Author Topic: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.  (Read 13702 times)

Online Andy82lfc

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #200 on: February 10, 2013, 11:04:08 PM »
What an absolutely moronic statement. Fact.


It doesn't really matter whats in it other than beef, it's the fact that SOMETHING is there other than beef.

If you pay for beef, you expect to get beef.   If you pay for beef/horse mix, then you expect to get beef/horse mix. Simple.

If their controls are that poor that they don't actually know whats in it themselves, or don't know what they're selling, then they're negligent, it's as simple as that.


If you went into a DIY shop and bought a tin of brilliant white paint, got it home, took the lid off and found it was navy blue, would you still put it on the walls or take it back?


If you pay for something and you find out that that something is not what you actually paid for, would you be happy about it?  Hmm.


There again, going by that myopic statement above, you'd probably drink the bloody paint.


Oh, and by the way, I've actually eaten horse (well zebra actually), and would of eaten dog if given the chance, so I'm not squeemish about eating anything. At least I didn't order one thing and get the other.

A thread I started a few years ago.  ;)

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=277509.msg8879109#msg8879109

I'm moronic? Have you not read back your response. You have pretty much encapsulated the whole shock culture I was talking about. It's MEAT, just a slightly different animal!

No offence but your argument is so far off the mark, how about this correct version instead....

If you went to a DIY store and bought a tin of brilliant white paint, took it home, opened the tin to see brilliant white and painted the walls which all looked as you expected, then sat and admired the great looking walls. If then weeks later you heard that this white paint was not actually the brilliant white you thought but was actually a variation of paint made to look white, would you cry bloody murder then demolish, burn and piss on the ashes of the walls that you were so happy with, or would you think whats the fuss all about and not actually give a shit?  :)
 

Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #201 on: February 10, 2013, 11:18:34 PM »
I'm moronic? Have you not read back your response. You have pretty much encapsulated the whole shock culture I was talking about. It's MEAT, just a slightly different animal!

No offence but your argument is so far off the mark, how about this correct version instead....

If you went to a DIY store and bought a tin of brilliant white paint, took it home, opened the tin to see brilliant white and painted the walls which all looked as you expected, then sat and admired the great looking walls. If then weeks later you heard that this white paint was not actually the brilliant white you thought but was actually a variation of paint made to look white, would you cry bloody murder then demolish, burn and piss on the ashes of the walls that you were so happy with, or would you think whats the fuss all about and not actually give a shit?  :)
 

No, that's not the correct version at all. The correct one is you'd be rational and take a moment to wonder what else the seller might have lied to you about it (albeit because they were lied to themselves). If you've been misled on one aspect (the colour) then maybe there's something else problematic. Maybe there are toxic chemicals in there which poison you every time the walls get wet (like the old green wallpapers from 19th Century which contained arsenic). Or maybe the fact that the paint will change colour in a few weeks or some other problem.

The problem that should concern us all is not whether it's a different animal but that if we can't trust the stated ingredients are correct then how can we trust anything they say. The whole system is based on trust and if that's gone you have nothing.

How would you like it if you bought expensive items - a signed LFC shirt, a gold watch, a car - that turned out to be fakes. They all did the job but were not what you paid for, that's the crux of the matter.

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #202 on: February 10, 2013, 11:22:42 PM »
Horses are given medication that is harmful to humans.

Not like the fuck load of anti biotics pumped into cows or the shit they are fed with.
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Online Andy82lfc

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #203 on: February 10, 2013, 11:44:00 PM »
No, that's not the correct version at all. The correct one is you'd be rational and take a moment to wonder what else the seller might have lied to you about it (albeit because they were lied to themselves). If you've been misled on one aspect (the colour) then maybe there's something else problematic. Maybe there are toxic chemicals in there which poison you every time the walls get wet (like the old green wallpapers from 19th Century which contained arsenic). Or maybe the fact that the paint will change colour in a few weeks or some other problem.

The problem that should concern us all is not whether it's a different animal but that if we can't trust the stated ingredients are correct then how can we trust anything they say. The whole system is based on trust and if that's gone you have nothing.

How would you like it if you bought expensive items - a signed LFC shirt, a gold watch, a car - that turned out to be fakes. They all did the job but were not what you paid for, that's the crux of the matter.

No, but again ths is wrong. There are no hidden chemicals or anything that will harm you, it is just a different meat, that is all!! Did anyone anywhere get sick or ill or in fact think they where eating anything but meat? No they didn't. so that is not a correct analogy at all.

I do completely agree with you about the trust issue but again this is very naive to think that all of these companies can be trusted. In every sense they are all out to make a good profit, whatever the measures, you buy these products in good faith but you must understand that you can never fully trust a large corporate enterprise to the full extent we would like to.

