Author Topic: Liverpool's Midfield  (Read 1150960 times)

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16720 on: January 21, 2020, 11:33:36 PM »
Perhaps I don’t write clearly enough, but it feels like you argue against some things I haven’t even said to begin with, so not sure what I’m supposed to reply here. Maybe we can just agree that our team, including the midfield, is absolutely fantastic, and leave it there.

I was also replying with the original post in mind, which you also cited. Anyway, the point you want to agree with is great and I'm with you there.

Offline Peabee

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16721 on: January 21, 2020, 11:41:40 PM »
The fact Klopp didn’t trust a forward to play as an 8 in his system is proof he doesn’t want progressive 8s in the team? Not sure about this logic.

The midfield is rotated because of all the running they do and depending on the opposition we’re facing or the result we need.

I also think what some are confusing with Henderson making a big improvement is in fact a result of Hendo finally getting over the PF injury. He’s now able to run like Kipchoge again.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16722 on: January 22, 2020, 01:36:16 AM »
I think Klopp’s succession planning to replace the Gini Henderson Milner/Lallana axis were Keita Ox and Fabinho. Those latter 3 are about the same age too and a combination of experience and robustness.

Fab and Ox looks to be coming along nicely. Keita needs some horse placenta to get a run in the team. It always feels like one step forward but 2 steps back.

Offline Knight

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16723 on: January 22, 2020, 07:06:56 AM »
None of that answers the question about which great teams in football didn't have any 'problems' though.

Not to mention, how many potential 'problems' the conservative LFC midfields of the past two years have eliminated before they even became visible, as well as how many counter-attacks they have initiated by doing so.

This IMO is the big thing that's really missing from your side of the conversation, it's all well and good to point out that the midfield isn't creative enough but the tons of work going into finally making us stable defensively is just being glossed over as if that isn't a part of  a"balanced midfield" as well, as if surely someone more creative could just do that as well as the other stuff, can't be that hard after all even if no other team manages to do it as well.

Point taken. Although To be fair I did write this on the previous page

Quote
Perhaps this just comes down to a different reading of the word balance. I mean it in terms of the breadth of skillset across the midfield 3. The midfield needs certain elements for balance, and when certain elements are missing, it becomes a little uneven. That doesn't really matter most of the time, because they still offer so much, and it's compensated for elsewhere. But it is not disrespectful to Henderson to say that he is less press resistant than Fabinho or that Gini is less progressive with his passing than Keita or that Milner is worse at receiving the ball in the half space than Ox. Just like it wouldn't be disrespectful to say that a midfield of Lallana, Keita, Ox would lack balance in terms of tactical awareness compared to Gini; aggression, ability to cover ground, keep play moving, break up play compared to Henderson and defensive mopping up & aerial presence compared to Fabinho (and you could include a whole load of other things that we'd lose with a midfield 3 of Ox, Lallana and Keita too which would result in an unbalanced midfield 3).

Offline Knight

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16724 on: January 22, 2020, 08:29:18 AM »
This is probably a case where the majority of protagonists in this conversation agree much more than can come across in a forum debate. I'm guessing there are some who think we'd be much better off with Chelsea's midfield or City's midfield, but that's a minority, and frankly stupid, opinion. City's midfield wouldn't have everything that Klopp wants from his midfield, including physicality, tactical awareness in terms of space and ability to run, and run and run. Chelsea's midfield is the midfield of a team who couldn't beat an arsenal team who played most of the game with 10 men.

