Author Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)  (Read 501894 times)

Offline Adamski LFC

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Put simply I see it as this;

  • Current Green Guide if consulted on Old Kop safety review would pass as currently defined
  • Rail Seating (which is favoured by the Safe Standing Campaign) has superior safety features to Old Kop due to barriers
  • The 1.8 x factor is based on 1 per seat and 1 per gap between seat in front on the step down, Uefa would go back to 1 per seat
  • Premier League have specified all seater stadiums and have no appetite for standing, they are the barrier currently
  • The Safe Standing Roadshow is a vehicle for advertising the benefits of Safe Standing and is not a prescription for standing.  A club could commit to an all standing stadium if it so wished and were able to
  • As League 1 and League 2 are excepted from sitting due to an amendment, the precedent is set
  • Is currently supported by these clubs; Aldershot Town, Aston Villa, Barnsley, Brentford, Bristol City, Burnley, Cardiff City, Crystal Palace, Derby County, Doncaster Rovers, Exeter City, Hull City, Leeds United, Luton Town, Oldham Athletic, Peterborough United, Plymouth Argyle, Portsmouth, Reading, Shrewsbury Town, Sunderland, Swansea City, Swindon Town, Watford, AFC Wimbledon and Wolverhampton Wanderers

Feel free to add more
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Offline SquirrelandGman

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I dont see why the kop cant implement safe standing(aside from the obvious sensitive issue).

By all accounts it has been proven to be safe and most of the time, people on the kop are standing anyways.


Offline Adamski LFC

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I dont see why the kop cant implement safe standing(aside from the obvious sensitive issue).

By all accounts it has been proven to be safe and most of the time, people on the kop are standing anyways. EDIT.  So Safe Standing has to be safer


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Offline Lolo

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I think a lot of people on here don't quite understand the 1.8 figure and what it refers to........

Let's assume that a CURRENT all-seating area has a capacity of 10,000 seats.

A 'SAFE-STANDING' seat takes up more space than the current seat, so the same area can only fit 9000 'SAFE-STANDING' seats!

BUT, when the seat is raised up and locked, these 9000 spaces now hold 18000 standing! 18000 / 10000 = 1.8

 


Offline LiamG

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I asked this in the thread in the main forum but thought i'd ask here too

Since we are getting a new club shop, what will happen to the old one in the KOP?

Offline Adamski LFC

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That diagram is interesting but I thought it was more as illustrated earlier where you still have the 15 seats but had people standing in front of the locked up seats and people further forward standing off centre to the locked seat, like this.

     Current                UEFA            Safe Standing
 :):):):):)       :):):):):)        :):):):):)
                                                       :):):):)

For each block of say five seats, you can have nine standing.  Weirdly enough 9/5 = 1.8
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Offline decisivemoment

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One potential significant problem with safe standing at Anfield is that the legroom in most parts of Anfield is significantly small compared to, say, Wembley or the Emirates, although comparable to Old Trafford.  Basically, we're talking about 60-70cm between rows rather than 80-90cm.  Whereas the all-new stadiums with their bigger legroom could easily accommodate safe-standing at a 1.8 ratio, or as much as two even, it would be more difficult in adapted stadiums like Anfield because of the more limited legroom.  It's quite possible in view of this limitation that safe-standing at Anfield -- even if the UK adopted German rules lock, stock and barrel -- would end up by limiting things to one standee for one seated fan.

Offline Ruthless

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One potential significant problem with safe standing at Anfield is that the legroom in most parts of Anfield is significantly small compared to, say, Wembley or the Emirates, although comparable to Old Trafford.  Basically, we're talking about 60-70cm between rows rather than 80-90cm.  Whereas the all-new stadiums with their bigger legroom could easily accommodate safe-standing at a 1.8 ratio, or as much as two even, it would be more difficult in adapted stadiums like Anfield because of the more limited legroom.  It's quite possible in view of this limitation that safe-standing at Anfield -- even if the UK adopted German rules lock, stock and barrel -- would end up by limiting things to one standee for one seated fan.
although i can see where you are coming from thats all wrong.
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Offline decisivemoment

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although i can see where you are coming from thats all wrong.

Do please explain -- is it a matter of even 60 to 65 cm of clearance being OK under the Green Book for two people rather than one? 

Offline Peter McGurk

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One potential significant problem with safe standing at Anfield is that the legroom in most parts of Anfield is significantly small compared to, say, Wembley or the Emirates, although comparable to Old Trafford.  Basically, we're talking about 60-70cm between rows rather than 80-90cm.  Whereas the all-new stadiums with their bigger legroom could easily accommodate safe-standing at a 1.8 ratio, or as much as two even, it would be more difficult in adapted stadiums like Anfield because of the more limited legroom.  It's quite possible in view of this limitation that safe-standing at Anfield -- even if the UK adopted German rules lock, stock and barrel -- would end up by limiting things to one standee for one seated fan.

Ok look...

For the purposes of calculating the capacity of standing areas at sports grounds, the maximum number that can be applied is 47 persons per 10 square metres.

This is about 0.2sqm per person or half the current density on the kop which is 0.4sqm per person (not the 0.5sqm per person as at more recent stadia). Two people can stand where one sits.

Also...

Row depths for seating have increased over the years from 600mm to 700mm. It is now suggested they be 800mm for new construction. However:

For existing construction:
The dimensions of terrace steps for existing terraces [standing] should be as follows:
a. Tread depth: 280 mm minimum


Or, two steps of more than 280mm can fit in one row of seating on the Kop even with its 'restricted' and antiquated legroom. So again, two can stand where one sits. People forget, it's not like the standing on the kop now. It gets cosy. It's a proper crowd but with decent sightlines and a barrier every two people.

So...

When calculating sightlines it should be noted that the maximum recommended angle of slope for standing accommodation is 25°, compared with 34° for seating.

By chance or design, the angle of slope of the Kop is about 24 degrees.

***

The reason the ratio is in the order of 1.8:1 and not 2:1 has nothing to do with the spacing of people or seats but because seats can be lost to accommodate additional escapes. However... this depends on whether there is spare capacity in the evacuation time on the existing Kop or not.