If you buy a nice new pair of jeans you would trust that the company bought and made the materials ethically, but this is never the case and in most instances the materials were bought for petty money just merely allowing the producers existance and then put together by 12 year olds in some shit filthy factory.

The issue for me is not that we have been lied to but the fact that it is horse meat therefore the media can have a field day and have everyone and his dog having something to be shocked about for a few weeks and watch the news, buy the papers etc etc. If it was chicken would this be an issue? The answer is no because it would not even make the 5th page.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 11:45:45 PM by Andy82lfc »

Offline Bigly Red Richie

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #204 on: February 10, 2013, 11:44:58 PM »


No offence .....
None taken.
( The moronic statement was a tad of an over reaction on my part)  :wave

Just to go back to your original post.

Shit stirring, shock culture strikes again. How fucking bored must people be now days every other day it's someone else or something else the media is trying to get sacked, banned, jailed.
Don't you think people who've either deliberately missled, in order to profit, or made such monumental fuck-ups as putting a different species than said into food products, should be made accountable for their actions?

If not, at what point do you think they should be punnished?   Maybe when someone becomes ill?  or god forbid dies?

Or do you think they should just get a slap on the back of the legs, and a don't do it again, you naughty boy?

Quote
People need to stop being such hypocrites, if you have a problem then stop eating meat altogether.

If they had been putting in chicken or venison instead this would not even be a story, i'ts only a story and only the fuss about regulations bla bla bla because it's horse meat, fact. I only wish it was something more controversial like labrador.
You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried.

As I said previously. It's not the fact that it's horse, chicken, venison or anything else for that matter.

It's the fact that if you purchase A, you expect to get A, not B.C or D.

If it says beef, you expect beef.

The worrying thing is, if they've not even done such a basic check as actually selling what they say they're selling, I can't see that they've sourced the secondary animals (in this case, horse) from any kind of ethical, or repuatable sources, now have they?
FFS, they didn't even know it was in their own products.

For all we (and they) know, the horses could of come from anywhere, and have any kind of issues or chemical ingredients in them.

At this points, reports suggest that there's no Bute (phenylbutazone) in any of the meat used, but I'd of thought that was sheer luck, and not by design, because the drug is widely used in the horse industry, and they ceratinly havent sourced this horse meat from any repuatable dealers or slaughter houses, have they now.

Who knows what revelations are to come out on the back of this story.


How do you feel about the story (indirectly related) of pies fed to Mulsim prisoners that contained pig DNA?

An animal thats banned under their religion?    You think thats fine also?  I'm sure they don't.

Or how about someone with a nut allergy, buying a product which is reported to have no nut extract in, who then becomes ill or dies?

Is that perfectly acceptable?  Because thats what you're alluding to by stating it doesn't matter.

Of course it bloody matters.


In essence, it's not about product A having something else in it, it's about being told your buying product A, when it clearly has a load of product B, C and D in it, thats potentially harmful, and nobody wants to be accountable for.

Offline Bigly Red Richie

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #205 on: February 10, 2013, 11:56:29 PM »
No, but again ths is wrong. There are no hidden chemicals or anything that will harm you, it is just a different meat, that is all!! Did anyone anywhere get sick or ill or in fact think they where eating anything but meat? No they didn't. so that is not a correct analogy at all.


Well if they didn't even know horse meat was in their products, then they certainly didn't know if those horses where clean living filly's or pumped full of pharmacy gnarly auld nags, did they now.

I'd say thats sheer luck. Not planning.



How would you feel if one of your family ate some unsourced, beef, which came from god knows where, and a few years down the line developed vCJD?

Would that be ok?  I mean, nobody planned it, it just happened.

Or would you want to know how and why it happened?  I know I would, and so would you.


Thats exactly why all of the meat we eat is supposted to be tracked from beginning to end.  So everyone knows where it came from, and that its actually fit for human consumption well before it gets anywhere near your dinner plate.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 12:04:46 AM by Big Red Richie »

Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #206 on: February 10, 2013, 11:58:29 PM »
No, but again ths is wrong. There are no hidden chemicals or anything that will harm you, it is just a different meat, that is all!! Did anyone anywhere get sick or ill or in fact think they where eating anything but meat? No they didn't. so that is not a correct analogy at all.

You're wrong, how do you know there are no hidden chemicals in there? Maybe there are and maybe there aren't but the whole point is that if no one knows where the meat has come from then they don't know what happened to the animals before they were butchered. If it's likely it was East European sourced meat then do you really think the quality control there, or even the standards are remotely the same and it can be trusted to be uncontaminated?

