Topic: Liverpool 0-2 West Brom - Round Table

[Mutton Geoff]

Whatever label we give it (and I'd talk about collective mentality, or the approach to the game), I think this is closer to the mark, though not entirely - because the players believed in each other, and the system, and the manager, before other recent games, notably at City. What was the difference? For comparison purposes, say versus the Norwich game - at home, to a team struggling for form.

For me, we were (and by 'we', I mean a good portion of the team, including our most talented and 'stronger' individuals) slugglish, lethargic, lacklustre - from the opening seconds. Vulmea's point about a couple of small signs during the warm up was fascinating, illustrating the same 'unease'. Why? What were the differences to other recent games, particularly the Norwich game?

I feel I need to preface this these days by saying that I have no anti-Rodgers agenda, but we should be able to discuss mistakes and his learning curve. What happened before kick off? Did he strike the wrong note in the dressing room, or in training? Were senior players disillusioned by the approach - or by the replacement of Sturridge not by Borini, Sterling or Coutinho, but by Shelvey? (Speaking about roles and types rather than individuals... though, who knows...). It's difficult not to come back to the selection choice, not of Shelvey as an individual, but as part of the most 'defensive' front three or four we've played for weeks; almost, perhaps all season: the three players nearest Suarez were Downing, Henderson and Shelvey - while Borini, Sterling and Coutinho sat on the bench.

We talk a lot about mentality (collective rather than individual), tempo and intent; but that is set by the manager. I think we got that wrong on Monday and that was visible from the first minute - indeed, according to Vulmea's points, from the warm up; and it affected many, perhaps most, of the team - including the most talented and strongest. It's all very well for people to have 'grand theories' of what we should be doing as a club - and they have merit, in general terms - but sometimes problems in an individual game may be the result not of general causes, but specific issues. Fundamentally I don't think the West Brom game was telling us much about individual mentality or squad balance, but that the wrong note was struck somewhere in the preparation and buildup.

I still havent gotten over my rage from Monday, i'm still shaking my head this morning.

I can take defeat, i've seen some of our best teams lose, but i cant take lack of effort. Many might disagree but i thought we lacked effort all over the park on monday. We were slow, ponderous, indecisive - we lacked leaders on the pitch and our mental state was weak.

I'm beginning to think theres no way back for us, and thats as pessimistic as i have ever been. Rodgers has done well, but hes inexperienced and can only do so much. Our owners are not football men, neither is anyone on the board.

Our players for years have lacked the drive needed to be successful. Monday was more than just a blip , it was a kick in the teeth. We should be better than that, but we arnt, and we arnt because we dont have the right attitude to succeed. We can do it for a few games, but it always comes back.

West Brom offered nothing, they were disciplined sure, but beyond that? Utter average. yet they comfortably won 2-0 in the, 2-0. I still cant beleive it now.

And then you look at some of our players - how can a quality defender like Agger not do the basics of being a defender? That stuff should come natural to a professional. How come Stevie cant kick a decent pen from 12 yards? It was a shocker of an effort. How come Glen Johnson can not control a 5 yard pass? and he did it multiple times. Why couldnt Brendan Rodgers see that Shelvey just didnt work? Why cant he be more flexible with what he has to work with?

Footy is so simple, you do the basics right and your 60% there, but every few games we dont do that, and for professional footballers, guys paid to kick a ball around and learn every day of the week is unforgivable in my eyes.

Cant help but be really cutting into this team but they bloody deserve it, every single one of them.

i was thinking pedestrian passing in the first no zip to it, gave them time to defend in numbers, but still we had chances from distance and a couple of across the empty box moments. Both these post summed up my thoughts before the pen i thought we would never score and it was going to be a 0-0 or they would steal the win, watching it and yes i was not at the ground but from the kick off everything seemed flat, the players had no intensity, they were trying but not applicating themselves well, the crowd was totally flat, and i could only see Rodgers getting frustrated throughout the game.

[FoolForPool]

           "We talk a lot about mentality (collective rather than individual), tempo and intent; but that is set by the manager. I think we got that wrong on Monday and that was visible from the first minute - indeed, according to Vulmea's points, from the warm up; and it affected many, perhaps most, of the team - including the most talented and strongest. It's all very well for people to have 'grand theories' of what we should be doing as a club - and they have merit, in general terms - but sometimes problems in an individual game may be the result not of general causes, but specific issues. Fundamentally I don't think the West Brom game was telling us much about individual mentality or squad balance, but that the wrong note was struck somewhere in the preparation and buildup."
[/quote]   

(Sorry screwed up the quoting system)

The collective psychology of the individuals must define the 'team mentality', or at least be a large part of it imo.  It is what floats to the top when things are not going to plan.  When something is going fine then an individual doesn't focus on the negative.  But during a game when players are tired, some start making mistakes, then the individual's 'psychology' starts to materialise and impact the play. 

During the game players could see it wasn't working out.  Mistakes started to become infectious, individuals started to play for themselves, looking for a shot rather than running to create space for another.  Heads started to drop, desperate individual attempts were made to make amends for the poor overall team performance, which ended in blind runs and poor passes.

What I think I am saying is that this wasn't just a few individuals playing poorly.  The group psychology did not have the belief and strength to raise the individuals when things started to go pear shaped.  The errors became infectious and the team couldn't perform.

[gavshak]

I'm going to paraphrase what I said in the other thread.

Basically, you really weren't that bad.  There were three key factors: we had Mulumbu and Yacob back, who were integral to our great run at the start of the season. You were lacking one of your best attacking players, and finally we lined up with a very defensive set-up.

Your lot looked a bit lethargic, and lacked fludity, but you still controlled the game.  Nine times out of ten either gerrard would have scored the pen, or reid's mental kick would have been an own-goal, or borrini would have put that deflection into an empty net, and you would have just said it was a hard-earned 3 points.  It was just one of those games.

As an aside, I would be happy if I didn't ever have to hear someone - be they liverpool fan, albion fan, or anyone else - explain a poor result with 'lack of passion', 'not caring about the shirt' or anything else along those lines.

[yes]

Clubs like Spurs and Everton have taken many years to build a team that can challenge for top 4. Quite unlike us who have sacked managers and overhauled teams every season for past 3 years. Such approach is just not sustainable long term.


This is a very young team, even a few years of not finishing top 4 won't set this team back too much in the long term. I think when the owners are forcing the manager to buy only u23 players you have to give the manager time to see through some of these young players into the team.

And as I said that's without including Everton and Spurs, but regardless of that, renowned managerial solidity? Are we both talking about the same Spurs? The ones I'm talking about have had 13 managers in the last 15 years and just had a new one appointed the same time as Rodgers came to us. Let me guess though, there's yet another (well hidden) underlying and abstract reason why they can be discounted from comparison? Are we to assume that if they'd stuck with Santini they'd now be winning the league? Isn't that how it works after all?