However, to my knowledge that isn't what AL (as far as I know) and I have been saying over the past page. I think in a Liverpool midfield we need what Fabinho/Henderson offer in the 6 position. Protect the space in front of the CBs, keep the ball moving and recycle possession, mop up, press intelligently without leaving holes, progress the ball up the pitch to a certain extent. Before Fabinho's injury I'd have said Fabinho is the better 6 but Henderson is the incumbent of that role currently on merit and keeps that spot imo. You don't even need to dip into the intangibles in terms of leadership that Henderson offers to argue that he keeps the 6 spot but those things are an additional bonus. I think we need an 8 like Gini, who is tactically astute and able to cover gaps and fill holes, as well as being press resistant, physically top notch and very good at keeping hold of the ball. I don't think Guardiola would want Gini as an 8 (or at least not as an 8 in the way he plays the role for Klopp, he's so flexible he could probably go and be a Guardiola 8 without too much trouble) but Klopp does and that's great. I suspect Keita could probably play this role and as long as the injuries clear up will probably be the replacement for Gini, although the lack of physicality compared to Gini is a  a concern. And then Klopp often wants to play another 8 who is slightly more progressive - Milner, Keita, Ox, Lallana, Henderson have all fulfilled this role for Klopp and each of them have different strengths and weaknesses. I would say, and so would others, that the midfield balance is as it's strongest when the final 8 is a player comfortable receiving the ball in the half space, is comfortable in tight spaces and is able to either dribble or pass progressively (or both preferably). However, when we play a midfield of Fab, Gini, Henderson we compensate in other ways, as seen in the period where they started more often than not at the start of this season. And that midfield offers more of other things which is really great. But has the midfield, and thus the team, looked slightly better with a midfield of Hendo, Gini + Lallana/Ox/Keita? I think so. Now others will want to major on the physicality, aggressiveness, tactical discipline and astuteness, ball recovery ability, possessions recycling e.t.c. e.t.c e.t.c. that Fab, Gini and Henderson offer and focus on the positives which is great. They're rightly recognising the huge importance of that to a Klopp midfield and we need that to happen because some might be tempted to accuse the Liverpool midfield of being very average and just workmanlike whilst not understanding what's happening. And folk might be tempted to look at Guardiola's midfield and think the grass is greener, which just isn't true. I just don't think that those who talk up the value of the 'progressive' element as one thing to prize in a Klopp midfield should be accused of disrespecting the team. 

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16725 on: January 22, 2020, 08:51:06 AM »
That is a bit more clear, and I do agree with certain points but there is a reason Klopp wants all-rounders in midfield than specialists. That's why it's plain wrong to say he wants a rigid No. 6, No. 8 and a No. 10 in midfield (forget positions, I'm talking roles here). For Klopp, balance means that his midfield is able to shuffle and perform one another's roles to a good level. When Hendo's not dropping deep, Wijnaldum or Keita have dropped deep to receive the ball from CBs. Against Man United, Wijnaldum took part in all sorts of attacking situations and even scored a goal from offside position. When Keita is caught high, Henderson covers his side and so on. They cover for one another in defense, plugging gaps, circulating the ball or attacking and all of them shuffle between roles when required depending on match situation. When Henderson played further forward, he was shooting a fair bit from in and around the box. Fabinho could play penetrating passes even from a deeper position (see his assist against Man United last season or his assist against Wolves last season).

We have all rounders in midfield who execute the instructions from midfield to a T. All of Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Keita, Lallana or Milner can do multiple things to a high level (even if none can do most of them to an elite level with exception of a few strengths for each). Ox is the least all-round player in our midfield and requires others to plug gaps a bit more. Last season, Klopp tried to play Shaqiri in midfield and it became a Coutinho like situation wherein he was disappointed with the tactical execution defensively and stopped the experiment sooner than later.

In short, I think you're fixated in rigid terms with regards to positions. Klopp is not one-dimensional and he is flexible. He picks the best side to win a game on a given day based on their availability first and then he has his trusted set of players, and then depending upon fatigue/rotation and then finally depending on opposition. He goes to some trusted players more than others in big games - the ones who he hasn't trusted like Benteke, Sakho, Ibe, Moreno, Mignolet, Can etc. have all been shown the door and there are others who aren't as regularly picked as some. The point is Keita has quite a bit to prove in terms of availability and consistency to belong in his most trusted set of midfield players even though his talent has never been in doubt. The midfield that Klopp has so often gone for in big games is the one he trusts the most and for an year at least, it has been Fabinho, Henderson and Wijnaldum and there is no evidence for anything contrary to that. I'll be happy for Keita and Ox to prove themselves consistently at that level and if they do, I think they are great options to have as well and if they do so, Klopp will no longer have 3/4 regular midfield players and then some more options, but would rather have a set of 5-6 very good midfielders from whom he would like to pick and choose depending upon the game-plan/situation/opposition etc. 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 09:06:18 AM by PoetryInMotion »

Offline Knight

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16726 on: January 22, 2020, 09:02:19 AM »
Great post and a helpful clarification to my post. Just in terms of your final line, I'm not really talking about positions, I'm talking skillsets more. There is a difference in position between the 6 and the 2 8s to some extent but I completely agree Klopp wants all rounders. So the 'progressive' 8 (and 'progressive' here refers to skill set and role on a pitch, not position so much), needs to be able to do lots of what Henderson and Gini offer. But I want to say it the other way round too. Henderson/Milner when they plays as 8 need to be able to do lots of what Ox or Keita offers. Again we come back to Keita, because he offers elite level 'defensive' actions and elite level 'offensive' actions. With a firing Keita on the pitch you've got someone who's pressing and ball recovery and tackles is better than everyone else in the midfield and who's ball progression is better than everyone else in midfield. He just can't get going.

