Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)

[free_at_last]

It may be a lot to ask in this money orientated day and age but I just hope we can perform this redevelopment from a fan's  point of view. Us oldies all remember the Kop of the 60's - when the results almost didn't matter - it was about the cult of Shankly and the Kopite believers and the Anfield experience forged the Liverpool unity that has persevered until today(here in OZ the Liverpool hats and scarves appear on the street when we are NOT doing well).
 I just think we have a massive opportunity - we are growing the stadium by a third - imagine if we harness that to enclose the atmosphere and grow it(I think our rivals will be looking on with trepidation). It feeds on itself and you don't have to be there in person to experience it now - it must be
invaluable to to sell that to a worldwide audience so the business wins as well.
I'm not an architect so I'm not sure how we do that - Peter has mentioned a standing Kop - looking back, what disasters were we lucky to avoid? - great to come back from 2 goals down against Everton but you look back and wonder about the hysteria and the danger that nobody saw(even after Ibrox). I can't see us going back there after our history and yet I still hope for it(in my safe position half a world away).
 Maybe it's just nostalgia but I still see that unity and YNWA belonging as being a huge part of being a Liverpool fan. People complain about the atmosphere now but it's about getting people to EXPECT an atmosphere - build it big but in close - play the songs in a predefined order so everybody knows what's coming - play the 60's songs FFS if it gets fans singing from the same hymn sheet.
A bit simplistic and idealistic maybe but it's worked for us before - such a huge loss if it's consigned to
history.

[Peter McGurk]

It may be a lot to ask in this money orientated day and age but I just hope we can perform this redevelopment from a fan's  point of view. Us oldies all remember the Kop of the 60's - when the results almost didn't matter - it was about the cult of Shankly and the Kopite believers and the Anfield experience forged the Liverpool unity that has persevered until today(here in OZ the Liverpool hats and scarves appear on the street when we are NOT doing well).
 I just think we have a massive opportunity - we are growing the stadium by a third - imagine if we harness that to enclose the atmosphere and grow it(I think our rivals will be looking on with trepidation). It feeds on itself and you don't have to be there in person to experience it now - it must be
invaluable to to sell that to a worldwide audience so the business wins as well.
I'm not an architect so I'm not sure how we do that - Peter has mentioned a standing Kop - looking back, what disasters were we lucky to avoid? - great to come back from 2 goals down against Everton but you look back and wonder about the hysteria and the danger that nobody saw(even after Ibrox). I can't see us going back there after our history and yet I still hope for it(in my safe position half a world away).
 Maybe it's just nostalgia but I still see that unity and YNWA belonging as being a huge part of being a Liverpool fan. People complain about the atmosphere now but it's about getting people to EXPECT an atmosphere - build it big but in close - play the songs in a predefined order so everybody knows what's coming - play the 60's songs FFS if it gets fans singing from the same hymn sheet.
A bit simplistic and idealistic maybe but it's worked for us before - such a huge loss if it's consigned to
history.

Safe Standing is nothing like the old kop. It's nothing like the old terraces. Some of us old lags would even be disappointed with it in that respect. Have a look http://petermcgurk.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/safe-standing.html.

But getting a young crowd in with prices they can afford is the only way back to making Anfield that fortress of support again. No amount of community singing (or plastic-flag type organisation like it) is going to make that happen.

[free_at_last]

Safe Standing is nothing like the old kop. It's nothing like the old terraces. Some of us old lags would even be disappointed with it in that respect. Have a look http://petermcgurk.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/safe-standing.html.

But getting a young crowd in with prices they can afford is the only way back to making Anfield that fortress of support again. No amount of community singing (or plastic-flag type organisation like it) is going to make that happen.

Has that actually been installed anywhere ? I just can't see a whole KOP set up like that today(even if it was safe it wouldn't LOOK safe). I could imagine a central swathe or a lower/higher tier but not the whole thing.
By the way I wasn't suggesting an organised community singing. In the old KOP we knew by instinct
what was coming up next - but it was also an evolving ritual.

