Coutinho would stand out more. Some people might disagree though. I'm certainly not of the opinion that I have the definitive view of the matter, but from what I see, Coutinho right now offers more as a first team player, but Sterling can and will meet that standard when he is the age that Coutinho is now).
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2013, 10:36:32 pm »
We were pretty good on Sunday. I was very much worried. It seems that whenever the chance of CL qualification looms, we mess it up and go on a winless run but when there seems to be little hope, we play pretty well.

After the 2nd goal, they were truly out and started making sloppy passes without being under any pressure.

The one thing I noticed was (I can only watch games in TV) Agger moving across to Carra's position and stifling the incoming attacks and immediately trying to set us up on the counter. Are we intentionally trying to exploit Agger's pace to move across, also his recovery speed, in turn allowing time for Carra to cover for any attacks that go beyond Agger. We were pretty together, though I don't know if it is intentional and we will make use of it more in the coming matches. This pattern of play, I did not see when Skrtel and Agger were playing together.

One more thing was Reina though pretty good, is not commanding the box as he used to (till 2010 season). Also the full backs not pressing the wingers crossing the ball. We were seeing lots of drilled crosses coming into the bus. But Carra was there, snuffing them out. I don't know why the FBs try to come in and narrow the passage of play, when the intention should have been to block crosses first.

Can someone like Phase Of Play or anyone tell us something more about this?

Also the reason why Swansea got very little space to pass about it in our half might well have been due our wide forwards relentlessly harrying and pressing the Swansea player making the pass. There was so much interchange of positions, movement, energy in our attacking play. Can this be sustained till the end of the season, as we usually tend to have a very good end-of-season run in Rafa's days?
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Offline redmark

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Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2013, 10:43:21 pm »
You make a great point, and I probably would have been more accurate to call Downing an "inverted winger" or something more precise than saying "tucked in" for sure. Also, good points about Johnson. It begs a question, though, which is a topic all by itself, but I'll go over it a little here - what actually is our system? It started off in August being 2-3-2-3, as traditional and as rigid as you can get; then it morphed through a few Back 3 experiments into a 4-2-3-1, and then with the form of Henderson and the introduction of Sturridge into a lopsided 4-4-2. Now with Coutinho available, and a lot more mobility, it's like we've settled on mobility rather than a set attacking shape and positions. With this in mind, I think it's easier to break the team down into roles, and for that I think we have two key factors - the shape and roles of the team, and the spine and reference points.

The shape and roles of the team could probably be broken up into 4 units - the Keeper, The back 5, Gerrard, and the front 4. The back 5 always play in a 2-3 formation, with the fullbacks pushing up, and Lucas holding the central space. Then we have the front four, which takes on various guises, but if Sturridge and Coutinho (and by extension, Assaidi) are any indicators of future buys, then mobility rather than position is the key to the front 4, and Sturridge will be the main reference point. This makes positioning of the players less static and harder to track (for both the opposition defenders and the Opta boffins :D). Then there is Gerrard, who knits the two units together (and why it is important to manage his successor). So essentially we play a 5-1-4 shape, even if the formation is written differently, and where the "4" move according to the flow of attack, but they move from their position/zone, so it's not all chaotic:



However, in order for the fluidity of the team to be effective, it needs to be structured (just like Jazz improvisation needs a chord progression to "hold onto"). The structure for that mobility seems to be the spine of the team, with three clear reference points - Reina (to recycle the ball), Lucas (to hold the midfield together) and Sturridge (to give a target to play to, and to offer penetration and a breakout pass option). This is the spine of the team, and we can see the effect that is created when one of these reference points is missing (Jones is a good traditional goalkeeper, but our possession suffers as he's not as good with the ball at his feet and he can't switch the play as well as Reina can); Lucas protects the central area and offers a midfield out ball, and when he doesn't play, the midfield is a lot less solid and we suffer in the gaps created. Sturridge we all know changes our attack completely, and holds up play, plays off the shoulder, has quick little touches, and gives the midfield an option to play to when the short pass is pressured.


It is no surprise then that some of our better performances have come when all three players have been on the field, maintaining that solid spine. When one or more are missing, there are clear gaps in the way we play (although we have also played well without them, for sure).

So I think that you are correct that average positions can be skewed, but I also think we are starting to play a new way, and a more mobile way, and we may have to reduce talk of attacking positions with this Liverpool team when they get in full swing, because I think it will be as good, if not better, as any good performance we had under the first 6 months of Kenny's second reign. In that case, movement, rather than position, will be the main talking point, I think? If so, then we will all be clearly able to see what kinds of attackers we should be looking at, and who might be surplus to requirements?