Maybe there are long term health risks to anyone who ate them that won't come out for a while? You can't judge anything on the fact no one is sick yet. Absence of illness does not prove absence of toxins. Only tests over the coming weeks and months will give us true indications of just how big a problem this might be or if we've got off lucky.

I heard or read earlier somewhere that horse meat is more expensive than beef, so if that's true and it's ended up in cheap meat items then it's not going to be high quality horse either. It's going to be extremely cheap stuff indeed, so god knows how poorly the animal was treated whilst it was alive and what was done to it.

Personally I hardly eat any meat at all any more, and find it amusing that different animals can be deemed too cute to eat versus others but that's a misleading argument. This problem is all about misleading people and not whether they ate a cuter animal or not.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 12:00:01 AM by JohnHobbes »

Online Andy82lfc

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #207 on: February 11, 2013, 12:14:43 AM »

How do you feel about the story (indirectly related) of pies fed to Mulsim prisoners that contained pig DNA?

An animal thats banned under their religion?    You think thats fine also?  I'm sure they don't.

Or how about someone with a nut allergy, buying a product which is reported to have no nut extract in, who then becomes ill or dies?

Is that perfectly acceptable?  Because thats what you're alluding to by stating it doesn't matter.

Of course it bloody matters.


In essence, it's not about product A having something else in it, it's about being told your buying product A, when it clearly has a load of product B, C and D in it, thats potentially harmful, and nobody wants to be accountable for.

Again I think that some of this is a bit ott and very speculative. There is no eveidence at all that any chemicals were put into these horses, in fact some of these producing countries have a very good record of producing cattle, including horse meat and the importers have been using them for many many years. Also there are an awful lot of chemicals pumped into our own cattle, along with our very own cases of feeding cows there own shit and the good old bse so we don't exactly have a great track record ourselves anyway do we!  :)

In terms of the other story concerning the pork in Muslim prisoners food I find this to be a completely different issue. This isn't an issue that is about a different meat causing no harm but a very serious error that I think does need looking into for sure. But the fact is that this horse meat issue is (although I see the points some people make about it) so blown out of proportion to me and just pretty much an indication of the sensasionalist society we are becoming.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 12:16:54 AM by Andy82lfc »

Offline MHLC

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #208 on: February 11, 2013, 08:04:00 AM »
In terms of the other story concerning the pork in Muslim prisoners food I find this to be a completely different issue. This isn't an issue that is about a different meat causing no harm but a very serious error that I think does need looking into for sure. But the fact is that this horse meat issue is (although I see the points some people make about it) so blown out of proportion to me and just pretty much an indication of the sensasionalist society we are becoming.



Fucking hell. I've read some absolute bullshit on here over the years and this is right up there with the worst.

Let's get this right here - concern at an international conspiracy to sell meat potentially contaminated with substances known to be harmful to humans is an over reaction and can be ignored, but criminals being served food their religion forbids needs "looking into".

 :duh
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 08:06:00 AM by MHLC »

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #209 on: February 11, 2013, 08:06:23 AM »
Fucking hell. I've read some absolute bullshit on here over the years and this is right up there with the worst.

Let's get this right here - concern at an international conspiracy to sell meat potentially contaminated with substances known to be harmful to humans is an over reaction and can be ignored, but Muslims being served food their religion forbids needs "looking into".

 :duh

And they're prisoners too..........
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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #210 on: February 11, 2013, 08:23:29 AM »
Again I think that some of this is a bit ott and very speculative. There is no eveidence at all that any chemicals were put into these horses, in fact some of these producing countries have a very good record of producing cattle, including horse meat and the importers have been using them for many many years. Also there are an awful lot of chemicals pumped into our own cattle, along with our very own cases of feeding cows there own shit and the good old bse so we don't exactly have a great track record ourselves anyway do we!  :)

In terms of the other story concerning the pork in Muslim prisoners food I find this to be a completely different issue. This isn't an issue that is about a different meat causing no harm but a very serious error that I think does need looking into for sure. But the fact is that this horse meat issue is (although I see the points some people make about it) so blown out of proportion to me and just pretty much an indication of the sensasionalist society we are becoming.



1. there is no evidence = Tests on human healths have not been carried out.  Tests were mainly for contents of the meat.  Just in case it may confuse you: Tests are not done by putting a bit of meat in a test tube and add a solution, test tube goes green/big smoke and answers all the questions.

2. How come pie labelled as "Beef curry pies" has pork in them, different from "beef burgers" that contain horses? 

I think you are missing the whole point
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Online Andy82lfc

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #211 on: February 11, 2013, 09:46:44 AM »
Fucking hell. I've read some absolute bullshit on here over the years and this is right up there with the worst.

Let's get this right here - concern at an international conspiracy to sell meat potentially contaminated with substances known to be harmful to humans is an over reaction and can be ignored, but criminals being served food their religion forbids needs "looking into".