And all of this based on barriers 3m apart - not a barrier every seating row/ two rows of standing.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 11:58:34 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline alfonso

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Is there any news on other clubs in the top two tiers implementing this (so they can show it is the way forward)?
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Offline Eeyore

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Ok look...

For the purposes of calculating the capacity of standing areas at sports grounds, the maximum number that can be applied is 47 persons per 10 square metres.

This is about 0.2sqm per person or half the current density on the kop which is 0.4sqm per person (not the 0.5sqm per person as at more recent stadia). Two people can stand where one sits.

Also...

Row depths for seating have increased over the years from 600mm to 700mm. It is now suggested they be 800mm for new construction. However:

For existing construction:
The dimensions of terrace steps for existing terraces [standing] should be as follows:
a. Tread depth: 280 mm minimum


Or, two steps of more than 280mm can fit in one row of seating on the Kop even with its 'restricted' and antiquated legroom. So again, two can stand where one sits. People forget, it's not like the standing on the kop now. It gets cosy. It's a proper crowd but with decent sightlines and a barrier every two people.

So...

When calculating sightlines it should be noted that the maximum recommended angle of slope for standing accommodation is 25°, compared with 34° for seating.

By chance or design, the angle of slope of the Kop is about 24 degrees.

***

The reason the ratio is in the order of 1.8:1 and not 2:1 has nothing to do with the spacing of people or seats but because seats can be lost to accommodate additional escapes. However... this depends on whether there is spare capacity in the evacuation time on the existing Kop or not.

And all of this based on barriers 3m apart - not a barrier every seating row/ two rows of standing.

Are you seriously suggesting that a safe standing area shouldn't comply with current safety standards and should rely on any new legislation being brought in not being retrospective. The new Kop was created as an all seater stand and to change it's use and then look to try and rely on some bizarre notion of grandfather rights relating to existing terraces is ludicrous Peter.
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Offline Eeyore

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Is there any news on other clubs in the top two tiers implementing this (so they can show it is the way forward)?

No one can implement it because it simply isn't allowed in the top two divisions you simply have to have a seat for each person after a Club has been in the 2nd tier for 3 years. The closest is League one Bristol City who are installing rail seats but initially they will only be allowed to be used for Bristol Rugby Clubs games.  They cannot be allowed for Football games because even though Bristol City are in League one you are not allowed to convert any area of an existing all seater stadium back into standing areas.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 09:43:35 am by Al 555 »
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Are you seriously suggesting that a safe standing area shouldn't comply with current safety standards and should rely on any new legislation being brought in not being retrospective. The new Kop was created as an all seater stand and to change it's use and then look to try and rely on some bizarre notion of grandfather rights relating to existing terraces is ludicrous Peter.

There's no retrospection involved.

I am suggesting that the current basic format of the kop complies with the current 'guidelines' for standing as evidenced by the extracts from the Green Book.

If you don't want standing, well fine but don't look to building guidelines or regulations to justify your position. It's simply not supported.

Your reasoning is not supported by the guidelines or by the police. The only bar to standing in the top two divisions is the recommendations of the Taylor Report as enabled via the Football Supporters Act to control Hooliganism.

It may be a sorry indictment of football fans historic behaviour or the authorities continued attitude to them but it is not a life safety issue.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 12:37:37 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Eeyore

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There's no retrospection involved.

I am suggesting that the current basic format of the kop complies with the current 'guidelines' for standing as evidenced by the extracts from the Green Book.

If you don't want standing, well fine but don't look to building guidelines or regulations to justify your position. It's simply not supported.

Your reasoning is not supported by the guidelines or by the police. The only bar to standing in the top two divisions is the recommendations of the Taylor Report as enabled via the Football Supporters Act to control Hooliganism.

It may be a sorry indictment of football fans historic behaviour or the authorities continued attitude to them but it is not a life safety issue.


Stop peddling the outright lie that Taylor's decision to have all seater stadium's wasn't about safety because it is bullshit and wholly inappropriate considering what is happening at the moment. Taylor could not of made it any clearer that he thought all seater stadium's were safer.

From the final report.

62. It is obvious that sitting for the duration of the match is more comfortable than standing. It is also safer. When a spectator is seated he has his own small piece of territory in which he can feel reasonably secure. He will not be in close physical contact with those around him. He will not be jostled or moved about by swaying or surging. Small or infirm or elderly men and women as well as young children are not buffeted, smothered or unsighted by larger and more robust people as on the terraces. The seated spectator is not subject to pressure of numbers behind or around him during the match. He will not be painfully bent double over a crush barrier. Those monitoring numbers will know exactly how many are there without having to count them in or assess the density by visual impression. There will still, of course, be scope for crowd pressure on stairways whilst entering and especially when leaving, but involuntary and uncontrolled crowd movements occasioned by incidents in the game are effectively eliminated.

73. The superior safety of seating has already persuaded a number of clubs in the UK to convert their terraces to seating either totally or predominantly. Following Hillsborough, Liverpool have announced their intention to adapt their famous Kop to seating. In Scotland, Aberdeen's ground at Pittodrie became all-seater in 1978; Clydebank followed suit; St Johnstone's new ground at Perth is all-seated. Wembley stadium will early in 1990 accommodate 80,000 spectators, all-seated.


Those two paragraphs make it absolutely crystal clear what Taylor thought so stop trying to pretend otherwise.
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Offline CraigDS

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It's worth remember that is comparing seating to terracing (as we know it from the past, before you start on definitions Al), not to the safe standing methods being pushed by FSF.

Offline Eeyore

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It's worth remember that is comparing seating to terracing (as we know it from the past, before you start on definitions Al), not to the safe standing methods being pushed by FSF.

The point is that Peter keeps peddling the line that the recommendations from Taylor's final report over all seater stadiums had nothing to do with safety which is clearly wrong.

There are a few more myths that need clearing up.

1. It is a criminal offence to stand at matches in the top two tiers. Wrong it isn't a criminal matter it is a breach of the ground regulations.

2. If we were relegated twice then it would be okay to stand on a terrace at Anfield. Wrong as the legislation stands you cannot convert a seated area to a terrace.