I agree with this analysis - almost unreservedly. Two points arising from it which are probably related: firstly (and hence the 'almost' :)), is the central focal point Lucas, or Gerrard? And secondly, it seems that this wasn't quite the original intention - is Rodgers adapting (he's certainly young enough) not simply to the players he has, but the possibilities it offers - and therefore will it be a 'permanent' shift, or one that he wants to move back to the original intention (and caveats about movement aside, lets call it 433) at some point?

(Longish own thoughts on those questions incomplete and work callout interrupted...)
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Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2013, 10:44:08 pm »
I didn't mean to sound like I was being harsh on Sterling - he's certainly a talent - but I wanted to point out more the maturity of Coutinho's performances. Again, I'm not basing my view solely on his performances for Liverpool, but also having watched him for Inter. The main thrust of my comparison was that Sterling could look at where Coutinho is now, and use that to spur him on, as you say, to keep improving and not rest on his laurels. Certainly, I wasn trying to downplay Sterling's talent; rather I was emphasising Coutinho's ability and reading of the game as something to encourage Sterling over the next two years (having said that, if I was sent to scout Liverpool/Inter with a view to signing either one of the two, Coutinho would stand out more. Some people might disagree though. I'm certainly not of the opinion that I have the definitive view of the matter, but from what I see, Coutinho right now offers more as a first team player, but Sterling can and will meet that standard when he is the age that Coutinho is now).
I felt like I got what you were saying. Coutinho's play and control, especially within his own build, makes the experience he has over Sterling evident. You can see Coutinho doesn't have the little half-second delays that Sterling does where he questions what the right option is, and Coutinho also seems more centred when he's on the ball.

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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2013, 10:53:30 pm »
JohnHobbes -

Here is an image from Whoscored.com that shows the shot frequency. It's an interesting slant you have, but I'm not qualified to delve into the statistics of it - Prof or Dan A or JP-65 or someone will be better at that. I just apply them :D



I think it would be worth looking into.

It's also interesting that on an individual level, for top players their shots on target per game average out at about 3 shots per game, I think, and their scoring rate if they are good is 1 in 3 shots. There are lots of nice little measurements like that which are relevant to players that can show that some are better than average, of course, but also that some players aren't as bad as people would believe. That's a different topic though :D
Well according to that graph. The "Cricket score" would be:
14/1
16/2 (+2)
18/3 (+2)
19/4 (+1)
26/5 (+7)
Final Score 28/5

But we had 35 shots so I think some of those little boots are overlapping (eg: shot, deflected, shot) and only represented as one shot. Regardless for this game, huge discrepancy between the first goal and those after that. My gut feeling is though less extreme this has been the case with most of our games this season. Then there is the why?

My feeling is rather than us changing so much it's the opposition chasing the game, playing less compact and giving us space to play into. I think we're really good at exploiting space but not so good at creating it. It's only once a goal is scored that we seem to be able to do this.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 10:56:44 pm by DanA »
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #78 on: February 19, 2013, 10:57:57 pm »
I agree with this analysis - almost unreservedly. Two points arising from it which are probably related: firstly (and hence the 'almost' :)), is the central focal point Lucas, or Gerrard? And secondly, it seems that this wasn't quite the original intention - is Rodgers adapting (he's certainly young enough) not simply to the players he has, but the possibilities it offers - and therefore will it be a 'permanent' shift, or one that he wants to move back to the original intention (and caveats about movement aside, lets call it 433) at some point?

(Longish own thoughts on those questions incomplete and work callout interrupted...)

I think Gerrard might be the attacking focal point, but Lucas is the anchor - so wherever Gerrard moves, if a player is in trouble, they know they can reset the ball to Reina or Lucas. Similarly, if the ball gets stuck in an area, they know they can play up to Sturridge and he'll make the ball stick.

On Rodgers - I think he's adapting - and I think the players he brings in over the next two windows might generate a slow change to how he wants the game to be played according to his vision, rather than adapting it to the players he has right now? If it is an adaptation, then he has been very clever - gets the senior players onside, keeps working on his principles of play without sacrificing too much in results, and can slowly phase out players who won't meet his standards and vision in the next year or so, I think.
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Re: Liverpool 5 - 0 Swansea Round Table
« Reply #79 on: February 19, 2013, 11:11:12 pm »
I think the players he brings in over the next two windows might generate a slow change to how he wants the game to be played according to his vision, rather than adapting it to the players he has right now? If it is an adaptation, then he has been very clever - gets the senior players onside, keeps working on his principles of play without sacrificing too much in results, and can slowly phase out players who won't meet his standards and vision in the next year or so, I think.

We need players absolutely confident on the ball, the best we can possibly get. When looking at Arsenal vs Bayern today it came out pretty dramatically again that the most important quality for a player in todays game is to stay calm on the ball in every game situation.

I hope for some gems to come similar to Coutinho, we have to take our squad to the next level, unless we will stuck where we are. 
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10