 :duh

Wow, have you heard yourself mate, for goodness sake someone has a different opinion to you and it's the worst bullshit you've heard on here? Get a grip of yourself have you not seen the Steven Gerrard thread lately  ;)

1- beef was sold as horse meat, people ate it and probably have been eating it for many years. All the fannying about saying oh it may have chemicals is just 100% speculation the sort of drivel these shit filled rag red tops spill out every day. It has as much chance being unsafe as the beef we get from the very same factories.

2- yes the pies containing pork is completely different, it is a religious matter that matters a whole lot more to people than simply a different meat and to not understand that is beyond ignorant.

And the comment about oh they are prisoners so basically fuck them, you just can't say that for one we are supposed to be living in a civilised society here and not all prisoners are evil nasty people deserving to get fucked over.

My basic argument, although started very poorly and pretty much a angry rant :D, is just simply yes it is not right, yes they should not be doing it but for fucks sake it is just meat, everything else is just pure speculation which people seem to lap up in their droves. As I keep saying it is a cultural thing if it was chicken we would not be even having this argument would we??
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 12:44:27 PM by Andy82lfc »

Offline Bigly Red Richie

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #212 on: February 11, 2013, 10:10:12 AM »


1- beef was sold as horse meat, people ate it and probably have been eating it for many years. All the fannying about saying oh it may have chemicals is just 100% speculation the sort of drivel these shit filled rag red tops spill out every day. It has as much chance being unsafe as the beef we get from the very same factories.

BSE was in cattle for several years before symptoms started to show up.

When the relevant authorities realised it's significance and danger, hundreds of thousands, ney(no pun intended) millions of cattle world wide had to be culled and their carcases destroyed in order that they didn't enter the food chain.

You alluding to the fact it's all speculation are correct in one way, but any organisation that doesn't even know horse meat is being sold in their products, has less than ZERO chance of knowing what-so-ever, whats in those horses.

If they didn't know horses were there, then at a very basic level, it proves the point that no checks, testing, vetting or control of the animals that were slaughtered and processed into their products was done in the first place.

Whats to say this horse meat isn't a ticking time bomb on the scale, or even a fraction of the scale of BSE?



The authorities don't know, and you and I certainly don't know.

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #213 on: February 11, 2013, 10:38:53 AM »
BSE was in cattle for several years before symptoms started to show up.

When the relevant authorities realised it's significance and danger, hundreds of thousands, ney(no pun intended) millions of cattle world wide had to be culled and their carcases destroyed in order that they didn't enter the food chain.

You alluding to the fact it's all speculation are correct in one way, but any organisation that doesn't even know horse meat is being sold in their products, has less than ZERO chance of knowing what-so-ever, whats in those horses.

If they didn't know horses were there, then at a very basic level, it proves the point that no checks, testing, vetting or control of the animals that were slaughtered and processed into their products was done in the first place.

Whats to say this horse meat isn't a ticking time bomb on the scale, or even a fraction of the scale of BSE?



The authorities don't know, and you and I certainly don't know.

But this is exactly my point mate, we could also speculate that this is the same for the chicken meat we get from Thailand, or sea bass we get farmed from Turkey etc Most companies that source this meat will not carry out the checks they should for obvious reasons. The horse meat was slaughted and processed by the same people, same factories that produced the beef also, so whats to say this is not infected too.

The fact is, like you say, no one knows, so until something is found everything is pure guesswork based on nothing, and until then all that is happened is a different meat has gone into the product. For me it is just yet another example of the media going wild with such a story and if it was not for our non-horse meat eating culture I don't think it would be the case at all.

.....On reflection I should have just put up a funny picture  :D

Offline Bigly Red Richie

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #214 on: February 11, 2013, 10:44:03 AM »
Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree on it mate, but I think the biggest issue of the whole lot is the lack of transparency and trust.

If they've let horse meat into a food process that has no need to have horse meat there, what else have they been lax on, that they're not telling anyone about?

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #215 on: February 11, 2013, 11:25:16 AM »
If you buy beef, you expect to eat beef.

I'd happily eat horse, I'm not really into the whole 'this animal is okay to eat but this one isn't'. If horse tastes good, I'll have a bit of horse. If someone told me the spagbol I'd just eaten and enjoyed, made from Tesco mince, contained elephant meat then I wouldn't puke my guts out and be squeamish and screaming bloody murder. But I'd be a bit miffed that I'd paid for beef and then been given elephant, and I'd probably want to know the reasons why.

