Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)

[Peter McGurk]

I have fond memories of standing terraces but I do not want to see them return. It really doesn't matter which end of the nettle you grab hold of, this one will always sting...

Standing is not the problem. Attitudes are the problem.

No one is suggesting otherwise. No one wants terraces back, but safe standing where there are barriers every other (standing) row, and every seated row.


Also, if a club wanted to adapt a current stand then it would need to comply with the new standing regs, this would include the step depth, steepness of the stand, etc. It wouldn't be a case of just putting the barriers in on the current steps.

There are no new standing regulations. The existing standing regulations are perfectly fine as they are.

[Billy Elliot]

No one is suggesting otherwise. No one wants terraces back, but safe standing where there are barriers every other (standing) row, and every seated row.


Also, if a club wanted to adapt a current stand then it would need to comply with the new standing regs, this would include the step depth, steepness of the stand, etc. It wouldn't be a case of just putting the barriers in on the current steps.

I wouldn't say no-one.  I'd love to have terraces back.  As pointed out earlier around 3/4 of the yellow wall is terracing and there's nothing unsafe about that.  As far as I'm concerned, terracing is perfectly safe as long as sensible capacity isn't exceeded and there are sufficient exits and entrances with organisation.  Football's a dynamic sport, it's not natural to watch it seated.

I realise about the sensitivity aspect, but from 1990 to 1994 the majority of the Kop chanted 'No Seats' and sang 'You'll Never Seat The Kop', every match.

Terracing is not going to happen though so I'd settle for rail seats.

[Peter McGurk]

I agree, but I meant tough in terms of the sensitivity around the issue for LFC in particular. (and I agree with Craig and Nessy, I think if we were ever to adopt SS, it'd probably be only after it was up and running at other clubs).

I don't see the point in shying away from a) standing is safe and b) the lack of it is changing the game beyond what we grew up to love.

What's more, everyone stands for every game - very often for the whole game.

Hiding behind other clubs doesn't do it for me.

[Hij]

I don't see the point in shying away from a) standing is safe and b) the lack of it is changing the game beyond what we grew up to love.

Yep. But it will be more difficult to get standing on the Kop (officially anyway) for obvious reasons. I do agree that if it is going to work it would need to be introduced into other stadiums in the Premier League - have a run of a season or two of no incidents and then we could lobby to have it.

No-one wants to disrespect the 96 or the families, but plainly the tragedy didn't take place because of standing, but because a wide array of factors on the day that combined into what happened. Once it's proven to be safe, hopefully we can move forwards with it.

I would love to celebrate a massive goal without worrying about falling halfway down the stand if a lad behind me pushes me by accident.

[Peter McGurk]

Yep. But it will be more difficult to get standing on the Kop (officially anyway) for obvious reasons. I do agree that if it is going to work it would need to be introduced into other stadiums in the Premier League - have a run of a season or two of no incidents and then we could lobby to have it.

No-one wants to disrespect the 96 or the families, but plainly the tragedy didn't take place because of standing, but because a wide array of factors on the day that combined into what happened. Once it's proven to be safe, hopefully we can move forwards with it.

I would love to celebrate a massive goal without worrying about falling halfway down the stand if a lad behind me pushes me by accident.

It's about attitude. The prevailing attitude to standing is misplaced.

[Nessy76]

It's about attitude. The prevailing attitude to standing is misplaced.

Nobody denies that. But the only way that attitude will change is if and when the change is implemented, which is not realistically going to start at Liverpool for reasons you know and understand fully but like to ignore for some reason of your own.

[Peter McGurk]

Nobody denies that. But the only way that attitude will change is if and when the change is implemented, which is not realistically going to start at Liverpool for reasons you know and understand fully but like to ignore for some reason of your own.

Not ignoring anything. Rather, facing up to reality.

[Nessy76]

Not ignoring anything. Rather, facing up to reality.