[Peter McGurk]

Has that actually been installed anywhere ? I just can't see a whole KOP set up like that today(even if it was safe it wouldn't LOOK safe). I could imagine a central swathe or a lower/higher tier but not the whole thing.
By the way I wasn't suggesting an organised community singing. In the old KOP we knew by instinct
what was coming up next - but it was also an evolving ritual.

You're telling me a barrier every TWO rows doesn't LOOK safe? (plus all the extra exits)

As you know, back in the day there was about 20 rows between barriers and huge sways and surges as a result. The nearest exits were at the back and side of the kop - not 7 or 8m away.

The only surge here is if the one bloke behind gets a bit over-animated. No mate this is nothing like the old days. This is safe as safe goes. It's safer than the safe guide for standing in the UK regulations (and safer than standing in a seating area which is what happens now).

Germany.

[B0151?]

But getting a young crowd in with prices they can afford is the only way back to making Anfield that fortress of support again. No amount of community singing (or plastic-flag type organisation like it) is going to make that happen.

Simple as that for me. Shame I can't imagine it happening.

[Peter McGurk]

Simple as that for me. Shame I can't imagine it happening.

The second (or so-called 'final') Taylor Report was not about Hillsborough as such. It recommended the introduction of all-seater stadiums in order to give the police the means to control hooliganism. He believed that ticket prices need not rise dramatically.

The age-ing of the crowd (these are the people who can afford it), the diminution of atmosphere (too many of us quiet old folk sitting on our hands) and the lack of passion in the crowd is a direct result.

If it's considered important at all, the crowd comes third behind TV audiences and commercial income. For some clubs it's just a back-drop for the TV (City springs to mind).

Some will be happy for that to continue but where's the next generation coming from and where's the belonging to a club gone?

[Eeyore]

It's a nice idea Peter but what is in it for the Club creating cheap standing places may encourage more local people but it may also make the more expensive seats far harder to sell. in a World of supply and demand does it actually make economic sense to massively increase the number of cheap seats. What is the point of increasing attendances if you are not increasing the amount of money you take.

 

[Peter McGurk]

It's a nice idea Peter but what is in it for the Club creating cheap standing places may encourage more local people but it may also make the more expensive seats far harder to sell. in a World of supply and demand does it actually make economic sense to massively increase the number of cheap seats. What is the point of increasing attendances if you are not increasing the amount of money you take.

The club is in control. It can decide to sell 51,000 all-seating or 63,000 with the kop standing. It can match the supply to the demand - match by match.

And 63,000 makes more money than 51,000. Not from the gate receipts perhaps but from bars and eats and 'Albert Village' and sports bars and...

And it secures future business. The next generation. Because right now there's less and less getting into the match-going habit.

And the vibe is vital. Anfield as a spectacle sells around the world - not just what goes on on the pitch. It's part of the family and part of the 'brand'.

[CraigDS]

A packed and loud Kop would aid in selling the corporate seats IMO.

What better to take clients to go and see than the famous Kop in full song?!

[Peter McGurk]

A packed and loud Kop would aid in selling the corporate seats IMO.

What better to take clients to go and see than the famous Kop in full song?!

Indeed. More sells more.

[CraigDS]

The question is would creating a standing and lower priced Kop create new demand above and beyond the 60k sweet spot we are aiming to provide for now?

As in if they build to 60k now with the Main and Anny Rd ends, would changing the Kop in the future create new demand amoung fans who couldn't afford the current ST prices and allow us to really maximise income with a very big capacity?

[Peter McGurk]

The question is would creating a standing and lower priced Kop create new demand above and beyond the 60k sweet spot we are aiming to provide for now?

As in if they build to 60k now with the Main and Anny Rd ends, would changing the Kop in the future create new demand amoung fans who couldn't afford the current ST prices and allow us to really maximise income with a very big capacity?