Plus we only had 2 players under the age of 26 playing on Monday and one of them was very much unexpected to start. The age thing just doesn't hold water. In fact I'd be amazed if our starting XIs average age wasn't one of the highest in the league.

A few people need to start looking towards Occam's razor rather than trying to make things as complicated as possible in order to explain away our failings as being something else's fault.

[nightporter]

Why was (almost always) Enrique constantly forced back to face his goal, then panic and take ten touches, before eventually making a dangerous pass?

Why was Johnsons final ball so consistently awful? (Just smashing it at the defender.)

Why was Agger running into midfield to start the attack so often?

Why did Shelvey look completely disheartened after a couple of things didn't go his way early on, which badly affected the rest of his game?

But the main why has go to be: Why did we start the match as if we were playing the second leg of an important cup match away from home? (i.e. - pushing them hard to stop them playing their game. We were Liverpool FC at home! I'm not going to repet who they were, because it is irrelevant.

Only conclusion - That, for some reason, there is a serious personality flaw prevalent in our squad.

[Suareznumber7]

I'm going to paraphrase what I said in the other thread.

Basically, you really weren't that bad.  There were three key factors: we had Mulumbu and Yacob back, who were integral to our great run at the start of the season. You were lacking one of your best attacking players, and finally we lined up with a very defensive set-up.

Your lot looked a bit lethargic, and lacked fludity, but you still controlled the game.  Nine times out of ten either gerrard would have scored the pen, or reid's mental kick would have been an own-goal, or borrini would have put that deflection into an empty net, and you would have just said it was a hard-earned 3 points.  It was just one of those games.

As an aside, I would be happy if I didn't ever have to hear someone - be they liverpool fan, albion fan, or anyone else - explain a poor result with 'lack of passion', 'not caring about the shirt' or anything else along those lines.

Amen Brother.

[Zeb]

The ones I'm talking about have had 13 managers in the last 15 years

Clive Allen. One game in charge as caretaker while sorting out contracts for the new manager to come in. One of your 13. Actually a few of your 13. As is David Pleat. Do us a favour mate and at least park this line of argument in its own thread where it can be discussed on its own merits. Somewhere where we can discuss whether we should be running through a manager every couple of seasons in the hope of emulating Spurs' success of a domestic cup every decade and a run in the CL every couple of decades.

[GrkStav]

The way I saw the match, Johnson and Enrique were the main problems, followed by Shelvey and Suarez.

Johnson (primarily, but that may be my biased eyes, touche') and Enrique committed countless 'unforced errors' that surrendered possession of the ball, killed off our patiently built-up attacking momentum and were, overall, disheartening.

Agger was picked off for the first goal (it happens to the best CBs, and it was a well-practiced set-play, sometimes they do work as planned) and simply beaten for the second. I, personally, think that Reina was partly at fault for the second but that may be too harsh.

Suarez has been out of form for a few games. He's simply that good that even when out of form he's a real threat. Vs WBA, he was simply ineffective, and he called his own number a few too many times. They say that the way to get out of a scoring/shooting slump is to keep at it. Well, unfortunately, that only works in basketball. Shots-on-goal are a precious commodity in football.

Lucas will be just fine, and he's coming along nicely. Comparing his current play to his pre-injury play, and then comparing Essien's likewise, Lucas comes out ahead. Lucas still 'looks' like the same player, just a bit slower in his reaction time. When Gerrard is on song defensively, we don't really lose much. When he's understandably tired, we do with Lucas in his current condition.

Assaidi on the left flank with Henderson in Shelvey's spot might, with hindsight have worked better for us. Still, in all candor, and given we were finally granted a soft penalty and had Gerrard taking it (which he did WELL), why we didn't go up 1-0 with about 1/8 of the game still to go is only down to Foster making a world-class save.

Carragher may have learned a lot and adjusted to BR's system, but he still does not move properly after he passes to Lucas and/or Gerrard.

[GrkStav]

I'm going to paraphrase what I said in the other thread.

Basically, you really weren't that bad.  There were three key factors: we had Mulumbu and Yacob back, who were integral to our great run at the start of the season. You were lacking one of your best attacking players, and finally we lined up with a very defensive set-up.

Your lot looked a bit lethargic, and lacked fludity, but you still controlled the game.  Nine times out of ten either gerrard would have scored the pen, or reid's mental kick would have been an own-goal, or borrini would have put that deflection into an empty net, and you would have just said it was a hard-earned 3 points.  It was just one of those games.

As an aside, I would be happy if I didn't ever have to hear someone - be they liverpool fan, albion fan, or anyone else - explain a poor result with 'lack of passion', 'not caring about the shirt' or anything else along those lines.

Your analysis of the match is laconic and on target.

As for your aside, consider me a lifelong member of your . . . voluntary association. I absolutely detest that sort of 'explanation', 99% of the time post hoc and very convenient.

[C@mry]

How are we going to close that bloody 12 pts gap? Feel like pulling out my hair every time I think about that game.

[cowtownred]

I'm beginning to think theres no way back for us, and thats as pessimistic as i have ever been. Rodgers has done well, but hes inexperienced and can only do so much. Our owners are not football men, neither is anyone on the board.

And then you look at some of our players - how can a quality defender like Agger not do the basics of being a defender? That stuff should come natural to a professional. How come Stevie cant kick a decent pen from 12 yards? It was a shocker of an effort. How come Glen Johnson can not control a 5 yard pass? and he did it multiple times. Why couldnt Brendan Rodgers see that Shelvey just didnt work? Why cant he be more flexible with what he has to work with?

Footy is so simple, you do the basics right and your 60% there, but every few games we dont do that, and for professional footballers, guys paid to kick a ball around and learn every day of the week is unforgivable in my eyes.

Cant help but be really cutting into this team but they bloody deserve it, every single one of them.

Walshy's, you and I have sparred many times for many years.

Always well meaning on both our parts I hope!


I'm not sure I'd go as far as to agree there's no way back...  there might be, but it depends on a lot of stars aligning, and we simply don't know yet where or when that might be.  One thing I would say is that anyone attacking Rodgers with both barrels needs to read and re-read Geoff's posts. I have no idea how he will turn out, but to think of replacing him anytime in the next 4-5 years has to be madness. Yes, we made a catastrophic error in 2010, but its done. We have to try and get some kind of stability.

The owners are crucial..  but whilst I can never like them or their ways, they have flashed the cash.  Their treatment of Dalglish, and their dillying about in getting football men in to run the Club is shameful.. but thats another discussion.