BTW I'm certainly not talking about one of the 3 midfielders being a 10. Firmino is probably our 10. So for example, even if he were good enough for us (which he probably isn't) Maddison doesn't fit in a Klopp team for this reason. He's not a wid/ inverted forward and he's not an 8 (in terms of the role that he can fill).

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16727 on: January 22, 2020, 09:14:30 AM »
Great post and a helpful clarification to my post. Just in terms of your final line, I'm not really talking about positions, I'm talking skillsets more. There is a difference in position between the 6 and the 2 8s to some extent but I completely agree Klopp wants all rounders. So the 'progressive' 8 (and 'progressive' here refers to skill set and role on a pitch, not position so much), needs to be able to do lots of what Henderson and Gini offer. But I want to say it the other way round too. Henderson/Milner when they plays as 8 need to be able to do lots of what Ox or Keita offers. Again we come back to Keita, because he offers elite level 'defensive' actions and elite level 'offensive' actions. With a firing Keita on the pitch you've got someone who's pressing and ball recovery and tackles is better than everyone else in the midfield and who's ball progression is better than everyone else in midfield. He just can't get going.

BTW I'm certainly not talking about one of the 3 midfielders being a 10. Firmino is probably our 10. So for example, even if he were good enough for us (which he probably isn't) Maddison doesn't fit in a Klopp team for this reason. He's not a wid/ inverted forward and he's not an 8 (in terms of the role that he can fill).

I don't disagree with this at all. He is probably the most talented No. 8 in the world now and he's a great all-round midfielder. But talent alone is not enough, he's yet to cement his place in the side. He has a good chance to do so in the future (at least in the remainder of this season/next season) as Milner is already 30+ and Hendo and Wijnaldum are approaching 30 and need their minutes managed. Hopefully, his fitness improves and he shows us consistently what he can do.

However, I disagree that Wijnaldum/Henderson cannot play a more attacking role. Hendo can play it to a decent level, while Wijnaldum can play it to a great level as seen for the Netherlands quite often. Of course, Fabinho is the most defensive minded of all our midfielders, and even he too has a good progressive pass in him.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16728 on: January 22, 2020, 09:50:38 AM »
I don't disagree with this at all. He is probably the most talented No. 8 in the world now and he's a great all-round midfielder. But talent alone is not enough, he's yet to cement his place in the side. He has a good chance to do so in the future (at least in the remainder of this season/next season) as Milner is already 30+ and Hendo and Wijnaldum are approaching 30 and need their minutes managed. Hopefully, his fitness improves and he shows us consistently what he can do.

However, I disagree that Wijnaldum/Henderson cannot play a more attacking role. Hendo can play it to a decent level, while Wijnaldum can play it to a great level as seen for the Netherlands quite often. Of course, Fabinho is the most defensive minded of all our midfielders, and even he too has a good progressive pass in him.

I think Keita raises an interesting issue here. As you say, he just can't get going. I believe Naby was the upgrade many people wanted, he's great with the ball at his feet, he drives forward, he can dribble and he "breaks lines" as they say.

But his fitness issues are pretty serious. You would have to say Klopp will have to think about this if he cannot show sustained fitness between now and the end of the season. A fit Naby could be the driving force in another Champions League run but Klopp needs his midfielders in good shape or they are not of use to him, especially the way we play.
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Offline DanA

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16729 on: January 22, 2020, 11:31:24 AM »
I think what is most important for this team is not what our midfield is doing on the ball but what is happening off it. In that respect, all of our midfielders are very experienced in this system, and all of them are capable of performing their role to a high level. But I do think those that are most positionally aware (Fabinho, Wijnaldum, and Henderson) tend to play the most consistent and are favoured by Klopp. Positionally, I think Keita has the most to improve, and despite being IMO the most talented of the group, he's on the fringe.  Keita might get there, but I'd take Hendo, Gini and Fabinho well before the others at the moment.
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Offline Magix

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16730 on: January 22, 2020, 12:56:07 PM »
People are too hung up on who's starting; our midfield on the whole is quite progressive nowadays. Doesn't matter if Keita starts or not because he can impact the game either way, because we've the option of calling on him.