3. The only thing preventing safe standing on the Kop is the requirement for all seater stadiums. Wrong the Club is opposed to safe standing, the HFSG are opposed too safe standing and converting the Kop to safe standing would push us over the 60k mark and require massive investment in infrastucture.

4. Rail seats in Germany were brought in so fans could stand at games. Wrong fans have always been able to stand at games in Germany. Safe standing has been brought in so it is easier to convert standing areas into all seater areas to comply with UEFA regs.

In short there is no prospect of standing at games in this country despite numerous campaigns. Pretty much every organisation involved in the game except for fans groups is against it.
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Offline CraigDS

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Pretty much every organisation involved in the game except for fans groups is against it.

That's a myth too, considering plenty of clubs (including PL clubs) are backing the campaign.

Offline Eeyore

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That's a myth too, considering plenty of clubs (including PL clubs) are backing the campaign.

Individual Clubs Yes but what about the FA, the Premier League, UEFA, the government or the Police ?

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Offline Peter McGurk

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Stop peddling the outright lie that Taylor's decision to have all seater stadium's wasn't about safety because it is bullshit and wholly inappropriate considering what is happening at the moment. Taylor could not of made it any clearer that he thought all seater stadium's were safer.

From the final report.

62. It is obvious that sitting for the duration of the match is more comfortable than standing. It is also safer. When a spectator is seated he has his own small piece of territory in which he can feel reasonably secure. He will not be in close physical contact with those around him. He will not be jostled or moved about by swaying or surging. Small or infirm or elderly men and women as well as young children are not buffeted, smothered or unsighted by larger and more robust people as on the terraces. The seated spectator is not subject to pressure of numbers behind or around him during the match. He will not be painfully bent double over a crush barrier. Those monitoring numbers will know exactly how many are there without having to count them in or assess the density by visual impression. There will still, of course, be scope for crowd pressure on stairways whilst entering and especially when leaving, but involuntary and uncontrolled crowd movements occasioned by incidents in the game are effectively eliminated.

73. The superior safety of seating has already persuaded a number of clubs in the UK to convert their terraces to seating either totally or predominantly. Following Hillsborough, Liverpool have announced their intention to adapt their famous Kop to seating. In Scotland, Aberdeen's ground at Pittodrie became all-seater in 1978; Clydebank followed suit; St Johnstone's new ground at Perth is all-seated. Wembley stadium will early in 1990 accommodate 80,000 spectators, all-seated.


Those two paragraphs make it absolutely crystal clear what Taylor thought so stop trying to pretend otherwise.

There is no lie. I have nothing to 'peddle'. I'm not selling anything. The implied disrespect is insulting.

Taylor's 'Final Report' is actually a second report and that report is about control of Hooliganism. Read it or just read the contents page. This is unequivocal even on an 'overview' of the two reports. The intention of each report is clearly and unequivocally stated.

The paragraphs you quote are a tiny fraction of the report and amount to assertions without evidence and indeed, compare seating with old style terracing. There are no grounds whatsoever in the report to say that standing is not safe. Simply assertions that is so and that it is 'less comfortable'.

There's a compelling argument that the second report is tacked on to the first as tantamount to an excuse to introduce draconian measures to control Hooliganism and for that reason alone.

Taylor did not envisage a system of 'safe standing'. He did not envisage massive prices hikes or that the recommendation for all seating would be made unsafe by persistent standing. Easy to say in hindsight but he got a lot wrong.

The evidence as evidenced in the Green Book is that standing in accordance with the guidelines is safe. There are also specific guidelines for conversion of seating to terraces in every sport in the country and all but two divisions of football because though standing is safe, that's where the problem of Hooliganism is or was.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 02:54:51 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline sminp

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converting the Kop to safe standing would push us over the 60k mark and require massive investment in infrastucture.


This is a key point that everyone seems to miss. Even if safe standing was brought in and the club was interested, we would still have this issue.
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Offline CraigDS

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Individual Clubs Yes but what about the FA, the Premier League, UEFA, the government or the Police ?

I wasn't arguing that point, but you said no organisation other than fan groups support it, but that's clearly not true as at least 7 PL clubs do, as well as the Football League who voted in favour.

Standing was banned when terracing was the only option, it is no longer the only option and the decision that standing (terracing) is not safe is no longer 100% valid and the fan groups/clubs are the first to come on board with this.

Offline CraigDS

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This is a key point that everyone seems to miss. Even if safe standing was brought in and the club was interested, we would still have this issue.

No one is ignoring it (it get mentioned in pretty much every standing thread and is acknowledged by everyone), but it would be nice if it was an option for the club to look at finding a solution for, both for increasing revenue and lowering ticket prices.

Offline Eeyore

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There is no lie. I have nothing to 'peddle'. I'm not selling anything. The implied disrespect is insulting.

Taylor's 'Final Report' is actually a second report and that report is about control of Hooliganism. Read it or just read the contents page. This is unequivocal even on an 'overview' of the two reports. The intention of each report is clearly and unequivocally stated.

The link to safety in the second report is tenuous indeed. The paragraphs you quote are a tiny fraction of the report and amount to assertions without evidence and indeed, compare seating with old style terracing. There are no grounds whatsoever in the report to say that standing is not safe. Simply assertions that is so and that it is 'less comfortable'.

There's a compelling argument that the second report is tacked on to the first as tantamount to an excuse to introduce draconian measures to control Hooliganism and for that reason alone.

Taylor did not envisage a system of 'safe standing'. He did not envisage massive prices hikes or that the recommendation for all seating would be made unsafe by persistent standing. Easy to say in hindsight but he got a lot wrong.

The evidence as evidenced in the Green Book is that standing in accordance with the guidelines is safe. There are also specific guidelines for conversion of seating to terraces in every sport in the country and all but two divisions of football because though standing is safe, that's where the problem of Hooliganism is or was.


You are talking absolute crap Peter.

Taylor made two reports an interim report which was published in August 1989 and the final report which was published in January 1990.

In his own words Taylor describes what the final report was about.