Of course it would - it would get the kids in and the many, many others who can't get to 19 matches a season.

And at any stage of the process the club can address that as either a change of direction or as an expansion of the existing direction - all subject to demand.

But yes and on that basis perhaps 60,000 all-seating and 72,000 with kop standing would not be so daft in the future. Maybe.

[CraigDS]

Does give some interesting possibilities in the future.

Can't see standing being sorted in the next 5 years min, but if we can look to expand seating during that time to deal with the mid-high price range demand, and then look at standing to supply the lower priced demand it could be a happy outcome all round.

[Peter McGurk]

Does give some interesting possibilities in the future.

Can't see standing being sorted in the next 5 years min, but if we can look to expand seating during that time to deal with the mid-high price range demand, and then look at standing to supply the lower priced demand it could be a happy outcome all round.

Yes.

[Eeyore]

The club is in control. It can decide to sell 51,000 all-seating or 63,000 with the kop standing. It can match the supply to the demand - match by match.

And 63,000 makes more money than 51,000. Not from the gate receipts perhaps but from bars and eats and 'Albert Village' and sports bars and...

And it secures future business. The next generation. Because right now there's less and less getting into the match-going habit.

And the vibe is vital. Anfield as a spectacle sells around the world - not just what goes on on the pitch. It's part of the family and part of the 'brand'.

If you are trying to encourage more local youngsters wouldn't the bars and eats be more likely to be of the sausage and chips and a couple of cans a lager on the Albert Village wall variety.

[Peter McGurk]

If you are trying to encourage more local youngsters wouldn't the bars and eats be more likely to be of the sausage and chips and a couple of cans a lager on the Albert Village wall variety.

Yes but it would be better for the club that the wall belongs to the club.

How much do you reckon most people spend on going to the match in total and how much do you reckon goes to the club. 50%? 70%? Whatever - it's an appreciable difference.

[CraigDS]

If the club looked at pricing the beers (and other stuff) and little more sensibly then they would probably sell a lot more.

[Eeyore]

Yes but it would be better for the club that the wall belongs to the club.

How much do you reckon most people spend on going to the match in total and how much do you reckon goes to the club. 50%? 70%? Whatever - it's an appreciable difference.

I am all for encouraging working class young fans, Students and kids Peter the problem is that the game has moved away from that into a middle class sport with middle class pricing. Why would a business want to risk turning the Sport into a working class game again when that is not the demographic that makes the most money.

Corporate sponsors wouldn't of come within a million miles of Football in the 70's and 80's when it was a working class game so why would a business want to return to that ethos. Are what the Corporates would see as young working class scallies the demographic the Club is really targeting.

[CraigDS]

I am all for encouraging working class young fans, Students and kids Peter the problem is that the game has moved away from that into a middle class sport with middle class pricing. Why would a business want to risk turning the Sport into a working class game again when that is not the demographic that makes the most money.

Corporate sponsors wouldn't of come within a million miles of Football in the 70's and 80's when it was a working class game so why would a business want to return to that ethos. Are what the Corporates would see as young working class scallies the demographic the Club is really targeting.

Where are the next generation of middle class and corporate working supporters going to come from?

No hard in catering for all demographics. Nice fancy corporates in prime seats in Main and Centenary, seated 'normal' seats for the middle classes, and standing lower priced seats in the Kop for the working classes.

There were a multitude of reasons in the 70s and 80s why sponsors wouldn't come within a million miles of football, 90% of these wouldn't exist if the club attracted a more working class demographic at the club.

[Peter McGurk]

I am all for encouraging working class young fans, Students and kids Peter the problem is that the game has moved away from that into a middle class sport with middle class pricing. Why would a business want to risk turning the Sport into a working class game again when that is not the demographic that makes the most money.