Offline MaradonaPisstest

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16731 on: January 22, 2020, 01:54:12 PM »
What's everyone's feeling on Oxlade-Chamberlain at the moment?

I know he's not yet back at those standards before his injury but we seem to be finding it easier to play through the centre recently with him starting.

Offline lfc_bhoy

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16732 on: January 22, 2020, 02:34:20 PM »
I think Keita raises an interesting issue here. As you say, he just can't get going. I believe Naby was the upgrade many people wanted, he's great with the ball at his feet, he drives forward, he can dribble and he "breaks lines" as they say.

But his fitness issues are pretty serious. You would have to say Klopp will have to think about this if he cannot show sustained fitness between now and the end of the season. A fit Naby could be the driving force in another Champions League run but Klopp needs his midfielders in good shape or they are not of use to him, especially the way we play.

It's easy to forget he's only 24 as well. Jordan had a whole spate of injuries throughout his career but has turned it around recently. Naby could well just have the large amount of games he's played early in his career taking a minor toll. I trust our staff to sort out whatever it is and have him more available going forward. Because I agree, he's easily our most technically gifted and all-around most talented midfielder. For better or worse too I think we have the depth to allow him to get healthy, he'll be absolutely worth waiting for.
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Offline christofu

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16733 on: January 22, 2020, 05:17:38 PM »
In short, I think you're fixated in rigid terms with regards to positions. Klopp is not one-dimensional and he is flexible. He picks the best side to win a game on a given day based on their availability first and then he has his trusted set of players, and then depending upon fatigue/rotation and then finally depending on opposition. He goes to some trusted players more than others in big games - the ones who he hasn't trusted like Benteke, Sakho, Ibe, Moreno, Mignolet, Can etc. have all been shown the door and there are others who aren't as regularly picked as some. The point is Keita has quite a bit to prove in terms of availability and consistency to belong in his most trusted set of midfield players even though his talent has never been in doubt. The midfield that Klopp has so often gone for in big games is the one he trusts the most and for an year at least, it has been Fabinho, Henderson and Wijnaldum and there is no evidence for anything contrary to that. I'll be happy for Keita and Ox to prove themselves consistently at that level and if they do, I think they are great options to have as well and if they do so, Klopp will no longer have 3/4 regular midfield players and then some more options, but would rather have a set of 5-6 very good midfielders from whom he would like to pick and choose depending upon the game-plan/situation/opposition etc.

Good discussion and lots of great points on what Hendo & Gini bring to the midfield. I know 'trusted' has been mentioned a few times and what has continued to impress me over the last 12-18 months is our ability to control games and manage within games. We seem to be able to 'feel' our way through games, not over-commit ourselves in the wrong areas until we have established where they can hurt us, and also be able to deal with any of their adjustments as they throw them at us. At the same time our decision making to use the right attacking weapons at the right time of those now available to us has been 1st class. I see Hendo & Gini being crucial to this and probably Milner next (used exceptionally well off the bench in recent times) in terms of trust. I do think its just a matter of playing time for Fab/Ox/Keita to attain this so looking forward to the next 12-18 months!

Offline Al 666

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16734 on: January 22, 2020, 05:38:46 PM »
This is probably a case where the majority of protagonists in this conversation agree much more than can come across in a forum debate. I'm guessing there are some who think we'd be much better off with Chelsea's midfield or City's midfield, but that's a minority, and frankly stupid, opinion. City's midfield wouldn't have everything that Klopp wants from his midfield, including physicality, tactical awareness in terms of space and ability to run, and run and run. Chelsea's midfield is the midfield of a team who couldn't beat an arsenal team who played most of the game with 10 men.