But I wanted to talk about the players you mentioned.  Is Agger REALLY a quality defender? Is Glen Johnson anything except a reasonably fast runner wanting to get forward? I mean, does he deserve the hype laid on him by the English media? I've seen too many howlers and panic attacks, as well as rank poor decisions/positioning over the years.. making me think if I could choose Arbeloa or Steve Finnan i'd have them every day.  Enrique, the above but slower and even more panicky.

The defence we have is thought of far too highly by most on this site.  Add a change of system which invites these 3 to have more posession in risky areas, and in my opinion not one of them is comfortable.  Add that to their collectively poor defensive qualities and we are inviting problems.

Yes we lack players in all areas, but with the players we have in defense not suited to anything in particular, we are in serious difficulties.

[yes]

Clive Allen. One game in charge as caretaker while sorting out contracts for the new manager to come in. One of your 13. Actually a few of your 13. As is David Pleat. Do us a favour mate and at least park this line of argument in its own thread where it can be discussed on its own merits. Somewhere where we can discuss whether we should be running through a manager every couple of seasons in the hope of emulating Spurs' success of a domestic cup every decade and a run in the CL every couple of decades.

Please accept my apologies for giving the actual figure as to their number of managers in response to someone else's question. Do feel free to give your interpretation of what it is spiritually, figuratively, theoretically or whatever means you feel is acceptable.

Honestly though what is with people's insistence that, as in your example, Spurs' past is somehow irreconcilable with our future? "We're obviously going about things the right way, just look at us, those dickheads above us in the league haven't got a clue what they're doing!" How about Chelsea as an example of management turnover? Hasn't done their trophy cabinet any harm has it? Maybe that is the way to go after all?

In any case though, as you say Spurs do go through managers like they're going out of fashion, and where has it got them? Well, comfortably better than us and that's despite starting from a lower base point. Which brings me back to my actual point rather than this sidetrack, why are we arguably the most under-achieving team in the league in relation to wages paid and money spent? How can teams like West Brom come to Anfield with such a simple game plan and despite them not actually playing that well still make us look like dummies?

I'm by no means suggesting installing a revolving door in the manager's office but sometimes we have to look at lessons not learnt and get someone in who can at least get them playing to the level that their cost and wages merit. That'd be a start wouldn't it? Or how bad can we be allowed to be before we are allowed to make a change? Another three years just to see if he gets things going maybe? Based on what? Meanwhile we get further and further away from what was already a virtually impossible dream.

This game was living proof that he hasn't learnt from mistakes that we have been making all season but that's too simplistic an appraisal isn't it? The Emperor's New Clothes mentioned earlier seem most apt. None so blind as those who will not see.

[walshys_mullet]

Walshy's, you and I have sparred many times for many years.

Always well meaning on both our parts I hope!


I'm not sure I'd go as far as to agree there's no way back...  there might be, but it depends on a lot of stars aligning, and we simply don't know yet where or when that might be.  One thing I would say is that anyone attacking Rodgers with both barrels needs to read and re-read Geoff's posts. I have no idea how he will turn out, but to think of replacing him anytime in the next 4-5 years has to be madness. Yes, we made a catastrophic error in 2010, but its done. We have to try and get some kind of stability.

The owners are crucial..  but whilst I can never like them or their ways, they have flashed the cash.  Their treatment of Dalglish, and their dillying about in getting football men in to run the Club is shameful.. but thats another discussion.



But I wanted to talk about the players you mentioned.  Is Agger REALLY a quality defender? Is Glen Johnson anything except a reasonably fast runner wanting to get forward? I mean, does he deserve the hype laid on him by the English media? I've seen too many howlers and panic attacks, as well as rank poor decisions/positioning over the years.. making me think if I could choose Arbeloa or Steve Finnan i'd have them every day.  Enrique, the above but slower and even more panicky.

The defence we have is thought of far too highly by most on this site.  Add a change of system which invites these 3 to have more posession in risky areas, and in my opinion not one of them is comfortable.  Add that to their collectively poor defensive qualities and we are inviting problems.

Yes we lack players in all areas, but with the players we have in defense not suited to anything in particular, we are in serious difficulties.

To be honest mate i dont lay any blame at Rodgers door. I think hes done a decent job with what he has, i guess the only thing i'd put against him is his insistence to keep plugging away at his formation when a bit of tweaking here and there might do wonders.

I've always rated Agger, he's good on the ball, he's capable of a goal, he's not slow and can put in a tackle. His marking is something i've never questioned until this season, he's been atrocious in a lot of games. I nearly booted in the tv against Arsenal when he let that donkey Giroud score a free header.

And whilst Johnson has never been a strong defender, he has plenty in his locker going forward, and he should have had that West brom left side for breakfast, but he didnt look enthused. he never tried to beat his man or dribble. he just looked off.

Enrique is solid if not spectacular but he actually looked clueless on monday, not knowing what to do with the ball. And maybe that comes down to how Rodgers set up. With using Shelvey we all seemed to be bunched up. As with Sturridge, his forward movement frees up space. i would have liked us to try something more traditional with the personnell we had at our disposal, rather than shoe horning in.

And if Borini is a player Brendan rates the lad should start getting games. Its a bit worrying when Shelvey gets picked ahead of him in his natural position.

I just dont know, its like we are stuck in a vicious circle. Some of it is there but there always seems to be a few pieces missing. And whilst FSG have provided funds, i think their lack of action with key personnel and someone with football nous above Rodgers is telling.

[steveeastend]

To be honest mate i dont lay any blame at Rodgers door. I think hes done a decent job with what he has, i guess the only thing i'd put against him is his insistence to keep plugging away at his formation when a bit of tweaking here and there might do wonders.

He did. Especially in the last three games. Result: 2 Points.

It was said that we needed "leadership" and being flexible but we ended up being more shaky in defense then before.

I think Rodgers should stick even more to what he can do best: High defending line, possession and sticking to it until the end of the game.

[Prof]

I'm going to paraphrase what I said in the other thread.

Basically, you really weren't that bad.  There were three key factors: we had Mulumbu and Yacob back, who were integral to our great run at the start of the season. You were lacking one of your best attacking players, and finally we lined up with a very defensive set-up.

Your lot looked a bit lethargic, and lacked fludity, but you still controlled the game.  Nine times out of ten either gerrard would have scored the pen, or reid's mental kick would have been an own-goal, or borrini would have put that deflection into an empty net, and you would have just said it was a hard-earned 3 points.  It was just one of those games.

As an aside, I would be happy if I didn't ever have to hear someone - be they liverpool fan, albion fan, or anyone else - explain a poor result with 'lack of passion', 'not caring about the shirt' or anything else along those lines.