Like Richie says, if they don't know what animal is going into their products then how on earth can they be sure that nothing potentially harmful hasn't also gone into their products? If someone got their hand chopped off whilst making mince, and didnt tell anyone and let it enter the food chain, I wouldn't be particularly horrified that I'd possibly mistakenly eaten human flesh but I'd be slightly concerned that they might have had a disease that I could contract.
Or he could read Babu's Twitter threads, which is where I get my opinions from

Offline wacko

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #216 on: February 11, 2013, 11:49:04 AM »
Not like the fuck load of anti biotics pumped into cows or the shit they are fed with.

Which don't cause potentially fatal illnesses in humans. Do you not think that's an important difference?

But this is exactly my point mate, we could also speculate that this is the same for the chicken meat we get from Thailand, or sea bass we get farmed from Turkey etc Most companies that source this meat will not carry out the checks they should for obvious reasons. The horse meat was slaughted and processed by the same people, same factories that produced the beef also, so whats to say this is not infected too.

The fact is, like you say, no one knows, so until something is found everything is pure guesswork based on nothing, and until then all that is happened is a different meat has gone into the product. For me it is just yet another example of the media going wild with such a story and if it was not for our non-horse meat eating culture I don't think it would be the case at all.

.....On reflection I should have just put up a funny picture  :D

That's exactly the point, isn't it?

It's not so much that there's horse in the beef, but that the manufacturers/supermarkets are all like, "we had no idea!"

So what else do they have no idea about? They're obviously not doing any kind of checks, otherwise something as obvious as entirely the wrong kind of meat would have been noticed.

Regarding the non-horse-meat-eating culture: over here in Germany we do eat horsemeat (mmm Sauerbraten), but this whole business is still in the news (even though there's zero indication that any of the products in question reached DE). Not because it's horse, but because it's downright scandalous that these companies have no idea know what they're selling.
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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #217 on: February 11, 2013, 01:40:08 PM »
Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree on it mate, but I think the biggest issue of the whole lot is the lack of transparency and trust.

If they've let horse meat into a food process that has no need to have horse meat there, what else have they been lax on, that they're not telling anyone about?

You're bob on mate.
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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #218 on: February 11, 2013, 01:50:08 PM »
Which don't cause potentially fatal illnesses in humans. Do you not think that's an important difference?

That's exactly the point, isn't it?

It's not so much that there's horse in the beef, but that the manufacturers/supermarkets are all like, "we had no idea!"

So what else do they have no idea about? They're obviously not doing any kind of checks, otherwise something as obvious as entirely the wrong kind of meat would have been noticed.

Regarding the non-horse-meat-eating culture: over here in Germany we do eat horsemeat (mmm Sauerbraten), but this whole business is still in the news (even though there's zero indication that any of the products in question reached DE). Not because it's horse, but because it's downright scandalous that these companies have no idea know what they're selling.

Well this is a bit of a different point and issue of what I was saying at first (which was pretty much a rant at the sensationalist press and speculation it causes) but I had mentioned this earlier and I think it is all about the naivity of us as consumers.

When we buy these products at very cheap prices yes you expect certain quality but most people, especially in terms of food they eat, will have a slab of meat on their plate almost every night without the slightest clue about where it was bred, what conditions, how it was killed etc. But the fact is most people don't care, out of sight out of mind. It's only when something like this happens people start to wonder.

Not wanting to go off on one but this goes for thousands of different items on the high street, clothes, coffee, rice, diamonds, gold. Just look at primark, operating sweatshops for years with kids working in shit awful conditions for next to nothing, and keeping them in there place so westerners can happily go but a pair of jeans for £8. But do most people over here give a shit, no they don't, again out of sight out of mind and the big companies know this and will completely take advantage of anything they can to gain a cheaper product and a higher margin, as in this case buying from dirt cheap producers in eastern europe.

This stuff is bound to happen and putting my annoyance of the press aside and the speculation it causes which I still think is so OTT, maybe at least this can shine a bit of a spotlight on these companies and people will start to care a bit more about how there food is produced, instead of being very naive to think such products can be so cheaply made with no consequences.

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #219 on: February 11, 2013, 02:03:27 PM »
Not wanting to go off on one but this goes for thousands of different items on the high street, clothes, coffee, rice, diamonds, gold. Just look at primark, operating sweatshops for years with kids working in shit awful conditions for next to nothing, and keeping them in there place so westerners can happily go but a pair of jeans for £8. But do most people over here give a shit, no they don't, again out of sight out of mind and the big companies know this and will completely take advantage of anything they can to gain a cheaper product and a higher margin, as in this case buying from dirt cheap producers in eastern europe.

This stuff is bound to happen and putting my annoyance of the press aside and the speculation it causes which I still think is so OTT, maybe at least this can shine a bit of a spotlight on these companies and people will start to care a bit more about how there food is produced, instead of being very naive to think such products can be so cheaply made with no consequences.