And the reality is, it will take several other Premier League clubs bringing in safe standing over several years before it ever gets discussed at Liverpool.

[Peter McGurk]

And the reality is, it will take several other Premier League clubs bringing in safe standing over several years before it ever gets discussed at Liverpool.

The reality is people have been misled.

[Nessy76]

The reality is people have been misled.

Which nobody is denying. So I don't know why you keep feeling the need to repeat it.

[rojo para la vida]

My feelings are that we above all others in the Premier League should be leading way in safe standing. What I do know is that we can't allow ourselves to fall even further behind the pack if we fail to implement it, if and as soon as we are allowed.

I'm glad that a degree of sensible debate is already being undertaken because of the sensitivity of it at our club but I think that despite all the information that is available, a minority of people are still equating it with the old days of the swaying Kop, so there's still some educating that needs to happen.

In this age of health and safety, there is zero chance of something be allowed that is likely to be a vehicle for accidents to happen. What I known from personal experience is that safe standing as per the AWD arena in Hannover is safer than standing while in the seats on The Kop, where the seats in front are effectively a trip hazard when you stand up at any point of the game.

[Peter McGurk]

Which nobody is denying. So I don't know why you keep feeling the need to repeat it.

I'm repeating it because the match is still being ruined by it.

My feelings are that we above all others in the Premier League should be leading way in safe standing. What I do know is that we can't allow ourselves to fall even further behind the pack if we fail to implement it, if and as soon as we are allowed.

I'm glad that a degree of sensible debate is already being undertaken because of the sensitivity of it at our club but I think that despite all the information that is available, a minority of people are still equating it with the old days of the swaying Kop, so there's still some educating that needs to happen.

In this age of health and safety, there is zero chance of something be allowed that is likely to be a vehicle for accidents to happen. What I known from personal experience is that safe standing as per the AWD arena in Hannover is safer than standing while in the seats on The Kop, where the seats in front are effectively a trip hazard when you stand up at any point of the game.

Indeed it is safe. Absolutely safe. As safe as standing in the Sandon car park looking at the mock-up of it.

[Billy Elliot]

I'm glad that a degree of sensible debate is already being undertaken because of the sensitivity of it at our club but I think that despite all the information that is available, a minority of people are still equating it with the old days of the swaying Kop.

I don't think there was anything unsafe about the old Kop, especially in the 90s when they reduced the capacity and added the moat at the front.  It was perfectly safe.  Sensible capacity that was never exceeded, the entrances and exits were good both in quality and quantity and they were well managed.

I prefer the safe standing at Hamburg than Hanover.  I don't understand why they need have the folded seats though.  The ground is perfectly safe for high profile Bundersliga matches but they play in the Champions League and it suddenly becomes a death trap, unfold the seats.

 

[Peter McGurk]

I don't think there was anything unsafe about the old Kop, especially in the 90s when they reduced the capacity and added the moat at the front.  It was perfectly safe.  Sensible capacity that was never exceeded, the entrances and exits were good both in quality and quantity and they were well managed.

I prefer the safe standing at Hamburg than Hanover.  I don't understand why they need have the folded seats though.  The ground is perfectly safe for high profile Bundersliga matches but they play in the Champions League and it suddenly becomes a death trap, unfold the seats.

 

Do you know what the ticket prices for sitting and standing are?

[Nessy76]

I don't think there was anything unsafe about the old Kop, especially in the 90s when they reduced the capacity and added the moat at the front.  It was perfectly safe.  Sensible capacity that was never exceeded, the entrances and exits were good both in quality and quantity and they were well managed.

I prefer the safe standing at Hamburg than Hanover.  I don't understand why they need have the folded seats though.  The ground is perfectly safe for high profile Bundersliga matches but they play in the Champions League and it suddenly becomes a death trap, unfold the seats.

 

It's probably more so that everyone has the same set of standards to meet for European matches.

[mersey_paradiso]

Do you know what the ticket prices for sitting and standing are?