Corporate sponsors wouldn't of come within a million miles of Football in the 70's and 80's when it was a working class game so why would a business want to return to that ethos. Are what the Corporates would see as young working class scallies the demographic the Club is really targeting.

The problem was (and might expected by some to be) - Hooliganism. As sponsors at the time, the Milk Marketing Board dropped the league like a stone after Heysel.

The introduction of all-seater stadium, tickets with names on, addresses, cameras, more stewards, has (largely) nailed Hooliganism as we knew it in the 80s. It was either all that or ID cards.

There's nothing in the rail safe standing system that opens the door to that coming back. Everyone still has a pre-bought ticket. Everyone is still known. Everyone is still closely watched.

[Zlen]

Given the site constraints and working during the season too - two years for each stand and each stand staggered to start one year after the other.

Thanks for the reply, seems longer then I expected but then what the hell do I know about reconstructing stadiums.

[Peter McGurk]

Thanks for the reply, seems longer then I expected but then what the hell do I know about reconstructing stadiums.

I can't tell you which one but that is the advice of a leading stadium contractor.

[Nessy76]

Standing at Anfield is not going to happen any time soon.

There are too many people dead-set against it, and for the very best of reasons.

Whatever the safety situation, even if it is safer than current arrangements, you are simply not going to convince a lot of these people, and, in my opinion, it isn't really right to even try and do so.

If it happens at every other ground in the league, then its a possibility, but Liverpool simply cannot be at the forefront of this.

[Peter McGurk]

Standing at Anfield is not going to happen any time soon.

There are too many people dead-set against it, and for the very best of reasons.

Whatever the safety situation, even if it is safer than current arrangements, you are simply not going to convince a lot of these people, and, in my opinion, it isn't really right to even try and do so.

If it happens at every other ground in the league, then its a possibility, but Liverpool simply cannot be at the forefront of this.

I agree that it is not right to think about convincing anyone who has lost someone and is completely against it. I would never try. There's nothing you could say that will make it any better.

I don't think we can piggy-back anyone else's direction. This club is about the fans and the ordinary fans and seating for all is taking the game away from those fans. This is something this club should lead on.

But the choice is being withheld from us - not for those 'good reasons', not out of respect, not for safety - but for the good reason of controlling hooliganism. As I said, at the time it was either seating or ID cards. In that sense, they're one and the same. But now, there's a better way.

Standing didn't cause Hillsborough. You, me and the guy standing next to me didn't cause Hillsborough. We all know what did. To suggest otherwise only supports those who think they really know what the 'real' cause was.

Outside of our football bubble, there's plenty Bernard Ingham's around believe you me.

[No Appreciation of Liverpool Opposition]

Standing at Anfield is not going to happen any time soon.

There are too many people dead-set against it, and for the very best of reasons.

Whatever the safety situation, even if it is safer than current arrangements, you are simply not going to convince a lot of these people, and, in my opinion, it isn't really right to even try and do so.

If it happens at every other ground in the league, then its a possibility, but Liverpool simply cannot be at the forefront of this.

pretty much. increasing capacity to 60,000 should make cheaper seats in the long term hopefully.

[Peter McGurk]

pretty much. increasing capacity to 60,000 should make cheaper seats in the long term hopefully.

Dream on. Building seats costs a lot more money than fitting standing places.

And the prices cat is out of the bag. There has to be a radical re-think that gives the clubs the money they need to compete and gives greater access to the 'ordinary fan'.

[Vulmea]

The problem was (and might expected by some to be) - Hooliganism. As sponsors at the time, the Milk Marketing Board dropped the league like a stone after Heysel.

The introduction of all-seater stadium, tickets with names on, addresses, cameras, more stewards, has (largely) nailed Hooliganism as we knew it in the 80s. It was either all that or ID cards.

There's nothing in the rail safe standing system that opens the door to that coming back. Everyone still has a pre-bought ticket. Everyone is still known. Everyone is still closely watched.