Very well put.

Let's hope all forms of lazy punditry disappear from the game.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

Please accept my apologies for giving the actual figure as to their number of managers in response to someone else's question. Do feel free to give your interpretation of what it is spiritually, figuratively, theoretically or whatever means you feel is acceptable.

Honestly though what is with people's insistence that, as in your example, Spurs' past is somehow irreconcilable with our future? "We're obviously going about things the right way, just look at us, those dickheads above us in the league haven't got a clue what they're doing!" How about Chelsea as an example of management turnover? Hasn't done their trophy cabinet any harm has it? Maybe that is the way to go after all?

In any case though, as you say Spurs do go through managers like they're going out of fashion, and where has it got them? Well, comfortably better than us and that's despite starting from a lower base point. Which brings me back to my actual point rather than this sidetrack, why are we arguably the most under-achieving team in the league in relation to wages paid and money spent? How can teams like West Brom come to Anfield with such a simple game plan and despite them not actually playing that well still make us look like dummies?

I'm by no means suggesting installing a revolving door in the manager's office but sometimes we have to look at lessons not learnt and get someone in who can at least get them playing to the level that their cost and wages merit. That'd be a start wouldn't it? Or how bad can we be allowed to be before we are allowed to make a change? Another three years just to see if he gets things going maybe? Based on what? Meanwhile we get further and further away from what was already a virtually impossible dream.

This game was living proof that he hasn't learnt from mistakes that we have been making all season but that's too simplistic an appraisal isn't it? The Emperor's New Clothes mentioned earlier seem most apt. None so blind as those who will not see.

It can't be a matter of "he gets three years, come what may", because that would be potentially ruinous. But it has to be a matter of giving a manager more than one season, and a couple of transfer windows, for sure. We're performing - results wise - below par. If that's still going on at the same time next season, the manager will be under serious pressure. But right now, we've got to accept that it is a long process. That doesn't mean assuming that Rodgers is the messiah, that his project is going to be inevitably successful and that in three years we'll be hammering the top European teams again. It has to mean that we wait and see for more than less than one season before declaring the project "the emperor's new clothes", doesn't it?

Otherwise, we are asking every manager to hit the ground sprinting, before he gets players in place, a system established, the whole club organised around his principles. And from that perspective, I agree with many posts here and elsewhere that state that those principles and methods have to be established beyond and above the current incumbent manager, otherwise we'll never get anywhere long-term. That is essential, and I hope FSG get that right, if nothing else. We cannot be reliant on one man and his philosophy ever again, no matter who he is. It has to come from the club as a whole, with the manager as a focal point.

As to the game being living proof of something, it was living proof that we can carve chances, even playing well below our best, but don't have enough clinical finishers to put teams away. They had - what - four shots? We had twenty-odd. It doesn't matter how good you are as a manager, if your team is creating twenty odd chances and don't take one, including a penalty, then you are going to struggle. We dominated the game. We should have won. The result is disappointing, but not a sign of a poor system. It might well be the sign of a system without the personnel to be effective all the time. They didn't make us look like dummies at all. We failed to convert dominance into goals, and that always gives the opposition heart, especially when they are set up to absorb and grab whatever they can from set pieces and counters.

We'll end up 8th-6th. An uninspiring season, for sure. But if we slash and burn again, then it's folly to think we're going anywhere.

[Kop10]

If we look at things critically without just being accepting, are we really seeing the benefits that was supposed to be intrinsic in Rodgers' system?

Has the system improved our attacking play over the season, or have better players i.e. Sturridge better than borini/sterling/suso? I still don't think we create enough attacking channels that are inherent in this system. For example, just one of our goals against the top 10 teams have come from a move of 2 or more passes. It was Suarez' goal against Everton and even that was very scrappy. I understand that most goals are 1 or 2 passes but then the system relies on building possession en route to goal. (Also I make reference to the top 10 a lot because they are the better organised sides).

Defensively, what is the way forward there? 7 out of the 9 top 10 teams have put 2 or more goals past us in a single game. (Talk about scoring when you want). Are there any indications that things are going to get better there with time? Apparently it's a leadership problem  back there so if we don't have the leaders - except carragher - are we just going to discard of the defenders we have now and go a-shopping? Isn't it also worrying that such a fatal assessment has been cast over the likes of Agger and Skrtel?

What exactly are we expecting from the system with time if not just better players?

[PhaseOfPlay]

If we look at things critically without just being accepting, are we really seeing the benefits that was supposed to be intrinsic in Rodgers' system?

Has the system improved our attacking play over the season, or have better players i.e. Sturridge better than borini/sterling/suso? I still don't think we create enough attacking channels that are inherent in this system. For example, just one of our goals against the top 10 teams have come from a move of 2 or more passes. It was Suarez' goal against Everton and even that was very scrappy. I understand that most goals are 1 or 2 passes but then the system relies on building possession en route to goal. (Also I make reference to the top 10 a lot because they are the better organised sides).

Most goals at every level, including for Barca, come from 3 passes or less. The average passing sequence is 5 passes. So your point isn't valid. We are scoring more goals per game than we did last season, so we've improved in that sense. Secondly, our system isn't based on using passes to create goals. It is based on using passes to rest on the ball, maintain freshness over the course of the game, and to prevent the other team from having the ball. We have one weakness in this area - conceding goals from direct central counterattacks - and another weakness that would exist regardless of our system - conceding from set-pieces.

Defensively, what is the way forward there? 7 out of the 9 top 10 teams have put 2 or more goals past us in a single game. (Talk about scoring when you want). Are there any indications that things are going to get better there with time? Apparently it's a leadership problem  back there so if we don't have the leaders - except carragher - are we just going to discard of the defenders we have now and go a-shopping? Isn't it also worrying that such a fatal assessment has been cast over the likes of Agger and Skrtel?

We are on course to better last years number of clean sheets, and we are on course for a similar goals against average. Our problems are up front, still. We score more goals, but the goals aren't spread around enough. If we can fix that in the transfer window, then we will do better next season.

What exactly are we expecting from the system with time if not just better players?