Here's Hamburg and Dortmund's ticket prices ... so cheap !!

(Stehplatz being the German for the standing area on the Hamburg site)

http://www.hsv.de/fileadmin/redaktion/Tickets/Saison_2015_2016/Einzelspiele/Preislisten/1online.pdf

http://www.bvb.de/eng/Tickets/Seating-plan


I hope we do eventually get a standing area back on the Kop , it will make such a difference to the atmosphere.

Obviously and understandably it is an emotional issue for many but I am sure once it is seen as safe and working fine at other clubs it will happen at Anfield.

It is the same as at gigs , I always try to get a standing ticket as opposed to seats because it is much more enjoyable than sitting down in the balcony - you become

part of the event rather than feeling you're a spectator - likewise on the Kop .

[Billy Elliot]

Obviously and understandably it is an emotional issue for many but I am sure once it is seen as safe and working fine at other clubs it will happen at Anfield.

I have problems understanding this to be honest.  Every week between 1990 and 1994 the vast majority of the Kop chanted "no seats" and sang "You'll never seat the Kop".  The rest of the ground didn't object so back then it wasn't an emotional issue for many.

I understand that it's an emotional issues for a small amount of individuals, but it seemed to become an emotional issue for "many" quite a few seasons after the seats were put in.

[Billy Elliot]

It's probably more so that everyone has the same set of standards to meet for European matches.

Yeah mate, I do realise that but I was just trying to underline how ridiculous it is (in my opinion).

For example, those who went to Exeter a few season back saw how impressive (for a small club), their new terracing is (the Big Bank I think it's called).  It's perfectly safe but if they get promoted to the Championship (and stay there for 3 seasons), then it becomes a death trap.

[Narwin Dunez]

I've probably said it before, and seeing as I wasn't around in 1989, I probably have no right to say it but

Standing didn't cause the tragic events at Hillsborough.

So in my mind, to say "standing is against the 96" (not that anyone has done so in this thread recently, but that is the main argument against I think from our fans) rankles with me a bit.

[Redman0151]

I imagine it'll be a lot easier to have a balanced discussion about it, and hopefully push it through, once the inquests are over

[Nessy76]

I have problems understanding this to be honest.  Every week between 1990 and 1994 the vast majority of the Kop chanted "no seats" and sang "You'll never seat the Kop".  The rest of the ground didn't object so back then it wasn't an emotional issue for many.

I understand that it's an emotional issues for a small amount of individuals, but it seemed to become an emotional issue for "many" quite a few seasons after the seats were put in.

That's right, and opinions can, and probably will, swing back the other way in time, once other grounds have shown that it can be done.

[Peter McGurk]

That's right, and opinions can, and probably will, swing back the other way in time, once other grounds have shown that it can be done.

As long as someone else decides......

[mersey_paradiso]

I have problems understanding this to be honest.  Every week between 1990 and 1994 the vast majority of the Kop chanted "no seats" and sang "You'll never seat the Kop".  The rest of the ground didn't object so back then it wasn't an emotional issue for many.

I understand that it's an emotional issues for a small amount of individuals, but it seemed to become an emotional issue for "many" quite a few seasons after the seats were put in.

True mate , maybe I should have said "some" . I remember well the seasons you mentioned , it was the last time I managed to get to Anfield regularly and go to away games too.

I used to go to pretty much every home back then and was on the Kop on the last day when quite a few stayed behind at the end for one final protest against the

seating of the Kop , to no avail .

Hopefully the standing section at Celtic will be a success.

[andy07]

As I have said before standing is implicitly safe, most of us spend a significant part of each day doing just that.  The situation in which you are standing dictates the risk, for instance the current Main Stand with its narrow passages, steep staircases with narrow steps and tight exits presents a far greater risk than controlled standing on the Kop.  It would be interesting to see how many people are actually against the introduction of terracing, I don't know many.