I'm not sure these are the reasons, as I understand it the prime reason the Police dont want standing is psychological - a sitting crowd is easier to handle and manipulate than a standing one because its less disposed to aggression and confrontation. The atmosphere at grounds has deliberately been cooled down.

I suspect standing will eventually be back because there is a demand from the punters for it - the hypocrisy of standing at european games and away games shows it - the experience of standing to watch is simply more enjoyable for the very reasons the police dont want it. Money will talk eventually though.

I must admit I find the idea of the Kop acting like performing seals for some rich corporates offensive. Come see the working class, look what they do, isn't it fascinating ..........and they talk with a funny accent dont you know.........

[Peter McGurk]

I'm not sure these are the reasons, as I understand it the prime reason the Police dont want standing is psychological - a sitting crowd is easier to handle and manipulate than a standing one because its less disposed to aggression and confrontation. The atmosphere at grounds has deliberately been cooled down.

The reason for all-seating is to control hooliganism [as stated in the Taylor Report]

And there's a big difference between watching a performing seal and participating in a special night at Anfield. Everyone is part of it. Even watching it on the box.

[CraigDS]

I must admit I find the idea of the Kop acting like performing seals for some rich corporates offensive. Come see the working class, look what they do, isn't it fascinating ..........and they talk with a funny accent dont you know.........

I'm not sure that's the right way to look at it.

For one its talking about getting it back to how it once was for other reasons than to bring in corporates. Secondly the Kop has always been a big draw to visitors - hence you see people getting pics towards it, etc. all the time. It what happens when something is 'different' to the normal which the Kop once was.

Also, it's not just scousers who will be on it, and plenty of scousers will be in the 'normal' seats and in the corporates too so looking at it as a scousers in the Kop and everyone else in other seats doesn't ring true to me.

[owens_2k]

Whats steps would need to be taken in order for safe standing to be brought back into English football? And what are the chances of it ever happening?

[Vulmea]

The reason for all-seating is to control hooliganism [as stated in the Taylor Report]

And there's a big difference between watching a performing seal and participating in a special night at Anfield. Everyone is part of it. Even watching it on the box.

thats what I said - the point I tried to make and clearly failed is that control is not simply managed by seat numbers and id as you alluded to - its also managed by people sitting down and their mental state being less aggressive and less volatile and its the main reason for the police not wanting to allow standing to be re-introduced. People are easier to manage when sitting down.

one of the beauties of the old ground was that everybody was in it together - one of the reasons there was no clock and no big screens was ebcause it was all about what was on the pitch - corporate clients bringing their wallets to watch the locals create an atmosphere wasn't really on the agenda - participating in - you really believe that?

Money rules though.

I'm not sure that's the right way to look at it.

For one its talking about getting it back to how it once was for other reasons than to bring in corporates. Secondly the Kop has always been a big draw to visitors - hence you see people getting pics towards it, etc. all the time. It what happens when something is 'different' to the normal which the Kop once was.

Also, it's not just scousers who will be on it, and plenty of scousers will be in the 'normal' seats and in the corporates too so looking at it as a scousers in the Kop and everyone else in other seats doesn't ring true to me.

I didn't know there was a right way? I thought it was just about pinions?

Getting back to how it was you'd need a time machine, we move on. You can't just select the nice bits - the atmosphere was created because of the circumstances people lived and worked in, because of the conditions on the terraces. You can create a better atmosphere at the ground, the Germans have shown that but it shouldn't be about reproducing anything it should be about building something for the here and now.

If the away support want to come and admire thats ok - mutual respect I can go with that - its a different ball game when your performing on demand as some form of vacarious involvement for the corporate boxes.

the jibe at the scouse accent was to emphasise the point - it wasn't to suggest the kop is only populated by scousers merely to demonstrate the attitude /disenagement of those engaged in the voyeurism.