However, to my knowledge that isn't what AL (as far as I know) and I have been saying over the past page. I think in a Liverpool midfield we need what Fabinho/Henderson offer in the 6 position. Protect the space in front of the CBs, keep the ball moving and recycle possession, mop up, press intelligently without leaving holes, progress the ball up the pitch to a certain extent. Before Fabinho's injury I'd have said Fabinho is the better 6 but Henderson is the incumbent of that role currently on merit and keeps that spot imo. You don't even need to dip into the intangibles in terms of leadership that Henderson offers to argue that he keeps the 6 spot but those things are an additional bonus. I think we need an 8 like Gini, who is tactically astute and able to cover gaps and fill holes, as well as being press resistant, physically top notch and very good at keeping hold of the ball. I don't think Guardiola would want Gini as an 8 (or at least not as an 8 in the way he plays the role for Klopp, he's so flexible he could probably go and be a Guardiola 8 without too much trouble) but Klopp does and that's great. I suspect Keita could probably play this role and as long as the injuries clear up will probably be the replacement for Gini, although the lack of physicality compared to Gini is a  a concern. And then Klopp often wants to play another 8 who is slightly more progressive - Milner, Keita, Ox, Lallana, Henderson have all fulfilled this role for Klopp and each of them have different strengths and weaknesses. I would say, and so would others, that the midfield balance is as it's strongest when the final 8 is a player comfortable receiving the ball in the half space, is comfortable in tight spaces and is able to either dribble or pass progressively (or both preferably). However, when we play a midfield of Fab, Gini, Henderson we compensate in other ways, as seen in the period where they started more often than not at the start of this season. And that midfield offers more of other things which is really great. But has the midfield, and thus the team, looked slightly better with a midfield of Hendo, Gini + Lallana/Ox/Keita? I think so. Now others will want to major on the physicality, aggressiveness, tactical discipline and astuteness, ball recovery ability, possessions recycling e.t.c. e.t.c e.t.c. that Fab, Gini and Henderson offer and focus on the positives which is great. They're rightly recognising the huge importance of that to a Klopp midfield and we need that to happen because some might be tempted to accuse the Liverpool midfield of being very average and just workmanlike whilst not understanding what's happening. And folk might be tempted to look at Guardiola's midfield and think the grass is greener, which just isn't true. I just don't think that those who talk up the value of the 'progressive' element as one thing to prize in a Klopp midfield should be accused of disrespecting the team. 

Really good post mate.
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Offline Al 666

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16735 on: January 22, 2020, 06:15:25 PM »
That is a bit more clear, and I do agree with certain points but there is a reason Klopp wants all-rounders in midfield than specialists. That's why it's plain wrong to say he wants a rigid No. 6, No. 8 and a No. 10 in midfield (forget positions, I'm talking roles here). For Klopp, balance means that his midfield is able to shuffle and perform one another's roles to a good level. When Hendo's not dropping deep, Wijnaldum or Keita have dropped deep to receive the ball from CBs. Against Man United, Wijnaldum took part in all sorts of attacking situations and even scored a goal from offside position. When Keita is caught high, Henderson covers his side and so on. They cover for one another in defense, plugging gaps, circulating the ball or attacking and all of them shuffle between roles when required depending on match situation. When Henderson played further forward, he was shooting a fair bit from in and around the box. Fabinho could play penetrating passes even from a deeper position (see his assist against Man United last season or his assist against Wolves last season).

Has anyone said a rigid 6, 8 and 10 though. Let's face it to be at a Club like Liverpool you are going to have to a good all around midfield player.
When talking about a six, a link and a more attacking role I was talking about the key requirements those roles require. For us to have real balance and to be the best midfield we can be I think having a player with elite levels in those three areas.

We have all rounders in midfield who execute the instructions from midfield to a T. All of Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Keita, Lallana or Milner can do multiple things to a high level (even if none can do most of them to an elite level with exception of a few strengths for each). Ox is the least all-round player in our midfield and requires others to plug gaps a bit more. Last season, Klopp tried to play Shaqiri in midfield and it became a Coutinho like situation wherein he was disappointed with the tactical execution defensively and stopped the experiment sooner than later.

Some good points there. However I think we have look at why we need so many gaps plugging. Klopp previously liked to have one conservative full back and one aggressive full back. However with Coutinho sold, Lallana, Ox and Keita injured Klopp found a solution. That involved effectively going to a back two, pushing the full backs ridiculously high and using Trent as our playmaker.

Those changes have been great but mean we are more vulnerable on the counter which necessitates the need for a midfield adept at plugging gaps.