[MJohnson2]

Looking at those ticket prices in Hamburger I noticed that in the safe standing area they have a fixed price of €14 for all matches, whether category A,B,C or D. This should be used in England and especially at Liverpool.

[CornerFlag]

Do people really think a standing area of any form will result in massively reduced prices for anyone entering those areas?  I could see a fiver off perhaps but nothing more than that.

[Millie]

The reality is people have been misled.

Margaret Aspinall is implacably hostile to this issue - she just want even talk about it - she just goes into a rage whenever it is mentioned - that is what you are up against

[MJohnson2]

Margaret Aspinall is implacably hostile to this issue - she just want even talk about it - she just goes into a rage whenever it is mentioned - that is what you are up against

The thing here is, I speak for everyone when I say I have great respect and admire all that she's has done, however she's damaging my respect for her rapidly with her constant moaning about the use of safe standing at Liverpool, snapping before the question to her could be finished, then using the word 'hillsborough" claiming if this was to happen we'll see more tragedies of its kind.
She won't even listen to the journalist who was showing her just how safe it is compared to standing in the 80'/90'.

Hopefully, when we get justice and those responsible are dealt with she'll back off, either that or the club no longer see standing as a sensitive issue.

[Peter McGurk]

Margaret Aspinall is implacably hostile to this issue - she just want even talk about it - she just goes into a rage whenever it is mentioned - that is what you are up against

I wonder if there is anyone here from a purely personal point of view and without deference or want of respect to anyone else, who does not want a return to some form of standing in some part of the ground?

[MJohnson2]

I wonder if there is anyone here from a purely personal point of view and without deference or want of respect to anyone else, who does not want a return to some form of standing in some part of the ground?

Unless he/she is disabled or has walking problems they shouldn't have any issues with standing. if they do, the best seat for them is their couch.

[poopscoop]

I wonder if there is anyone here from a purely personal point of view and without deference or want of respect to anyone else, who does not want a return to some form of standing in some part of the ground?

I am against standing. I stood as a kid and then as an adult until the Taylor report said otherwise. I didn't feel any more safe or unsafe post-1989 standing - similarly I feel neither safe nor unsafe in a seated environment. I appreciate there are a lot of fans who are keen to reintroduce standing and that it is successfully managed in Germany and other countries, but my reference point is not the many match days that have gone off without incident - its limited to one particular day and my personal memories of it. A contradictory position, I know, but I think there are many of my generation of fans who would have difficulty with its reintroduction.

[CraigDS]

I am against standing. I stood as a kid and then as an adult until the Taylor report said otherwise. I didn't feel any more safe or unsafe post-1989 standing - similarly I feel neither safe nor unsafe in a seated environment. I appreciate there are a lot of fans who are keen to reintroduce standing and that it is successfully managed in Germany and other countries, but my reference point is not the many match days that have gone off without incident - its limited to one particular day and my personal memories of it. A contradictory position, I know, but I think there are many of my generation of fans who would have difficulty with its reintroduction.

Then, and I really don't mean this to sound arsey, you maybe need to look at the differences between your experience of standing and what is proposed. Safe standing is as far away from those old standing terraces as current seating is.

[Alan_X]

Then, and I really don't mean this to sound arsey, you maybe need to look at the differences between your experience of standing and what is proposed. Safe standing is as far away from those old standing terraces as current seating is.

I assume the particular day he's talking about was standing on the Leppings Lane terrace.

[CraigDS]

I assume the particular day he's talking about was standing on the Leppings Lane terrace.

No I understood that, and which is why I really wasn't meaning it arsey at all. Can totally get why it would effects anyone views.

Was more just referring to the word reintroduction which was used twice, as nothing is really being reintroduced at all, as safe standing is a massive amount away from standing terraces.