What?!

Thats not even remotely relevant. I dont think many people in here are annoyed because supermarkets have looked for a cheaper option. As someone said, if Tesco sold their mince as cow/horse mix minced then no-one could complain. But they didnt. Your examples don't make sense. If you went out and bought a pair of cheap leather shoes from Primark, which did the job intended, and you then found out they weren't leather at all but a much cheaper form of plastic, you'd be annoyed even though they did the job. Because you paid for leather.

If I bought FM 2014 from Tesco and it worked perfectly, but then it was discovered that Tesco had unknowingly got some fake copies from Asia which might contain spyware, viruses and trojan horses then I'd be fucked off even if my copy was genuine.

I dont think Tesco get cheap horse meat because young kids are chopping them up in sweatshops.
Or he could read Babu's Twitter threads, which is where I get my opinions from

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #220 on: February 11, 2013, 02:12:56 PM »
What?!

Thats not even remotely relevant. I dont think many people in here are annoyed because supermarkets have looked for a cheaper option. As someone said, if Tesco sold their mince as cow/horse mix minced then no-one could complain. But they didnt. Your examples don't make sense. If you went out and bought a pair of cheap leather shoes from Primark, which did the job intended, and you then found out they weren't leather at all but a much cheaper form of plastic, you'd be annoyed even though they did the job. Because you paid for leather.

If I bought FM 2014 from Tesco and it worked perfectly, but then it was discovered that Tesco had unknowingly got some fake copies from Asia which might contain spyware, viruses and trojan horses then I'd be fucked off even if my copy was genuine.

I dont think Tesco get cheap horse meat because young kids are chopping them up in sweatshops.

 :butt

Wtf? Have you not read my post properly? I said at the start that it was a different point/issue that most have been talking about. I was talking about how naive we are as customers and how people seem so shocked that this has happened, then about how this happens in the first place i.e companies trying to make large profits by sourcing there produce or clothes in the cheapest way possible and how we turn a blind eye. I also said I was going off on one!  :wave

 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 02:21:30 PM by Andy82lfc »

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #221 on: February 11, 2013, 02:33:04 PM »
This fiasco just epitomises the processed garbage people are being fed these days. I bet we're only just scratching the surface with regards to what's really being put into the food we're offered in supermarkets. Anything to drive down the costs and increase the profits, sod improving the quality of public health and all that nonsense!

What's even worse is that more and more people are having to buy this shite because the cost of food keeps rising whilst wages and living standards are being frozen.
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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #222 on: February 11, 2013, 04:02:43 PM »
It all comes down to the fact that most of us have a deeply unhealthy relationship with and dependence upon cheap food. And food is ludicrously cheap.

For all these people saying 'when you buy beef you expect to get beef', what should you expect from your value burgers which only have to have a minimum of 47% beef (and associated fat/tissue) to be classed as beef burgers in the first place? What precisely can you 'expect' that other 53% to be? If you're buying anything processed/pre-prepared and not looking at the label to see what makes up your food, then you're contributing to the situation in your own small way.

Yes, we've not all got the time, and those of us who do almost certainly don't have the money, to make our meals from scratch and so know what goes into them every day of the week. We can't all go out and get organic veg and free-range meat from Waitrose, but when it costs around a quid for the cheapest 'value' chicken breast compared to anything up to 2 quid for an organic one, and you can get more than twice as much 'meat' in your burgers for the same price, shouldn't it make you stop and think?

Most people didn't/don't care what goes into their food anyway, and after this fuss has blown over they'll go back to not looking/caring what goes on their plate most nights, so long as they're able to get some cheap meals done. Economy trumps all in this case.

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #223 on: February 11, 2013, 04:40:31 PM »
:butt

Wtf? Have you not read my post properly?
 

I wouldn't bet on it. He's too busy getting his post count up to read stuff.
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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #224 on: February 11, 2013, 07:10:40 PM »
I'm actually allergic to horses. Can i sue?

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #225 on: February 12, 2013, 12:03:40 AM »
I'm actually allergic to horses. Can i sue?
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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #226 on: February 12, 2013, 02:44:05 PM »
Well this is a bit of a different point and issue of what I was saying at first (which was pretty much a rant at the sensationalist press and speculation it causes) but I had mentioned this earlier and I think it is all about the naivity of us as consumers.

When we buy these products at very cheap prices yes you expect certain quality but most people, especially in terms of food they eat, will have a slab of meat on their plate almost every night without the slightest clue about where it was bred, what conditions, how it was killed etc. But the fact is most people don't care, out of sight out of mind. It's only when something like this happens people start to wonder.