18. In Part I of this Report I state some lessons to be learnt from Hillsborough, examine the state of football today and propose a range of measures to give it a better future. In Part III consider, in detail, measures to improve safety at sports grounds. Part III is concerned with crowd control at sports grounds and various strategies for dealing with hooligans. In Part IVI consider the provisions of the 1989 Act regarding the national membership scheme. Finally, at the end of the text, I set out my Recommendations. So as to avoid confusion, I have not set out my Interim Recommendations for the purpose of comparison. Hardly any excisions have been made. Where I have decided to repeat or amend the Interim Recommendations, they are included in the single list of Final Recommendations. I hope this Report and the Final Recommendations may be instrumental in promoting better and safer conditions at sports grounds in the future.



To try and say that the final report wasn't about safety is quite frankly ludicrous.





« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 02:59:53 pm by Al 555 »
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Offline Peter McGurk

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You are talking absolute crap Peter.

Taylor made two reports an interim report which was published in August 1989 and the final report which was published in January 1990.

To try and say that the final report wasn't about safety is quite frankly ludicrous.

Ok, since we’re quoting chunks of the report, let’s look at this in a bit more detail.

You could say the contents of Part 1 Chapter 1 are the severe indictment of football fans historic behaviour to which I refered.

Note the heading of this chapter - Three Sombre Lessons after Hillsborough - the majority of the topics are directly about Hooliganism! Upfront. Start of the Report.

PART I - FOOTBALL: PRESENT AND FUTURE
CHAPTER 1 - THREE SOMBRE LESSONS AFTER HILLSBOROUGH 4
i. Previous Reports Unheeded 19
ii. "It Couldn't Happen Here" 24
iii. A Blight on Football 26
Old Grounds 27
Poor Facilities 29
Hooliganism 34
Segregation 37
What does Segregation Achieve? 4 5
Who are the Hooligans? 46
Alcohol 49

Poor Leadership 51

CHAPTER 2 - A BETTER FUTURE FOR FOOTBALL 12



Part II has Safety in the title but offers little 'Substantive Provisions' beyond an outline of the current status and regulation:

PART II - SAFETY AT SPORTS GROUNDS
CHAPTER 3 - THE FRAMEWORK 24
CHAPTER 4 - SUBSTANTIVE PROVISIONS 28


In fact Taylor distances himself from any specific recommendation on safety. He says Part II is meant to consider, in detail, measures to improve safety at sports grounds yet it’s interesting to note that although the Green Guide is given more force by the report, there are little detailed provisions to change it.



Now we get to the meat of the report. There are SEVEN chapter titles that need no further explanation

PART III - CROWD CONTROL AND HOOLIGANISM
CHAPTER 5 - POLICE PLANNING AND CONTROL 42
CHAPTER 6 - ALCOHOL 43
CHAPTER 7-TICKETS AND TOUTS 46
CHAPTER 8 - POLICE STRATEGIES AGAINST HOOLIGANS 48
CHAPTER 9-OFFENCES IN THE GROUND 50
CHAPTER 10 - CLUB STRATEGIES AGAINST HOOLIGANS 52
CHAPTER 11 - OTHER POSSIBLE MEASURES AGAINST HOOLIGANS 55



Part IV also majors on measures against Hooliganism under the act

PART IV - THE FOOTBALL SPECTATORS ACT 1989
CHAPTER 12 - OBJECT AND PROVISIONS OF THE ACT 58
CHAPTER 13 - THE NATIONAL MEMBERSHIP SCHEME 61
CHAPTER 14 - ARGUMENTS RAISED BY CRITICS OF THE SCHEME 65
CHAPTER 15 - DANGER OF CONGESTION OR DISORDER 67
CHAPTER 16 - WILL THE SCHEME WEED OUT HOOLIGANS? 72
CHAPTER 17 - POLICE RESOURCES 74
CHAPTER 18 - STRATEGIES AGAINST HOOLIGANISM - CONCLUSIONS 75




Finally

PART V - FINAL RECOMMENDATIONS

Where the recommendations for safety go no further than the subsequent revisions to the Green Guide and there is significant focus on all-seater stadia as a means of controlling Hooliganism.

As a matter of fact, the Green Guide with the alterations thus generated, maintains provisions and guidelines to this day (made mandatory via certification as recommended by the report), which includes standing and to which the kop could comply, with or without the rail system.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 04:34:53 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline iamrobk

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Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that safe standing is so completely and utterly different from terracing and what was happening pre-Taylor Report that I'm not sure what relevance the Taylor Report really has here.

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Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that safe standing is so completely and utterly different from terracing and what was happening pre-Taylor Report that I'm not sure what relevance the Taylor Report really has here.

Is exactly my thinking.

I've no doubt parts of it may still be relevant, but this is a report drawn up in 89/90, so nearly 25 years ago now, and is talking about a method of standing at matches which no one is suggesting is brought back into any stadium. It's also talking about a mindset and make up of the football going crowd which I don't think exist any longer.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Is exactly my thinking.

I've no doubt parts of it may still be relevant, but this is a report drawn up in 89/90, so nearly 25 years ago now, and is talking about a method of standing at matches which no one is suggesting is brought back into any stadium. It's also talking about a mindset and make up of the football going crowd which I don't think exist any longer.

Yet it is the reason we cannot stand at football matches in the top two divisions

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PART V - FINAL RECOMMENDATIONS

Where the recommendations for safety go ho further than the subsequent revisions to the Green Guide and there is significant focus on all-seater stadia as a means of controlling Hooliganism.

The 76 recommendations in their entirety.