If I have to explain the distaste its probably not worth it.

[CraigDS]

I didn't know there was a right way? I thought it was just about pinions?

Of course it is about opinions, hence me saying I'm not sure that is the right way to look at it.

Getting back to how it was you'd need a time machine, we move on. You can't just select the nice bits - the atmosphere was created because of the circumstances people lived and worked in, because of the conditions on the terraces. You can create a better atmosphere at the ground, the Germans have shown that but it shouldn't be about reproducing anything it should be about building something for the here and now.

No one is talking about getting back to exactly how it was, I'm not sure that has been suggested has it? No one wants that really, and it just wouldn't happen in this day and age after all that's gone on to try and wipe out that form of terracing. This isn't even about bringing terracing back at all, in any way, shape or form. It is about bringing back cheaper priced tickets, making it available to more fans, and hopefully bringing back a better atmosphere in the Kop to what it once was.

It may not get back to the heights it once was, but it could be about 1,000,000 better than it is currently.

If the away support want to come and admire thats ok - mutual respect I can go with that - its a different ball game when your performing on demand as some form of vacarious involvement for the corporate boxes.

It's not just the away support. Our own fans covert the Kop, not just those coming for the one match but those who stood on it for years do. No one is suggesting that it should be performing on demand at all. The point being made was that a Kop in full voice is something people would pay to come and see even without the game being on. Christ I've been a ST holder for 20 years and even I'd still pay to come and watch 90 minutes of a Kop in full voice.

The corps paying to see that is a happy coincidence of getting the Kop back in form, not the reason for doing so.

the jibe at the scouse accent was to emphasise the point - it wasn't to suggest the kop is only populated by scousers merely to demonstrate the attitude /disenagement of those engaged in the voyeurism.

If I have to explain the distaste its probably not worth it.

It doesn't emphasize any point though, as there really isn't a point along those lines to be made from what I can see.

[Peter McGurk]

thats what I said - the point I tried to make and clearly failed is that control is not simply managed by seat numbers and id as you alluded to - its also managed by people sitting down and their mental state being less aggressive and less volatile and its the main reason for the police not wanting to allow standing to be re-introduced. People are easier to manage when sitting down.

one of the beauties of the old ground was that everybody was in it together - one of the reasons there was no clock and no big screens was ebcause it was all about what was on the pitch - corporate clients bringing their wallets to watch the locals create an atmosphere wasn't really on the agenda - participating in - you really believe that?

Money rules though.

I think you’re arguing for arguing’s sake there. The point is: sitting down, names addresses, whatever, is all about controlling Hooliganism - not necessarily safety and not out of respect for the 96. Reading the report, anyone can see that the second half is primarily about hooliganism - not Hillsborough.

Don’t you see? If all-seater stadiums were all about safety and Hillsborough and not having it happen again, Taylor would have been clearly pointing at standing as the cause of Hillsborough. Which it most definitely was not.

And come on. What’s the problem with some bloke being able to afford a party of ten for a special occasion? Or even every match? It doesn’t turn him into a stove-pipe capitalist. And pretty much 90% of the crowd will be paying 'normal' prices anyway.

I didn't know there was a right way? I thought it was just about pinions?

Getting back to how it was you'd need a time machine, we move on. You can't just select the nice bits - the atmosphere was created because of the circumstances people lived and worked in, because of the conditions on the terraces. You can create a better atmosphere at the ground, the Germans have shown that but it shouldn't be about reproducing anything it should be about building something for the here and now.

If the away support want to come and admire thats ok - mutual respect I can go with that - its a different ball game when your performing on demand as some form of vacarious involvement for the corporate boxes.

the jibe at the scouse accent was to emphasise the point - it wasn't to suggest the kop is only populated by scousers merely to demonstrate the attitude /disenagement of those engaged in the voyeurism.

If I have to explain the distaste its probably not worth it.