Not wanting to go off on one but this goes for thousands of different items on the high street, clothes, coffee, rice, diamonds, gold. Just look at primark, operating sweatshops for years with kids working in shit awful conditions for next to nothing, and keeping them in there place so westerners can happily go but a pair of jeans for £8. But do most people over here give a shit, no they don't, again out of sight out of mind and the big companies know this and will completely take advantage of anything they can to gain a cheaper product and a higher margin, as in this case buying from dirt cheap producers in eastern europe.

This stuff is bound to happen and putting my annoyance of the press aside and the speculation it causes which I still think is so OTT, maybe at least this can shine a bit of a spotlight on these companies and people will start to care a bit more about how there food is produced, instead of being very naive to think such products can be so cheaply made with no consequences.

I wish that were true. People will always go for more cheap shit than less expensive, quality stuff. Some of them actually talk the talk, but very few walk the walk.

Perhaps there's hope for food, but not for clothing, electronics etc.
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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #227 on: February 13, 2013, 09:12:33 AM »
It looks like the neat little international criminal conspiracy theory propagated by the Tory minister is beginning to unravel. It's looking increasingly like endemic fraud within the food processing industry and a complete failure of governance by the agencies charged with our protection.

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #228 on: February 13, 2013, 09:41:53 AM »
It looks like the neat little international criminal conspiracy theory propagated by the Tory minister is beginning to unravel. It's looking increasingly like endemic fraud within the food processing industry and a complete failure of governance by the agencies charged with our protection.

So who are the mane men behind it all Michael?

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #229 on: February 13, 2013, 11:47:00 AM »
So who are the mane men behind it all Michael?

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Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #230 on: February 13, 2013, 12:07:20 PM »
It's looking increasingly like endemic fraud within the food processing industry and a complete failure of governance by the agencies charged with our protection.

It wouldn't be surprising.

My GF works in the food industry and says that the way supermarkets like Tesco rule the roost, conducting themselves in a merciless manner with regards to price and supply means for the major chains, quality (and therefore authenticity of meat!) is the last thing on their mind.

I know for a fact that her company pay bungs to EDIT: A MAJOR SUPERMARKET CHAIN of over a million pounds a year just to get their products a decent spot on the shelves -  it's marked down as 'expenses' or whatever, but it's basically a bribe. It's obviously not just her company who do it either. they wine and dine the stockists, for example her Liverpool based company has a box at sodding Old Trafford which I always thought was out of order!

She says they don't give a rat's arse about quality of the product, they care about volume and whether it gets delivered on time, so that they can maintain their full shelves, and the illusion that everything is OK.

They are experts in the art of 'value engineering', whereby every can of food or ready meal is engineered to cost as little as possible. They will often introduce a product at a loss, with good quality ingredients, then once sales are steady and people have it as a regular item in their shopping, they either increase the price, or more commonly, employ some value engineering, cut the quality of the product and hope people don't notice.

According to her, the only major 'supermarket' she deals with that care about delivering quality product are Marks and Spencers, who have stringent quality checks on their own label gear. Perhaps you could say 'as they should, for their prices'. She doesn't deal with Waitrose though so not sure about them, I imagine they should be the same as M&S in principle.

The illusion that everyone is too busy to make fresh food, and that it's more expensive is in my opinion at least partly a myth, propagated by supermarkets and food companies alike. It's cheaper for me to pick up fruit and veg from independent stalls on my way home, it's cheaper to pick and slice my own onions than buy a three-pack from the supermarket or a bag of ready-sliced shite.

People have been told they don't have time for shopping properly, and it has come true, it's a self fulfilling prophecy - they TELL you you don't have time, so you pick the ready meal, the easy option, the takeaway. If you never heard the 'don't have time' myth, if generations passed down cooking from scratch, not tray-based sludge, then this thirst for ever greater profit margins could perhaps be quenched, at least a little.

I'm not saying it's consumers faults, but basically IMO retailers have given people the option to be lazy, and turn a blind eye, and people being people, have taken it. It's like wasting time at work, if you get the chance, a lot of people will do it. Like me posting this for example.I don't need a break to rant on RAWK, but the opportunity is there so I am. Same with the rise of ready meals.

sorry that was a complete ramble. But there you go.  ;D
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 04:05:57 PM by SamAteTheRedAcid »
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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #231 on: February 13, 2013, 12:15:04 PM »
I think this would be a good time to ask people to please swerve the supermarkets and support your local butchers and farmers :)

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #232 on: February 13, 2013, 12:26:20 PM »
I think this would be a good time to ask people to please swerve the supermarkets and support your local butchers and farmers :)

I agree. And extend that to supporting the local independent shops on your high street - if there's any left. Time to give the supermarkets a bloody nose, so to speak.