PART V - FINAL RECOMMENDATIONS All-Seated Accommodation 1. The Secretary of State should ensure that spectators are admitted only to seated accommodation at matches played at sports grounds designated under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 in accordance with the timing set out in Recommendations 2 to 4 below.
2. Recommendation 1 should apply with effect from the start of the 1993/4 season at high-risk matches as defined under the UEFA Regulations set out in paragraph 82 above.
3. Subject to Recommendation 2 above, Recommendation 1 above should apply with effect from the start of the 1994/5 season to all matches at grounds in the first and second divisions of the Football League, the Premier Division of the Scottish Football League, and at national stadia, subject to a reasonable extension of time in the case of a club promoted to the second division of the Football League or the Premier Division of the Scottish Football League. Standing accommodation at these grounds should be reduced annually by 20% of the present standing capacity (such present standing capacity to be calculated according to Recommendation 8 below), the first 20% deduction being effective from August 1990 so as to eliminate standing by August 1994.
4. Subject to Recommendation 2 above, Recommendation 1 should apply with effect from the start of the 1999/2000 season to all matches at all other grounds designated under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975. Standing accommodation at these grounds should be reduced annually by 10% of the present standing capacity (such present standing capacity to be calculated according to Recommendation 8 below), the first 10% deduction being effective from August 1990 so as to eliminate standing by August 1999. Advisory Design Council 5. The Football Association and the Football League should establish an Advisory Design Council whose functions should be:
(a) to conduct and marshal research into the improvement and design of football stadia;
(b) to disseminate regularly such information and expertise as they acquire in this field to members of the Football League and, on request, to other football and sports clubs in England, Wales and Scotland.
National Inspectorate and Review Body 6. (a) If Part I of the Football Spectators Act 1989 is implemented, section 13 should be brought into force giving the Football Licensing Authority the functions and powers therein specified (power to review the discharge of functions by local authorities). If Part I of the Act is not implemented or is substantially delayed, other arrangements should be made for the discharge of the functions and powers in section 13 of the Act by the appointment of a body to exercise them.
(b) In either event, the body exercising those functions and powers in relation to association football should also be entrusted with similar functions and powers regarding the discharge by local authorities of their certifying and licensing functions in relation to other sports grounds and sports entertainments pursuant to the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 and Parts III and IV of the Fire Safety and Safety of Places of Sport Act 1987. Maximum Capacities for Terraces 7. Where a viewing terrace is divided into pens or areas which are self-contained, the Safety Certificate should specify the maximum number of spectators to be admitted to each such pen or area.
A pen or area is to be deemed "self-contained" notwithstanding that it has a gate or gates affording access to another pen or area and whether such gate or gates be open or shut.
8. Each figure for maximum capacity should be assessed in accordance with Chapter 16 of the Green Guide ("the Green Guide figure") subject to the following qualifications:-
(a) the maximum density permitted under paragraphs 221 and 222 of the Green Guide (when the terrace or viewing slope is in good condition) should be 47 not 54;
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(b) the minimum figure specified in paragraphs 221 and 222 (when the terrace or viewing slope materially deviates from the recommended guidelines, so as to constitute a possible hazard to individuals closely packed) should be 0 not 27;
(c) in arriving at "the Green Guide figure", proper and realistic allowance must be made for all factors which should reduce the permissible density including those specified in paragraphs 220 to 224 inclusive of the Green Guide.
9. Arrangements should be made:-
(a) to limit the number of spectators entering each self-contained pen or area to the maximum capacity figure assessed in accordance with Recommendation 8 above either electronically, mechanically, by a ticketing arrangement, by counting or otherwise, and
(b) to close off further access to such pen or area when its maximum capacity is about to be reached.
10. The maximum notional rate at which spectators can pass through a turnstile should be 660 persons per hour, not 750 per hour as stated in paragraph 47 of the Green Guide. The maximum rate for any particular turnstile must take full account of all circumstances including those given as examples in paragraph 47.
Filling and Monitoring Terraces 11. There should be a written statement of intent, agreed between the club and the police, setting out their respective functions as to crowd safety and control and in particular as to the filling of each self-contained pen or other standing area and the monitoring of spectators in each such pen or area to avoid overcrowding. Any variation of the document in respect of an individual match should be agreed in writing in advance.
12. (a) At each match, there should be on the perimeter track, for each self-contained pen or other standing area (subject to (b) below), a steward (if the club is monitoring that area) or a police officer (if the police are monitoring it) whose sole duty is to check crowd conditions in that area for possible overcrowding or distress throughout the period the area is occupied by spectators. Whoever is so appointed should be in addition to any other steward or police presence. He should have ready access to a police officer who can authorise access through gates to the pitch under Recommendation 20 below.
(b) This Recommendation need not be applied to any self-contained pen or other standing area where the spectators present, or reasonably to be expected, during a particular match do not exceed one third of the area's maximum permitted capacity, or 2,000, whichever is the lower.
Gangways 13. Gangways should be kept clear, in accordance with paragraphs 97 to 99 of the Green Guide. Gangways should be painted in a conspicuous colour whether they are sunk or not. The Safety Certificate should require that no standing is allowed in gangways and that they be painted.
Fences and Gates 14. All spikes or similar constructions on perimeter or radial fences, and any sections overhanging or returning inwards towards spectators, should be removed.
15. Perimeter fencing should be no higher than 2.2 metres, measured from the top of the fence to the lowest point at which spectators may stand, and including any wall or other foundations forming part of the perimeter boundary.
16. All police officers and stewards with duties in relation to the standing areas and especially those with duties under Recommendation 12 above, should be fully briefed and trained with regard to the recognition of crowd densities, to the recognition of signs of distress and to crowd dynamics. Training should include demonstrations at the ground and photographs, designed to enable stewards and officers to recognise different crowd densities.
17. There must be provided in any perimeter fence of a pen or other self-contained area sufficient gates of a minimum width of 1.1 metres to enable that pen or area to be evacuated onto the pitch in the time prescribed for an emergency evacuation of that pen or area.
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18. All gates in radial or perimeter fences of pens or other self-contained areas should be painted in a different colour from the rest of the fence and marked "Emergency Exit".
19. Where there is a perimeter fence in front of a pen or enclosure, all gates to the pitch should be kept fully open during the period when spectators are in the pen or enclosure, wherever those in command feel that this can safely be done. Whether they be fully open, partially open or closed, they should be kept unlocked throughout the period when the pen or enclosure is occupied.