This isn’t about going back to the old days. This is about getting access to the match at prices we can afford. If the here and now is about studiously studying tactics with your gob shut then so be it - but I very much doubt it.

[Snaily]

Hi Peter

I’m new to the forum, but have been very interested in your thoughts on the stadium and the area and would like your opinion on a few of my thoughts from someone who is an irregular visitor to anfield.

I assume the development of the main stand and annie road will be similar in shape and size to that at st james park, do you think the club will take the opportunity to extend the pitch and surround to make it suitable for UEFA finals?  I feel it would be a wasted opportunity not to.

Is a two tier corner stand between the annie and centenary likely and so is 60 to 65 thousand the most likely final capacity figure.

What is the potential for creating a retail/bar/restaurant area around gilman street with a public square adjacent to the new main stand.  Following on from this can some shops on WBR be demolished to facilitate a potential future 5000 capacity increase to the kop, including rerouting WBR.  Maybe it romanticism but I feel the kop should be a significant section of the stadium and not be dwarfed by the other stands.  A 17000 seat kop would be an awesome sight.

Should the club use the view over the park at the annie road to create some high level bars and restaurants and possible roof top terraces that would be popular attractions all week not just on match day.

Finally, What is the likelhood of reopening or creating new rail stations to service both anfield and goodison and improve the commute to the town centre and dockland redevelopments?

Thanks 

[Peter McGurk]

Hi Peter

I’m new to the forum, but have been very interested in your thoughts on the stadium and the area and would like your opinion on a few of my thoughts from someone who is an irregular visitor to anfield.

I assume the development of the main stand and annie road will be similar in shape and size to that at st james park, do you think the club will take the opportunity to extend the pitch and surround to make it suitable for UEFA finals?  I feel it would be a wasted opportunity not to.

Is a two tier corner stand between the annie and centenary likely and so is 60 to 65 thousand the most likely final capacity figure.

What is the potential for creating a retail/bar/restaurant area around gilman street with a public square adjacent to the new main stand.  Following on from this can some shops on WBR be demolished to facilitate a potential future 5000 capacity increase to the kop, including rerouting WBR.  Maybe it romanticism but I feel the kop should be a significant section of the stadium and not be dwarfed by the other stands.  A 17000 seat kop would be an awesome sight.

Should the club use the view over the park at the annie road to create some high level bars and restaurants and possible roof top terraces that would be popular attractions all week not just on match day.

Finally, What is the likelhood of reopening or creating new rail stations to service both anfield and goodison and improve the commute to the town centre and dockland redevelopments?

Thanks

see link below

.

[Peter McGurk]

Whats steps would need to be taken in order for safe standing to be brought back into English football? And what are the chances of it ever happening?

The Licensing Authority (the FA) have to drop their requirement for all-seater stadiums - in the top two divisions only. Everyone else can still stand at football matches (and all other sports).

The national building regulations already permit standing in any spectator facility whatever the sport or division.

[Vulmea]

It doesn't emphasize any point though, as there really isn't a point along those lines to be made from what I can see.

it did you just can't see the point - as I said if you can't see it we could discuss it for a long time without getting anywhere

the idea of getting kids in and families and making it affordable appears laudable - it was once upon a time these very people's club and their game now its a charitable act to let them in

the idea of corporate boxes and high price tickets is in line with modern thinking but its an anathema to what the game used to be

its difficult to argue with from a business perspective and thats what football is now - business and the supporters are customers - yeyeye its always been a busines but for decades the business of making money was secondary to that of winning -

far from arguing for arguments sake - its just a different perspective than the lens you and Peter appear to be looking through - how do you recreate an atmosphere where everybody is in it together, when everybody contributes and everybody takes a share of the rewards - do you do it with gimmicks or do you doing it by everybody contributing everybody sharing the rewards - its socialism with a small s - its the club belonging to the supporters, its those supporters being part of the club, being invested in it not apart from it, not  a side show or a tourist trap.