In short, I think you're fixated in rigid terms with regards to positions. Klopp is not one-dimensional and he is flexible. He picks the best side to win a game on a given day based on their availability first and then he has his trusted set of players, and then depending upon fatigue/rotation and then finally depending on opposition. He goes to some trusted players more than others in big games - the ones who he hasn't trusted like Benteke, Sakho, Ibe, Moreno, Mignolet, Can etc. have all been shown the door and there are others who aren't as regularly picked as some. The point is Keita has quite a bit to prove in terms of availability and consistency to belong in his most trusted set of midfield players even though his talent has never been in doubt. The midfield that Klopp has so often gone for in big games is the one he trusts the most and for an year at least, it has been Fabinho, Henderson and Wijnaldum and there is no evidence for anything contrary to that. I'll be happy for Keita and Ox to prove themselves consistently at that level and if they do, I think they are great options to have as well and if they do so, Klopp will no longer have 3/4 regular midfield players and then some more options, but would rather have a set of 5-6 very good midfielders from whom he would like to pick and choose depending upon the game-plan/situation/opposition etc. 

For me it is about tactical flexibility. Personally I think Fab, Hendo, Gini is overly reliant on Trent. Put Gomez or Williams in there at right back or if the opposition push Trent back we lose a lot of creativity.

We are a machine at the moment and are far too good for most teams. Even with Fabinho and latterly Milner we have won 12 on the spin. I think the Champions League could be a different matter though. Napoli have posed us problems over the last two years by being extremely disciplined and I think Atletico are capable of causing us similar problems. I think it is in those games in which we need a bit more dynamism and thrust from midfield with a player like Ox or Keita who is capable of breaking the lines and disrupting the oppositions game plan.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Sangria

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16736 on: January 22, 2020, 07:54:40 PM »
For me it is about tactical flexibility. Personally I think Fab, Hendo, Gini is overly reliant on Trent. Put Gomez or Williams in there at right back or if the opposition push Trent back we lose a lot of creativity.

We are a machine at the moment and are far too good for most teams. Even with Fabinho and latterly Milner we have won 12 on the spin. I think the Champions League could be a different matter though. Napoli have posed us problems over the last two years by being extremely disciplined and I think Atletico are capable of causing us similar problems. I think it is in those games in which we need a bit more dynamism and thrust from midfield with a player like Ox or Keita who is capable of breaking the lines and disrupting the oppositions game plan.

I think our plan B is the dual attacking FBs, which we've relied on because our plan A, which I think is the line-breaking CM, have been injured so much. It's why we have 2 line-breaking CMs, but only the first choice attacking FBs.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Al 666

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16737 on: January 22, 2020, 08:32:15 PM »
I think our plan B is the dual attacking FBs, which we've relied on because our plan A, which I think is the line-breaking CM, have been injured so much. It's why we have 2 line-breaking CMs, but only the first choice attacking FBs.

Yeh me too.

I also look forward to seeing Plan c when we have the option of doing both depending on the situation.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Sangria

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16738 on: January 22, 2020, 09:20:30 PM »
Yeh me too.

I also look forward to seeing Plan c when we have the option of doing both depending on the situation.

Plan C can be said to be slight tactical shifts which are possible because we have multi-functional players who can, within a single game, move in, out, forward, back, or whatever else Klopp wants to do. Our all-rounder CMs epitomise that, but Mane and Salah can also play with equal utility anywhere along the front line, Gomez can reinforce the flank as a CB or an RB, etc.

The theory of total football is based on breaking man marking with players moving across the zones and others filling in. We're not playing against man marking, but the basic component of the multi-functional player helps game management by allowing the coach to change tactical emphases depending on the game situation. Mourinho would appreciate the difference between footballing philosophy which the Ajax-Barca school fetishises, and the flexible pragmatism which you could say the Liverpool tradition is.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Frizzo

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16739 on: January 23, 2020, 06:20:41 AM »
Fantastic discussion fellas. Really good read. I'm too daft to add anything constructive so you guys just keep it up please.

Offline Bjornar

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16740 on: January 23, 2020, 07:02:53 AM »
I think what is most important for this team is not what our midfield is doing on the ball but what is happening off it. In that respect, all of our midfielders are very experienced in this system, and all of them are capable of performing their role to a high level. But I do think those that are most positionally aware (Fabinho, Wijnaldum, and Henderson) tend to play the most consistent and are favoured by Klopp.


This is how it looks to me as well, good post.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16741 on: January 23, 2020, 07:49:48 AM »
Jordan Henderson change explained as Liverpool boss Jurgen Klopp vows captain hasn't finished http://a.msn.com/01/en-gb/BBZerVE?ocid=st
"He's trying to get right away from football. I believe he went to Everton"