20. Each gate in a perimeter fence affording access to the pitch from a pen or enclosure should be manned by a steward or by a police officer when the pen or enclosure is occupied. Whether such manning should be by a police officer or by a steward should be decided by the Police Commander. In either event, the Police Commander should appoint one or more police officers with power to authorise access through gates to the pitch immediately in the event of an emergency.
21. Suitable and sufficient cutting equipment should be provided by the club at each ground where there are perimeter fences to permit the immediate removal of enough fencing to release numbers of spectators if necessary. Agreement should be reached as to whether the equipment should be used by police, the fire brigade or stewards. Whoever is to use it should be trained to do so. Whether to use it should be a decision of a nominated senior police officer at the ground.
Crush Barriers 22. AH crush barriers should be visually inspected each year for signs of corrosion. Any barrier found to be affected by a significant degree of corrosion should be repaired or replaced.
23. The layout of barriers in each pen or terraced area should be reviewed immediately (if this has not already been done following the Interim Report) to ensure that it complies with the criteria contained in Chapter 9 of the Green Guide. If it does not, the assessment of the maximum capacity figure for that pen or terraced area, in accordance with Recommendation 8 above, should reflect the fact.
Safety Certificates 24. The Secretary of State should exercise his powers under either section 6(2) or section 15(A) of the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 so as to make mandatory in Safety Certificates those conditions specified in the original section 2(2) of the 1975 Act. So far as the original section 2(2)(b) is concerned "shall" should be substituted for "may".
25. In assessing these mandatory requirements in the Certificate for a particular ground, the local authority should follow the Green Guide criteria. Once that is done, the resultant figures and terms for that ground should be specified in the Safety Certificate and no variation from them should be permitted other than by formal revision.
26. Where a local authority incorporates any provision of the Green Guide into the Safety Certificate, othei than one within the scope of Recommendation 25 above, it should make clear whether that provision is to be complied with absolutely or with discretionary flexibility.
27. There should be an immediate review of each Safety Certificate (if this has not already been don< following the Interim Report) by the responsible local authority, which should consult the club in respect oi which the Certificate is issued, the police, the fire service, the ambulance service and the building authority Such a review should include an inspection of the stadium. Its object should be to ensure that the operative conditions of the Certificate are complied with and to add or substitute any condition shown to be necessary as t matter of urgency following the findings and Recommendations in this Report.
28. Any local authority within whose area there exists a sports ground designated under the 1975 Act foi which no Safety Certificate has yet been issued should proceed forthwith to remedy the situation.
29. Every Safety Certificate should be reviewed by the local authority at least once annually and eacl Certificate should require to be renewed annually.
30. Each local authority should review its arrangements for issuing, monitoring, enforcing, reviewing amending and renewing Safety Certificates (if this has not already been done following the Interin
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Report). Such review should require that there exists or is provided an accountable administrative structure whereby the functions of the local authority are regularly and effectively supervised by senior officers and elected members and decisions are properly taken in accordance with the local authority's rules.
31. To assist the local authority in exercising its functions, it should set up an Advisory Group (if this has not already been done) consisting of appropriate members of its own staff, representatives of the police, of the fire and ambulance services and of the building authority. The Advisory Group should consult representatives of the club and of a recognised supporters' organisation on a regular basis. The Advisory Group's terms of reference should encompass all matters concerned with crowd safety and should require regular visits to the ground and attendance at matches. The Advisory Group should have a chairman from the local authority, and an effective procedure. Its resolutions should be recorded and it should be required to produce regular written reports for consideration by the local authority.
Duties of Each Football Club 32. Each turnstile should be inspected and its potential rate of flow measured (if this has not already been done following the Interim Report). Thereafter, regular inspections should be made to ensure that each turnstile remains capable of admitting spectators at the rate anticipated.
33. The correlation between each viewing area in the stadium and the turnstiles serving it should be such as to ensure that all the spectators intended to be admitted to that viewing area can pass through the turnstiles within one hour. If that cannot be done, the capacity of that viewing area should be reduced accordingly. Since this Recommendation includes terms and conditions within the scope of the original section 2(2)(c)(i) of the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 it should be given effect in the Safety Certificate (see Recommendation 24 above).
34. Turnstiles should be closed when the permitted capacity of the area served by them is about to be reached and arrangements should be made to ensure quick and effective communication with turnstile operators for this purpose.
35. Closed circuit television should be so installed as to enable crowd densities outside the ground, within concourse areas and in pens and other standing areas, to be monitored before, throughout and at the end of a match.
36. All signposting for spectators both outside and inside the ground should be comprehensively reviewed (if this has not already been done following the Interim Report). It should, in relation to the arrangements for each match, be unambiguous, eye-catching, simple and clear and should be designed to ensure the rapid movement of spectators to their appropriate viewing areas. Any redundant signs should be removed.
37. Information on tickets should be unambiguous, simple and clear and should correlate absolutely with the information provided in respect of each match both outside and inside the ground. Retained ticket stubs should contain information necessary to guide spectators once inside the ground.
38. Information on tickets requesting spectators to be in position by a particular time should be reviewed (if this has not already been done following the Interim Report) by clubs in conjunction with the police to ensure that it corresponds with the planned arrangements for admitting spectators to the ground. 39. Clubs should consider maintaining a record on computer of ticket sales before the day of the match, for season tickets and tickets for all-ticket matches for seated areas, containing the names and addresses of those purchasing tickets.
40. All-ticket matches should be confined to those at which a capacity or near capacity crowd is expected. When a match has been designated all-ticket, clubs should not sell tickets at the match and should take steps to advise the spectators of both clubs accordingly.
41. Each club should consult with a recognised supporters' club as to the provision of pre-match entertainment aimed at attracting spectators to the ground in good time.
42. Clubs should recruit and retain sufficient competent stewards. They should be fit, active and robust, and preferably between the ages of 18 and 55. Clubs should ensure that stewards are fully trained, aware of their duties under Annex B of the Green Guide and under the statement of intent (see Recommendation 11) and able to perform them.
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43. The club s,hould provide a police control room which is:-
(a) well placed, so as to command a good view of the whole pitch and of the spectator area surrounding it;
(b) of sufficient size for the commander, his deputy and enough officers to operate the radios, telephones and CCTV screens. There should be space for others who may need from time to time to visit the room eg other senior officers, club management or a member of the emergency services;
(c) well equipped with CCTV, radio and telephone facilities and, where necessary, sound-proofed against excessive crowd noise.