[Peter McGurk]

I am against standing. I stood as a kid and then as an adult until the Taylor report said otherwise. I didn't feel any more safe or unsafe post-1989 standing - similarly I feel neither safe nor unsafe in a seated environment. I appreciate there are a lot of fans who are keen to reintroduce standing and that it is successfully managed in Germany and other countries, but my reference point is not the many match days that have gone off without incident - its limited to one particular day and my personal memories of it. A contradictory position, I know, but I think there are many of my generation of fans who would have difficulty with its reintroduction.

There are many others who were there and only by chance are still with us, who think differently. They would even have the old standing back let alone safe standing which is a million miles from the way that was.

[Jay_Mc]

Standing isn't unsafe. The term safe standing does the whole debate a disservice as it suggests something that is untrue - that it is unsafe.

The debate on standing is a minefield. The HFSG are against. The HJC are neutral. Anne Williams didn't oppose it. The HFSG have used their platform at the services held each year which influences the debate (wrongly). It isn't just Margaret Aspinall - Trevor Hicks is against.

I am aware of discussions that have been had with supporters after we played Everton away in the FA Cup about standing. Dalglish has wrongly talked about standing - he gives an example of the seated Kop and then talks about atmospheres when we stood!

One of the difficulties with safe standing, if it isn't done on more than a one person per seat/area basis, is it won't automatically mean a reduction in price. The Kop wouldn't accommodate current models for more than one person per seat.

I do think it is a debate, for a number of reasons, that is likely more advanced after justice happens.

[Peter McGurk]

Standing isn't unsafe. The term safe standing does the whole debate a disservice as it suggests something that is untrue - that it is unsafe.

The debate on standing is a minefield. The HFSG are against. The HJC are neutral. Anne Williams didn't oppose it. The HFSG have used their platform at the services held each year which influences the debate (wrongly). It isn't just Margaret Aspinall - Trevor Hicks is against.

I am aware of discussions that have been had with supporters after we played Everton away in the FA Cup about standing. Dalglish has wrongly talked about standing - he gives an example of the seated Kop and then talks about atmospheres when we stood!

One of the difficulties with safe standing, if it isn't done on more than a one person per seat/area basis, is it won't automatically mean a reduction in price. The Kop wouldn't accommodate current models for more than one person per seat.

I do think it is a debate, for a number of reasons, that is likely more advanced after justice happens.

There's no sense in ducking the issue that standing is safe. It is not 'unsafe'. It is safe in terms of current design guidelines. There is no governing body who says it is not safe (including the police).

As it happens, the Kop can accommodate two for one. The basic configuration (terrace angle and step depth) is within the guidelines for standing. The minimum step depth is 280mm. The kop steps are greater than 560mm. Rail seats sit in a much slimmer frame than the existing seating. The often quoted ratio is actually 1.8:1 rather than 2.0:1 to allow for other changes (to fire escapes etc).

The extra weight would be a consideration but it wouldn't be the first time a structure is strengthened to take new loads.

A minor modification (as part of the rail seat) would be need to incorporate a second step (new guidelines for rail seating do not yet exist. But the German model does not include the second step) ie., even the 'old' standing on the Kop with barriers every 6 or so steps would comply with safety standards - let alone the enhanced standard of safe standing with barriers every two rows of standing.

[andy07]

Margaret Aspinall is implacably hostile to this issue - she just want even talk about it - she just goes into a rage whenever it is mentioned - that is what you are up against

Sensitivity will always be an issue with our Club and rightly so, however the views of Margaret Aspinall and her intransigence in being unable to separate the general context of standing from the circumstances of that particular day does not help.   I had a ticket for the Leppings Lane terraces and spent an hour outside until I managed to swap it for a ticket in the North Stand.   Why?  That particular terrace was implicitly unsafe,  I had stood behind the goal at the 1980 semi and had sustained injuries.   Did that experience stop me standing on terraces?  No.   Did the experience stop me standing on that particular terrace?  Yes.    Do I want to see safe standing?   Yes.

[Timeless Melody]

[MJohnson2]

Should start trying to get banners on the kop pushing for safe standing to be introduced, I.e No Seats.