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #233 on: February 13, 2013, 12:31:47 PM »
I think this would be a good time to ask people to please swerve the supermarkets and support your local butchers and farmers :)

It is. We should be shunning supermarkets for their nefarious practices. they are actually psychotic in their pursuit of profit margins.

they will ride roughshod over everyone, neighbouring businesses, councils, suppliers (including the UK farming industry), customers in their pursuit of financial return.

I understand they are convenient, and of course I get sucked into them every week, but I try to abstain whenever possible.


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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #234 on: February 13, 2013, 01:24:06 PM »
I think this would be a good time to ask people to please swerve the supermarkets and support your local butchers and farmers :)

It's a great idea and one that I try to do as much as possible, but the fact is that many people can not afford to do this and the reason in the first place they buy the cheapest products out there, which seem to be the ones all in question.

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #235 on: February 13, 2013, 02:35:26 PM »
It's a great idea and one that I try to do as much as possible, but the fact is that many people can not afford to do this and the reason in the first place they buy the cheapest products out there, which seem to be the ones all in question.

I know that the cheapo Findus/Birdseye/own brand frozen stuff is very budget-friendly, but I think it's worth educating people that economising with the very stuff that we fuel our bodies with is the last place that they should start scrimping.

It makes me laugh that nearly everyone I see smoking  smokes proper cigarettes, which are about 5 times more expensive (and full of chemicals) than roll-ups, and then economise on food to afford their ciggy habit.

People take the car or bus rather than walk - saving one busfare a day in Liverpool (£2 flat rate) would pay for the increase to your food bill buying from a butcher rather than from a dodgily sourced frozen foods manufacturer.

People have to have branded shoes and jackets, but will chew on any old shite food full of chemicals and little nutrition.

People won't buy cheap coke as they can 'taste the difference' but they'll get frozen mince in a value bag that looks like sheep's brains.

There's also the fact that eating shite makes you feel like shite, my mate who lived on Sayers pasties and crap pizza takeaways was always complaining about feeling ill, one day he ate nothing but a massive bag of value peanuts for God's sake, I said to him, why do you think you feel ill? If you put the wrong petrol in your car, it doesn't work. Human body is the same.

I've digressed from horse meat debate, but still. Gets on my wick. How did it end up like this?

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #236 on: February 13, 2013, 05:47:41 PM »
It's a great idea and one that I try to do as much as possible, but the fact is that many people can not afford to do this and the reason in the first place they buy the cheapest products out there, which seem to be the ones all in question.

Sam already made some good points on this but I just wanted to add one other thing. It really is possible to get good value meals from local independent shops. The reason that people don't do it is that these meals come in the form of raw ingredients, and need cooking. I can get cheaper cuts of good quality local meat from my butcher for very reasonable prices, comparable to the supermarkets. I just need to know how to prepare it. I accept that a lot of people don't have the knowledge to do that. This to me is more of a problem than the price issue. Trying to educate people to cook and eat well without being patronising is a tricky balancing act.

EDIT: The proportion of family incomes spent on food has been steadily coming down over the last few decades. At the moment it's about 10-15% (some estimates are even lower). Is this a sign of progress, or unrealistically low? Is this current scandal a symptom of a 'race to the bottom' in our food industry?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 06:03:04 PM by Devon Red »

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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #237 on: February 13, 2013, 05:57:07 PM »
Sam already made some good points on this but I just wanted to add one other thing. It really is possible to get good value meals from local independent shops. The reason that people don't do it is that these meals come in the form of raw ingredients, and need cooking. I can get cheaper cuts of good quality local meat from my butcher for very reasonable prices, comparable to the supermarkets. I just need to know how to prepare it. I accept that a lot of people don't have the knowledge to do that. This to me is more of a problem than the price issue. Trying to educate people to cook and eat well without being patronising is a tricky balancing act.

That's part of a wider cultural issue unfortunately.  People are being ground up in their day to day lives and no longer feel they have the time or the energy to cook properly for themselves.  Also, we live in an instant gratification society - nobody wants to hang around waiting for their food to cook. 

Fast food, instant meals, it's all the same really.  However I may try to start going to Butchers and other shops over Lent, try to make an effort to learn some proper cooking.
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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #238 on: February 13, 2013, 06:58:35 PM »
It's gonna be a nice few months for local butchers :)
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Re: Horse meat found in beef burgers on sale in UK and Ireland.
« Reply #239 on: February 13, 2013, 07:08:54 PM »
So fucking bored of this story. I don't know what they hope to achieve by drip feeding us a daily dose of information about another product being withdrawn or another abattoir being investigated. The FSA just basically needs to say "Listen, you pricks, we know what you've been doing. Don't do it again or we'll cut your fucking balls off".
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