A better pressing game, more goals, and the ability to score from multiple positions. If you think that players aren't important to the system, then you haven't been involved in the game enough. If you think coaching is the magic wand, then you haven't been in the game long enough. We need key players in key positions - just as we did last year under Kenny, just as we did under Rafa. Without the right players, you are playing short-handed even if you have the right numbers of players. Our system is an attacking system, it is exciting to watch, it is something that will be an example of how to play the game for young players and new coaches - and as much as I loved Houllier and Rafa, and as successful as they were, nobody was going to be using their teams as examples for youth players. Barca, on the other hand, and Ajax, ARE this example. So Rodgers is going for something high brow. For those of us who don't wrap our emotions and daily lives and social structures around the win/loss columns, we can see that what Rodgers wants to build is very, very good indeed. He's not there yet, but he hasn't even been here a season. If a new Liverpool manager who is trying to make something positive with the team - in an age where you only get two periods to buy players, and most of whom are overpriced - can't get some perspective from the fans, then there is no hope for the club. We will never be great again, because nobody will ever be good enough, if they aren't winning every game 3-0 or better. 

[robgomm]

Spurs' last 9 years in which they eventually rose into the top four saw three years of Jol, season of Ramos and four of Harry. Hardly a manager a season.

[Kop10]

Most goals at every level, including for Barca, come from 3 passes or less. The average passing sequence is 5 passes. So your point isn't valid. We are scoring more goals per game than we did last season, so we've improved in that sense. Secondly, our system isn't based on using passes to create goals. It is based on using passes to rest on the ball, maintain freshness over the course of the game, and to prevent the other team from having the ball. We have one weakness in this area - conceding goals from direct central counterattacks - and another weakness that would exist regardless of our system - conceding from set-pieces.

It's not as simple as saying because we are on course to beat last years tally of goals, we are attacking better. It might mean we are attacking more, not necessarily cleverer or with any composure against the better organised sides. I still remember the precision and patience with which we dispatched the goals vs Arsenal at the emirates last year. If we showed the same in the same fixture this year, we'd have scored 5 - easily.

I know what we're using passing for but my contention is we dont prise open organised defences with anything resembling intentionality. Basically you can't see what it is we're trying to do. It's why Borini makes clever runs and is rarely spotted.

We are on course to better last years number of clean sheets, and we are on course for a similar goals against average. Our problems are up front, still. We score more goals, but the goals aren't spread around enough. If we can fix that in the transfer window, then we will do better next season.

Most of the better sides have scored 2 or more goals against us this season, home and away. I'm not making comparisons with last season really, I'm assessing the potential of this system to remedy that. We keep clean sheets against southamptons and norwichs at home, but as soon as a good side comes along, they put their regular 2 or more past us. So far, Brendan has implied that we lack leaders in defence, hence the dropping of Skrtel for Carra, so there's not much expectation of the current lot improving as familiarity with the system increases.

A better pressing game, more goals, and the ability to score from multiple positions. If you think that players aren't important to the system, then you haven't been involved in the game enough. If you think coaching is the magic wand, then you haven't been in the game long enough. We need key players in key positions - just as we did last year under Kenny, just as we did under Rafa. Without the right players, you are playing short-handed even if you have the right numbers of players. Our system is an attacking system, it is exciting to watch, it is something that will be an example of how to play the game for young players and new coaches - and as much as I loved Houllier and Rafa, and as successful as they were, nobody was going to be using their teams as examples for youth players. Barca, on the other hand, and Ajax, ARE this example.

 So Rodgers is going for something high brow. For those of us who don't wrap our emotions and daily lives and social structures around the win/loss columns, we can see that what Rodgers wants to build is very, very good indeed. He's not there yet, but he hasn't even been here a season. If a new Liverpool manager who is trying to make something positive with the team - in an age where you only get two periods to buy players, and most of whom are overpriced - can't get some perspective from the fans, then there is no hope for the club. We will never be great again, because nobody will ever be good enough, if they aren't winning every game 3-0 or better. 

You've totally digressed from my main point. I'm saying that this system has so far not shown itself as being more efficient with time, with the available resources. Our attacking play hasn't necessarily improved, hence why we struggled without the better new signing Sturridge against West Brom. Our defence is still susceptible to the same kind of goals that it has ever been.

So the ingredient this system needs now is not time per se, but better players.

**And there's no need to take it personally. I know your views about Rodgers and his work, but I just haven't bought wholesale into the project yet. Maybe when I celebrate even a scrappy win against a good side I'll come round.

[FoolForPool]

@Phase of Play -  I love your long term vision, in your opinion is Rodgers the man to deliver it or is he just a man brought in to try?

(I have learnt more about football from reading your posts than 10 years of watching matches and reading newspapers - thanks for the education)

[PhaseOfPlay]

It's not as simple as saying because we are on course to beat last years tally of goals, we are attacking better. It might mean we are attacking more, not necessarily cleverer or with any composure against the better organised sides. I still remember the precision and patience with which we dispatched the goals vs Arsenal at the emirates last year. If we showed the same in the same fixture this year, we'd have scored 5 - easily.

I know what we're using passing for but my contention is we dont prise open organised defences with anything resembling intentionality. Basically you can't see what it is we're trying to do. It's why Borini makes clever runs and is rarely spotted.

Most of the better sides have scored 2 or more goals against us this season, home and away. I'm not making comparisons with last season really, I'm assessing the potential of this system to remedy that. We keep clean sheets against southamptons and norwichs at home, but as soon as a good side comes along, they put their regular 2 or more past us. So far, Brendan has implied that we lack leaders in defence, hence the dropping of Skrtel for Carra, so there's not much expectation of the current lot improving as familiarity with the system increases.

You've totally digressed from my main point. I'm saying that this system has so far not shown itself as being more efficient with time, with the available resources. Our attacking play hasn't necessarily improved, hence why we struggled without the better new signing Sturridge. Our defence is still susceptible to the same kind of goals that it has ever been.

So the ingredient this system needs now is not time per se, but better players.

**And there's no need to take it personally. I know your views about Rodgers and his work, but I just haven't bought wholesale into the project yet. Maybe when I celebrate even a scrappy win against a good side I'll come round.

Every system needs better players. That's why United signed Van Persie when they already had Rooney, and why City bought Dzeko when they already had Tevez, Balotelli, Aguero, and Silva. So the answer for me is to wait and see if we can get more goalscorers. If we score 2 or 3 goals in the first half against West Brom with all the chances we had and the attacking third possession we had, that game is a different prospect. If Gerrard scores his penalty, that game is a different prospect. And the same could be said for one or two more games earlier in the season. This cannot be overemphasised enough - without natural goalscorers, every system will fall down. It doesn't matter how you approach the final third, it's whether you have the players who can put the ball in the net or not. When Mourinho was at Chelsea, he had Drogba, Lampard, Gudjohnsen, Robben, Duff and Terry all putting the ball in the net with regularity. That team had 4 players in double figures for the league that season. For us, we will have one player - Suarez (although Gerrard might get to 10). After those two, we have Sturridge, who will do well to get 10 goals, and after him, the rest will struggle to get 5 goals. So we need to fix that. We're clearly building from the middle outwards. I am expecting defensive and forward signings in the Summer. If we see that, then we will know that Rodgers has identified what needs to be done.