It should be the duty of the club to provide a room and equipment to the satisfaction of the chief officer nominated under Recommendation 44 below.
Police Planning 44. The Chief Constable of each police force in whose area there is one designated sports ground or more should nominate a chief officer to liaise with the management of each football club and local authority concerned in respect of the safety and control of crowds.
45. The Operational Order for each match at a designated sports ground, and the pre-match briefing of all officers on duty there, should alert such officers to the importance of preventing any overcrowding and, if any is detected, of taking appropriate steps to remedy it.
46. The Operational Order for each match at a designated sports ground should enable the police to cope with any foreseeable pattern in the arrival of spectators at a match and in their departure. It should provide for sufficient reserves to enable rapid deployment of officers to be made at any point inside or outside the ground.
47. Police planning should provide that ticketless fans should not be allowed to enter a designated sports ground except in an emergency.
48. Arrest procedures inside and outside designated sports grounds should be reviewed so as to keep to the minimum the period during which an arresting officer is away from his post.
49. The option to postpone kick-off should be in the discretion of the officer in command at the ground. Crowd safety should be the paramount consideration in deciding whether to exercise it.
50. Consideration in consultation with the club should be given, especially for high-risk matches, to the possibility of an early kick-off or a Sunday fixture.
51. There should be available in the police control room the results of all closed circuit television monitoring outside and inside the ground and the record of any electronic or mechanical counting of numbers at turnstiles or of numbers admitted to any area of the ground. Officers in the control room should be skilled in the interpretation and use of these data.
52. Consideration should be given to the provision of a specific training course for senior officers presently acting as Police Commanders and those in line to do so. Such a course should include training in the basic strategy of policing football matches.
53. Police authorities should review the charges they make to clubs for the costs of policing inside grounds so as to ensure that realistic charges are made. The Home Office should take steps to ensure consistency of practice, subject to local discretion and the need to have regard to local circumstances.
Communications 54. There should be sufficient operators in the police control room to enable all radio transmissions to be received, evaluated and answered. The radio system should be such as to give operators in the control room priority over, and the capacity to override, others using the same channel. Additional channels should be used, where necessary, to prevent overcrowding of the airwaves.
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55. There should always be a command channel reserved solely for the Police Commander to communicate with his senior officers round the ground.
56. To complement radio communications, there should be a completely separate system of land lines with telephone links between the control room and key points at the ground.
57. Within the control room, there should be a public address system to communicate with individual areas outside and inside the ground, with groups of areas or with the whole ground. Important announcements should be preceded by a loud signal to catch the attention of the crowd despite a high level of noise in the ground. This arrangement should be prominently advertised on every programme sold for every match.
58. Use should be made where possible of illuminated advertising boards to address the crowd.
Co-ordination of Emergency Services 59. The police, fire and ambulance services should maintain through senior nominated officers regular liaison concerning crowd safety at each designated sports ground. 60. Before each match at a designated sports ground the police should ensure that the fire service and ambulance service are given full details about the event, including its venue, its timing, the number of spectators expected, their likely routes of entry and exit, and any anticipated or potential difficulties concerning the control or movement of the crowd. Such details should be readily available in the control rooms of each of the emergency services.
61. Lines of communication, whether by telephone or by radio, from the police control room to the local headquarters of all emergency services should be maintained at all times so that emergency calls can be made instantly.
62. Contingency plans for the arrival at each designated sports ground of emergency vehicles from all three services should be reviewed. They should include routes of access, rendezvous points, and accessibility within the ground itself.
63. Police officers posted at the entrances to the ground should be briefed as to the contingency plans for the arrival of emergency services and should be informed when such services are called as to where and why they are required.
First Aid, Medical Facilities and Ambulances 64. There should be at each sports ground at each match at least one trained first aider per 1,000 spectators. The club should have the responsibility for securing such attendance.
65. There should be at each designated sports ground one or more first aid rooms. The number of such rooms and the equipment to be maintained within them should be specified by the local authority after taking professional medical advice and should be made a requirement of every Safety Certificate.
66. (a) At every match where the number of spectators is expected to exceed 2,000, the club should employ a medical practitioner to be present and available to deal with any medical exigency at the ground. He should be trained and competent in advanced first aid. He should be present at the ground at least an hour before kick-off and should remain until half an hour after the end of the match. His whereabouts should be known to those in the police control room and he should be immediately contactable.
(b) At any match where the number of spectators is not expected to exceed 2,000, the club should make arrangements to enable a medical practitioner to be summoned immediately to deal with any medical exigency at the ground. He should be trained and competent in advanced first aid. The arrangements made should be known to those in the police control room.
67. At least one fully equipped ambulance from or approved by the appropriate ambulance authority should be in attendance at all matches with an expected crowd of 5,000 or more.
68. The number of ambulances to be in attendance for matches where larger crowds are expected should be specified by the local authority after consultation with the ambulance service and should be made a requirement of the Safety Certificate.
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69. A "major incident equipment vehicle", designed and equipped to deal with up to SO casualties, should be deployed in addition to other ambulance attendance at a match where a crowd in excess of 25,000 is expected.
Offences and Penalties 70. Consideration should be given to creating an offence of selling tickets for and on the day of a football match without authority from the home club to do so.
71. Each of the following activities at a designated sports ground should be made a specific offence:-
i. throwing a missile;
ii. chanting obscene or racialist abuse;
iii. going on the pitch without reasonable excuse.
72. Consideration should be given to extending the courts' powers to make attendance centre orders for football related offences on occasions of designated football matches. The provision should be capable of imposition on an offender aged 21 or over and subject to a maximum of 72 hours in the case of an offender aged 17 or over.
73. Consideration should be given to the use of electronic monitoring (tagging) in the sentencing of offenders convicted of football related offences.
Green Guide 74. As a matter of urgency, the Home Office should set up a body to revise the Green Guide in accordance with this Report, these Recommendations and the Report of the Technical Working Party (Appendix 3).
75. In any revision of the Green Guide, the values to be achieved by way of percentage recovery after the required loading tests on crush barriers should be specified. Acceptable values for various materials should be specified.
76. When the Green Guide is revised, the need to inspect crush barriers for possible corrosion should be specifically mentioned and emphasised.