and its not about where your from - its beautiful that fans in the far east can feel just as much a part of the club as a lad from L4 - we are a global community but somehow thats become a global brand- we are the greatest club in the world and somehow that's an investment opportunity

the two dont scan in terms of 'getting back to what it once was' - what it once was was everybody in it together - how did Shanks put it again - you could probably quote it better than me

"The Kop is exclusive, an institution, and if you are a member of the Kop you feel like you are a member of a society. You've got thousands of friends around you and they are all united and loyal.'  This wasn't created by a marketing strategy, it wasn't contrived to make profits - it wasn't based on cheap seats, a scarf and a song - it was a mass of people who grew up togther with the same beliefs and ideals and dreams.

cheap access for the grockels - there should only be grockels  - it should be their game, their club - do that and you get your atmosphere back - get that and you'll see supporters roaring and hollering and belting out songs

I think you’re arguing for arguing’s sake there. The point is: sitting down, names addresses, whatever, is all about controlling Hooliganism - not necessarily safety and not out of respect for the 96. Reading the report, anyone can see that the second half is primarily about hooliganism - not Hillsborough.

Don’t you see? If all-seater stadiums were all about safety and Hillsborough and not having it happen again, Taylor would have been clearly pointing at standing as the cause of Hillsborough. Which it most definitely was not.

And come on. What’s the problem with some bloke being able to afford a party of ten for a special occasion? Or even every match? It doesn’t turn him into a stove-pipe capitalist. And pretty much 90% of the crowd will be paying 'normal' prices anyway.

This isn’t about going back to the old days. This is about getting access to the match at prices we can afford. If the here and now is about studiously studying tactics with your gob shut then so be it - but I very much doubt it.

no the point is the Police know that if the crowd is sitting down it makes it more manageable - nowt to do with ID etc - so arguing for standing, however 'safe' is arguing with one of the basic principles of crowd control.

the bloke with one lad with a party of 10.........just the one box then?

the here and now bit, the tactics I dont understand??

the singing section for me is a travesty, but the idea its tucked out the way in the gods is equally bizarre - with half the sound bouncing off the roof and never heard - we know, we were there the heart of the Kop was the centre, up behind the goal. dominating the scene - to be there you had to get there early, have two strong legs, be loud and able to take care of yourself - the olduns whose legs had gone went to the stands or drifted to the sides, survival of the fittest - the boys pens was cheap but you took your life in your  hands when you went in there - your first game was a rite of passage if you survived and were brave enough to go back it was gravy from then on - i'm not sure cheap tickets are going to recreate those feelings, the sense of belonging or earning your stripes

it can't and never should be all about money - so we need a better way to get those kids in, a better way to get the game back in the hands of the people who genuinely care about it not those who can afford it - I dont see that as reintroducing standing thats a sticking plaster and an inappropriate one for us

we need to think of ideas around loyalty - maybe kids going to the youth games or reserves get a ticket for every three games they attend

maybe the internet warriors get  a tickets with every 1000 posts and contributions to the community they contribute to -

maybe schools have a section or the unemployed or those who volunteer to steward or clean the drains or whetever get a ticket - not cheap tickets but a ticket - maybe theres a lottery and those who buy tickets can get a game 1 in 100, 1 in a thousand - and the money raised goes to the community - I dont know I'm not bright enough for all that bollocks but - its about community, not money isn't it - its our club

anyhow if you dont get it ,you dont get it

[Peter McGurk]

anyhow if you dont get it ,you dont get it

that would be about right.

[Vulmea]

that would be about right.

ye I'm glad you agree

[Nessy76]

Standing didn't cause Hillsborough. You, me and the guy standing next to me didn't cause Hillsborough. We all know what did. To suggest otherwise only supports those who think they really know what the 'real' cause was.

I'm well aware of that. I clearly wasn't suggesting any such thing and I'm surprised by this response.