[PhaseOfPlay]

@Phase of Play -  I love your long term vision, in your opinion is Rodgers the man to deliver it or is he just a man brought in to try?

(I have learnt more about football from reading your posts than 10 years of watching matches and reading newspapers - thanks for the education)

I couldn't tell you. I hope he is, and he has the right tools to do so. My fear is that he won't get a chance here, but he will elsewhere, and he will be accepted by those fans, and he will bring that club from strength to strength. Meanwhile, we will probably go chasing the holy grail of managers, and would possibly keep going through one after another, watching enviously as Rodgers does a great job elsewhere. That's my fear.

Given time, money and fan support, I think he'll have us playing the best football in England. I also think he has that hardness needed to turn that football into trophies. When I think of it all, I think of a Roy Evans team, but with balls.

(and I appreciate the comment. I hope the posts are of some use to someone )

[kevin87]

I couldn't tell you. I hope he is, and he has the right tools to do so. My fear is that he won't get a chance here, but he will elsewhere, and he will be accepted by those fans, and he will bring that club from strength to strength. Meanwhile, we will probably go chasing the holy grail of managers, and would possibly keep going through one after another, watching enviously as Rodgers does a great job elsewhere. That's my fear.

Given time, money and fan support, I think he'll have us playing the best football in England. I also think he has that hardness needed to turn that football into trophies. When I think of it all, I think of a Roy Evans team, but with balls.

(and I appreciate the comment. I hope the posts are of some use to someone )

That is my fear too,

What I think many fans think will happen is one day we will play amazing football, win a game 3-0, and not lose a game for the rest of the year. Like a switch will be flicked and we'll be unstoppable. It just doesn't happen like that. Rodgers knows that, and knows there will be more games like west brom and villa in the next 18-24 months.

I think the owners know this too, however the fans need to understand this. We have improved from last year, we ate scoring goals...we are getting there. I'm just looking for a real reaction from the players for the next game, were getting there... It will just take a bit.

[Vulmea]

Downing's never outstanding. Yet he (and Henderson, of whom similar is often said) was - much - closer to his normal level than any of our mentally strong players were to theirs (Suarez, Gerrard, Carragher, Lucas, Johnson). So how does 'mentality' - or the supposed lack of it - explain the performance? It doesn't.

no it explains 10 minutes of the game were we gave up after west brom scored when other teams would battle back and equalise maybe even win - did we have any chanaces after they scored?

it explains how we fold and lose the lead so often and settle for a draw

it explains playing like a pub team against Oldham

it explains how we can score early and then cruise to 5 - 0 because things go our way - no problem with quality then , no problem with clinical finishing -

one game...........

if it was just one game when we've 'just not converted our chances'  then ok, two three, four  mmm but two years and successive managers - there's a common thread somewhere - we can't always be unlucky

[Red number seven]

I had lovely diagrams at the ready, my notebook, my Excel spreadsheet ready to click the X's and O's, etc. But we didn't lose this game from a tactical standpoint. We lost it through a combination of fatigue, key players performing badly and one tricky substitution (there was a logic to putting Sterling on - we weren't really getting true width on the left side, and so our attacks were dominated by right side play, which made it predictable for WBA. As soon as Sterling came on, our shape and possession changed and became more cohesive. Henderson going off though, and Borini coming on didn't work, and if we just made the one change - Sterling for Shelvey - we might not have conceded any goals. Henderson going off allowed them to go at us more through the middle). So no diagrams for me. It was 80% a player's problem, and maybe 20% a managerial problem. Fatigue and mentality were below standard, and I'm not too worried for the future, but the result was disappointing.

Agree with the analysis, but I think the 80-20 is generous to Brendan.

Entirely agree with you that the withdrawal of Henderson was an error and opened us up. We were dominating possession and space and making chances, so changing the actual shape of the side was wrong. Perhaps a positive sub like Sterling for Enrique (who seemingly had his boots on the wrong feet) with Downing at left back might have worked a bit better, retaining shape but giving more positive emphasis and better in possession from fullback.

The biggest problem though, for me, was the selection of Shelvey in the first place and how long it took Brendan to take him off when it was so obviously a mistake from minute 0. Quite simply, since the arrival of Sturridge we have looked miles better up top. Partially because he is simply a better player and bigger goal threat than what we have got otherwise, but also because we have witnessed a front three whose movement is extremely good and difficult to mark. There has been noticeably more space. Why, then, was Shelvey brought into this equation over Borini or Sterling when his mobility is extremely poor? He has good feet and might make a midfielder one day, but I don't think he'll be a centre forward - especially not one of a mobile interchanging front 3 - whilst he's got a hole in his arse. We suddenly looked clueless and static up front again, and, despite dominating possession, created nothing.

We needed to rip into WBA from the get go, but instead we allowed a side with dreadful form to come to Anfield and play themselves in, start to believe. By the time Brendan made the first change - which improved things enormously despite Borini not actually playing that well, we were already nervous about not finding the goal and they were already believing they might just get a draw, or even pinch it with the large and scary presence of Lukaku constantly limbering up in front of me.

Now, I won't deny there are player factors here; both fullbacks had off nights, Agger really badly fucked up for the goal, Gerrard and Lucas looked a little leggy and Luis found it difficult (due to the "attention" he received because they weren't too worried about anyone else). Also, WBA were very dogged and Foster made a couple of worldies. However, I put a lot of the fact WBA even started to believe they might get something out of the game is that the side selected started badly, in large part because we took a backwards step in the attack.

[Alf]

Credit to Steve Clarke for knowing his opponent, that's 2 clean sheets they've kept against us this season. We beat Chelsea 4 times in 5 games when he was with us.  Like last season dominated WBA for a long time but couldn't score. Never felt Gerrard would score pen. Disappointing.

[Vulmea]

I couldn't tell you. I hope he is, and he has the right tools to do so. My fear is that he won't get a chance here, but he will elsewhere, and he will be accepted by those fans, and he will bring that club from strength to strength. Meanwhile, we will probably go chasing the holy grail of managers, and would possibly keep going through one after another, watching enviously as Rodgers does a great job elsewhere. That's my fear.

Given time, money and fan support, I think he'll have us playing the best football in England. I also think he has that hardness needed to turn that football into trophies. When I think of it all, I think of a Roy Evans team, but with balls.