If you seriously think that the vast majority of those 76 recommendations aren't about safety then you must get your tobacco from the Emirates.
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Offline CraigDS

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How many of them make any comment on the safe standing being talking about for potential future use Al?

Offline Peter McGurk

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If you seriously think that the vast majority of those 76 recommendations aren't about safety then you must get your tobacco from the Emirates.

And where within those does it refer to the mandatory provision of seating as being for the purposes of increasing safety? Certainly not under the 1975 act (item 1), which is used for the purposes of designation of the top two divisions only.

Also as a matter of fact most of those provisions either apply to standing terraces or apply whether standing or sitting.

Standing is safe. Go watch Exeter away in the FA Cup. You are safe to stand.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 04:45:05 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Yet it is the reason we cannot stand at football matches in the top two divisions

It is not Taylor made recommendations only. These were looked at by the technical working party then passed on to  legislators, legislation was drafted and then debated by Parliament. 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 05:05:53 pm by Al 555 »
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And where within those does it refer to the mandatory provision of seating as being for the purposes of increasing safety? Certainly not under the 1975 act (item 1), which is used for the purposes of designation of the top two divisions only.

Also as a matter of fact most of those provisions either apply to standing terraces or apply whether standing or sitting.

Standing is safe. Go watch Exeter away in the FA Cup. You are safe to stand.

Taylor made clear his rationale for all seater stadiums and made it abundantly clear that all seater stadiums were in his opinion safer. As for Exeter their terrace has a capacity of 4,000 so is a piss poor comparison.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 05:06:47 pm by Al 555 »
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It is not Taylor made recommendations only. These were looked at by the legislators, legislation was drafted and then debated by Parliament.

Give us a break. That's how law is made in this country.

The main recommendation of the report was to the use provisions in Acts of Parliament to exercise the Secretary of State's discretion to mandate that stadia be all-seating in the top two divisions.  And so it came to pass.

Not because standing is unsafe (that's still allowed in other divisions) but because of the need to control the hooliganism problem brought to a head so clearly in the report.

Taylor made clear his rationale for all seater stadiums and made it abundantly clear that all seater stadiums were in his opinion safer. As for Exeter their terrace has a capacity of 4,000 so is a piss poor comparison.

Opinion counts for nothing. Consideration of evidence is a different matter. Where is the evidence in the report that seating is safer than standing?

Wait a couple of years - Old Trafford will be a better comparison - or are you suggesting Exeter fans don't need to be as safe?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 05:10:38 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Eeyore

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Give us a break. That's how law is made in this country.

The main recommendation of the report was to the use provisions in Acts of Parliament to exercise the Secretary of State's discretion to mandate that stadia be all-seating in the top two divisions.  And so it came to pass.

Not because standing is unsafe (that's still allowed in other divisions) but because of the need to control the hooliganism problem brought to a head so clearly in the report.

You conveniently forgot to mention this Peter.

4. Subject to Recommendation 2 above, Recommendation 1 should apply with effect from the start of the 1999/2000 season to all matches at all other grounds designated under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975. Standing accommodation at these grounds should be reduced annually by 10% of the present standing capacity (such present standing capacity to be calculated according to Recommendation 8 below), the first 10% deduction being effective from August 1990 so as to eliminate standing by August 1999.

So if the Taylor report had been followed blindly as you are suggesting there wouldn't be standing at any grounds.
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Offline Eeyore

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Give us a break. That's how law is made in this country.

The main recommendation of the report was to the use provisions in Acts of Parliament to exercise the Secretary of State's discretion to mandate that stadia be all-seating in the top two divisions.  And so it came to pass.

Not because standing is unsafe (that's still allowed in other divisions) but because of the need to control the hooliganism problem brought to a head so clearly in the report.

Opinion counts for nothing. Consideration of evidence is a different matter. Where is the evidence in the report that seating is safer than standing?

Wait a couple of years - Old Trafford will be a better comparison - or are you suggesting Exeter fans don't need to be as safe?


Are you for real, are you seriously suggesting that Taylor didn't consider the evidence before he recommended the introduction of all seater stadia.
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Offline CraigDS

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Al - how much of the report focuses on the situation now, 25 years later - you know with a changed demographic that attends matches, general change in match going mentality, and more importantly the proposal for standing that DOESN'T USE terracing of 25 years ago?

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Are you for real, are you seriously suggesting that Taylor didn't consider the evidence before he recommended the introduction of all seater stadia.

Since when did 'obvious' constitute evidence?

62. It is obvious that sitting for the duration of the match is more comfortable than standing. It is also
safer.



You conveniently forgot to mention this Peter.

4. Subject to Recommendation 2 above, Recommendation 1 should apply with effect from the start of the 1999/2000 season to all matches at all other grounds designated under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975. Standing accommodation at these grounds should be reduced annually by 10% of the present standing capacity (such present standing capacity to be calculated according to Recommendation 8 below), the first 10% deduction being effective from August 1990 so as to eliminate standing by August 1999.

So if the Taylor report had been followed blindly as you are suggesting there wouldn't be standing at any grounds.

(1)The Secretary of State may by order designate as [F1a sports ground] requiring a certificate under this Act (in this Act referred to as a “safety certificate”) [F1any sports ground] which in his opinion has accommodation for more than 10,000 spectators.

So yeah. Exeter would still have been safe.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 05:26:59 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Eeyore

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Al - how much of the report focuses on the situation now, 25 years later - you know with a changed demographic that attends matches, general change in match going mentality, and more importantly the proposal for standing that DOESN'T USE terracing of 25 years ago?

That is a fair point Craig and safe standing needs careful consideration and meaningful trials. What we shouldn't have is people trying to present a fait accompli with revised capacities etc until proper trials have been conducted.
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Offline CraigDS

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That is a fair point Craig and safe standing needs careful consideration and meaningful trials. What we shouldn't have is people trying to present a fait accompli with revised capacities etc until proper trials have been conducted.

Of course people, as fans, are going to discuss possible capacities, both given we aren't the ones having to debate and decide if it will be allowed, and the fact that there are clear examples abroad of it's use.

To suggest we can't and shouldn't discuss it is ridiculous.