(and I appreciate the comment. I hope the posts are of some use to someone )

is there another fear that we invest 5 years and the lad isn't up to it and we lose our status. our pulling power, our top players and drift further into mediocrity ? that he knows the theory but doesn't understand the practice or how to implement it or that his ideas simply dont work ?

sometimes on here it sounds like see no evil hear no evil speak no evil - we need a grown up conversation about BR

he's been selected from a clutch of shiny new coaches by people who, lets be honest, have no understanding of football and placed in a job which on paper he has no outstanding qualifications for
- he has no track record of success  and no experience of this type of high profile role - we've already seen him make mistakes in many different facets of management - PR, team selection, tactics, motivation, transfers - he has a really tough job - he has to achieve more with less - he's had to replace a club legend and compete with the skill and reputation of a CL winning manager - he's starting out from a lower league position than and against better quality competition  (relatively) than any Liverpool manager in my lifetime - he has a fan base far less patient than any in my lifetime.  in an age of media scutiny far more critical than any previously

I hope the lad is the real deal but he makes it hard to believe it - he's not convinced me yet because so far we've acheived less than the sum of our parts and he's at least partly responsible for that and the parts we do have

 we gave up on Monday and he came out and said the players were terrific, he speaks in hyperbole, management speak and cliche - it gives the impression he's an empty book and yet I have a feel that he's a genuine lad - he's just trying too hard to convince people he's the real deal - I hope he makes it work for all of our sakes but he we need to see some type of consistent improvement from him and us

[PhaseOfPlay]

is there another fear that we invest 5 years and the lad isn't up to it and we lose our status. our pulling power, our top players and drift further into mediocrity ? that he knows the theory but doesn't understand the practice or how to implement it or that his ideas simply dont work ?

sometimes on here it sounds like see no evil hear no evil speak no evil - we need a grown up conversation about BR

he's been selected from a clutch of shiny new coaches by people who, lets be honest, have no understanding of football and placed in a job which on paper he has no outstanding qualifications for
- he has no track record of success  and no experience of this type of high profile role - we've already seen him make mistakes in many different facets of management - PR, team selection, tactics, motivation, transfers - he has a really tough job - he has to achieve more with less - he's had to replace a club legend and compete with the skill and reputation of a CL winning manager - he's starting out from a lower league position than and against better quality competition  (relatively) than any Liverpool manager in my lifetime - he has a fan base far less patient than any in my lifetime.  in an age of media scutiny far more critical than any previously

I hope the lad is the real deal but he makes it hard to believe it - he's not convinced me yet because so far we've acheived less than the sum of our parts and he's at least partly responsible for that and the parts we do have

 we gave up on Monday and he came out and said the players were terrific, he speaks in hyperbole, management speak and cliche - it gives the impression he's an empty book and yet I have a feel that he's a genuine lad - he's just trying too hard to convince people he's the real deal - I hope he makes it work for all of our sakes but he we need to see some type of consistent improvement from him and us

There's no guarantee with any manager. But we can't take the attitude that "we might not be where we want to be in 5 years, so let's not employ this manager over that manager". All appointments are a risk. But you have to approach it positively, otherwise, what's the point? It's like saying "well I COULD marry this woman, but what's the guarantee that she won't get fat and saggy after five years? Unless she can guarantee me 20 years of top class looks and sex, I'm afraid I'm just not going to commit". That's the attitude of some on here (not you - you can be contrary, but you are very intelligent in your points and I like debating them with you). It's shamefully negative and unjustified. We were in far more danger of horrible long-term repercussions under Hodgson than we will ever be under Rodgers.

If we really, really, really and truly want as close to a guarantee of trophies as you can get, then at the end of the season FSG have to move mountains to get Mourinho in as the manager. Not Klopp, not Rafa, not Ancelotti, not Hiddink. Mourinho. The football won't be pretty, the defence will be brilliant, and the press will love us. But he'll be gone in 2-3 years, and we'll be left back where we are now, wondering what the next five years will be like, some will still be pining for Rafa, others will think Carragher will be the answer. Neither will be.

We need to back a horse, and Rodgers, right now, is the best horse to back. There are certain things he may have to improve on, but he's not entrenched in his views like Hodgson was. He is a manager capable of growth. His ideas on the game are sound, his methods of training are sound, his tactics are varied, but are capable of some improvement. He won't hit his winning formula this season, but he'll get close. It took Houllier 2 years to get the right combination for the treble season, and it took Rafa 4 years to get the right combination for a league challenge. Too many people are damning Rodgers way, way too soon. They say "I just don't see X, Y and Z about where we're going", but I question their knowledge and experience of football, because their questions are largely based on hubris, not genuine insight. 

[Upinsmoke]

These little mistakes, end up costing us so much. It's not just under Rodgers either, under Kenny we battered teams, we carved out shit loads of opportunities but the opposition has a couple and we find ourselves pegged back or even beaten. Obviously it's not my job to find out how to fix this nor do I have the intellect to do so, I'm just observing but I know my eyes aren't lying, for nearly two years we've dominated a hell of a lot of football matches, matches that if the likes of Chelsea dominated, City, or Man U, they would come away with the points and they would be fighting for trophies, they usually are. And for almost two years I've been patient, keep telling myself that we will cut them out, but we haven't, the shame shit is still happening, different managers, different staff, few different players but the same patterns. It's unbelievable.

Also, if we were just shit fair enough, but were not, I refuse to accept that. It actually hurts more that we do so well but then fuck it all up than us just playing crap footy.

[yes]

I couldn't tell you. I hope he is, and he has the right tools to do so. My fear is that he won't get a chance here, but he will elsewhere, and he will be accepted by those fans, and he will bring that club from strength to strength. Meanwhile, we will probably go chasing the holy grail of managers, and would possibly keep going through one after another, watching enviously as Rodgers does a great job elsewhere. That's my fear.

Given time, money and fan support, I think he'll have us playing the best football in England. I also think he has that hardness needed to turn that football into trophies. When I think of it all, I think of a Roy Evans team, but with balls.

(and I appreciate the comment. I hope the posts are of some use to someone )

You seem a reasonable bloke so I'm genuinely not being facetious here but there definitely seems to be an assumption that no other teams will be seeking to better themselves and that it's only us that will improve with time. Is Rodgers that good a coach that he can not just make 'natural' progress but make the sort of progress that would take us past the teams that are already ahead of us?

To me it seems implausible given that he has shown so little thus far that teams with poorer individual talents like Swansea and West Brom (and arguably Everton and Spurs not to mention the other four who are definitely better than us man for man) are currently above us well into the second half of the season. You must see how people doubt your (and others) opinions on the matter? That is to say he's a brilliant coach who is capable of getting us playing the best football in England but can't get us to beat West Brom at home despite being in charge of his team for longer than Steve Clarke has been of his. Obviously this is only one game but there's been little to suggest over the season so far that they don't deserve to be ahead of us in the league. The only way I could see you theory holding true was if there was any past evidence to suggest that he is the man to do it but I struggle to see what you're basing it on other than faith.

I suppose what it boils down to is just how low in the league would we have to be before his showing so far was acceptable evidence in whether he is the man to take us forward? Bottom half? Relegation zone?

[johnsmithlfc]

is there another fear that we invest 5 years and the lad isn't up to it and we lose our status. our pulling power, our top players and drift further into mediocrity ? that he knows the theory but doesn't understand the practice or how to implement it or that his ideas simply dont work ?

sometimes on here it sounds like see no evil hear no evil speak no evil - we need a grown up conversation about BR

he's been selected from a clutch of shiny new coaches by people who, lets be honest, have no understanding of football and placed in a job which on paper he has no outstanding qualifications for
- he has no track record of success  and no experience of this type of high profile role - we've already seen him make mistakes in many different facets of management - PR, team selection, tactics, motivation, transfers - he has a really tough job - he has to achieve more with less - he's had to replace a club legend and compete with the skill and reputation of a CL winning manager - he's starting out from a lower league position than and against better quality competition  (relatively) than any Liverpool manager in my lifetime - he has a fan base far less patient than any in my lifetime.  in an age of media scutiny far more critical than any previously

I hope the lad is the real deal but he makes it hard to believe it - he's not convinced me yet because so far we've acheived less than the sum of our parts and he's at least partly responsible for that and the parts we do have

 we gave up on Monday and he came out and said the players were terrific, he speaks in hyperbole, management speak and cliche - it gives the impression he's an empty book and yet I have a feel that he's a genuine lad - he's just trying too hard to convince people he's the real deal - I hope he makes it work for all of our sakes but he we need to see some type of consistent improvement from him and us

It's actually sad but I agree with almost all of that.  It's like I feel I should just keep my mouth shut and hope for things to improve... that because Rodgers talks a good game and knows some interesting tactics and has all the patter, that somehow I should just go along for the ride and maybe, just maybe, we'll actually win something.

Obviously I support the team and would love nothing more than for Rodgers to succeed.... but I truly fear that in 2-3 years, we'll be even further behind than we are now with but with Suarez gone and Gerry retired.... and that thought terrifies me.

I understand where we are and I'm not suggesting we just sack Rodgers now and get someone else in...I understand that's what got us into this mess and I understand that we can't know what will happen unless we give him time and all the rest of it... but I just don't know.
I'm not feeling it at all.  I've tried, but I just don't think I really believe we're going anywhere at the moment.

I would absolutely love to be proved wrong though so let's wait an see I guess.

[naka]

And as I said that's without including Everton and Spurs, but regardless of that, renowned managerial solidity? Are we both talking about the same Spurs? The ones I'm talking about have had 13 managers in the last 15 years and just had a new one appointed the same time as Rodgers came to us. Let me guess though, there's yet another (well hidden) underlying and abstract reason why they can be discounted from comparison? Are we to assume that if they'd stuck with Santini they'd now be winning the league? Isn't that how it works after all?

Plus we only had 2 players under the age of 26 playing on Monday and one of them was very much unexpected to start. The age thing just doesn't hold water. In fact I'd be amazed if our starting XIs average age wasn't one of the highest in the league.

A few people need to start looking towards Occam's razor rather than trying to make things as complicated as possible in order to explain away our failings as being something else's fault.

have to agree with this
we are making too many excuses for players and management underachieving
( in tactics and purchases to date)
liverpool havent beaten a club above them this season so far so we are not in a false position in the league
my fear is that we all  think we know what BR wants to implement but he doesnt seem to be able to pick the players  to suit the system( sturridge aside) so far we have spent in excess of35 million on strikers and wingers yet apart from sturrifge i remain to be convinced on anyone( i know its premature) BR wanted rid of jordan yet he has been a breath of fresh air lately and arguably his substitution on monday exposed us and contributed to the defeat
we all hope he will succeed but questions need to be asked of him

[PhaseOfPlay]

Listen, it's getting boring. It's not even March. It's his first season.

You'll never walk alone indeed.

[scimitarsam]

Putting aside the individual poor performances, the questions over team selection and who won the tactical battle for a moment...

The biggest disappoint for me was the attitude of the players. With the recent Anfield routs and the performances at Arsenal and City I'd really been lulled into a false sense of security regarding a shift in positive menatlity and pure belief in the team. Rodger's system and selections had worked very well in those games and it seemed like we'd really built up some momentum and a good head of steam in individual and team confidence.

Make no mistake, I really doubt that implementing his system or getting in the right players is going to be BR's biggest challenge at Anfield. The hardest mountain to climb will be instilling a rock solid, positive and LFC-belief system psychology into the players.

I can take the loss and the average performance. What I couldn't stomach was seeing Stevie's head physically drop after the penalty was saved and then watching the rest of the players feed off that negativity.

Hope the first order of the day on Tuesday morning was for Rodger's to swallow Doc Peter's Chimp Paradox book...he's going to need all the help he can get.

[Kop10]

Amazing!

Have blind faith or else you are not a supporter.

I have not celebrated a single quality win all season, it's 13th of Feb. This is Liverpool Football Club.

[Johnnyboy1973]

Listen, it's getting boring.

No truer words spoken on RAWK all season.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Amazing!

Have blind faith or else you are not a supporter.

I have not celebrated a single quality win all season, it's 13th of Feb. This is Liverpool Football Club.

Have some support. YNWA.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Listen, it's getting boring. It's not even March. It's his first season.

You'll never walk alone indeed.

Indeed.

After four managers in four years, and subsequently four mid table finishes it seems some people have the taste for blood again as they search for the miracle worker.

How does a missed penalty lead to so many questions being asked about the manager and his tactics.

[Melbred]

Are we really talking about getting rid of another manager before he's finished his first full season for us? Isn't that what got us into the mess we're in in the first place?

People may say that they don't want Rodgers sacked, and want to see progress (ignoring that there has been), but can't see it happening and they just don't see any scope for improvement. Reading in between the lines, it's pretty clear what you're really saying.

For me it's the players who have been mainly at fault, and not just under Rodgers reign. The mental weakness in the squad is not something new but something that has plagued us for a few seasons now. This is the main challenge for Rodgers. If a club legend in Kenny wasn't able to get the players playing in the right mentality, it just shows you the task Rodgers has ahead of him.

If we're lose faith now though,  just to continue our search for the holy grail of managers, we'll have to start all over again. And it's then that we'll truly silde further back into mediocrity.

Funny thing is, Gerrard's penalty goes in, and we're all talking about a hard fought, gritty win against a banana skin side.